John Amaechi, "Man in the Middle" Options

[Joe in Philly]

I hate Tim Hardaway, so we're even.

[Illini_fan]

Of course he "apologized" for it later, meaning he apologized for showing his true colors rather than what he actually said. What an ass.

[jay original]

maybe some talented gay dj can make a remix of
timmy's comments like they did for michael richards!


http://perezhilton.com/topics/listen_to_th...ap_20061124.php

[Joe in Philly]

I just heard the radio bit. It's exactly like the transcript in the Outsports story on the home page.

Le Batard: "You know what you are saying there is flatly homophobic? It's bigotry?"
Hardaway: "Well, you know I hate gay people, so I let it be known. I don't like gay people and I don't like to be around gay people. I am homophobic. I don't like it. It shouldn't be in the world or in the United States. So yeah, I don't like it.''

There's no way he can say it was taken out of context. In a response to his prior comment being homophobic, he says that!

He can apologize all he wants. I, for one, WILL NEVER ACCEPT IT. Any possible negative thing that happens to him for the rest of his miserable life, anything that causes him pain and anguish, I will enjoy it. I will celebrate it.

This post has been edited by Joe in Philly: Feb 15 2007, 01:11 AM

[Enigma]

Tim Hardaway is in trouble. His apology is nothing more than his agent or business manager telling him to try and smooth things over before it hits the mainstream media, but by tomorrow afternoon this will be generating talk around North America.

Not everyone is going to accept homosexuality, but to be so hateful and hurtful towards homosexuals is uncalled for and completely inappropriate especially considering his status.

I sincerely hope that the ABA severely punishes him for his words.

[fenwayguy]

You know what? Good on Hardaway for spewing his hate and showing his true colors to the world.

It would be GREAT if Amaechi came out ready to kick ass, call these ignorant, judgmental men on their bullshit, make some noise, become notorious, even; meanwhile challenge other gay athletes to "man up" -- and support them when they do.

Now this is what I'm talking about -- and the fool even managed to kick his own ass right on down the road!

[boomer400]

What a douchebag.

[canmark]

Hardaway's comments are flabbergasting, but, as Amaechi says, at least they're honest. All those media people saying gay is no big deal--hello, how many people saying they hate you because of what you are and that you "shouldn't be in the world or in the United States?"

On the plus side, it's great that the media is now featuring out athletes on a regular basis, such as the lesbian college hoops player mentioned in today's Jock Talk, and the male college football player in the Granderson column.

[buccoman]

Did anyone else catch clips of Tim Hardaway on some radio call-in show? "I hate gays. I'm homophobic. That shouldn't go on in this country." Classy.

He always struck me as kind of gay himself.

Me too, and his comments just reconfirm to me that he has a lot of latent homosexuality going on....

[Frank Bruno]

I don't care that Tim Hardaway hates fags. I don't know him, so I won't call him names too, and I am sort of used to the I-hate-fags thing by now, so hey, knock yourself out.

What makes me sort of puzzled is that Hardaway is black, and black people in this country shouldn't take other groups' fights for simple recognition and freedom so shallowly. Specifically, he has a whole lot to thank gays for (peace out, Bayard Rustin), since a revolution had to be fought in this country simply so he could walk down the street (relatively) unafraid of being degraded in the same manner he now degrades others. You would think he would be a little more sensitive (and educated, but hey that's another story) about gay people and their desire to be treated like ordinary human beings because I sort of expect that from a black man in America in 2007. Or maybe the misplaced anger evident in black homophobia isn't talked about enough these days. (Someone write a book.)

Black homophobia isn't like other homophobia. It comes with an extra dose of hypocrisy and intolerance. A black person making homophobic comments is like a vegetarian wearing a f*cking fur coat.

