Wow. (And yeah, those times were like that.)

And what Jorel said.

When I came out to my parents in my mid 30's my mom asked why I didn't come out when I was young; "we would have gotten you help"; talk about answering your own question....

Kinda random but I found this quote by chance

I kinda like it. What about you guys?

Judy Shepard (Matthew's mom) said something like this when she spoke at UT-Austin last spring. Her mantra was you have to be out every day. It was one of the most moving speeches I have ever heard.

You know, I forgot to put something in here about coming out.

My first gay friends were lesbians and drag queens. The drag queens taught me how to dress and clean up myself and the lesbians taught me to not be afraid of who I am and not care what other people think.

You know, I do miss those eclectic group of friends I had when I first came out. It was great!

How about you guys?

Same here. I still LOVE sports, and the same type of music, and entertainment. My taste in clothes are always changing (I work in retail), but I am still most comfortable lounging around the house in sweats and a sports jersey. I also think my friendships are much stronger now, just because I am very comfortable with myself, and who I've become in ALL areas of my life.

My taste in men have stayed relatively the same: larger build (muscular, but not zero body fat), furry, facial hair, etc...

I'll second that ... friendships are healthier when you're not trying to either hide or force yourself into someone else's mold.

Spartan, if you, or anyone in the Miami / Ft. Lauderdale area are interested, contact me for info on a great volleyball game on Sunday afternoons. Great chance to have fun and socialize.

IMHO It would be better to say "Every gay person should" come out... which is what I think he propably means. I doubt that we all MUST do ANYTHING.

Sometimes being out can be kind of weird. I was on a weekend in NYC and my partner was waiting in the car in a non-parking spot when I went inside to pick up from a bakery. Well, I saw a guy I hadn't seen since high school shopping with another guy, ( I always figured he was gay!). So I said "Hi, BlanK" and he said what are you doing here? - I said "my partner lives here. "I probably should have stopped there but I ended up telling him more info than was necessary about how I was now openly gay. I just figured any straight one else would have said " Oh my wife is in the car - or I'm married now." So I figured no reason not to be honest. I just have to learn to be matter of fact about it. The high school friends wife walked in right then & it turned out the guy with him was the wife's brother so he was not gay after all. But my point was I should have been more matter of fact about "my partner" instead of blabbering - " I'm gay now - etc etc" But I was glad to be honest instead of hiding it like the old days.

Its kind of odd, we both use 'partner' too, even though we are legally domestic partners and married in our church; somehow we have discovered 'husband' just doesn't seem to fit comfortably...

Maybe the language references will change someday.

You are right, sometimes there is a weird balance between what you should say, and what you should leave unsaid... but thank God for the freedom to be Out.

R

We use "partner" too and it's usually followed by "he" if my partner is not with me. Such as: "My partner and I went to the beach this weekend. He really loves the beach."

We use the term "husband" when we really want to make sure the person(s) might think we mean "business partner" if we used the word "partner".

Once you use the term "husband" there is no misunderstanding of what is meant. It has worked out great for us. We just kind of gage the people we are talking with and use the appropriate term when needed.

Yes, thank God for the freedom to be Out!!

When I started this post, when I went home to South Dakota, I would change pronouns to appease my Mom.

Now, it's changed. I think almost everyone I grew up with knows I am gay. Hell, I haven't officially come out to my Dad, but he no longer asks me about dating females.

It was weird being back home and going out to the bars I went to in college. Almost everyone I knew asked me how I was doing and what not and point blank asked me if I have a boyfriend. I told them I didn't and they wondered out loud why.

I never, in a million years, thought I would have conversations about me dating back at home in South Dakota.

I just came out to my regular waitress (Kay) at my favorite straight club. My girl friend and I got there early, so Kay was visiting with us before beginning her shift. Kay asked if my friend and I were a couple. I said, no we're just friends. So my friend was like you should tell her. What... no... it's none of her business. But my friend hates that people have the wrong idea about us. So I told Kay I was gay and she was shocked. She said she would have never guessed. Kay said she loves gay people and gave me a high five. She also asked why I feel the need to hide it. That kind of took me by surprise. I'm not hiding, I'm just not one to put myself out there. Kay was very supportive and thanked me for coming out to her.

Not an unusual response. For many people the fear of how people will react when we come out is much worse than the reality after the fact. The closet is in large part of waste of emotion and energy that could best be used living your life as your true self.

Way to go Aaron!

