NAGAAA, which governs most of gay softball in the U.S. and Canada, voted last weekend to move the 2007 Gay Softball World Series to October, putting it in direct conflict with the Gay Super Bowl, forcing athletes to again choose between two championship events.

2007 Gay World Series moves to October

Anyone on here going to be affected by this?

Yes, I'm affected by this, and I'm excited as hell. Playing in Phoenix in August would be hell. The alternate city was Kansas City (a/k/a the second circle of hell). As far as I'm concerned, moving to October in Phoenix was the only sane option, unless you want to see a bunch of athletes collapse from heat-related conditions.

Phoenix does a great job with their annual softball tournament, and I'm sure they'll do a great job with the World Series. I doubt the change in dates will become permanent, although I would prefer something a bit later in the year. Mid-august sucks for most of the NAGAAA cities.

Edited to add: comparing this scheduling conflict to the Gay Games vs. Outgames fiasco is kinda overboard, don't ya think?

As for the northern teams having practicing issues, not an issue here, and we're about as far north as they come. We have a fall league that runs into the first weekend on October every year.

[ February 15, 2006, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Weaselman ]

:mad: Excuse me? - not even close to the second circle.

When it comes to outdoor activites in mid-August, it most certainly is the second circle of hell.

This is GREAT news, no more ball playing in grueling August heat! Now, if only they could have started this in '06 like Ft. Lauderdale wanted to!!

Cyd, I find it quite disingenous of you to point out in your article that the World Series is being held in Phoenix AFTER you rant and rave about elitism and NAGAAA "doing whatever the hell it wants." And you mention it almost as an afterthought. You wait ELEVEN paragraphs, and then don't mention it until you quote Phoenix's women's commissioner. You also have a number of typos and grammatical errors, which suggest that, instead of writing a well-thought out article, you published a rant based strictly on emotion.

At NAGAAA's winter meetings, both Phoenix and Kansas City submitted bids. Phoenix's bid was better. To get to the better bid meant a bit of flexibility. It's too hot to hold it in Phoenix in August, so it was moved. As far as the MAGIC tournament and San Diego's tournament, there are many, many tournaments who rearrange their schedules to accommodate other events. The year DC hosted the World Series, Philadelphia hosted the Columbus Day tournament.

NAGAAA sounds like it's being flexible. Maybe you can do the same thing.

No disingenuity was intended.

What typos and grammatical errors are there? I read this over twice, as did someone else, before posting.

I didn't say they weren't being flexible. I'm saying they were thinking only of their own best interest in deciding this with no warning, which is exactly the same thing that created the Gay Games-Outgames dilemma this summer. They did no homework about what else was going on that weekend; because, I'm assuming, they just didn't care.

I've heard from several athletes - NAGAAA athletes - who now have to choose between the two events. Luckily for our event, most of them I've heard from will choose football. It just sucks that NAGAAA is forcing them to make that decision.

Cyd - I'm curious, when putting together the Super Bowl, did the organizers give consideration to other weekends? From what I've found, it was held in April the first 2 years, and then over Columbus Day weekend the next 3 years. Given what you said about the other events planned that weekend, did you contact the organizers of the bowling, softball, rodeo, and tennis events to see what impact the Super Bowl would have on them before deciding to switch dates?

I agree that it sucks. I don't know that NAGAAA is planning on making the World Series an annual October event though, so I think it would be a good idea to find out before getting too worked up. And I wouldn't classify it as a secret - I've known for months that Phoenix was bidding for an October Series from their website.

Honestly, the article strikes me as being more of a "I'm pissed because my event might suffer" than a fair and balanced account of what's going on. You portray NAGAAA as the big monster that doesn't care about anyone else, and while it makes for some dramatic reading, the article is more likely to stir up hard feelings and create divisions, exactly what you decry in the Gay Games/Outgames conflict.

Weaselman, that's often my writing. I made sure to put in my personal stake in the issue so it wasn't a question. The organizers from Phoenix wrote to me and I asked them to please write an article from another perspective. I also told them that, since we're here and the situation won't be changing, that we need to start working together. Hopefully we can do that.

When we moved the event to October, we had about 80 participants and all of those events were larger. I can't remember the discussions before we moved it, but I imagine we considered it for a bit. Still, an 80-person event isn't quite the same as a 3000-5000 person event moving.

The Gay Super Bowl was moved to make it fall into the football season. Holding it in April was a disadvantage to cold-weather cities that had a hard time practicing prior. There had been only 2 held in the spring and it was not as big as it is now so its impact on other sports or events was negligible.

