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Reports have revealed that Chastity Bono is thinking about a sex change aka sex reassignment. She has not started any regime of male hormones or surgery of any kind but the idea is something she is contemplating. Cher has accepted Chastity's lesbianism but is concerned with this new development. I wish her the best in whatever decision she ultimately makes. Of course no surgery can ever change a woman into a man. Most female to males take male hormones, undergo a double mastectomy and total hysterectomy. Their is no surgery to create an actual penis. Most don't have 'bottom surgery at all. Those that do most often have clitoral release surgery which frees the hormonally grown clitoris. This is insufficent for proper intercourse. Some used to have a intestinal flap placed in the genital region. This was mostly unsuccessful and necrocized. Some female to males have a tissue from the forearm used to construct an artifical member. This too is most often unsuccessful. I know a few transmen and all have stopped short of 'bottom surgery'.
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The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men. Alice Walker
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Porn writer Pat Califia of MACHO SLUTS fame is now Patrick Califia. He has had a double mastectomy and hysterectomy and on male hormones. No phalloplasty or clitoral release has been done. He is a lover with another transman who has not yet been altered. Califia's transman lover has all of his/her female parts and recently gave birth to a baby boy born via sperm donation. Califia's lover had to stop male hormones because they induced terrible migraines. The hormones were out of his/her system before the pregnancy.
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The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men. Alice Walker
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This news begs the question, at least to me, of the relationship between FTM transsexualism, gender identification and sex reassignment, and lesbianism.
I remember watching that show "Transnation"--was that the name--about several younger transmen who'd started out calling themselves lesbians, but then decided that in fact, they were men and were living as men--some at the all-female (at least in terms of sex, not gender) Smith College. I later heard that there was real tension around a film made by a lesbian about FTMs; supposedly she was suggesting that by becoming men they were were buying into patriarchy and male power relations, at least that's how I think it was framed.
How do lesbians on this board feel about the rise in FTMs? Are there tensions between male-gendered FTMs and butch lesbians? What are the right terms even to talk about all of this? If any lesbians/gay women are on the board, please do air your thoughts on this.
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QUOTE(Elemental @ Sep 18 2007, 02:32 PM)
Of course no surgery can ever change a woman into a man.
ohmy. You don't understand transexualism at all. People who go through the surgery already believe they are the other sex. And what they feel about themselves is completely valid. No body parts make a person a man or a woman! Do you really think that women or men have sex change surgery because it makes them into the other sex? They don't need surgery to tell them that! They just want mistaken body parts adjusted.
QUOTE(fantomas @ Sep 23 2007, 01:43 AM)
This news begs the question, at least to me, of the relationship between FTM transsexualism, gender identification and sex reassignment, and lesbianism.
How do lesbians on this board feel about the rise in FTMs? Are there tensions between male-gendered FTMs and butch lesbians? What are the right terms even to talk about all of this? If any lesbians/gay women are on the board, please do air your thoughts on this.
I don't think you'll find a lesbian on this board. But as a gay woman, I can tell you that what I see in my community is that people are accepted for what they say they are. We don't check body parts. However, if it comes to dating, honestly is important, because some people don't want to deal with male genitalia. I have known many people of both sexes who underwent sex changes, for their own peace of mind. They were accepted and embraced and supported. What a trajedy to have improper body parts for what your mind says you are. So why do a double whammy discrimination and ostracize them for their choice to change their outward appearance.
What exactly is meant by male-gendered FTM? Do you mean a FTM with male sexual parts, because the gender is all in one's mind. What I have heard about surgical techniques for the changes are that they have come a long way, and are able to construct reasonable parts that make the people feel a little more like the sex they believe they are internally.
How do gay men feel about what seems to be a much larger number of transgendered and transexual men to women?
QUOTE(fantomas @ Sep 23 2007, 01:43 AM)
I later heard that there was real tension around a film made by a lesbian about FTMs; supposedly she was suggesting that by becoming men they were were buying into patriarchy and male power relations, at least that's how I think it was framed.
This is asinine. Women can be just as powerful as men in this society. Generally, we reject the patriarchy and male power idea and make our own culture.
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QUOTE(HornFan @ Sep 23 2007, 03:54 PM)
I'm going to have to disagree with this statement.
So let me get this clear, you think because someone is born with ovaries, they are a woman?? What about men with big breasts??