One thing I worked on in therapy for a year was control. You can't control how people will react to you. You could not be out and they might think you are a closet case. They might like gay people but think your hairstyle or pattern of speech is pretentious. Some people will like you. Some won't. It does take effort I think because rejection can suck, but I posted on the boards about coming out to family last summer and well...it's still a process and some days it feels bad because my family is learning to adjust - like using the phrase "sucker" instead of "c*cksucker". But I am glad I did it because I know that the love I feel with them is real because I am being real with them. Keep at it.

You, sir, have given some wise insight!

What Jay Original and SCTrojan said, even more eloquently. If that were possible.

I just came back from a weekend with my boyfriend on Monhegan Island off the coast of Maine. It's an rtist's colony (Rockwell Kent, the Wyeths), so gay people are sort of a given. :-) We're still in the long dating/getting to know you stage, so we don't use the term partner yet, certainly not husband -- but it was surprising to me how everybody just assumed we were partnered and made no particular deal of it: artists, hoteliers and restauranteurs, families and their kids. Seems that when you treat your relationship as no big deal, otherw follow suit.

Of course, this was Monhegan Island, where the lobstermen go to yoga classes at the island's non-denominational chapel . . .

So I went to watch my best friend's daughter play HS Volleyball the other day. One of her teammates drove home with us. I treated them all to dinner. I heard later, that the teammate asked if I was the mother's boyfriend. The daughter said no, they are friends only because he's gay. The teammate was shocked, not because I'm gay but because I don't appear to be gay. She thought I was very sexy and cool for being gay. Now if that's not a compliment I don't know what is.

I have great pride in the younger generation. If they can be so accepting at a young age, we are all going to be better off.

I always have a great time w/ my niece & her friends, both male & female, when they come over my sister's house. Yes, the new generation is totally cool & accepting. I'm glad you had this experience aaron.

These kids I am in boxing with all know I'm gay and they don't care at all. I AM FLOORED by it. It really makes me happy!

I'm currently an "advisor" on a website for gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered/questioning teenagers. The very first teenager I advised said, "I'm 14, I live in Sioux City IA, I'm pretty sure I'm gay, and I kinda need some help." I steeled myself, ready to give help/advice/support to a poor kid who was no doubt getting teased mercilessly in his school. "What's the problem?" I asked.

"None of the other gay kids in my school want to go out with me," he said.

LXN

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/magazine...?pagewanted=all

If these kids can do it, the grown men and women on this board certainly can as well.

Of course, but it's still a personal decision.

Absolutely, SFTom -- it's still a personal decision. That said, one of the important issues is that not coming by hiding behind the argument based on how people will react is becoming increasingly untenable. If people don't care one way or the other, then arguing that "I can't come out because of how people/co-workers/parent/family/kids will react" rings hollow.

Don't get me wrong: individual circumstances do matter. People still get ostracized for coming out. Or beaten up. Or killed. Thankfully, in the larger scheme of things, those individual circumstances are mattering less and less. And as that happens, staying in the closet becomes more and more a decision that looks silly. Or cowardly. Or both.

I think those problems are still significant, and for guys who don't really identify with the predominant gay political and cultural touchstones, the issue of "coming out" is something of a nonstarter.

Yeah, because it's so much harder for people who don't like drag shows to come out. BS.

The NY Times piece is quite interesting. That 13 and 14 year olds in Oklahoma can come out at school shows how the world is changing, changing for the better. Kids these days--gay and straight ones--are just so cool.

I know, it's politically incorrect to raise the points I did. But I would surmise that they're nonetheless true for many, many gay men. Sometimes you have to deal with the difficult issues to move forward.

I sure don't think they're un-PC. On the contrary, they are very real issues. I live in a largely rural state, and I teach at university. My students have told me some horror stories about growing up lgbtq in small towns. (Fortunately, I hear good stories too.)

Maybe the issue is: coming out to whom? One can certainly come out and have nothing to do with the gay community and its cultural touchstones, whatever they may be. In fact, if you don't live in a big metropolitan area, this may be what you have to do. My point was more coming out means being honest to whomever you need to be: family, straight friends, community, whatever, and as more people treat it as no big deal, the less easy it gets to justify the closet.

SFTom, your point is related but, I would argue, somewhat different: coming out and into a community and culture to which one doesn't relate -- or doesn't want to -- is also an enormous issue for many, many gay men. That makes coming out equally hard, if it means being forced to take on a persona or state of being that just isn't right for you. Been there, did that . . . and didn't like it.

You hit the nail on the head. Thanks, man!

The next month will be very interesting for me.

