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QUOTE(YellaDawg @ Feb 8 2007, 03:11 PM)
First of all, that's a made up word by that show and not even a recognized condition.
Secondly, if he -- the show's creator-- REALLY liked femmes so much, then why does he always pair them with really hot MASCULINE men? Why not have two queens together? It's obvious he was projecting his own fantasies onto the screen by placing the kinds of men HE desires (attractive, masculine black men) in prusuit of men like him (fem queens).
And of course the women viewers much prefer it that way, because seeing two masculine gay men together makes them very uncomfortable and upsets their apple cart.
yella...baby...you know it's all love from the jay. it is a made up word but offered by keith hamilton cobb!
true, but that' s like asking gay men in hollywood to refuse to have a casting couch based on being "more ethical than straight men"...okay, i see your point. in terms of contradictions/ethics i have never met tyler but i do know don and if tyler is in the same boat then i hope he doesn't burn in hell.
i disagree with you on this point in part because most of my black women friends get off on black gay porn as well - enrique cruz's 'aprende' being known in our circles as "the holy grail." when polled they say that they like the way men handle one another and the overall aggressiveness which differs from straight porn.
i think from a writing perspective conflict is always good so having polar opposites be in relationships or attracted to one another is a way to distinguish characters from each other and make it interesting. we've had maddie and dave, sam and diane, whitley and dewayne, etc. now we have noah and wade, let's embrace our supercouple heritage people!
This post has been edited by jay original: Feb 8 2007, 11:45 AM
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QUOTE(YellaDawg @ Feb 8 2007, 03:11 PM)
First of all, that's a made up word by that show and not even a recognized condition.
Secondly, if he -- the show's creator-- REALLY liked femmes so much, then why does he always pair them with really hot MASCULINE men? Why not have two queens together? It's obvious he was projecting his own fantasies onto the screen by placing the kinds of men HE desires (attractive, masculine black men) in prusuit of men like him (fem queens).
And of course the women viewers much prefer it that way, because seeing two masculine gay men together makes them very uncomfortable and upsets their apple cart.
Actually, effemephobia has been a topic of discussion among LGBT and queer theory scholars for years. I remember witness a notable Black sgl scholar "come out" as a "femme man" at a scholarly conference over a decade ago. People applauded him, because he did what so many refuse to do. He also made a point of acknowledging 1) his debt to Black lesbians, like Cheryl Clarke and Audre Lorde, and 2) his debt to femme men, Black, Latino, White and otherwise, who were and remain at the forefront of the fight for equal rights. It ain't the DL thugs who pushed the lawsuit that led to Lawrence v. Texas, so that every in every state and US territory could f*ck in the privacy of her or his home (or any other private space) without being arrested, right?
I mean, you do appear to have a serious issue with effeminate/femme men. So that's fine. My experience has been that most out gay men, whether they realize it, acknowledge it or not, have some effeminate tendencies. Most, but not all. Some men who think of themselves as "butch" are really only the butchest things in their mind. But again, I'm saying most, NOT ALL. To me, an attractive man is an attractive man. I've never gotten hung up on effeminacy, but I know many men do. But if avoiding men with ANY effeminate traits were a criterion, I think many gay men would have to be alone and celibate, neither of which, obviously, is the case....
Speaking of which, Laveranues has sugar in his tank. He's not the only one in the NFL. I mean, do you think TO, with those hissing S's and all his life drama, is 100% straight? Michael Strahan, who basically lisps? Then look at the NBA. Every time Chauncey Billops opens his mouth, a pearl choker falls out. The same is true of Richard Jefferson, of Doug Christie, of any number of other players. The same is true of a good portion of the top Black male track and field athletes. Few of them strike me as much butcher than Carl Lewis, who was closeted for years, and then semi-outed himself on a TV show a few years ago. No MLB players come to mind right off the bat, but I'm sure if I were to think of it, some would be clockable. And I bet you every single one of these men, especially if they're straight, thinks of himself as "masculine." Hell, Carl Lewis had a party for himself last year, was it, with at least one female stripper! (Uh huh.)
