Okay, as you can see from my name, I live in Montreal, but as a gay games athelete from Sydney, I think I want to go to the Chicago event. Love to travel.

But I am also curious about what other people plan on doing. One of the amazing things about Sydney was the incredible number of people from different countries and I want to experience that again.

So I would like people who are planning on going to either (or both) to let me know and include where they are from.

UPDATE: While there have been many posts so far from umbrella groups and "interested" persons, I would appreciate it if this thread was kept for athelete and other people who plan on going to discuss why they personally wish to go to either Montreal or Chicago.

Please try to keep the politics of the schism on the other thread. I was curious mainly of why atheletes individually or within their own team are planning on going to one or the other. Not really interested in which event certain groups are trying to promote.

Thanks
Grant

[ November 04, 2004, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: m1 ]

Hi Grant. I'm from Washington, DC and going to Chicago as well to swim. Looking forward to it.

I think the majority, if not all, of the gay basketball players, and powerhouse teams (read "the US teams") will go to Chicago. That should be at least 12-16 teams on the men's side, maybe 8-10 on the women's side. Chicago has a yearly bball tournament that is the unofficial US championship, they are organized and run a great tournament. I hope that the Aussie, European and Canadian teams also come to Chicago, because I think that is where the major competition is going to be. Of course gay bball is a small group compared to other team sports like volleyball and softball, but my guess is that you can count on over 200 basketball players going to Chicago.

If I go at all it will likely be as a spectator, and I'd probably pick the real GG - Chicago.

Still undecided, as my sport is martial arts, and Montreal is only offering a karate division (and I do not do karate.) I can go for the point fighting, but not the additional 3 divisions that I'm eligable for in chicago. I would prefer to spend time in Montreal, but...

The main thing that's making me drag my feet on Chicago is the cost. Accomodation seems brutally priced. And Canadians get to add 35% with the %$#$@##!! exchange rate. Anybody know of cheap hotels?

You could rent a room for the night at Steamworks....sorry just a little joke.

I am hoping that if I go to Chicago, that I can bunk in with friends that live in Portage IN, about 30-40 minutes east of Chicago.

Hey Chuck - fairly soon Chicago will have lodging information available on our website. We've got 30,000+ hotel room nights (over 9 days) contracted for the Gay Games and most of the major hotels will be priced $89 to $119 for the duration of the Gay Games. I know - that's still not the same as you might find in Vancouver, but it's a significant discount off the rack rates of those hotels.

We're waiting for our online service provider to finish the online booking system - once that's done, people will be able to book online. I think this could go up as soon as 3 weeks from now - no more than 6.

We'll also have hosted housing opportunities, as well as low-cost dorm-style rooms. Those opportunities are going to be available a little later.

Kevin Boyer
Gay Games VII - 15-22 July 2006 - Chicago USA

[ September 11, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: KevinB ]

Grant...
How great that you are coming to the real Gay Games in Chicago (perhaps you'll be able to to do both events). It will be ONE AMAZING GAY GAMES, without a doubt. I get chills each time I think about a closing ceremony at Wrigley Field - how can you beat that?! :-)

See you in Chicago...
btw Grant, what is your sport?

Definately going to Chicago for water polo -- afterall, there's a Gay Games silver medal to defend!!! Haven't decided yet about Montreal, even though it's my city... I'll wait and see if there's enough interest from other teams to justify my investment of time and money -- but I'm not holding my breath. I think the make-or-break moment for water polo will be the upcoming IGLA Championships in Ft.Lauderdale.

Hey Grant,
I'm planning on playing Basketball in both the Chicago Tourney & the GG's.

I'm from Omaha, Nebraska.

Rob,
How was Atl?

