Please let Todd medal! Please let Todd medal! Please let Todd medal!

OK, enough. The two co-favorites are Yags and Plushy, obviously. My vote is for Yags - incredible artistry and flair for the dramatic, not to mention two (count 'em, TWO) quad-triple combos (4t-3t and 4t-half loop-3s). As good as he is, I wouldn't be exactly crushed if Plushenko didn't medal. I really hated his LP earlier this year - he looked like some kind of out-of-control windup doll or something, with all the crazy arm flapping. He has a new LP now, but he hasn't performed it yet in competition. Hopefully he got the hint and dropped all the flapping, wiggling, and thrusting. Also, gotta say: Dude, drop the mullet already!

As for the Americans ... Todd? Love Todd, love the guy, just love him. I love his determination, I think he has the best 3x and 3z in the business, and of course there are those incredible spins. I also think he has that sweet aw-shucks boy-next-door kind of demeanor, plus he's a Massachusetts native. I was beyond ecstatic to hear that his 4t-2t has been money, and he hit a 4t-3t in a recent practice. Timothy Goebel? As much as I marvel at his tremendous jumping ablity (tightest, cleanest rotations in skating right now), I still haven't warmed much to his skating. His "American in Paris" was a quantum-leap improvement over his previous LPs, but it's still not "genuine" to me. It's as if he's borrowed somebody else's choreography and skating style. But if he hits 4 quads, 4s-3t in the SP/3 quads in the LP, he's a shoo-in for the bronze. Michael Weiss? Used to be a big fan; can't say that I still am. His jumping used to be great; now it's just so-so. His artistry is still terrific though. I don't think MW is a horrible person or anything, but his shameless self-promotion (have you seen his official website?) and just-a-bit-too-much declarations of heterosexuality have turned me off a bit. Also, he used to be so hot before he lost the weight. Man, the guy had the chest of death! He definitely lost a lot of sex appeal with the drastic weight loss, and I must sheepishly confess that my Michael Weiss fandom has diminished proportionately.

Other skaters ... Takeshi? Good skater, but he always falls aparts. Also, he's one of the few men who flutzes, shame on him. Abt? I always liked him, but he always lacked stamina and consistency. I hear a lot of that was because of injury, however, and that he really pulled it together at Europeans. If he skates in SLC like he did at Euros, I say he's the top contender for bronze. Elvis? God, I really can't stand this man's skating. I like him as a person, but just don't like his skating. Anyway, even though he's apparently hitting all his 4t-3t combos, I still think his best days are behind him.

Comments and predictions, anyone?

The men take the ice tonight in the short program. I really hope Todd does well. I love Yags' short program & I really hope he nails it. I don't particularly care for Plushenko. While Goebel has the jumps he still lacks the artistry of the other top men. It should be a fun event.
My prediciton? Hmmm... how about after the short program, it wil be Yags, Plushenko, Eldredge, Goebel.

I'm sick of all these toe jumps. THe judges seem to be igoring that they are breaking the Zayak rule.

[quote]Originally posted by savvy:
I'm sick of all these toe jumps. THe judges seem to be igoring that they are breaking the Zayak rule.

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I agree with you on the excessiveness of toe loops. If the three big jumps/jumbo combos a skater does are the 4t-3t, 4t, and 3x-3t -- that means four of the nine planned triple/quad jumps in the program are toe loops. Yeah, it's definitely too much. But the ISU, probably in the interests of encouraging technical progress, has ruled that a quad and a triple of the same jump are considered two different jumps, so a skater can "legally" perform two quad toe loops and two triple toe loops in a program.

Which is what??? Wasn't Elaine Zayak the skater in the early 80's with half a foot????

The Zayak rule applies to all triple or quad jumps:

• A skater can repeat only two different jumps
• If a jump is repeated, it must be done in combination (for example, most women do two triple lutzes, one solo and the second one in combination with a double toe or double loop)
• A skater can do no more than three jump combinations in one program, and a combination cannot be repeated

The rule was established in response to Elaine Zayak popping triple after triple in her programs, but they were all triple salchows and triple toes.