Point taken about Tyler Perry. I've never met the man. I assume he doesn't want to surrender his millions (which keep growing) of fans and dollars, and he wouldn't be the first one. Who constitutes Perry's fan base? Deluded Black Christians (and other Christians of other races--because more than Black people flocked to see that minstrel show starring Shemar Moore and Kimberly Elise, both of whom still did their acting best.) Does any straight Black man NOT think the man is gay or bi? I don't know any, but then, I'm not going to extrapolate for all Black people based on my experience.
I also don't buy that viewers prefer seeing two effeminate men together; maybe straight MALE viewers, but as jay says, a number of straight Black women (esp. the ones I know) really like seeing two masculine-acting/performing men together in sex scenes, as in "Aprendé" (or some of those Tiger Tyson or Bobby Blake/Flexx Deon Blake extravaganzas, etc.). I never did understand the Noah character, which seems to hover between extreme effeminacy and transgenderism, but the actor himself is quite a beauty. He just needs to learn how to act. Speaking of which, I must add that nearly every straight and gay Black woman I know had positive things to say about "Brokeback Mountain," which paired two masculine-acting White dudes together, while most of the straight brothas I know refused to see it or admitted to being VERY uncomfortable while watching it. I said to one, what's the big deal? I watch straight people screw all the time on the screen; it doesn't bother me, and some times it's hot (Wesley Snipes and Angela Bassett in "Waiting to Exhale," to give one example), so what is YOUR deal? What are you afraid of? The response, at least in one case, was silence and a changed subject!
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First of all, I'm glad to be having an interesting discussion about topics that affect the Black gay community here. This doesn't happen too often!
QUOTE(fantomas @ Feb 8 2007, 07:10 PM)
Actually, effemephobia has been a topic of discussion among LGBT and queer theory scholars for years.
Sure, the theory of it has been discussed. But this name that Patrik Ian-Polk is labelling it -- "Effemophobia" -- is something HE made up. And it's a false label. On the show, the Quincy character states that it is "the false notion that effeminate gay men are not sexually desirable". Um, that's NOT a "phobia". A correct definition of that word would be "fear or effeminate men".
Secondly, why do you even have to bring up "DL thugs" in this conversation? It's not like the only two kinds of gay men are fem queens like Noah in one corner and DL thugs in the next. The spectrum is FAR wider than that.
QUOTE
I mean, you do appear to have a serious issue with effeminate/femme men. So that's fine. My experience has been that most out gay men, whether they realize it, acknowledge it or not, have some effeminate tendencies. Most, but not all. Some men who think of themselves as "butch" are really only the butchest things in their mind. But again, I'm saying most, NOT ALL. To me, an attractive man is an attractive man. I've never gotten hung up on effeminacy, but I know many men do. But if avoiding men with ANY effeminate traits were a criterion, I think many gay men would have to be alone and celibate, neither of which, obviously, is the case....
In general, I'm NOT sexually or physically attracted to men who I consider femme. Does that mean that I have a "problem" with them or a "phobia" of them? Hmm... I also am not attracted to a LOT of things. Don't like skinny guys, obese guys, guys who look too young, pretentious snobs, not into Caucasians, not attracted to (most) women. A lack of attraction or disinterest in a certain type doesn't mean you have a fear or a hate for that type. It's just you like what you like. But it's really disingenuous to pretend that effeminate men are just SO desired by all these masculine, muscular guys. If I had to do a scientific survey, I'd say that maybe less than 5% of the men in our community prefer more effeminate guys (and that includes the femmes themselves). At the most 10%. One of my best friends -- who is VERY effeminate, nice looking and in a long-term relationship with a masculine man -- just corrected me on this. He'd say in his own experience it is even less than 5%.
QUOTE
Speaking of which, Laveranues has sugar in his tank. He's not the only one in the NFL. I mean, do you think TO, with those hissing S's and all his life drama, is 100% straight? Michael Strahan, who basically lisps? Then look at the NBA. Every time Chauncey Billops opens his mouth, a pearl choker falls out. The same is true of Richard Jefferson, of Doug Christie, of any number of other players. The same is true of a good portion of the top Black male track and field athletes. Few of them strike me as much butcher than Carl Lewis, who was closeted for years, and then semi-outed himself on a TV show a few years ago. No MLB players come to mind right off the bat, but I'm sure if I were to think of it, some would be clockable. And I bet you every single one of these men, especially if they're straight, thinks of himself as "masculine." Hell, Carl Lewis had a party for himself last year, was it, with at least one female stripper! (Uh huh.)