Markopolo...
Another Montreal person coming to Chicago, how exciting. GOOD LUCK on defending your medal too -we'll be rooting for you. :-)

Rob...
you are from my neck of the woods, I grew up in Des Moines, have relatives in Omaha and Council Bluffs. How many Chicago tourneys have you attended? With whom do you usually play? As one of the original founding members of the Chicago Hoops classic, It is thrilling to see how it's developed and hear folks talk about CHICAGO HOOPS CLASSIC (now the Coady Roundball Classic) as THE 'primo' gay bball tourney. Every year we get an amazing group of athletes, and the BEST competion in the world. This year we had a team from the UK and a senior division (which my team played and won! -I know, I'm old).

With it's history and tradition, I can't imagine the basketball portion of Chicago 2006 being anything less than spectacular!

Thanks so far to everyone who has replied. I appreciate all the input.

I swam the butterfly events at the Sydney Games and plan on swimming again. Although I hopefully will be playing waterpolo as well (may be meeting you then Marko from Montreal). I guess the one advantage of living in Montreal is that I can go to Chicago and just stay home for the Montreal games.

Getting more and more excited every day - although the cost of staying in Chicago is not filling me with the same level of anticipation

Grant...see Kevin's post above.

Don't be discouraged. There will be many options in the months to come - including possible 'hosted housing'

I am not discouraged whatsoever. The joys derived from being at the Gay Games greatly outstrips any possible financial difficulty

Montreal or Chicago, love both cities, would really love to be part of the whole GG experience, never been to one, and being in Toronto, Chicago, is only an hour Flight. However, Montreal a great city in my Country, and would love to go and support the Inaugural Outgames. Decisions Decisions.

Maybe I'll join the Waterpolo group here and see where they are going?

[ September 16, 2004, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: rickinto ]

I'm thinking about playing golf and possibly pool. Does anyone know what the winner shot last time around?

EDIT: Never mind, I found them. Looks...promising.

[ September 19, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: golfer 21 ]

Obviously, we are VERY excited about the PlanetOut Sponsorship!

Kevin Boyer
Gay Games VII

hmmmm interesting.

Most kiwis i have spoken to seem to be heading towards Montreal. Partly as it takes a bit of effort and planning coming from here to anywhere in the Northern Hemisphere and so logistics were in train long before events were changed. Personally, i think you will find more kiwis heading towards Montreal if Bush is re-elected. Sad but true.

Am not sure exactly what Team Wellington or Team Auckland are officially planning.

For me, I was thinking a double header. Hockey in Montreal would be a amazing and if i can manage the time, then Rugby in Chicago would be in accordance with my pacific roots.

However, many other variables to contend with before then.

enjoy hearing more ideas

Cheers

e

GREAT NEWS for Planet Out/Gay.com and Chicago!

LargestCORPsponshorship

All the wrestlers I've talked to from Australia to Frankfurt so far are planning to go to Chicago. Wrestlers WithOut Borders has been working really closely with the Chicago Games people and we have no doubt that it will offer the best competition and best venue. Wrestlers tend not to be rolling in dough, so not that many of us I would say are considering doubling up for both events, but who knows? And I know when Golden Gate Wrestling holds its big fundraiser this weekend at the Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco, the money is all gooing toward our team expenses for Chicago.

Over here in Amsterdam most people I have spoken about the two games seem to have a preference for Montreal at the moment.

[ September 28, 2004, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Eric van Buren ]

To help people make up their minds as to which games they may choose to attend Team Toronto and the Toronto Sports Alliance are hosting presentations by representatives from each event. So those of you in the Toronto area who are thinking of attending either the OutGames in Montreal or the Gay Games in Chicago or both events for that matter, are encouraged to attend both presentations so that you can get all the latest and most accurate information on each event.

Chicago Gay Games representatives will be making their presentation on Saturday afternoon October 23 starting at 2:00PM. Montreal's OutGames representatives will be presenting Tuesday evening October 26th beginning at 7:00PM. Both meetings will take place in the Cabaret Room of the Buddies in Bad Times Theatre complex which is located at 12 Alexander Street just east of Yonge Street in the heart of Toronto's Gay Village.

Hopefully the informatation provided at these meetings may help people get the information they need to make a decision in time to still take advantage of the generous early registration discounts being offered by both organizations.