Fine to disagree, but talk with any of the millions of transgendered people and they will say differently. They know they are men are women....but for some quirk of biology, they got the wrong body parts.
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Actually, I think the topic is dealing more with va-jay-jays and schlongs as opposed to breasts and ovaries. There are many women who have been forced to remove their breasts and/or ovaries for medical reasons, but that certainly doesn't make them male.
People can be whoever they want to be, but sexual organs still determine gender last I heard. That's not to say a woman can't live as a man and man as a woman, but good luck getting your passport or driver's license to "miss-match" with your sexual organs. Chastity can be whoever she prefers to be and live as that person.
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Millions of transgendered? I question that assertion.
Obviously it's not very pc to question those who 'feel' and 'know' that they're really males born into female bodies. I don't question their right to mutilate themselves through surgery but I do wonder where the root of the confusion lies. Gender confusion seems more emotional than physical but it appears that most want to solve it through physical alteration. Social constructs also seem to play a large part. If you're born into a male body, you're a male. That doesn't mean you can't live your life relating to others from what's called a female perspective. We all know many gay men who behave more like girls than boys - with all due respect. We all have challenges inherent to who we are but altering one's entire sex by cutting off organs and poisoning onself with hormones appears like a great, tragic delusion to me. There has to be a better, easier way to be okay with yourself...
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QUOTE(SanDiego10S @ Sep 23 2007, 03:46 AM)
I don't think you'll find a lesbian on this board.
Just wondering, but what is your issue with "lesbian"? You've critiqued this on several different threads. Most of the gay women I know, and especially the activist ones, call themselves "lesbians." They do not say "gay" women, and may use "queer," but "lesbian" is usually the first choice. So please do enlighten me on this.
QUOTE
But as a gay woman, I can tell you that what I see in my community is that people are accepted for what they say they are. We don't check body parts. However, if it comes to dating, honestly is important, because some people don't want to deal with male genitalia. I have known many people of both sexes who underwent sex changes, for their own peace of mind. They were accepted and embraced and supported. What a trajedy to have improper body parts for what your mind says you are. So why do a double whammy discrimination and ostracize them for their choice to change their outward appearance.
I agree with you here.
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What exactly is meant by male-gendered FTM? Do you mean a FTM with male sexual parts, because the gender is all in one's mind.
Well, not exactly. Gender also depends upon social context and definitions, how one performs it, and so on. So it's a bit more complex. But I do agree that sex is biological, while gender is a construction.
And no, I meant a male-gendered FTM as opposed to a male-gendered gay woman/lesbian who does not consider herself transgender.
QUOTE
How do gay men feel about what seems to be a much larger number of transgendered and transexual men to women?
I can't speak for all gay men (and I know folks who even reject the term "gay" because they find it racist and eurocentric, but that's another issue), but I know some gay men who have no issue with transgendered and transexual MTFs, and some who're conflicted about transsexuals and transgendered people, or even transvestites. I think part of the discomfort and conflict arises because of the misogyny and patriarchy, as well as heteronormativity, that are very much a part of our gay (male) cultures, just as they underpin our larger US culture and society. I personally feel fine about MTFs, people who are gender-f*cks or gender-queers, or people who shift identifications as they see fit.
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This is asinine. Women can be just as powerful as men in this society. Generally, we reject the patriarchy and male power idea and make our own culture.
Okay, but I mention this because this was part of the discussion around this film. Also, have you ever heard/read Monique Wittig? She wrote "The Lesbian Body" and "Les Guérilières," and rejected the category of "woman" altogether, while affirming the idea of the "lesbian."
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QUOTE(SanDiego10S @ Sep 23 2007, 03:46 AM)
ohmy. You don't understand transexualism at all. People who go through the surgery already believe they are the other sex. And what they feel about themselves is completely valid. No body parts make a person a man or a woman! Do you really think that women or men have sex change surgery because it makes them into the other sex? They don't need surgery to tell them that! They just want mistaken body parts adjusted. I don't think you'll find a lesbian on this board. But as a gay woman, I can tell you that what I see in my community is that people are accepted for what they say they are. We don't check body parts. However, if it comes to dating, honestly is important, because some people don't want to deal with male genitalia. I have known many people of both sexes who underwent sex changes, for their own peace of mind. They were accepted and embraced and supported. What a trajedy to have improper body parts for what your mind says you are. So why do a double whammy discrimination and ostracize them for their choice to change their outward appearance.
