Well, the Big Cup, the gay coffee house in Chelsea, is closing its doors. Another gay-owned and operated business is disappearing from Chelsea, probably to be replaced by a Pottery Barn or more multimillion dollar condos. It's quite sad, actually. I've had my breakfast there every morning for years, and always loved the welcoming attitude. More importantly, I think it signaled the arrival of the neighborhood as the epicenter of the Manhattan gay community, and it's closing may signal the opposite.

One final cup of coffee

MunsonMan, I couldn't agree more. Video Blitz is gone (where am I going to rent my porn?!), Big Cup is going, what next? Rawhide??!!Rainbow & Stars? The Chelsea that I loved 17 years ago when I moved there seems to be disappearing before my eyes. What can a boy do?? (Bye the way, hope you're doing well!) Mike

JM - Didn't realize you're a Chelsea neighbor. I love this 'hood. I moved here from the Upper West Side specifically because it FELT like a neighborhood. Apartment prices are through the roof, but gays can't afford them anymore. Bendix is gone, 18th & 8th is gone, Different Light is gone, I heard this morning The Roxy may not be able to renew their lease. BTW, have you noticed The Gym now has to card every patron because they've gotten so much flak from all the newcomers who want to protect their "family neighborhood?" Ugh. Now we have a hideous bakery right under my windows where the clietele seems to be all women pushing strollers and talking about nannies and pre-schools. BTW, the best porn is at World of Video on Greenwich Avenue.

Not to hijack the thread, but am I the only who thought this was going to be a post showing Miss Clinton's progression from a young girl with long frizzy hair and braces to a poised and sophisticated jet-setter?

Pat - you beat me to it. Clinton-spawn was the first thing I thought of when I opened this thread.

My god what his happening to NYC? Is there anything gay left in that city? Much to my dismay the famed Gaiety has also closed. No more gay coffee or naked beautiful boys (on stage) in NYC. Tell me, why should I even vist there anymore? Okay, I love New York but these are disappointments for sure.

Hi MM! Or should I say "neighbor!" Live on 16th, teach school in Soho, etc. I'm away for a year, but when I return let's have a drink or dinner with our partners and comisserate on how Chelsea is changing (and not for the better!) Take care of yourself, and if I may say, I'm proud of you for not crossing the street when walking home, and the way you handled your situation. Mike

On the other hand:

Chelsea Piers men's pick-up lacrosse NYC: Manhathan

I lived on on 15th near 8th over ten years ago. I returned recently and realized how Chelsea has lost much of its gay character. But all of Manhattan has changed. The city is constantly evolving. We moved down to Tribeca to get away from all the stoller-pushing, Prada-wearing, power Moms on the Upper East Side. Now they followed us down to Tribeca. There are baby strollers all over the place.

This has been discussed before in a thread about the West Village. This has been going on for several years. Much of the scene has moved up to Hell's Kitchen. There's also more action in the outer boroughs than ever before. Part of it is, IMHO, the level of acceptance and assimilation into the overall society that has been achieved in NYC.

Another aspect to Chelsea is there is a good school there, and once the "gays" (sounds so Will & Grace) came in and fixed up the neighborhood and made it safer, the stroller set soon followed. Same thing in Tribeca. And with real estate prices out of control, you need a dual income to afford anything in those areas.

The NYTimes (Sat or Sun?) from this past weekend had a brief feature about how gay/lesbian/everybody friendly Asheville North Carolina is. With a median home price of $210,000, tho, it's a more than a bit out of my range.

The phenomenon is not limited to Chelsea (but I know NYers think that to be of note, it has to happen on Manhattan island wink ). Look around in most cities' gay neighborhoods and you'll see changes afoot. It's the circle of gay life: gay people spruce up a marginal neighborhood, the restaurants and galleries and coffee shops follow, the funky shops open, the straight women wander through and think it's neat, and from that point on the tide changes for good.

Being a resolutely non-Chelsea type of queer, I think I went in the Big Cup once, and often used it as a punchline about gay conformity. Still, it's bound to be replaced by something less social and utterly consumerist, as NYC continues its march towards becoming the cultural equivalent of Branson, Missouri, and a place where no one making under $100,000 will be able to live (and I'm including the 'other' boroughs).