So if in the Toronto area - I hope to see you there at both meetings.
Cheers,
Pat Barry - on behalf of Team Toronto and the Toronto Sports Alliance

For those of you trying to make up your minds so you can save $$$ on registration fees before the end of 2004, here's a fascinating press release that just came out from Vorspiel: the sports group, not the business group bidding for 2009 Outgames. (By the by, GLISA extended its deadline for bids for 2009, but so far no takers other than Berlin).
==

PRESS RELEASE

Berlin
1.10.2004
VORSPIEL
Sportverein fџr Schwule und Lesben Berlin e.V.
Naumannstr. 33, Haus 6
10829 Berlin, Germany
Phone +49-30-44 05 77 40
Fax +49-30-44 05 77 41
mail@vorspiel-berlin.de
www.vorspiel-berlin.de

Gay Games or Outgames? The Conflict over Berlin's Bid

The Gay Games have existed now for 22 years. They are an international super-event and the primary expression of gay and lesbian sport and joie de vivre in the LGBT sports community. Now there is a rival event called the Outgames competing for its place in the LGBT sports calender.

What is behind all of this? The Gay Games were due to take place in Montreal in 2006, but after disagreement between the local organizing committee and the FGG (Federation of Gay Games), the license-holder of the Gay Games, Montreal rejected the Gay Games and opted to hold their own event, "Rendezvous Montreal". To legitimate (sic) their event, an umbrella organization, GLISA (Gay and Lesbian International Sports Association), was founded and "Rendezvous Montreal" became "The Outgames".

The GLISA is an initiative of several individuals, concentrated mainly in Europe and Canada, and still lacks broad international support. GLISA's intention to represent sports clubs and groups only indirectly via continental associations is not viable on an international level, since only one exists (the EGLSF - European Gay and Lesbian Sports Association), and is not a transparent form of representation.

The conflict which started with Montreal 2006 has caused a rift in the gay and lesbian sports community that we can neither condone nor support. There are forces in Berlin that would like to bid for the Outgames 2009: individuals, sports clubs and business people joined together in Games Berlin e.V. As of yet, there have been no other cities which have shown an interest in hosting the Outgames 2009. We are convinced that the bid for, and realization of the Outgames 2009 in Berlin would deepen the rift in our community and damage our reputation in the media and to potential sponsors. In addition, Vorspiel SSL Berlin e.V. sees considerable weaknesses in the Organization of both GLISA and the Outgames: Montreal 2006 has invested heavily in the creation of GLISA, making it completely dependent on the success of the Outgames in Montreal to survive.

Even if the first Outgames prove to be successful it would remain uncertain whether this success could be repeated in Berlin in 2009. The basis for the organizational and financial success of the Gay Games lie in the proven concepts of the FGG, which it has worked out and laid down in its guidelines. There has been justified criticism of the FGG for the high costs of recent Gay Games, but the FGG has reacted to the lessons of the past and modified its guidelines. The Gay Games must be planned based on realistic estimates of participation, without infringing on the sporting "value" of its tournaments. This is a reasonable approach that Vorspiel unequivocally supports.

Berlin has had a positive image in the international sports community in the past. Our athletes, joined together as "Team Berlin", presented the largest european team at the Gay Games in Amsterdam and Sydney, and have been responsible for numerous outstanding personal-bests and medal-performances. It would be tragic should this reputation now be sullied. It must be our responsibility at this moment to help restore unity in the international LGBT sporting community by supporting a bid for the Gay Games in 2010.

This rift in the LGBT sports community, motivated in part by personal reasons, is a step backward for our emancipation. Nobody will profit from having two rival events competing for legitimacy, support and participation. It should be clear to us all, that only one organization and its event can hope to survive; the number of qualified cities willing to take on the responsibilities of hosting such an event is limited.

The financial strength of US-Americans is bound to give the FGG a better chance to survive this crisis. It is likely that a majority of US-American participants will side with the FGG and opt for the Gay Games, because of its long tradition and greater familiarity. Without the support and participation of the numerous american athletes, however, no event in Berlin could hope to be a success.