[mdterp01]

I totally co-sign on your comments Frank. I have thought about writing a book myself for the past couple years now because most people, including black people do not understand that black homophobia, black hypermasculinity, and the US black churches are all related to the history of black slavery. Oh yes....it goes that deep. Now one might say, "but its 2007 so how could slavery carry on what blacks believe in today" Oh but it does. Take black studies course and you would understand a little better. The vilification of black homophobia implies more than a failure to accept postcolonial politics. It's a failure to recognize the hundreds of years of years of slavery, starting with the sodomy of black male slaves by their white owners as a means of humiliation. Slavery laid the foundations of homophobia, and its legacy is still unmistakable in the precarious, overexaggerated masculinity of many black men in America.


The following is an excerpt from a website called Pam's House Blend in which she divides the sentiment of blacks against gay rights into two categories.

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"The increasingly hostile reception gay rights is receiving in the Civil Rights Movement™ is odd. My reference there by using the ™ is obviously making a point. I do think that the black community has co-opted this term to mean "black civil rights," since the movement itself is still a living memory for those that experienced Jim Crow.

There is no comparison to slavery and the impact that it has had on this country for good (the economic power and wealth of this country was built on the backs of the slaves) or ill (the fact these human beings were bought and sold and treated like animals).

I see two distinct groups in the black community that seem to be angry about gay rights, with some people in both camps...

1) The Civil Rights Movement™ people: These folks only see things in terms of what I described above -- that the black/slavery struggle is unique and that gays have no business trying to appropriate the frame of that movement. Gays were never slaves, imported from another continent, etc. Gays, they believe, can pass and choose not to reveal their identity (those that are transgendered are usually overlooked in this argument). Skin color is immutable. I think these folks can be won over with persuasive framing of constitutionality and human rights with the issue. They can be shown that this not a zero-sum game. Gays seeking the right to not be fired in a job or to marry because of who they love does not diminish the struggle of the Rights Movement™ of the 1950s/60s.

2) the Hellfire-Brimstone religious blacks: these folks, like the Woodson/Upper Room homophobes, just see gays as sinful and undeserving of any rights at all. These people cannot be reasoned with, and are, in fact, dangerous to the black community. This is the crowd that scares black men, in particular, who are gay, into going on the DL, secretly sleeping with men on the sly and maintaining sexual/marital relationships with women, potentially spreading HIV. As far as these church folks are concerned, being gay is a white thing. If you're black, religious (in the traditional church) and gay, it's extremely hard to come out to family and church members without fear of reprisal and isolation from the community. I think these people represent fertile ground for recruitment by the Right."
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Hell, the issue of light skinned blacks and dark skinned blacks that still exists today has its roots in slavery (i.e. lighter skinned blacks being "house niggers" and darker skinned blacks being "field niggers") When the predominantly black sorority Alpha Kappa Alpha began it used what is known as a brown paper bag test. Basically, if you were darker than the brown paper bag you were not considered for membership. Those things are all tied to the history of slavery.

Ever heard of Willie Lynch? He was a white slave owner who repeatedly gave a speech on how he could control slaves for 300 years. Here is that speech.

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"Gentlemen, you know what your problems are: I do not need to elaborate. I am not here to enumerate your problems, I am here to introduce you to a method of solving them. In my bag here, I have a fool proof method for controlling your Black slaves. I guarantee everyone of you that if installed correctly it will control the slaves for at least 300 hundred years. My method is simple. Any member of your family or your oversee r can use it.

I have outlined a number of differences among the slaves: and I take these differences and make them bigger. I use fear, distrust, and envy for control purposes. These methods have worked on my modest plantation in the West Indies and it will work throughout the South. Take this simple little list of differences, and think about them.

On top of my list is "Age", but it is there only because it starts with an "A": the second is "Color" or shade, there is intelligence, size, sex, size of plantations, status on plantation, attitude of owners, whether the slave live in the valley, on hill, East, West, North, South, have fine hair, coarse hair, or is tall or short. Now that you have a list of differences. I shall give you an outline of action-but before that I shall assure you that distrust is stronger than trust and envy is stronger than adulation, respect, or admiration.