Viva Brooklyn.

The decline of NYC as a compelling metropolis for gays is nothing short of extraordinary. I find more exciting times in central Pennsylvania where I currently live. The gay epicenter has definitely shifted to places like Denver, LA, even Chicago! I agree with the comments of PennState and Bill W on this topic. NYC is a pale shade of its former, pre-gentrified self.

"Even" Chicago? gee, thanks for the vote of confidence. I was in Boystown Saturday night with my bf, and it is an awesome place, tho probably nowhere near as exciting as central PA. wink

Not to pick nits but, by definition, an epicenter can't move to multiple locations. But I agree with two points you make.

First, there was a time when NYC and SF were the only cities with much gravitational pull for gay folks and that's no longer the case. To that list I'd now add as great gay-friendly cities LA, Chicago, DC, Boston, Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, Dallas, Montreal, Toronto, Philadelphia...

Second, I grew up in the NYC area and left in the early 90's just as the Disneyfication started taking hold. NYC used to be unique, now midtown is essentially an outdoor Mall of America.

To continue with the hijacking of the thread ) along the lines of the former First Daughter....there's two cities in Mass, Clinton and Chelsea (ok, there's more than two....)

It's kinda funny (to me anyway) during the winter, and when the news is announcing school cacellations in alphabetical order....you hear "Chelsea....Clinton...." It've only heard it a few times, but it's phunny.

[ September 06, 2005, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Merloni26 ]

I find the gay scene in NYC to be insufferable -- cliquish, judgmental and solipsistic. I've had so much fun in all other American cities -- and I did not at all mean to slight Chicago - quite the contrary -- I've found Chicago to be a real gem --and all the handsome men who go there from all over the Midwest! I will grant NYC its unrivalled status as cultural capital -- but so much of the luster of the city has been irreparably lost. The city can't even support good bookstores, gay or otherwise.

Something I noticed the last time I was in Chicago was how much fun the "boys" were having in the bars. In NYC, it's almost like everyone is afraid to have fun. Part of it is that the standards are so impossibly high, and anyone who isn't a perfect physical specimen feels left out. But a BIG part of it, IMHO, is the crackdowns that started with Guiliani. It's as if everyone is afraid to have too much fun, or the moral police are going to come in smashing down the door and shut the place down. I moved to NYC 10 years ago, just as this started, and it was amazing the difference in tone nightlife took.

I think it's a good point about other cities now being attractive alternatives for openly gay people... places you wouldn't have thought of living 10 years ago. That does siphon away some of the gay presence in NYC and San Fran. But I also stand by my observations about gays becoming mainstream in most neighborhoods in Manhattan, and several outside Manhattan. There is less of a need for a "gay ghetto." Why trek to the Village or Chelsea, when you can go to your neighborhood gay bar? Plus, there is less of a need for a place to go and "be gay" when it's easier then ever to be out at work, out at home, out in your neighborhood. Hell, you can go home and watch gay TV. And, there is less of a need for a community as you become more assimilated. There may always be some form of "gayborhood," but it won't be to the extent that it has been in the past. Look at the reasons gays flocked to the Castro and West Village... then ask yourself if the issues involved are as relevant today as they were 10, 20, 30 years ago. These 'hoods served a need that is slowly going away. The good new is, this is actually progress. Be careful what you ask for, you may actually get it.

And then, of course, there is the internet. Why go stand in a bar to pick someone up when you can do it online. LOL

With all of that, it's a wonder there's any neighborhood left...

A big article in today's Toronto Star A&E section about the decline of the Church & Wellesley area: Goodbye Gaytown?

Article in today's Globe and Mail (I can't find it on the online edition) about how Toronto's gaybourhood is going the way of Chelsea/West Village, as many straight couples are moving in and prices are moving up. Apparently younger straight people like the convenience and reasonable prices, and many are raising families (it helps that there is a grade school, high school and YMCA all in the area). At the same time it is said that high prices are keeping gay people out and/or gay people don't feel they need to live in the Village any more and can live in any part of the city (or suburbs) and be comfortable. Clubs and bars are closing down, as non gay-specific stores are moving in.