We have attempted in the past to remain neutral in such divisive issues, because we understand our primary responsibility in tending to the immediate sporting needs of our many members. In this case, however, we see the potential for lasting damage to the international community, and thus to our members as well. For this reason, we are compelled to take action. We declare, therefor, our continued support for the Gay Games movement and call for a bid from Berlin for the Gay Games in 2010.

VORSPIEL Sportverein fџr Schwule und Lesben Berlin, e.V.
The Board:
Dirk Alex
Andreas Dåhne
Francis Dirkes
Grit Håmmerer
Bent Vansbotter

[ September 30, 2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Roger Brigham ]

That is a breathtaking press release from VORSPIEL and a major setback for the prospect of OutGames II in Berlin 2009.

Mark it down. October 1, 2004 will be remembered as an extraordinary day in the history of the Gay Games movement because LGBT sports leaders in Europe took a very important stand.

[ September 30, 2004, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: rtwilliams ]

Great news from Berlin!

Good luck with your bid process for 2010 and we'll see you in Chicago, 2006.

Well, I think it shows that serious sports organizations are evaluating the events from a perspective of sports and tradition.

[ September 30, 2004, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Roger Brigham ]

sorry...delayed browser caused dupe post.
...see below

[ September 30, 2004, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: CHIathlete ]

As they should. It's clearly a wise and well thought decision by Team Berlin.

It's been a good week for Chicago, check this out:
Gay Games to be televised

[ September 30, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: CHIathlete ]

Actually, it's Vorspiel, not Team Berlin. Vorspiel is by far the largest LGBT
sport club in Berlin and one of the five largest in Europe. It's an umbrella organization that offers about 30 sports, I believe, most of which are core sport at the Gay Games. They have a total of about 1,000 members, probably more. They are very respected in Europe including, but not only, for their role in the organization of the EuroGames in 1996.

There are other smaller LGBT clubs in Berlin which have joined Vorspiel into Team Berlin on occasion of events like the Gay Games.

[ October 01, 2004, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Roberto Mantaci ]

Wrong. E.g. Berlin, Germany, is going to Montreal as is the vast majority of European athlets in any other sports...

To be precise:
It's the Vorspiel BOARD, not the members... funny people, having no clue what they are talking about, but sending around press releases... while many Vorspiel divisions are activly planning the OUTGAMES 2009...
... and you might remember that the Vorspiel board did not even consider it necessary to attend the 2003 FGG Annual Assembly...
Funny again why they are so busy with FGG nowadays...

To be even more precise:
Berlins lesbian sport club Seitenwechsel is one of the five largest European clubs, too...
500 members... doesn't sound tiny to me...
... and there are about ten more single sport clubs repesenting about 500 glbt athlets...
not to mention the hundreds of individual athlets not afiliated with a glbt club...

BTW: Many Vorspiel members are afiliated with Team Berlin which is a separate organisation...

Any questions?

Pink Ballroom is the gay and lesbian dance group in Berlin and we are part of a much larger mixed club (Turngemeinde in Berlin). The dance department alone has some 300 members and the whole club more than 4.000 athletes. Not only Pink Ballroom but the whole club is proud to support Games Berlin and has joined as a member organization long ago. Turngemeinde in Berlin has its own sports facilities which it has gladly opened to Games Berlin as the bidding organization for their membership meetings and when they needed support from volunteers for their bidding efforts (such as movie shoots, event volunteers, etc.) or when they needed sports equipment for their event. It was in the premises of TIB when the membership of Games Berlin unanimously decided to bid for Outgames 2009.

Pink Ballroom and TIB are clearly different from Vorspiel and has NOT joined Vorspiel at any time. We have, however, joined Team Berlin, a separate organisation that is currently being boycotted by the Vorspiel Board, to go to the EuroGames in Munich.

BTW, all Pink Ballroom dancers I know of will be going to Montreal.