Ok, so now that the Super Bowl is getting bigger, are there any plans to shift the date so it doesn't conflict with other events? I'm not trying to be an ass, but it does seem ironic to complain about another event switching dates without contacting other tournaments when the Super Bowl did the same thing. It may have been smaller, but certainly it was expected to grow, wasn't it? I would think picking a date with no conflicts would be the best way to ensure as much participation as possible.

On a side note, what's the process for bidding to host the Super Bowl? Cyd mentioned that NY is hosting for 2007 and found that out in Oct. '05, but Texas (Dallas) is hosting for 2006 and just found out this month. Was there a problem with the '06 bids that caused everything to be late? I'm just wondering if there's enough time to change the dates for the '07 Super Bowl - I would think (and I could be wrong) that it would be possible to still get fields and a host hotel lined up this far in advance for a different weekend.

And from a purely athletic standpoint, do you guys understand the reason behind the date switch and why the Phoenix organizers pushed for that change? If it has to be held during August, that virtually eliminates them from hosting. There was talk about them co-hosting with Denver (I'm assuming Phoenix would have helped with the logistics while Denver would've hosted the actual games) but that apparently didn't amount to anything.

Hey Weasel, There's no weekend (except maybe Christmas) when nothing is happening. But, to pick a weekend when another NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP is happening, which also happens to be one of the busiest weekends of the year, is what troubles me.

Long story about the GSB bidding process. Suffice it to say, all future hosts will be determined two years out. So, we'll be voting this October on who will host the 2008 GSB. Texas is an anomoly because the GSB was originally going to be folded into the Gay Games, then not, blah blah blah.

Of course I understand why Phoenix doesn't want the tournament in August. But, if I was them, I would have held it in a time that wouldn't conflict with another national championship. To me, they were focusing on the wrong thing: how to let one particular city host, instead of what would be best for the athletes.

Sorry, but we're gonna have to agree to disagree. NAGAAA's a massive organization and has to decide what's in its best interests given the information they have . If Gay Football wants representation or to be consulted, show up at the winter meetings when the bid is awarded and put in your two cents worth (it's always held in February, and it's hosted by the city who will be hosting that year's World Series). Both Phoenix and Kansas City had receptions for the NAGAAA representatives who were in Ft. Lauderdale that weekend (though anybody who wanted to come was welcome), and they listened to all feedback and criticism.

Any of us who play softball have known since the San Diego World Series in August that Kansas City and Phoenix were the two finalists, and if Phoenix got the bid, the series would be played in October. This was NO secret. Most of us also suspected that Phoenix would probably GET the bid, since Kansas City hosted a series in 1997. Did you share your concerns with Lon Berger or Roy Melani, the Commissioner and Asst. Commissioner of NAGAAA? Or are you just crying foul now that the decision's been made.

You did hit the nail on the head, though. If we waited until there were NO other activities, well, there'd be no World Series. And by the way, your argument about teachers being unable to get off of work is specious, since most school districts in the southern US start back to school in August, and teachers are already at work when the World Series is played. Many of them can't be there the whole week, but those I know of, myself included, find a way to get there during game play.

I still think that publishing a temper tantrum and calling it journalism is simply irresponsible. Also, check your article for misuses of their, there, and they're, since you asked.

[ February 15, 2006, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: SoFlaSpartan ]

The thing is, what's best for the athletes is to play the Series in October because of the heat/humidity in August. To me, Phoenix was linking the two things you mentioned: in order to host, they felt the best thing for the athletes was to have it in October. I don't know if they would have even bid if that wasn't an option, in which case we'd be stuck with KC in August (and I'm not sure which is worse, weatherwise).

I just don't see this as them trying to screw over the Super Bowl. For several reasons (weather, holiday weekend) they chose those dates because that's what was best for them and the athletes.

I can understand the argument that some people want to participate in both events, but I think that number is going to pretty low. Given the choice between 3000 people playing softball in extreme heat or making a few dozen people choose which event to attend, I think they made the right decision.

Not that I'm going to play in either one, but I can't see the event that has 3,000 participants worrying less about the best interests of their own group and worrying more about a conflict with an event that has something like 5 percent of that number.

And, they're two different sports. This doesn't really compare to the Gay Games/Outgames controversy. And it's not valid to compare it to the NFL hypothetically moving the Super Bowl to June -- pro sports leagues don't work the same as events like this.

On the other hand, check out some dates the Summer Olympics were held, based at least in part on the host nation's location and climate:

1956 Melbourne Nov 22-Dec 8
1964 Tokyo Oct. 10-24
1968 Mexico City Oct. 12-27
1988 Seoul Sept 17-Oct 2
2000 Sydney Sept 15-Oct 1

Regrettably, some athletes will be forced to choose and most others will have no trouble deciding...