Meanwhile... the Globe also points out the bathouse ad featured on the subway. I saw that ad a couple weeks ago and I was quite surprised: I thought it was for a new fitness club (the headline is "a club with benefits"), but as I scrutinized it I realized it was for the Steamworks bathouse. Well, I suppose many of their customers and potential customers ride the subway, so why not?

So, the question is, if Toronto and New York are no longer the hotspots, where do the single gay people move? I have heard good things about Minneapolis and Philly. Can anyone provide feedback?

Do you need to have a gay village to be a hotspot?
I think the point about NYC and especially Toronto is that its just so easy to be gay and to be out that as a community we dont feel the need to huddle together for protection in a particular neighbourhood. To me Toronto seems like one of the gayest cities in the world, you can see gay couples together in almost all areas and clubs in the city and no one seems the bat an eye. It just seems the be accepted, although we still have our fair share of homophobic ass****s. That being said I do think its sad that the gay villages in major cities are in decline. They made it easier for young men from the hinterland to come to the city and find themselves and realize they weren't alone but maybe the internet has done away with that need as well.

I agree with you about Toronto. My friend and I went in September 2005; she and I were both so amazed how friendly people were. I went on a date with a guy in Eaton Centre, and we didn't receive the disapproving stares like we might have received in Pittsburgh. I also love the fact that most (or all) of your gay bars/establishments are in one area; in Pittsburgh, they are scattered throughout the city, so visitors have a difficult time patronizing said establishments. These are a few reasons why Toronto is on my list of relocation cities for next year.

[EDITED]

I was searching for articles I've read in the LA Times the last few months or so about cities in Calif. The same thing is happening in Silverlake & WeHo here in LA. There was also an article about the Castro area in San Francisco. And this week Laguna Beach can be added to that list.

The only place I see/hear glbt people still moving to is Palm Springs since is still somewhat affordable to buy property there. I envision that if it continues to get more expensive there then that gay mecca will also be history. Personally I don't see anything wrong w/ straights moving in. I believe it's the sign of the times that younger yuppy-types are not threatened by our community. We'll just have to wait & see how this pans out throughout the country.

Basically, it seems that it's a national trend.

Welcome to the real Chelsea...



A six-bedroom family home with 5,048 square feet of space at 53 Tregunter Road in London’s posh Chelsea neighborhood.

Priced at a very reasonable £6 million — or close to $12 million US.

And you thought prices were high in NY.

R

Not much of a yard. Any views? I guess 12 mil just doesn't get what it used to.

Views? There are no views in London, and, yeah, in typical real estate fashion they're saying this house is in Chelsea. It's in Earl's Court. Still 5,000 sq. ft. fairly centrally located in Princess Di's old 'hood...

the Castro is dying nearly as quickly as the one in Cuba

the Castro is nothing more than pseudo-trendy stores and a few decent restaurants and too crowded and too loud bars (I don't drink any more)

I really don't hang out in the city that much-just not worth the effort of crossing the bridge and trying to find a place to park

To me, the most telling sign that the South End (Boston) had reached the topping point was a few years ago when the last gay bookstore in the South End closed and was replaced with a Hingham Savings Bank. For those of you unfamiliar with metro Boston, Hingham is a fairly preppy, exclusive, snobbish town on the South Shore. HSB opened the branch because so many wealthy, straight empty nesters have decamped the burbs and have taken over the gay part of town.

I also forgot to mention San Diego. When I was there last Aug, the Hillcrest area seemed to have lots more heteros walking around, moreso than I had seen previously in my lifetime. The bf & I had a drink at a gay-friendly straight bar on University Ave. The straight male bartenders were nice (in fact, the one that served us was quite hot!). I'm guessing Hillcrest too.

sure they were straight?

it's definitely a cycle of life, but compounded by the growing ease of gays living in "non-gay" neighborhoods. yep, San Diego's Hillcrest is definitely now a trendy area for anyone to go for dinner or shopping. The rents are so high that many of the local gay businesses are closing their doors. Some are relocating to the next neighborhood over, North Park, which is what Hillcrest used to be. An area that still has some sketchy patches where you can still find deals. It's also sort of our artsy neighborhood now where the galleries have gallery walks at night. Yep, that means North Park is already gentrifying.