Juergen Beier
Chairman Dance Department
Turngemeinde in Berlin
www.tib1848ev.de
www.pinkballroom.de wink

Let the spin begin! But isn't the board elected by the members to represent them? Looks like some pretty serious damage control going on here. I guess they recognize the stakes if the Berlin bid for OutGames experiences a serious setback.

By the way, I heard the mayor of Berlin has withdrawn his support for the Games Berlin bid. Anybody out there who can confirm the status of that?

[ October 01, 2004, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: rtwilliams ]

Dear Roberto,

I would like to remind you that the Eurogames 1996 in Berlin were not organised by Vorspiel alone. The “very small LGBT clubs” Seitenwechsel, Gaysha, PinkPong and Regenbogenforellen – which are including about 700 members together - were involved too.

BTW: The gay & lesbian swim club Regenbogenforellen is an independent sports club and never joined Vorspiel or was part of this club. We are proud to support Games Berlin and the bidding for the Outgames 2009.

Best regards,

Stefan Santoprete
SC Berliner Regenbogenforellen

Of course there are going to be sports clubs in Berlin which support an OutGames II bid for 2009. Nobody is disputing that. But the largest sports organization in Berlin is withholding support and in fact outwardly expressing their non-support. That is tantamount to Team Chicago declaring they don't support the Chicago Games bid for Gay Games VII or Equipe Montreal expressing that they don't support Rendez Vous' bid for OutGames 1.0 in 2006. It's a significant setback to the effort, which is why we see all these people coming out of the woodwork to spin it as something else.

Best of luck to you, Games Berlin, but quit tearing down the Gay Games as you undertake your project, and quit trying to appropriate the legacy of the Gay Games by placing OutGames II within the context of the Gay Games movement as if Gay Games VII and Gay Games VIII do not exist. It's misleading, and it's a disservice to all gay athletes.

[ October 01, 2004, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: rtwilliams ]

Thanks for this and other posts. I edited my previous post to make it more accurate. I expect that some other issues raised in these posts and regarding the reality in Berlin will be addressed by some Vorspiel people.

The only thing that should be verified is a statement made by "European Source" that Seitenwechsel is also one of the five largest European club. I would have believed that at least the major clubs in Cologne, Frankfurt, Berlin, Paris and London are larger and probably others like Team Munich, Gay Sport Amsterdam, Zurich, Hannover, ... Seitenwechsel is a club exclusively for women, as long as we know.

Regards,

Roberto

Here is Rich spinning again. As far as I know and as it is expressed in previous posts not Team Berlin has said they don't support the Outgames but Vorspiel. This is more like Frontrunners Chicago and not Team Chicago - huge difference. It is clearly a setback for the bid but from the posts I am gathering there is significant discussion going on in Berlin. Let's wait and see more opinions. What is Team Berlin saying?

As far as I know Vorspiel is also not an umbrella organisation but a normal sports club (multi-sports), just as Seitenwechsel and probably others.

[ October 01, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: MartinNyborg ]

I am constantly amazed when I hear people make statements in regards to their experiences and observations and someone else tells them that they are wrong!!

Here is an example

EuropeanSource
Member
Member # 2610

posted October 01, 2004 03:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong. E.g. Berlin, Germany, is going to Montreal as is the vast majority of European athlets in any other sports...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Roger Brigham:
All the wrestlers I've talked to from Australia to Frankfurt so far are planning to go to Chicago. [...]


How can he be wrong? He said it was what the people he talked to had said, not a global statement.

If you disagree EuropeanSource, just say so, but guess what - you have no basis in telling him (or anyone else) about the content of conversations in which he participated!!!

Ken

It is regularly unbelievable to me that there are people in the world that will state that an entire group is indeed choosing either Chicago and Montreal simply because their leaders say so but when leaders say something that is different than what is wanted, all of a sudden these particular people have no right to speak.

I am still waiting to hear how it is that the whole country of Switzerland is going to Montreal when I a do know in fact, that there are people from Switzerland that are only going to Chicago.

If we could find ways to respect each other and our differences and speak to each other in more positive ways I would be happy. Perhaps there are a lot of people that cannot do that but it would be nice if we tried.