Some look at their world and wonder why?
Others look at their world and wonder - why not?

It could be a wedding, an illness, Al Queda or the all too common blimp disaster over the Rose Bowl on New Year's Day - the best planning is often compromised and there is nothing anyone can do about it except suck it up.

...Just build the best event you can possibly imagine and the rest will just take care of itself.

First, we'd like to start by thanking everyone on outsports.com for having a way for athletes and fans to communicate and share their thoughts.

The Cactus Cities Softball League (CCSL) in Phoenix takes great pride in providing our athletes, fans, and community an environment that fosters sports competition predominantly for Gays, Lesbians and anyone dedicated to promotion of the amateur athletic experience.

For 30 years, NAGAAA has hosted the Gay Softball World Series (GSWS) in August, therefore, limiting many cities from even bidding to host the event mainly due to the weather. In thinking of all of the NAGAAA members and continued growth of the organization, NAGAAA incorporated a new model in which the timeframe for GSWS to be held anytime between August and October.

This provided an opportunity for many cities to now bid for the GSWS. With Phoenix hosting one of the best tournaments in NAGAAA each year, we jumped at the opportunity in welcoming the GSWS to Phoenix. There were many things that we had to take into consideration in reaching our date including but not limited to education professionals, San Diego tournament, weather, and other sports venues.

With many schools already being in session in August during the traditional date, we didn't see that as an obstacle. We took into consideration the San Diego tournament and even got support from the voting delegates from their city. Most importantly, we thought of the thousands of players and fans who would attend, and concluded that the week of October 1st would be the best dates.

It has been a year now that Phoenix has been communicating to NAGAAA (including all voting delegates and league commissioners) that we were going to bid for an October 2007 GSWS. We knew that we were going to be up against a city that had already hosted a GSWS and a team that exemplified the same passion as we had for hosting. Not once were we approached by any other sports organizations or fans of the conflict of dates for all scheduled sports venues during the same week.

We think that through conflict, our goal should be resolution. Let's all work together to improve the process and unite our communities. Let's keep in mind that change is inevitable, but good. We must also understand that with so many Gay Sports organizations out there and with limited times to host events; we will run into the same weeks. Perhaps establishing a volunteer based National Gay Sports Forum consisting of a representative from each Gay sports organization to meet a few times a year to openly communicate, without bias, events scheduled for each organization. Maybe this will help open the lines of communication for better planning.

Cactus Cities Softball League is honored to be hosting such a significant event. City of Phoenix officials along with the community welcomes everyone here for the GSWS, October 1-6, 2007. We also welcome everyone for our Saguaro Cup Tournament April 7-9, 2006. Visit us at cactus cities softball league

Sincerely,
Phoenix 2007 NAGAAA World Series Committee
Cactus Cities Softball League

Not being involved in the Winter Meetings going on this weekend, this is big news to us. As a northern climate team, trying to stay in softball shape for three months after our season ends is definitely going to be a challenge. The big story, not discussed in this article, is that the reason only two cities bid on this series is because of a new host city contract drafted by NAGAAA which was completely one-sided. Although assurances were given that the contract could be negotiated, it was not apparent that the negotiation could be completed before the intent to bid had to be announced.

I find Cyd's outrage to be disingenuous. He correctly states that the gay softball world series is the largest such event in the US. Yet, Outsports has given it no attention for years. In fact, I was surprised to finally see pictures from the 2005 event up on this site. They weren't there the last time I visited. In fact, the article that has been on the Softball page was years old. Outsports is missing out on a great event. This is the last place I expected to find any softball news.

Really? None? Then how do you explain these links I found just now doing a Google search?

Parting thoughts from the GSWS - 2001
Photos from 2001
Results from 2002
Preview of teams participating in 2003

There are more. That's just a sample. So who's not paying attention?

[ February 18, 2006, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

You had to go back quite a few years to find anything. Click on the Softball link on the left nav menu. Most of the more recent news is from press releases issued by tournaments or NAGAAA (ie. Dallas awarded 2004 Series). Yet where is the coverage of the 2004 Series? Nothing on the Softball page for the 2005 Series either. There is a retrospective of 2001 and 2002 if history is of interest.

I'm just saying, as the biggest annual gay sporting event in the US I would expect more coverage from this site. At least something timely.

Bandit, don't ask too many questions, it's just the way most of the newcomers get welcomed to this board unless you proclaim an insane love of the Philadelphia Eagles upon arrival. Sad, but true.

