Who would have thought participants at the Outgames would be subject to homo jokes by other athletes. It happened at water polo.

The Gazette- Homophobic jokes at Outgames

1) Sounds like either there weren't that many water polo teams in Montreal to have such a mismatch, or else whoever came up with the pairings screwed up (or was it just done at random?)

2) It's one thing to have a few straight people on a team, but there shouldn't be a team that's virtually all straight in a gay competition.

3) My solution would be to request the Laval team remove the four players voluntarily. If they turned down that request, then I'd throw out the entire team.

As per your second point: Why? I thought the games were open to everyone. If straight athletes want to show support for their LGBT friends why should they de denied entry?

As per your third point: Isn't that a bit harsh? If an apology is not forthcoming, and I certainly would not cheapen or degrade our team by demanding one... then the next time you just don't invite them, and if they try to register or compete again, then you write a polite note regretting your inability to accept their registration for...

The team will quickly get the message, and things are cleared up without making it confrontational.

Let the Team take care of their own jerks. Peer pressure can be a wonderful thing.

But really - are we so oversensitive as a communitty that this minor incident by a few jerks actually cast a blight on a florishing, vibrant event enjoyed and attended by thousands of people? I have been to quite a few Pride events over the years, and - at least in the early 90's there were always a few hecklers or rednecks or other jerks who just had to protest and make fools of themselves.

We have come a long, long way in a relatively short time, and we have much further still to go; but we won't ever get there if we are so oversensitive as to allow ourselves to be distracted from the big issues by a very small number of insensitive morons.

R

Oversensitive? You have to be kidding. This is not minor -- this occured at a GAY sporting event. This should be the last place any gay athlete has to hear homophobic comments; we put up with enough shit elsewhere to say it's acceptable at an event geared to us.

I would have kicked the 4 out immediately -- zero tolerance. Had this happened at a gay flag football event, I bet you that players would have taken it into their own hands.

[ August 05, 2006, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Jim at Outsports ]

Agreed Jim, its the one place where this kind of thing cannot be tolerated in any way, shape or form.

The only possible leeway one could give is the language barrier and they said it thinking no one would understand them.

Still absolutely inexcusible, but when you believe you are discussing something privately you tend to state things you wouldn't say otherwise.

I have to question the motives of a team that is mostly straight playing in an event like this. A couple of guys who are playing with their friends I have no problem with. But it sounds to me like these guys (and teams I have encountered in softball tournaments) are merely interested in winning another trophy rather than supporting the gay cause.

So you are going to let 4 insensitive jerks who misbehaved for 15 minutes overshadow a great week long event that was a triumph for thousands?

I never said it was acceptable, it disgusts me; but why should we let that detract from what was a wonderful event enjoyed by thousands of people, both gay and straight?

You think the flag football players would have taken it into their own hands huh? And done what - something stupid and macho?

Not every insult needs to be met with physical confrontation - sometimes quiet diplomacy will get you further - "You get more flies with Honey..."

Think about the recent dustup at the Bingham cup with the firefighter team who refused to play...

The opponent team handled it quietly, through the proper channels, and resolved the issue with an affirmation by the governing body and several apologies to the team members.

They gained a great deal of respect from me for handling it with tact, not blowing the incident out of proportion, and I imagine gained a great deal of respect from other teams and athletes by not being aggressively confrontational.

Maybe too it is an age thing, I admit that when I was in my 20's I would probably have swung first and asked questions later. One of the benefits of survival is that you can learn.

R

[ August 05, 2006, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

While the incident sucks, I don't think it should have colored anyone's experience of a tournament. Dropped soap jokes? My friends make those jokes. It's definitely off color; but, gay people have a way of making a cause celeb out of every insensitive comment anyone makes.

I never said we would have taken physical action; that's you reading into it. But these guys would have been confronted right there and told their actions were unacceptable and their team (and the organizers) told to take apprpriate measures.

Your point, IT, was to claim the players upset were insensitive and that sounds an awful lot like blaming the victim.

I really wonder about the motives of a straight team playing in a gay tournament. I don't know if it is really just adding another trophy or believing that they would just come in and beat "the gays" at their own tournament. One can only wonder how the Laval team would have reacted had their team just been trounced 12-0 by a gay team.

It's a GAY event. I'm not saying ALL straight people should be excluded. But straight teams have a lot more tournaments they can participate in. I think a predominantly straight team should spell out very clearly why they want to participate in a gay tournament.