I am going to be happy to see the folks that show up in Chicago at the Gay Games. Even if it is a "hero's" vision it is still a good thing.

I would like to ask another question

If the FGG is operating on the vision of Tom Waddell, what vision is Montreal operating under?

They continue to use the basic concepts of Tom Waddell while Mark has no difficulty trashing the result of that vision. Is it his vision? What is that vision? How is it different than that which has been put forward by countless other groups in the past?

Sounds to me like an example of SSDS - Same Stuff, Different Shovel.

Ken

[ October 06, 2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: kenmac ]

Stuttgart seems to be going to Montreal.

On a web search this came up from their official team:

http://www.abseitz.de/outgames/

and Team Berlin seems to support the Outgames bid on their website

http://www.teamberlin.de/

[ October 01, 2004, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: MartinNyborg ]

Will somebody explain to me how it is that if the leaders of Vorspiel says "we don't think Berlin should bid on the OutGames" they somehow don't speak for the people they represent, but if the leaders of Abseitz in Stuttgart says "we've decided to support the OutGames" that this means that everyone in Stuttgart is going to that event? Lets at least be consistent.

Here in Vancouver it has become clear to us that people from this city and surrounding area will be going to both events even if the "leaders" of Team Vancouver decide otherwise and put it on their website.

It seems silly to me when I hear that a team city will be going anywhere! I have no doubt that there are a multiple of people that will make up their mind in the coming period.

In the last two Gay Games we found that the number of participants spiked beyond our dreams!!

We would have loved to say that they went to these events because we encouraged them and made a positive atmosphere for Gay and Lesbian sports and culture in our city but it is clearly not that simple and the people here are far from lemmings that follow their leaders.

I am not sure if Vancouver has the same issues as other cities simply because we love the Gay Games here ever since we hosted Celebration '90.

That doesn't mean that everyone here is blindly going to the Gay Games. I know of some people that will not even consider Chicago. I know of some that will not consider Montreal.

I am wary of anyone that poses to speak on behalf of large city or country groups as I don't think that history has shown that is how decisions will be made.

Just more of my thoughts

Ken

[ October 01, 2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: kenmac ]

Hey I somewhat agree with both Kevin and Ken - scary thought I know. We should be consistent about what we say, but we are all guilty of generalizing for ease of language and I'm sure that will happen in the future.

Team Toronto 'officially' is supporting both games. But those of us active on the board of Team Toronto and active in various leagues here are well aware of the fact that barring something dramatic the vast majority of people from Toronto are planning on going to Montreal although a fair number are indeed looking forward to going to Chicago. So Team Toronto is going to do whatever we can to assist the participants regardless of which event they choose to attend.

However with two competing games - much like the current US Presidential campaign - we will get spin for days with each side overhyping anytime there is news that can be interpreted as beneficial to them, just as the FGG has done with this Vorspeil announcement. I received a copy of it in no time. Of course the distribution of it came via the FGG through the the rep on Team Toronto who is the FGG's biggest backer on our board. Anything to help give the impression their side has the 'momentum' in the battle with Montreal to attract international (European) particpants. The idea of course being that they want to make their event foremost in everyone's mind, and to give the impression that their games will be 'the' event that everyone in the world is wanting to be at. Montreal will do the exact same thing (and has in the past), anytime any group like a Stuttgart - takes an 'official' position in their favour. The rest of us should just get used to this fact and not get our shorts tied in a knot too much everytime one of these releases comes out.

Ultimately the outcome will be decided by some 25,000 or so individuals who make a decision to attend one or the other games based on whatever reasons motivate them personally. And I suspect all the spin in the world by either side in regard to these quasi-political statements from 'leaders' of various sports groups may not have nearly the impact the 'leaders' may think. For instance if Team Toronto 'leadership' came out tomorrow and said "We support Chicago and Chicago ONLY' I suspect that would change very few people's minds in Toronto as to what game they personally will choose to attend and the vast majority would still be heading off to Montreal.