It's almost like the cycle is speeding up these days.

The upside is what seems to happen is a larger, more gay friendly community remains even if the gay ghetto shifts. But I'm sure with luxury condos, some 'hoods have taken hits in this regard.

Chicago is not immune either. Halsted, in boystown has more strollers than ever. In the same scenario, gay business moved north to Andersonville. Andersonville is still very gay, but you can see the cycle speeding up there as well. Nightclubs have been replaced by condos and existing gay businesses have had to adapt to rules enforced by new neighbors.

It's funny someone mentions Palm Springs. I'd say it and Ft. Lauderdale are possibly two places where the cycle hasn't picked up speed. Maybe it's even frozen a bit. It's no coincidence that both cities have a more visible gay community over the age of 40.

It's an intriguing evolution to monitor. I'm not sure that I'm worried or troubled, but it's interesting to see and experience. Gay culture has always evolved. I'm curious to see what's next.

I guess the bf & I could have offered to buy him a few drinks & then who knows what have transpired or been transformed!

More on the decline of Toronto's gay neighborhood. Toronto Star: Exodus sees Church St. losing its gay village identity Recently, Zelda's, a popular gay restaurant closed and moved to Yonge St. With new condos sprouting up in the area, will there even be a gay ghetto in a few years time? Is that a bad thing? Or do we need a "gayborhood?"

I have torn feelings about this topic. On the one hand I do believe that the disappearance of gayborhoods is progress since that means that a certain sector of the hetero population is quite comfortable around gay people or having their children around gay people. Yet at the same time I do miss being able to go to our own enclave(s) to vacation, eat, party, etc. so... & altho it does exist to some degree it certainly feels like we're losing something. Perhaps a sense of identity or belonging. I don't know exactly the feeling but it certainly is a sense of loss. & w/ loss comes sadness & the feeling of missing "it".

SCTrojan, I agree with you about being torn. But at the same time, it is good that being gay isn't just an identity. It is nice that things are becoming more progressive and people are going to mixed clubs, bars, etc. But at the same time, it is nice to walk into a gay establishment and feel accepted.

It's the age-old dilemma for any minority group: we want to be accepted by the process of assimilation while we want to maintain our separateness simultaneously. We're just like everybody else/we're nothing like anybody else.

I grew up in Michigan, and I've only lived in auto towns, college towns, and a minor major city (Detroit), none of which have distinctly queer neighborhoods. Then two years on a tropical island in the Pacific, and now in the smallsih capitol of Maine, Augusta (18,000+, but that's all). While there's comfort in the numbers that you get in a gay ghetto, I've only been able to be a tourist in them, and I'm not sure that our rights are best served by an abundance of chichi restaurants and stores that sell sex toys. (Of course, I say this while knowing full well that I patronize them when I'm in a gay ghetto.) I'm of mixed feelings too. I like feeling safe, but I also like it when my het friends feel safe with me while we're in the ghetto. It's like a good party: a healthy mix makes for the best conversation.

So do I regret the passing of the gay ghetto? Sure. Well, no. But yeah.

It's so interesting to see this thread revived four years later. The de-fagging of Chelsea has continued. The other night I walked past The Viceroy, one of only two gay restaurants still in business on Eighth Avenue, at 8:00PM. There were only two tables occupied; surely they can't stay in business much longer if that's the volume they're doing at the dinner hour. I've been seriously considering getting rid of my NY place and just staying in Ft. Lauderdale year-round.

Get rid of your NY place? You could always let me live there for cheap rent.

"That'll be $12 mil dollahs please!"

Are other restaurants doing good business? Could it be the economy having an effect?

Another article on the decline of Church St. in Toronto.

The name Il Fornello rings a bell. Did we eat there back in March? Or maybe I went by myself back in 2004.

Yes, that's the place. They have other locations in the city, but the Church St. Il Fornello (which I quite liked, and have taken a few Outsporters there) is now closed. There are so many vacant restaurants/bars/stores on Church St. now it's really quite sad.

I believe the proper term is "Outsports Time Share"

That was awhile ago... in any event, there was no sharing I had in mind. Except maybe with my significant other.

Toronto's gay bookstore, Glad Day, at risk of closing.