Let the team take care of their jerks at the time they commit their misdeed. If they don't then the team proves they're not capable of or interested in stopping anti-gay attitudes and thus forfeit their opportunity to continue to participate. That'll be a lot quicker and more effective than sending them a polite letter four years down the road.

That wasn't at the Bingham Cup. It was at something called the Rockaway Rugby Sevens tournament. (I bet those players who refused to play wouldn't have ever considered playing in a gay event.)

[ August 05, 2006, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: FireCharlieManuelNow ]

I can't understand why that kind of crap should be tolerated either. Imagine, purely hypothetically, an event primarily intended to celebrate black athletes. A mainly white team participates, and makes "innocent" racist jokes. You think people would just let that go? The white players would be ridden out on a rail, and deservedly so.

Have we, as gays, so little self-esteem, that we think homophobic humor is something to be endured?

Funny, I wonder whether we have so little self-esteem that we let things like this overtake the joy that's supposed to come out of an event like this.

As for "homophobic" humor, I don't think every time someone makes a gay joke it's "homophobic." I'll have to read more about this to decide whether it was really "homophobic" for myself.

No - Absolutely NOT my point.

The players who were upset by the biggoted language had every right to be angry and insulted. The language and conduct was totally inappropriate.

My point was that if an immediate apology was not received, then the gentleman who overheard the remarks should have been able to report it to the event authorities, who should have handled it quickly, efficiently, and decisively; without making a huge public deal about it. If the team didn't take care of their own mess, then a quick formal letter thanking them for their participation, but pointing out the inappropriate behaviour and asking them to leave would have been appropriate. And then - yes - you remember those participants next time even if it is four years down the road (I am quite willing to forgive, but I never forget a slight or insult.

I just think that being in your face confrontational is not always the answer to every problem. A quiet discussion with the team captains, coaches, or managers should have been attempted before it got out of hand and 'cast a blight over the event'.

The truth of the matter is that if a similar discussion had taken place where the participants were all gay then this discussion would never have occured.

As a matter of fact I have occaisionally heard openly gay men saying damn near the same things - making similar 'jokes' in the locker room - for as long as I can remember. Other gays did not take offense and gave back 'locker room banter as good as they got.

I think it is similar to two black gentleman calling each other 'boy' or 'nigger'; In some circumstances it is just good naturd banter. However if a group of white men said that and a black man walked in on the discussion... It would be considered extremely insensitive, even racist.

Further I will admit that I frequently use those words - and far 'worse' with one of my best friends of over 35 years; He gives it right back with language that most gays would find totally objectionable (cock sucking faggot?). But we have been very close friends since we were kids (I was his best man, he will be a witness at my commitment ceremony next month: I am godfather and guardian to both his kids): We smile when we are absolutely at our 'worst', and we both know there is absolutely no predjudice on either side, and that we would in fact give each other the shirts off of our respective backs.

I do not excuse the jerks who made these stupid and totally insensitive remarks; but should it make even a footnote in what I hear, from everyone who was there, was an absolutely terrific event?

I don't think so.

There's more important stuff to deal with. Celebrate the good stuff.

As for straight people playing - there were at least two gay people on their team - if they as a club wanted to show solidarity and support for their gay team mates, then why shouldn't they be allowed to.

Life can be very hard if you automatically distrust everyones motives and assume the worst at the very outset - it is way too easy to fall into a 'bunker mentality'.

Maybe I am overly optimistic - but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong. Sure you get beat up a lot - but then you get a lot of wonderful suprises too.

After all - how many straight athletes quietly participated in the games supporting friends and relatives that you never heard about? I am willing to bet it was a very large multiplier of 'four'.

Sorry for the long posts - but thats what you get after half a bottle of Knappogue.

Rob

Wanna write for us? We pay by the ounce.

As for other comments, what those players did was homophobic and uncalled for and I understand why the other teams were pissed. And quicker action should have been taken.

Diesel? Every little bit helps these days...

R

I don't think straights should be allowed to compete in GAY events. As a poster said earlier, they have tons of events where they can compete; gay events are special events, where gays can be comfortable and have fun. Furthermore, I compare it to straights going to gay clubs/bars. They are fair game to get their ass or cocks grabbed, hit on, etc. So if they were straight and I knew it ahead of time, I most DEF would flirt, ass grab, etc. with them. If they have a problem with it, just tell them: "This is OUR house bitch!" :cool:

excluding people from participating in something because of their sexuality is wrong.

Faydman has it right. Excluding people because of their sexuality is wrong.