Fantomas, maybe you have read some of my posts here over the years. I come from a college (NCAA Div 1) and pro sports family background. So I'm well aware of many of the kinds of athletes you did or did not mention. Carl Lewis -- who I have NEVER found attractive AT ALL -- tried to push up on me at a few parties -- 100% gay parties -- a few years back. He's also one of the psuedonymed characaters in that horrid book by MW Moore based on his real life experiences. Remember that autobiography Carl wrote where he claimed that they gay rumours were started by some jealous girl he rejected? OK, why do you have me spilling all this tea? It doesn't matter, it's so old now, it's stale. Anyway, there are many other track athletes I'd maim my grandma to sleep with -- but Carla was NEVER one of them.
QUOTE
Point taken about Tyler Perry. I've never met the man. I assume he doesn't want to surrender his millions (which keep growing) of fans and dollars, and he wouldn't be the first one. Who constitutes Perry's fan base? Deluded Black Christians (and other Christians of other races--because more than Black people flocked to see that minstrel show starring Shemar Moore and Kimberly Elise, both of whom still did their acting best.) Does any straight Black man NOT think the man is gay or bi? I don't know any, but then, I'm not going to extrapolate for all Black people based on my experience.
But when he is taking money from "good Christian" Black people wth one hand (especially those who want gays to go away or be silent or just to DIE), and in the other hand, he's jacking his dick off to gay Black men, he NEEDS to be called out for his hypocrisy. I feel that no one should be outed without their permission UNLESS they are supporting those who are doing damage and creating hypocrisy with their religious or political power. Miss Perry is one of them. And I predict a BIG fall for him, unless he pulls an Elton John sometime soon and just comes way out of the closet.
QUOTE
I also don't buy that viewers prefer seeing two effeminate men together; maybe straight MALE viewers, but as jay says, a number of straight Black women (esp. the ones I know) really like seeing two masculine-acting/performing men together in sex scenes, as in "Aprendé" (or some of those Tiger Tyson or Bobby Blake/Flexx Deon Blake extravaganzas, etc.). I never did understand the Noah character, which seems to hover between extreme effeminacy and transgenderism, but the actor himself is quite a beauty. He just needs to learn how to act. Speaking of which, I must add that nearly every straight and gay Black woman I know had positive things to say about "Brokeback Mountain," which paired two masculine-acting White dudes together, while most of the straight brothas I know refused to see it or admitted to being VERY uncomfortable while watching it. I said to one, what's the big deal? I watch straight people screw all the time on the screen; it doesn't bother me, and some times it's hot (Wesley Snipes and Angela Bassett in "Waiting to Exhale," to give one example), so what is YOUR deal? What are you afraid of? The response, at least in one case, was silence and a changed subject!
I never said that (Black) viewers "prefer seeing two effeminate men together"; actually I stated that they prefer to NOT see the masculine gay (Black) man with another masculine gay (Black) man, whether it is two fems or one fem with a masculine man. And of course Black women are comfortable with "Brokeback" , it's about two White men. If that would have been two masculine Black gay men, and it would have been something like "Brokeback Boulevard" based in South Central LA, starring say Tyrese and Hill Harper, Black women would have LOST THEIR GODDAMN MINDS.
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QUOTE(jay original @ Feb 8 2007, 11:43 AM)
i disagree with you on this point in part because most of my black women friends get off on black gay porn as well - enrique cruz's 'aprende' being known in our circles as "the holy grail." when polled they say that they like the way men handle one another and the overall aggressiveness which differs from straight porn.
I just had to comment that yes....Aprende is the holy grail. It is one of the flicks I do not lend to anyone. But great discussion going on fellas. It is nice to be able to talk about something with some cultural relevance to me. I see the points everyone is making but Yella Dawg, I think you are generalizing too much. Oh and I don't know many masculine men who use the word "tea" when describing gossip. But maybe I'm generalizing now. I'm just sayin.
This post has been edited by mdterp01: Feb 8 2007, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE(mdterp01 @ Feb 8 2007, 10:22 PM)
Oh and I don't know many masculine men who use the word "tea" when describing gossip. But maybe I'm generalizing now. I'm just sayin.
Right, but aren't you the one who claimed you don't have any effeminate friends anyway? So I can only assume from that comment that none of your friends would even use that phrase to begin with. Since they're all so macho and all.