The Black slave after receiving this indoctrination shall carry on and will become self re-fueling and self generating for hundreds of years, maybe thousands. Don't forget you must pitch the old Black male vs. the young Black male, and the young Black male against the old Black male. You must use the dark skin slaves vs. the light skin slaves and the light skin slaves vs. the dark skin slaves. You must use the female vs. the male, and the male vs. the female. You must also have your white servants and overseers distrust all Blacks, but it is necessary that your slaves trust and depend on us. They must love, respect and trust only us.

Gentlemen, these kits are your keys to control. Use them. Have your wives and children use them, never miss an opportunity. If used intensely for one year, the slaves themselves will remain perpetually distrustful. Thank you, gentlemen."
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That is how deep the legacy of slavery goes in this country and how much those kinds of things still exist today. How blacks get out of still being mental slaves is something many blacks who feel this way haven't been able to do. But it is very intolerant in the black community and I am shocked at how many numbers of young black children, male and female, make anti-gay statements. But, I have dealt with these things all my life. I've had darker skinned black guys simply state to me that they don't like me because I'm light skinned. I continue to hear from other black people "oooo you have good hair" (i.e. fine hair). Whatever...good hair is when you HAVE IT!!! When you start losing it...then its bad. But, thats the mentality that still exists in my black Americans. Needless to say, the Willie Lynch "theory" as its referred to, is still working far too well. I have always felt the way you do Frank. How could blacks be against individuals fighting for their own civil rights when in reality we are still fighting for full equality? Its mind boggling but the power and influence that the black church and the legacy of slavery has on this subject is incredibly devastating. Its very deep and has many layers.

[Frank Bruno]

Let's try something. Italics mine:

Q: How do you deal with a black teammate?

A: First of all, I wouldn't want him on my team. And second of all, if he was on my team, I would really distance myself from him because, uh, I don't think that is right. I don't think he should be in the locker room while we are in the locker room. But stuff like that is going on and there's a lot of other people I hear that are like that and still black and don't want to be outward about it, but you know I just leave that alone.

Q: You know what you are saying is racist?

A: You know, I hate black people, so I let it be known. I don't like black people and I don't like to be around black people. I am racist. I don't like it. It shouldn't be in the world or in the United States.

Victims of lynch mobs, more often than not, had challenged or unintentionally violated the prevailing norms of white supremacy, and these ranged from serious offenses (in the eyes of whites) to the trivial. Charles Jones, a youth from Grovetown, Georgia, was lynched by 150 whites for stealing a pair of shoes and "talking big". Henry Sykes was lynched in Oklona, Mississippi, for calling up white girls on the telephone and annoying them. A Texas youth was jailed for writing an insulting letter to a young white woman; a mob broke into the jail and shot him to death. Jeff Brown accidentally brushed against a white girl as he was running to catch a train; a mob hanged him for "attempted rape". For their "utter worthlessness", John Shaw and George Call, two eitghteen-year-old youths from Lynchburg, Virginia, were shot to death after the mob's attempt to hang them failed. A South Carolina editor acknowledged in 1917 that some three-fourths of lynchings were for "trivial offenses" and sometimes entirely innocent men were "butchered". All too often, black Southerners, innocent of any crime or offense, were victims of lynchings or burnings because they were black and in the wrong place at the wrong time. - Leon Litwack, Trouble In Mind

I quote Litwack here because I firmly believe that when black people in America are reacting to the ugliness of racism, it isn't out of remembrance of the horrors of slavery, but the greater horrors of the Jim Crow era, which were far more violent and covert, and that I firmly believe that gay America (if there ever could be such a thing) is mired in a similar era now, perpetrated in part by comments such as Hardaway's. I don't mean to trivialize the horrors of Jim Crow for blacks, but I see remarkable parallels between Emmitt Till's story and Matthew Shepard's. Hardaway should take a black history course as you suggested, he would have alot to learn about the true source of the comments he made.

This post has been edited by Frank Bruno: Feb 15 2007, 08:49 AM

[YellaDawg]

It's interesting how on (predominantly white) gay message boards, Black homophobia is discussed ad nauseum. Yet, rarely is the image on the other side of the mirror viewed. Rarely does anyone on these message boards wish to discuss racism in the (predoninantly white) gay community.