So as much as I like getting involved in these debates and critiquing arguments from the other side, I think ultimately, other than creating some interesting reading for some people - we really are having next to zero impact on who is deciding to go where. I must admit - it can be a bit fun at times though! wink

Have a great weekend everyone - Pat

Let's see what the athletes say and how much they follow the lead of their leaders.

Berlin seems to be highly divided from the posts. At the same time Berlin doesn't quite seem to be that divided from what my friends are telling me. Let' s wait and see. Stuttgart seems to have taken sides (not just the leadership),

question to both chicago and montreal: how many stuttgart registrations do you have? that would be the ultimate litmus test

It would be a good litmus test at the time that both Games are having their opening ceremonies.

At this point I believe,(and I would use posts from this Board to support those beliefs) that there are a lot of people that are waiting to register and are just now starting to think about what they will be doing in 2006. Most of them think that those of us that plan in 4 year sessions are just a bit crazy!!

Once we get into the final days, I will look forward to re-reading these predictions and match them up with real outcomes as you suggest.

Ken

[ October 01, 2004, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: kenmac ]

Hey Ken:
Actually I'll be amazed if there is not at least a bit of a registration rush just prior to the prices going up on registration costs at the end of this year. If I have learned nothing else from selling Games travel packages in the past it is that there are a lot of very frugal people out there, many of whom will indeed make up there minds in time so that they can take advantage of the early booking discounts. And yes most of those will wait until the very last few days before the prices go up before parting with their hard earned money.

So I suspect you should see a substantial spike in registrations, particularly from us cheap Canadians - actually I suspect from many frugal Europeans. Americans and others as well - just before the prices go up at year end.

With that in mind I think registration numbers at that point - as of January 1, 2005 - and what the geographic breakdown of those registrations are - will be realistically the first good indication we will all have as to just how well each side may be doing in their 'battle for athletes'.
Pat

[ October 01, 2004, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Travelpat ]

Hey Pat,

I respectfully disagree with your conclusion even though I have to agree with the trend you describe.

I disagree because it is an extrapolation of data to a potential......and I mean a potential result. People that study trends really get into this kind of thing but I can't buy it for an event that will still be just over 18 months away.

I believe that in Sydney and Amsterdam there was not a major glut of registrations more than 18 months out. I can remembe Stuart Borrie talking to me about determining the trend for people from the Team Vancouver catchment area and I can tell you our prediction was still way off.

I think in this situation the proof is in the pudding - specially with the number of people that seem to be taking liberties with predictive skills that really are not factual. I'd rather stay away from that and would rather work with fact.

My guess is that the two cities - Chicago and Montreal will be working with real numbers in an effort to meet predictions. If their registrations lag in one area, that will receive more support until they do achieve their goals.

Ken

Ken and Pat: We are measuring our numbers compared to the actual data from GGVI in Sydney and some data from GGV in Amsterdam and GGVII in New York. The situations aren't exactly comparable - our registration opened about 6 months earlier than Sydney's did. If you compare our first 3 months of registrations with their first 3 months of registrations (which were actually 6 months later into the cycle), we are actually quite a bit ahead of projections. But we will obviously be measuring ourselves against the "early registration" deadline, as well, which for us is December 31, 2004. We will probably reach our projected year-end numbers by the end of October.

Incidentally, we're not measuring ourselves against Montreal. Their event is brand new and while it is modeled upon the Gay Games, the unknowns are too numerous to warrant a close comparison. Additionally, since their "complete registration" (their words) didn't open until just last week, I don't know that even a non-scientific comparison will be possible for quite a while. Our registration system required payment on July 1 while theirs did not, and of course it's much easier to register and declare interest if you do not have to pay. I'm not criticising their system, just pointing out that comparisons aren't really possible at this time.

Registration for Sailing in Gay Games VII is now full, and registration for Golf is filling fast. If anyone reading this is interested in Golf, I'd suggest registering before the end of October to ensure space. Sailors should contact us via email at info@gaygameschicago.org to be placed on a waiting list. We are trying to acquire more sailing boats to extend the competition.