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QUOTE(YellaDawg @ Feb 8 2007, 06:27 PM)
Right, but aren't you the one who claimed you don't have any effeminate friends anyway? So I can only assume from that comment that none of your friends would even use that phrase to begin with. Since they're all so macho and all.
Actually no...none of them do. I agree with fantomas though that most out gay men do have some effeminate qualities. When I was referring to my friends I meant the lispy, snapping of the fingers, honey child type of friends. Hell, I'm not gonna sit up here and act like I don't have some mannerisms that have had some people raising their eyebrows but I'm talking about men who you can spot across the room in the dark and see that they are gay. But its whatever...I don't want to harp on this subject. No need to get defensive. Its all good brotha. I was trying to make a point that there are varying definitions of what is masculine, what is feminine, and there is a broad spectrum of who we are attracted to and why. However, I will agree that the MAJORITY of masculine men would not be attracted to Alex from Noah's Arc. But, as was said before..there's always the exception to the rule.
This post has been edited by mdterp01: Feb 8 2007, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE(fantomas @ Feb 8 2007, 07:10 PM)
... Laveranues has sugar in his tank. He's not the only one in the NFL. I mean, do you think TO, with those hissing S's and all his life drama, is 100% straight? Michael Strahan, who basically lisps? Then look at the NBA. Every time Chauncey Billops opens his mouth, a pearl choker falls out. The same is true of Richard Jefferson, of Doug Christie, of any number of other players. The same is true of a good portion of the top Black male track and field athletes. Few of them strike me as much butcher than Carl Lewis, who was closeted for years, and then semi-outed himself on a TV show a few years ago.
You putting Chauncey Billups on blast like that (LOL)! I can co-sign all of your suspects listed above, except Chauncey.
QUOTE(fantomas @ Feb 8 2007, 07:10 PM)
No MLB players come to mind right off the bat, but I'm sure if I were to think of it, some would be clockable. And I bet you every single one of these men, especially if they're straight, thinks of himself as "masculine." Hell, Carl Lewis had a party for himself last year, was it, with at least one female stripper! (Uh huh.)
I can immediately think of one MLB player who is suspect: Barry Bonds. I hate to say it, but it is what it is. Be that as it may, I'm rooting for him this season to claim the title of homerun king. Let's just hope that his next ESPN mini-series isn't titled "Countdown to Lockdown" ...
QUOTE(fantomas @ Feb 8 2007, 07:10 PM)
Point taken about Tyler Perry. I've never met the man. I assume he doesn't want to surrender his millions (which keep growing) of fans and dollars, and he wouldn't be the first one. Who constitutes Perry's fan base? Deluded Black Christians (and other Christians of other races--because more than Black people flocked to see that minstrel show starring Shemar Moore and Kimberly Elise, both of whom still did their acting best.) Does any straight Black man NOT think the man is gay or bi? I don't know any, but then, I'm not going to extrapolate for all Black people based on my experience.
Tyler Perry isn't about to come clean about who he is. Doing so would jeopardize his gay blaxploitation movie/theater empire. I'm just wondering why someone hasn't exposed him yet. He must have more than a few shady queens in his past, especially if he was out and about in the ATL and a regular at the drag shows.
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QUOTE(YellaDawg @ Feb 8 2007, 03:38 PM)
In general, I'm NOT sexually or physically attracted to men who I consider femme. Does that mean that I have a "problem" with them or a "phobia" of them? Hmm... I also am not attracted to a LOT of things. Don't like skinny guys, obese guys, guys who look too young, pretentious snobs, not into Caucasians, not attracted to (most) women. A lack of attraction or disinterest in a certain type doesn't mean you have a fear or a hate for that type.
Not being attracted to a certain type is one thing... everyone has different tastes. But at various points throughout this thread, you have made a point of putting down those people that you are not attracted to. I think that is what people are trying to point out to you.
Jets' Laveranues Coles and Tyler Perry, Truth... or just Wikipedia editing?
Feb 8 2007, 11:43 AM
I was trying to make a point that there are varying definitions of what is masculine, what is feminine, and there is a broad spectrum of who we are attracted to and why. However, I will agree that the MAJORITY of masculine men would not be attracted to Alex from Noah's Arc. But, as was said before..there's always the exception to the rule.