Sure, what Hardaway said to the press was f**king stupid, and doubly so because of his celebrity / pro athlete status. But I've heard and seen similar or worse from white gays and lesbians about Blacks, Mexicans, Jews, Asians. Talk about hypocrisy and intolerance!

Maybe that's not talked about enough either? Care to look in your own backyard?

[mdterp01]

::claps:: You better preach brotha!!!! There is deep racism from many gay whites toward gays and lesbians of color. Yet, of all the stories of white gay racism towards gays and lesbians of other colors I have read on other blogs and websites, and experienced myself, I have NEVER never come upon one issue discussing the aforementioned on this site. But, you are absolutely right. No one wants to seem to talk about whats goin on in their own house. Thank you for bringing it up.

[buccoman]

I don't hang around the "gay community" all that much so I can't really say if they are more racist than other white folk. However,I'm not down with the comparison of "gay teammate" to "black teammate." I just get the vibe that when making that analogy, one reveals a sort of racist thinking, because there already ARE hundreds and hundreds of "openly black" players in pro and college sports. The fact that Haradaway is black is the only reason that analogy was used, and I ain't cool with that...

[Frank Bruno]

So pointing out the hypocrisy of black homophobia is racist.

[CPT_Doom]

Living in Washington, DC, which is still far too segregated even today, perhaps I'm more aware of the issues of racism in the gay community (there are bars in DC that, as little as 15 years ago, would demand 3 types of ID from blacks and not from whites), but I don't see the level of racism, whether in the gay community or in the larger country, equivalent to that of Hardaway's bigotry against gays. How many whites actually believe, never mind would say, that blacks are genetically inferior, incapable of leadership, etc. etc.? And IIRC, when Rush made his assinine comments about McNabb, there was a big level of outrage on this board. And let's not even get started on the number of anti-gay black ministers out there, which certainly appears to be a higher percentage than in white churches.

Comparisons between the historical experiences of GLBT people and those of African descent are always useless, because the histories are so different. No, in general, GLBT people did not face forced kindapping and enslavement, but then again, no black person ever woke up in adolescence and found themselves the children of white supremacists either, but plenty of GLBT people, of any ethnicity, have found themselves in families full of bigots.

But getting back to Hardaway, I am glad he was frank, and said what a lot of people likely think, but I don't buy the "apology" for one iota of a second. That was pure PR, and I hope this all backfires on him ten-fold. Apparently he still spends a lot of time in Miami and So. Beach, and therefore is around gay people all the time. I would hope those gays and lesbians he comes in contact with down there treat him with the disdain he deserves. I'd love to see signs in store windows or restaurants stating "We have GLBT employees and customers - Tim, you might want to stay away!" Although that will never happen.

At the same time, the progress in sports that Cyd talked about in his story, although I think he had at least a bit of a rose-colored tint to his glasses, is demonstrated in the reaction to Hardaway - the MSM seems to be covering it as an outrage, and that is good.

[buccoman]

So pointing out the hypocrisy of black homophobia is racist.

Hardaway is a homophobic athlete and I really don't see the relevance of his race to this. It just ain't germane, imho....

[Frank Bruno]

Hardaway is a homophobic athlete and I really don't see the relevance of his race to this. It just ain't germane, imho....

It is incalculable the degree to which hypersensitive people unwilling to look behind the facade of symbolism continue to dominate the public discourse about discrimination. Example: a celebrity says “I gate gay people.” An offended gay man says, “gee, that’s sort of hypocritical. You of all people shouldn’t say that.” Then another gay man comes along and looks at the first gay man and says “that’s racist.” This is precisely why people who resort to such knee-jerk reactions are always their own worst enemy, and the worst enemy of the causes they espouse, and the culture of complaint and concentration on the irrelevance of symbolic accomplishment (i.e. Hardaway’s hollow apology) gets us nowhere. But what surely doesn’t get us anywhere is dividing our own house when ass****s like Hardaway and worse keep pushing our buttons. They sit back and laugh as we bitch-slap each other over bullshit like this.