And yes, she was the skater with the deformed foot. That was back when the competition started with "figures" and Elaine always struggled because of her foot deformity. Those early "figures" sessions must not have drawn that many spectators. How boring would that have been!

That's why they cut them. Skaters like Midori Ito and Kristi Yamaguchi really benefitted from their removal.

By the way, the way NBC is playing out the animosity that the Russians have toward each other is really funny.

Well it looks like Plushenko is out of the medals. I think Goebel got screwed on his technical marks. Were they low because of his footwork sequence?? The artistic marks were about right.

Yeah Goebel ! He trained in Cleveland (actually the rink in Lakewood, which is our "gay" suburb) LOL; and we still consider him our own He mentioned hi to Cleveland while waiting for his scores, which were appalling from Finn judge - 5th place

Didn't the Finn judge give Plushenko a 5.9 for presentation? I still think he'll medal. But if Yagudin skates like he did tonight, he owns the gold.

Sorry about Todd guys. Damn.

Yagudin skated perhaps the best men's short program I have ever seen. He was so on the money, and looked terrific in all of his technical elements. He skates like that tomorrow, and everyone else can shoot for the silver and bronze.

Tim Goebel probably skated a little stronger than the marks he got. He is like the Chinese pairs team -- his technical abilities are so strong, that his program is different than the rest of the field. Some of the judges do not mark as high for a technically dominated program. Honda did skate incredibly well though.

Shocked to see Plushenko take a tumble. He never misses in the short. Still in the hunt.

It was so sad to see how disappointed Todd was. He was really brave to go for it, and came really close to a clean landing on the quad. However, that disrupted him for the rest of the program and the standard deductions for required elements tanked his score. I wish he were in the running still.

While I am sad that Todd's Olympic Dreams are over. I am still excited about Yags being in first. I knew if he nailed the elements, he would be in first because that program is simply breathtaking/brilliant. I was surprised to hear both Yags & Plushenko openly admitting that they don't like each other. Plus the comment from Yags' former coach and Plu's present coach regarding Jealousy being a good thing was surprising to hear. The heat is on for the final skate! I still feel Yags will win the Gold, Plu will skate to the Silver & the battle for the bronze will be between Honda & Goebel. Honda is inconsistent so that's a good sign for Goebel.

Needless to say, I about died when Todd bombed out of his short program last night. Todd is such a terrific guy, beloved by all his fellow skaters and so many skating fans, and it broke my heart to see "the agony of defeat" on his face after the short. Sometimes an athlete just gets too keyed up for the Olympics [see: Browning, Kurt]. When Todd said in an interview that no one's really going to remember his national titles or world titles (beg to differ) and will only remember what you did in the Olympics, I got worried that an attitude like that would create too much self-imposed pressure. Even though he had been having terrific run-throughs and practices, it seemed like a bad omen. Someone called out from the stands, "You're a champion, Todd!" while he was in the kiss & cry, and he humbly said thank you, even though you knew he wasn't buying it. I'm hoping that one day, he will realize it's true - six national titles, one world title, and a dozen years in the elite ranks of skating definitely do make Todd Eldredge a champion. Now I just hope that with nothing to lose, Todd goes out and has the skate of his life in the long program.

As for the rest, Yagudin was spectacular and definitely deserved first place. The choreography and music were a perfect fit. He lights up the place with his footwork like no skater I've ever seen, making for a truly electric program. Props to Takeshi for keeping it together in the short, something he rarely does. I still can't believe that an elite male skater, who is capable of a quad, still "flutzes", though. Timothy Goebel deserved 3rd place - he had the most difficult (salchow-toe) and best-executed 4-3 combo of the night. He seemed a bit disappointed by the marks, but I thought they were appropriate since his footwork sequences were almost ridiculously simple. Finally, I know Plushenko's a great skater, but his choreographer must be on crack. And Plushy must be too for agreeing to skate those programs! His SP last night was Buffoonery on Ice. It was annoying to see how propped up he was by the judges, too. 5.9's for presentation with a big fall like that? Be serious.