My thoughts too, PR. I respectfully disagree with those who say we shouldn't limit the gay games to gays and lesbians, but not for the simplistic reason that "they have theirs, we should have ours." Rather, the purpose of the gay games, to me at least, is twofold: to show that we can be formidable sportsmen and women, and to allow like-minded folk to connect. Allowing straight "ringers" into that mix, especially when their motives are suspect, as demonstrated by their behavior, runs counter to those purposes and the spirit of our games.

My thoughts: I think the Outgames officials handled this poorly. There should have been an immediate investigation to determine the severity of the incident: was this just good-natured ribbing or homophobic jokes made, essentially, in the face of gay opponents. It's enough that this straight male team soundly defeated the mixed LG team, but did they have to rub it in by taunting them afterwards? Depending on the investigations, the players in question could be removed... or the entire team could be removed, with games and/or medals forfeit.

And I think this same policy should apply to gay people taunting other gay people. It's unsportsmanlike and inappropriate in a competition of this nature. A little trash talking during competition is fine, but there's no place for intimidating, humiliating or belittling your opponents. It's because LGBT people have had to put up with that in life that we are afraid to compete in the first place. LGBT sports competitions are our chance to try and not be made fun of regardless of our skill level.

The motives of this team are very suspect. Straights are welcome. But they must realize that competing in the Outgames/Gay Games is like marching in the Pride Parade: you can't do so and still be calling people "fag" to their face.

[ August 07, 2006, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: canmark ]

Cyd - I'm surprised by your take on this. It seems at odds with your understandable exception to the behavior of the straight rugby team in NY. In that incident you were unhappy with the silence of the gay team; here you're unhappy with the lack of silence from the team that heard the comments.

I'm not sure I understand why you think the reactions to the two incidents should be different. To me, both are homophobic and should be should be noted as such.

Isn't an investigation of comments overheard in the shower, not directed towards anyone, going a bit far? If the one guy didn't understand French, no one would have heard a thing? What's next: Are we going to make people wear microphones wherever they go so we can hear and censor whatever comments we disapprove of? Investigating comments overheard in the shower is a little bit insane. Now, examining why an all straight team is in the outgames is more than valid...What's up with that?

One of the most powerful things about the mission of the Gay Games is that it is open to anyone. Indeed, as soon as we began to emphasize that message with the media, the writers really began to understand more about the mission of the Gay Games; while focused on reducing stereotypes and bigotry toward the LGBT community, we were doing so without resorting to erecting barriers against others.

In Chicago, this gave us a tremendous opportunity to bring people together. Stories that focused on straight athletes gave those folks a chance to say how sports is sports and how much fun they had in LGBT leagues, competing with friends who just happened to be gay. I would say that this message, along with some of the athlete profiles of LGBT people who had great, universal stories to tell, were the most effective at the social mission part of what we were doing.

If someone had come to me and said "we have an all-straight team, can we play" I would have said "absolutely."

Tthe phrase "straight ringer" (almost always about men) bothers me. Doesn't this presume that straight men are better athletes than gay men? If a gay man at the top of his game (think Chris Morgan, world champion powerlifter) is at the Gay Games and wins, he's an example of the strength of gay athletes. But if a straight man were to do that, he's a "straight ringer" and we question his motives. "Why would he be at the Gay Games if he's straight." I can think of a dozen reasons!!

I guess this is one of the reasons I'm a bit uncomfortable about limits placed on "straights" on teams in some of the gay leagues and tournaments. If the concern is higher caliber people "playing down" then just enforce rules designed to put people in the right division. If the concern is homophobic remarks, then enforce sportsmanship rules, and use it as an opportunity to teach those who thought they were liberal but might not be so liberal.

[ August 07, 2006, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: KevinB ]

Why are they called Outgames, or Gay Games? While good competition is just that in whatever sport or arena, I don't think an entirely straight team is appropriate for the gay games. And I certainly don't suggest excluding any individual, but an entire straight team? I don't get it. And for the record, I've played in both the GLTF, as an individual and on a team, and regular USTA tennis tournaments. I'll admit, I always enjoy beating straight players...