What exactly is meant by male-gendered FTM? Do you mean a FTM with male sexual parts, because the gender is all in one's mind. What I have heard about surgical techniques for the changes are that they have come a long way, and are able to construct reasonable parts that make the people feel a little more like the sex they believe they are internally.
How do gay men feel about what seems to be a much larger number of transgendered and transexual men to women? This is asinine. Women can be just as powerful as men in this society. Generally, we reject the patriarchy and male power idea and make our own culture.
Not to argue with you as you are totally articulate, but I do understand transsexualism. What I meant was that no surgeon can create a normal penis. Transmen are male in their souls despite having female anatomy. I don't invalidate their feelings at all. I meant that a penis such as that of a biological man's can never be created surgically. Thanks for your great response. I appreciate your sentiments.
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A clitoris enlarged by hormones, an intestinal flap or forearm tissue placed in the perineum may make some transmen happy. But these do not in the least resemble a born male's penis. But if a transman wants these things then more power to them. I hope Chastity is happy with whatever she chooses.
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I logged into this thinking it was current, and now I see that we started talking about it a couple of years ago. Chaz is no longer considering it, she has been transitioning all year. Good for her for being so brave and honest about who she feels she really is.
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There are many things between heaven and earth that I don't understand. The transgender phenomenon is one of them. That said, as long as no one is being hurt by a change in genders I see no reason to voice an opinion or take action against it. One might argue that the person going through the change is hurting him-/herself, but I haven't met enough transgendered people to make that call.
Does anyone on this board have any close transgendered friends, and do any of them regret what they've done?
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QUOTE(Puschkin @ Jun 12 2009, 04:26 PM)
There are many things between heaven and earth that I don't understand. The transgender phenomenon is one of them. That said, as long as no one is being hurt by a change in genders I see no reason to voice an opinion or take action against it. One might argue that the person going through the change is hurting him-/herself, but I haven't met enough transgendered people to make that call.
Does anyone on this board have any close transgendered friends, and do any of them regret what they've done?
yeah I don't understand this phenomenon fully either. But I completely believe people when they say they feel nothing but tremendous relief when they finally get to identify as the other sex.
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Of course there are many transsexuals who regret their surgeries. And many who love the results of surgery. I wish Chaz all the best. From what I have learned in the last few weeks, he intends to have a double mastectomy, hysterectomy but no construction of artificial phallus. He has said that he is happy with the enlarged clit from the large doses of testosterone. Sadly, many transmen get really sick from the testosterone. It can cause acne, high blood preasure, heart disease and high cholosterol/triglycerides. I wish Chaz a good outcome. Whatever is right for him is what matters. The transman Patrick formerly pat califia got really sick from the hormones. Most transmen don't have bottom surgery since it is very primitive compared to male to female surgery.
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QUOTE(Elemental @ Jun 13 2009, 05:25 PM)
Of course there are many transsexuals who regret their surgeries. And many who love the results of surgery. I wish Chaz all the best. From what I have learned in the last few weeks, he intends to have a double mastectomy, hysterectomy but no construction of artificial phallus. He has said that he is happy with the enlarged clit from the large doses of testosterone. Sadly, many transmen get really sick from the testosterone. It can cause acne, high blood preasure, heart disease and high cholosterol/triglycerides. I wish Chaz a good outcome. Whatever is right for him is what matters. The transman Patrick formerly pat califia got really sick from the hormones. Most transmen don't have bottom surgery since it is very primitive compared to male to female surgery.
This is the part that makes this hard to understand. Why would a person subject themselves to pain and illness in order to be identified as the opposite sex? Chaz is already really butch. Always has been. A male hairstyle, clothes, and "I am not a man. Call me Chaz," would be good enough for me. For men, it may be a little more clear, having the external genitalia....getting in the way of sleek outfits. But for W2M, who would know whatcha got down there? I do wish him the best. I am sad that there has been a lot of negative talk about her books now being lies. It ain't easy being gay, trans or whatever.
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Mr. Bono is appearing for his first interview as a man. He will be on tonight's episode of Entertainment Tonight. I wish him all the best.
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The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men. Alice Walker
Chastity Bono contemplating sex change
Sep 18 2007, 09:32 AM