I find it highly intriguing that Amaechi himself chose not to blast Hardaway, but almost embrace him, as though to say that his initial hatred is itself therapeutic, which is the real lesson of this mess.

the MSM seems to be covering it as an outrage, and that is good

I disagree. SI in fact was covering his apology before they even reported his statement. I wonder if the story would even have legs if he hadn't "apologized".

Jeeez. Can’t a current player just come out now and put this shit to rest once and for all?

This post has been edited by Frank Bruno: Feb 15 2007, 10:54 AM

[UCLAfan]

Isn't it better to have people like Tim Hardaway be open and honest? I think it's best to know if someone is openly hostile than someone who is two-faced about being homophobic. That's just my opinion.

[buccoman]

It is incalculable the degree to which hypersensitive people unwilling to look behind the facade of symbolism continue to dominate the public discourse about discrimination. Example: a celebrity says “I gate gay people.” An offended gay man says, “gee, that’s sort of hypocritical. You of all people shouldn’t say that.” Then another gay man comes along and looks at the first gay man and says “that’s racist.” This is precisely why people who resort to such knee-jerk reactions are always their own worst enemy, and the worst enemy of the causes they espouse, and the culture of complaint and concentration on the irrelevance of symbolic accomplishment (i.e. Hardaway’s hollow apology) gets us nowhere. But what surely doesn’t get us anywhere is dividing our own house when ass****s like Hardaway and worse keep pushing our buttons. They sit back and laugh as we bitch-slap each other over bullshit like this.

Bro', you introduced race into the topic, so I replied . I respect your take on it but we obviously still need a dialogue/discourse on race, just like we need one on homophobia.

This post has been edited by buccoman: Feb 15 2007, 11:26 AM

[YellaDawg]

How many whites actually believe, never mind would say, that blacks are genetically inferior, incapable of leadership, etc. etc.?

You're kidding, right? PLEASE tell me you're kidding with that question?

[Bryan]

Now we're cookin....

mdterp: Thanks for mentioning Bayard Rustin. If anyone here hasn't seen "Brother Outsider" - find a copy immediately or better yet order through Amazon. It's just brilliant. And while you're at it: Get "Brother to Brother" - A drama that looks back on the Harlem Renaissance from the perspective of an elderly, black writer who meets a gay teenager in a New York homeless shelter. It's remarkable.

I'm glad that Hardaway's comments are seeing the light of day. Because this is the story...Amaechi's coming out is the trigger to exposing the real issue: the continued ignorance that rages through all demographics all over the world. However unbelievably stupid and ridiculous, Hardaway's comments will keep the topic on the front burner where it hopefully will remain until the uneducated realize that gay people, black/white or otherwise, are just as human and worthy as any heterosexual.

Would Hardaway's ignorance been brought forward if not for Amaechi's coming out?

With all due respect to everyone's opinions and personal experiences, I think it's important to stay focused on the specific issue of Ignorance whether that manifests in racism, homophobia, or any other form. Whoever the players are, the core issue is the same: Ignorance of another's experience or reality. We think the "other guy" is so very different than us. We may have radically different experiences but we share the biggest similarity of all: we're human. We're highly flawed (well, except for a few of us.. ) and we're still trying to figure all this shit out.

This post has been edited by Bryan: Feb 15 2007, 12:50 PM

[Frank Bruno]

Bro', you introduced race into the topic, so I replied .

Yes, and I stand by my original post (170). I think it is incredibly sad that he doesn't himself see the true irony of his views in light of the Bayard Rustins of the world, and I knew that posting such would likely generate the types of responses here. I don't back down from it at all and I am prepared to defend myself against claims of racism comfortably and in ways that don't include white liberal guilt about how many black friends I have and how many f**king CDs I own. I am just as astonished that a black man is a homophobe as I would be if a gay man (of any color) was a racist, and I am prepared to call all of them on it.