I agree with you Bryan, and while I understand your points, KevinB, I think that there is a place in the world for exclusivity based on one's race, ethnicity or sexual orientation, and such exclusivity doesn't necessarily mean bigotry or discrimination: does the Latin Grammy awards show include non-Latin award categories? Does the NAACP Image awards have categories for non-African-American people? If there is an athletic event named "GAY Games", why is it unreasonable that an all-straight team is not allowed to participate? I understand that we gay people have been subjected to discrimination and have all been ostrasized in one way or another, and that this experience leads us to be, perhaps, more sensitive than others when it comes to exclusion, but that does not mean we have to be so extreme as to deny our gay & lesbian athletes a place to compete among ourselves, to celebrate and honor the GAY athlete: nothing against my straight jock friends, but we'll compete against you on the local ballfield: let us have the Gay Games for ourselves.

Nope. The Gay Games is all about 'inclusion', even if it means an all-straight team (I know, there are SO many of these).

[ August 08, 2006, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: softballstud ]

KevinB and Softball Stud are absolutely right. This is all about inclusiveness. Never mind - how the heck would you even try to enforce a gay only policy, when you have people arriving for one week from all over the world? What 'Are you gay?' test would we give them? wink

Well, if things change and the Games should become the ‘non-inclusive’ Games….I would volunteer my services to be in charge of the GAY testing. Woo Hoo!

I believe the Latino Grammys or NAACP awards (et al) were created to serve an under-represented group who created their "own" event for inclusion, exposure and equality. Does that sound similar to the reasoning for the Gay Games? Maybe we as a community have done the right thing in creating our event to be of a different caliber; to stand out individually by including ALL. Different tact but I think that when people may assume as gay we have an agenda of "specialness." We're trying to show it's normalicy and inclusion that we need to foster, not differences.
Based on opinions it could go either way, but I'd like to think of it as classy on our part. Just my thought...
-Rick

There was another incident during Outgames/ DiversCité week. Last Friday (before the last weekend for both events) around 11:30pm on Ste Catherine street around St-Christophe street and parc Emilie-Gamelin. (start of gay village)

A group (15?) of young people physically attacked people on the street. Jumped in the air to kick people in the back, or kick they leg, or slap them behind the head while saying anti-gay things.

This comes from hearing a witness and a victim on the radio. The radio host contacted police and they at first said they did not know of such event, there were no reports about this, to finally aknowledge something had happened (radio host had details) but giving few information.

It was not in the media and police don't seem to talk about this. The host thinks it's for the image of Montreal as a gay friendly city.

Tom Waddell established the inclusiveness norm. Softball began in San Francisco with a struggle over this issue, and, to this day, has quotas. Competition can get overheated and there is perceived pressure to get ringers [of whatever description] to play in teamsports. I think this is ok, in terms of getting non-gays to play, even though it is individually hurtful to regular gay players who get benched or pushed off teams [yes, it's happened to me, all-star that I am - lol!] I think this can be minimized - simple pre-registration helps a lot. Otherwise you get the Outsports water polo homophobic incident where grabbing yobbos off the street gets predictable results.

We have, as Jim noted in his piece, had good results in flag football with much camaraderie across teams and solidarity in promoting the sport. It is possible that a contact sport gets over homophobic snarkiness because physical violence is so handy. Anyone playing can handle violence, and it's unwise to push trash-talking too far.

My bias toward FGG comes from the fact that most gay sports have evolved incrementally, and it's critical to include the sports organizations under the Games organizational umbrella. Most sports groups can and do organize the events at the Games. They also know how hard it is to organize gay sports and how precious the Games are. [The relative failure of Games softball competitions may relate to the refusal of NAAGA to include itself in FGG.]

Although I disagree with Cyd about GLISA/FGG, we clearly agree about the value of the Games. It is too bad that the Outgames is controlled by the circuit party moguls, otherwise it would be useful to add the organizational 'zing' of the Outgames which Cyd stresses in his comparison. [Maybe the drugs help - lol!!]

[ August 10, 2006, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: LACharlie ]

As a gay man, I don't like to be made fun of or be discounted as a human being. But, I think a little bantering meant to be only between a few immature guys on the Laval team can be easily forgiven. It was not really directed against any gay person or group to make them feel less than human. A lot of straight Quebec men go both ways a lot of the time. And, they tend to be a little playful about teasing each other. So, their banter is not really meant to hurt anyone's feelings. And, Quebec men are among the sexiest men on the continent. Sometimes, it can be flattering when an incredibly handsome straight guy from Quebec looks at you and awkwardly teases you and smiles sweetly. It is the homophobic rants of those who want to ban gay men (and women) from the military and other avenues of employment that truly makes my gay blood boil. Save your fire for the important issues, and overlook a little immaturity among the handsome men of Quebec.