As some of you know, my partner (CycloneMatt) and I are getting married in July of next year. Naturally I'm inviting my coworkers from school. My coworkers know that I'm gay, but I'm not out as a teacher to my students. Some of the coworkers who we are inviting have kids in the district. Let me say that my district is a smaller, rural district here in Iowa.

At some point in the next few weeks I'll take a meeting with my building principal and our district superintendent to plan my "coming out". Rather than sending out save the date magnets to my coworkers, have the kids see them, and then the word (& rumor) spread that way, I want to be proactive and tell my students on my terms.

Honestly, I don't think a lot of the students are going to have an issue, and the majority of parents will be fine with it as well. I've taught at the school for close to 10 years now and have a very good reputation. But you never know who will take issue with it and try to raise a stink.

I'll keep everyone up to date on how things go.

>>>I think those problems are still significant, and for guys who don't really identify with the predominant gay political and cultural touchstones, the issue of "coming out" is something of a nonstarter.

Meaning...what, exactly? That unless you're a socialist, a Cher devotee, and wear drag on the weekends, there's no reason to come out? I mean, I've got some gay characteristics. I do that weird wrist-flourish when I point at things, and sometimes my laugh kicks up into a giggle with no warning. But I've got a low voice, I mainly listen to rock music, I dress like a slob, I hardly ever go to any "gay-type events" and I've got season tickets to a contact sport. So I don't think many people would tag the word "flamer" on to me. But I've always been out at work. Not because I had to, but because I wanted to.

Coming out doesn't involve putting a rainbow sticker on the car, or adopting a lisp or falsetto, or getting your chest waxed, or going shopping for leather. (It can, but it doesn't have to.) It just means not living the lie anymore. Not playing coy when people asking if you're seeing anybody, or playing the pronoun game ("I've started seeing somebody..."), or insisting that "I don't talk about my personal life". Maybe it's different where you are, but in every job I've ever held, people talk about their personal life. Not as in "I'm a power bottom", but as in "My wife and I saw a movie last night." And if I'm somewhere where "My wife and I saw a movie" is fair game, "my boyfriend and I saw a movie" should be fair game, as well. I'm never "in your face" about any of it, but I'm not going to lie about who I am and who I'm seeing.

No, not everyone should come out immediately. People need to work up to it. And there ARE places where coming out will severely jeopardize the work environment, or put the job at risk altogether. (Although anyone in that job might want to start looking for a better work environment.) But to say "there's no reason to come out" misses the point entirely, methinks.

LXN

I feel I have no reason to come out any further than I have, which is minimal to be honest. There's just no upside for me. I would probably feel differently if I were dating or involved with someone; in fact, it would likely be necessary at that point. But until then, it's sort of a random fact that has nothing to do with anything going on in my life that anyone else needs to know about.

I think the mere fact that every post on this subject is via a website called OUTSPORTS for lgbt people who enjoy sports, etc. proves that the whole issue of forcing yourself into a "drag queen" culture is a bunch of bullcrap. You have a community right here. I pick my friends based on music and sports mostly. And they are mostly straight and I've been out to them since college so for like 10 years. I am godfather to their children and they can't wait for me to get married, when it's legal. I go to gay bars and drag shows when I am in the mood. But I don't do crystal meth, I don't sleep around a lot (anymore ) and I am pretty boring actually. Job. Write. Sports. Chill. So again, this idea that you have to be a certain kind of gay is just an excuse to me. The peer pressure can't be that great because at some level you don't respect the "queens" in the first place because they are queens.

Except that no one needs as excuse, because there's no obligation in the first place.

I have to agree w/ Lex on this subject matter. If I was the quiet, keep to myself type then, yes, prolly nobody would know my personal business. But becuz I'm a social person @ work, the eventual "My wife & I went to the movies last night" or "My girlfriend & I are looking for a new place to live" type of comments come up. Therefore, if I have something to say that is similar, but it involves my bf & I, then I have absolutely no qualms about saying, for ie, "My partner & I went to see the Star Trek film last night." Or I could easily respond to their comments such as, "Wow! my partner & I went through the same thing last year." That always breaks the ice & people realize who I am from a sexual preference perspective. But honestly, I can see people being afraid about coming out to a coworker, especially if you live in a small rural town. & yet, I think that sometimes we may underestimate people about how they're gonna respond to one coming out. If a coworker likes hanging out w/ you, going out to lunch, meeting up for happy hour, or goin to some ball game then I really doubt s/he would have an issue w/ one's sexual preference. Once in a while you do come across someone who's a jerk & narrow-minded. Generally tho, I have found that if someone likes hanging w/ you then usually s/he will have no problem w/ who you like sexually. That's been my experience @ least. Just my 2 cents.