Kevin Boyer

Hey Ken:
I don't disagree with you that predicting trends based just on early registrations may not be an exact science. However in this case there are two competing events and there is no denying the fact that many, many people who are planning on attending one event in 2006 have basically been sitting on the fence since this unfortunate schism happened. And if they do want to take advantage of the early discounts many of them will start jumping off that fence on one side or the other quite soon. Hence the intense marketing efforts by both sides now. But the reason I say numbers as of Jan. 1 may be significant is because if one side or the other at that time has a significant lead in registrations over the other side, then the side with the lower number does have a problem on their hands that may be tough - although certainly not impossible - to overcome.

The reason I say that is because if one side clearly gains the momentum as the one that looks like it is going to be a huge success based on big registration numbers early, it makes their job that much easier, because many people will make their decision to go to that event, based on the fact that it has the appearance of being 'the' event to attend - because of the big early registration numbers.

Although not a good comparision - but on this rainy Saturday it is the only one I can think of off of the top of my head - I liken this to when there are two major dance parties being put on by two different groups in the same city on the same night. They both offer lower priced tickets up until a certain date and then prices go up. All the dizzy circuit queens gossip amongst themselves - which one are you going to? Have you bought your ticket yet? etc. etc. (It can be quite funny to listen to the conversations in coffee shops on things like this.) Ultimately in most cases it becomes clear that for whatever reason, most people are buying tickets to one party over the other and then everyone keeps hearing anybody they talk to saying that they have already bought their ticket for Party One, so they run out and do the same since that is where 'everyone' else is going. And as a result Party Two is left scrambling to attract enough party goes to make their event - if not a resounding success - at least not a total flop. And Party One ends up being an overwhelming smashing success.

So if one side or the other in this Games competition is successful in garnering significantly more numbers than the other at some point they will have a huge advantage. And because of the discounts I think that if this scenario is going to happen that we will see an indication of it happening by January 1. And if one side does have a huge lead at that point then it is going to be much like a snowball rolling down hill getting bigger as it goes for the side that has that significant lead, and trouble for the side that does not have the numbers.

I hope I'm making sense However my argument may be completely invalid if both sides continue to attract similar numbers throughout this early registration period, and on through regular rate registration as well. And the result may be - getting back to my dance party example - two pretty good well attended dance parties that everyone enjoys. And perhaps that kind of result may be the best thing we could all hope to have happen.

[ October 02, 2004, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Travelpat ]

Pat,

I believe that I understand your analogy but I still think that there are variables in regards to the Gay Games or Rendez-vous that carry a lot more weight.

This is very often less of an individual within a group decision as it is individuals and teams decisions.

I know of several people that would prefer to go to Chicago but their teams have decided - in a democratic way - to go to Montreal. I suspect the reverse will happen and we will see that scenario played out over and over again throughout the world.

In your scenario it is assumed (at least I assumed it was assumed) that the two parties are relatively equal when it comes to headline acts, venue etc. This would not hold true in this case.

Montreal has had several years to get their word out to people - with the assistance of the FGG and Chicago has had less direct time. This would appear to be a coup for Montreal but it may not pan out that way.

The promotions had to do with the Gay Games in Montreal and always had the Gay Games associated with it. I know many people that tell me they are going to the Gay Games in Montreal. When I tell them thatt he Gay Games are now going to be held in Chicago, they say they are going to the Gay Games in Chicago without batting an eyelash.

I suspect that there are still quite a number of people out there that still think they are going tot he Gay Games in Montreal but when the time comes to register, will sign up for Chicago. Prior to that they may even continue to tell people they are going to Montreal.

As for registrations, I believe that Sydney didn't have amajor glut of early registrations so I would say that the analogy in regards to getting heads together to decide where to go wil not happen before the early registration deadline - for either event.

For people paying several thousand dollars to travel, the incentive to register early is not that much of an incentive - in my opinion.

In regards to the events being equal, it may be possible that they are somewhat equal but I think history will greatly support the Chicago event. Many people will go looking for the Gay Games in 2006.

Ken