I respect your take on it but we obviously still need a dialogue/discourse on race, just like we need one on homophobia

As Bryan says here, I don't think the two are necessarily isolated from each other - but again, I'm thankful that we are talking about something more important than Britney Spears' uterus scan, Peyton Manning's ass, and a f**king Snickers advertisment. Keep it up... I am always listening.

And talking too, I know, I can do alot of that... but I'm listening.

[heelsfanmd]

My first time ever posting here, and my thoughts pretty much reflect things that have already been said.


I think on one hand, his comments are clearly unacceptable, and the fact that he'll ever appear on television again indicates the continuing double standard (i.e. if someone had said, "I hate black people."). But on the other hand, it's a good reminder of the rampant homophobia in sports, and how much further we still have to go. It's not just Tim Hardaway who feels that way.

[jay original]

As recently as last summer, a story about blacks being less intelligent was featured in the Wall Street Journal:
http://users1.wsj.com/lmda/do/checkLogin?m...%3Femailf%3Dyes

And I do recall while in college having to have "gentlemen's debates" in classrooms over the validity of
The Bell Curve. I think most people in their hearts buy into the inferiority of black skin, even black people.
Hence the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans hindering poor, black, people most.

I think Isaiah Washington brings this question up as well. One of my best friends is a straight black woman and she signed the petition to get Washington fired on the principle that homophobia is just wrong. One of my black gay friends said that Washington dropping an f-bomb on a white gay dude who probably discriminates against people of color has no bearing on his life. Rosie is another good example, she attacks Kelly Ripa for homophobia but then claims "she didn't know and will probably make future mistakes" when she is called out for her racial slurs on The View. It's a hard call to make. I kind of feel like Bill Cosby though, in terms of community, black people need to get it together. More black people die from not wearing seat belts and drive by shootings than from police brutality. It all stems from hating blackness, but I'm kind of tired of having the conversation about what white people are or are not going to do. The validation many people seek is just never going to come. We have African slave owners/First Nation genocide enactors on our currency.

Maryland Super Hotness, a good book to riff off of might be: Sexuality and the Black Church by Kelly Brown Douglas. It deals with the issues of slavery, rape, sexuality, shame, AIDS, homophobia, etc.

As for Hardaway, we all know that the most homophobic people are most likely to want to be on their knees praying to the penis. Gay bashers are closet gays. You hate what you most desire. Love you Timmy!

[Bryan]

Perhaps more often though, we hate what we don't understand or simply can't handle or have been TAUGHT and conditioned to hate.

I think it's important also to point out that we don't defeat or erase ignorance (pertaining to this discussion) or heal extreme psychotic states (radical islam and other radical religious behavior) through force or violence. We might control it that way but we don't really change it. In this world, it seems we often counter ignorance with just more ignorance compounding the whole damn problem: See: Israel

This post has been edited by Bryan: Feb 15 2007, 01:45 PM

[Frank Bruno]

And if reading all this isn't enough for you, you can always join in the highly enlightened discussion about this going on over at ESPN in their ESPN blog... just a little reminder of what we are up against.

[buccoman]

Yes, and I stand by my original post (170). I think it is incredibly sad that he doesn't himself see the true irony of his views in light of the Bayard Rustins of the world, and I knew that posting such would likely generate the types of responses here. I don't back down from it at all and I am prepared to defend myself against claims of racism comfortably and in ways that don't include white liberal guilt about how many black friends I have and how many f**king CDs I own. I am just as astonished that a black man is a homophobe as I would be if a gay man (of any color) was a racist, and I am prepared to call all of them on it.
As Bryan says here, I don't think the two are necessarily isolated from each other - but again, I'm thankful that we are talking about something more important than Britney Spears' uterus scan, Peyton Manning's ass, and a f**king Snickers advertisment. Keep it up... I am always listening.

And talking too, I know, I can do alot of that... but I'm listening.

The thing that bothers me, is the inherent belief that black homophopbia is categorically more unjustifiable, given the "history of black people," which just fogs the issue of homophobia unnecessarily.

[Frank Bruno]

In what way?