I love you guys. I wish you all knew me personally. Just to see who I am, what makes me tick, etc. etc.

I'm not waving a flag of obligation, just addressing the points I felt were made earlier that it's difficult to "come out" because gay culture sucks and doesn't fit for certain people who don't like Cher, etc. But it's also hard not to look at this from a cultural perspective in the sense that telling people you are sexually attracted to men is still seen as shameful, sinful, and something to hide. I'm not a cheerleader for a political agenda, I'm a cheerleader for every individual who has a same-sex attraction and wants to live their life without being f*cked with and to that end, I do think that seeing other people show courage does make a difference. And the person who it makes the most difference for is you. After telling my extended family (last year mind you), I felt a weight lifted because I wasn't worried about someone in LA seeing me out and gossiping to relatives back home, but I didn't know the weight was there until after the fact. I grew up in a private family where we didn't talk about sex, but people got engaged and married and dated. Participating in my family at a certain point meant that the issue would be addressed in some way. So I did it.

If someone wants to go their entire life and not share who they are with those they care about most, that's their business. I know gay men now in their 60s who will never come out. I know gay men in their 20s who are on their way to the same lifestyle. If you like it, I love it. Just make sure when you are taking your last breath and looking back on your life, that you have no regrets and if you don't, I'll drink to that.

>>>I love you guys. I wish you all knew me personally. Just to see who I am, what makes me tick, etc. etc.

The reason so many of us feel like we can toss advice in your general direction is because we've been there. I went through a lot of the things that I read about in threads like yours, and even forums like this.

"I'm not gay - I just like guys"? Done it.
"Pride parades are counter-productive"? Been there.
"I hate flamers"? Guilty.
"There's no reason to come out"? You betcha.

So to a degree, I DO know you personally. Not intimately, or all the details, but I think I understand generally where you're coming from.

LXN

I agree.

Well, this is a little difficult for me. I never really like to talk about my past. My coming out past actually. So, when I read the Advocate article about I'm from Driftwood web site. I found it fascinating, so I decided to write my coming out story for the site. Nathan, the site owner, loved the story and yesterday, it got published.

So here it is ... my flaws and all for the world to see. I hope you like it!

I'm from Elkton, SD

Nice story, Allen! Your flaws (if that's what they are) are pretty much everybody else's on this board.

That's what I find fascinating about coming out stories. The basic template's in place for all us--that is to say, we all tell the same story--while all the details are site- and person-specific. That is, none of us tell the same story.

Thank you for sharing. That website is sort of addictive . . . now I feel like writing my story.

So it's my birthday and I receive an IM from my former best friend. We were best buds in Jr. high and only recently connected through an online social site.

We get to talking about old times. And what's going on now. He asks if I'm married or have kids. I say no and none. I ask about him. He's single with kids. I get the nerve to come out to him. He surprises me by coming out too.

I'm floored. I had no idea. He tells me he thought I was fine and so wanted to get with me way back when.

We had a major falling out back then, over some miscommunication between our friendship. If only I had been honest, my life could have been so different.

To quote one of my all-time favorite movies, "Steel Magnolias" ...

Aaron, there are still good times to be had.

I'm so happy this has been an awesome birthday for you. You deserve it!

There's only one response aaron!:



Now LIVE 4 2day!

What a nice birthday surprise, Aaron! And I mean you being yourself and telling your jr. high friend about yourself. The rest is icing on the cake!

Now...to hell with this IM stuff. Pick up the phone and give him a ring. Ask him out to dinner. Say that you want a belated celebration of your birthday or you want to catch up face to face. Take it from there! You've reconnected with an old friend. Maybe he and you can take it to another level. Or, if not, you've expanded your network and the two of you may have friends who are right for the both of you!

You have the rest of your life ahead of you! Decide what path you'll go down and enjoy the ride!

You make it sound so easy.

I did text him before I called. Hell, he was at work and maybe busy. And yes, he was in meetings, so we didn't get to meet up.

I left the ball in his court to call me, since I was in town anyways.

My friends have also said to call or text him. I just don't want to seem like a bother or come on too strong.

Smart move! The ball's in his court. Let him make the next move. But certainly jump @ the chance if he asks to get together--don't question if you should or shouldn't (& dress/look hawt more than anything should you guys decide to get together). Quietly be excited but don't let that come out. TAKE.EVERY.STEP.CAUTIOUSLY. & certainly don't come across as needy. Ugh!!! That's the last thing that anyone needs.

Good luck aaron I'm praying!

Your reply, in my dreams: "I'm still fine..."