So it's disorganized. That doesn't mean it's not there. That's a far cry from saying there's nothing.

And HornFan, grow up.

Outsports has to rely on people at these events to volunteer to cover them. They don't have a group of reporters to send out. The Flag Football Super Bowl gets more coverage because Cyd and/or Jim is there every year.

There is also very little coverage of the gay bowling events for example. And there are arguably more participants in gay bowling than any of the other sports. But if nobody at these events steps up to volunteer to report on them, how is Outsports expected to cover them?

Bandit, we have had people PROMISE us to write articles about the GSWS, and then they have flaked out. We comitted one year to having a weekly national roundup of softball coverage and the writer decided halfway through that he couldn't do it. We would LOVE to cover softball more. And if you have a writer who will commit to doing it, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE send them our way!!! My email is cyd@outsports.com

There's no coverage of most gay sports mostly because most gay publications, community publications that they claim to be, utterly fail said community when it comes to coverage of sports within that community. Blame the publishers and editors.

To be fair, it also takes someone with the passion about, interest in, and knoeledge of sports as well. Not to mention good writing, reporting, and photography skills. Such work is typically long hours, often during times when you'd much rather be relaxing or pursuing other interests, and low paying (if it's paid at all).

From my own experience, back in 1986, when I approached then-Editor George Bakan at the Seattle Gay News to propose a sports section, he actually was enthusiastic about it, saying that the sports community was a vibrant part of the community, but mostly invisible and under-served. I served as Sports Editor there for about 5 years, although for the time I worked full-time at the paper, I also did lots of newswriting, some feature writing, and plenty of production work as well.

I've also been told by the "sportswriter" of the Bay Area Reporter that his readers aren't interested in the sports reporting I providded, such as game and event stories and results, but rather enjoy the titillating aspects that he often provides. As one who got bowling league standing in every week, got race results for FrontRunners members in whenever possible, covered the founding of the Federation of Gay Games, and even published softball league box scores, I know that's not the case.

While I understand Syd's outrage, in some sense well justified, it's not the first time a major gay sports event has been moved for convenience's sake. The Federation itself did it in 1994 when they moved the Gay Games from its traditional July-August timeframe (true, it was a short tradition) to the end of June so the event would better mesh with New York City's Stonewall 25 celebrations.

In some ways, that was also the beginning of the Games' organizers (not the Federation) putting more emphasis on parties than sports. But that's another thread.

But Phoenix in August can't be much worse than Los Angeles in 1992. Then, the World Series was held in the Valley north of LA. As I recall, temperatures on the fields some days got as high as 115 degrees. I rememeber one day Gatorade was apparently promotiong a new diet verion in cans. They backed a truck up in the parking lot and players were carrying away all they could hold in their arms. Over the several days I played, I drack all sorts of fluids, gallons and gallons worht, it seemed, and never peed a drop, instead sweating it all out.

Phoenix is hot in the summer. Duh. Plan for it. Prepare for it. But don't shirk away from it and screw over fellow athletes. We've already been screwed over enough by OutGames. NAGAAA should reconsider.

Just a couple of points related to the discussion, which are pertinent to the results regarding the World Series being held in Phoenix in October.

While the softball World Series has occurred during the third week of August for many years, there has always been the opportunity for any city bidding to host the World Series event to change the week on which it takes place. The NAGAAA bylaws give a range of dates, in which the bidding city may choose when they wish to have the Series take place. This is pretty much anytime in August, September, or October. Thus, in 2008, the Series will most likely revert back to the third week in August, but that is no gurantee. There are several factors that have to be considered, not only the weather in the specific city, but the availability of the softball complexes, hotel accommodations, etc... There are a lot of softball associations that have their state, regional, and national tournaments during this time, thus fields aren't always easy to obtain.

Second, let's not place blame on the board members of NAGAAA for something they did not choose. The two cities bidding for the 2007 Series each made worthy presentations, but the decision regarding which city won the bid is not determined by the Executive Board of the Open Division or the Women's Division. The winning city is determined by a majority vote, with each member city in good standing with NAGAAA receiving 1 vote for the open division, and 1 vote for the women's division, if that city qualifies for each. Therefore, the selection of Phoenix was determined by use of a Democratic process, with a total vote count of approximately 65 representatives, or close to that number.

If anyone is upset about the selection of Phoenix to be the host city, they should probably start by contacting their NAGAAA member representative to determine how that person voted on behalf of their entire membership. Just my two cents whether it matters or not...Have a great week!