Yags had the good fortune of drawing last in the free skate. It'll take something cataclysmic for him for lose the gold tomorrow night. Takeshi will have a meltdown because, well, he always does. I'm predicting Plushenko for silver and Goebel for bronze to round out the podium. I still see the free skate as sort of a "King of the Mountain" contest between Yags and Plushy. Even though Plushy would still get silver if he won the free skate, it would give him a helluva lotta satisfaction to stick it to his archrival Yags.

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: BoSoxRudy ]

[quote] Even though Plushy would still get silver if he won the free skate, it would give him a helluva lotta satisfaction to stick it to his archrival Yags

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I don't think Yags will let Plushy get close enough for him to "stick it" anywhere...now if it were Michael Weiss...

Go Timmy Go Timmy Bronze owner

yeahhhh Goebel best U.S. male figure skater,
Cleveland's adopted son; maybe we should rename it Cleveland:figure skating capital of the world
okay that's a bit much

we love you Tim !

Once again, Alexi was just too strong. He skated an awesome program, and his marks were superb. First time anyone has gotten that many perfect marks in an Olympic competition. (I am not sure if they were counting ice dancing. Torville and Dean got a load of them in 1984 I think.) Yags was right on, and (thanks to skating last) knew exactly what it would take to come through.

I actually thought that Tim deserved the silver, but did not expect him to get it. Yevgeni is one of the top two skaters, and really had only the slight bobble on the three jump combination. I figured the judges would play it through and give him the silver. It was much more of a true toss-up in this case.

I was surprised to see most of the men stumble at some point in their programs. It seemed like only the top three skaters ended up showing some starch in their shorts.

Ice dancing starts tomorrow. Should be interesting to see how close the results are to the suggested pre-ordained finish.

I thought the order was a good one. Yagudin was completely awesome. I'm not sure he deserved such high marks (I thought his short program was superior) but he definitely deserved the gold. I think the reason his marks were so high was because Plushenko's were ridiculously high already.

Plushenko deserved the silver though. He had a good program and he did some excellent jumping. Did anyone else catch the bitterness in his face when he was being awarded the silver? I wish NBC would learn to focus on people who are happy and not miserable.

Goebel was excellent. Very happy for him. He did a lot of great jumps, but his slow speed and lackluster footwork are really not enough to put him in the Russians' class. I thought his artistic marks were a bit low, but he definitely earned his medal.

It was nice to see a good performance from Eldridge. I wish him only the best in everything he does.

And I'm not sure I like the quad. It just seems like it shouldn't be there. But I guess as more younger skaters are taught it, it will become even more routine.

And in 1984 Torvil and Dean got some 6.0 in the figures. Then they got six more in the original dance. In the free dance 12 of the 18 marks were 6.0, including all nine for artistic impression. We'll never see that again. Since then I think Brian Orser got one in 1988, Gordeeva and Grinkov got one in 1994, there were some in the 1994 ice dancing (including one for T&D), and I have no idea about 1998.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lev Stone ]

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lev Stone ]

Yagudin's program last night was superior to tonight's. Still, I am impressed with him...thoroughly. But the twisted side of me sees him easily slipping into a Bel Ami video. I think this same vision has me pumping him from behind and wearing a Russian Army uniform.

Goebel was awesome. He deserved Silver. But he's quite young (cue chicken..ba-cawwww), and will surely have a shot at Gold in '06. I can't believe I'm actually attracted to a young squab in a perm. But the idea of plowing a nubile barely legal blonde medalist has me worked up.

All three medalists were fantastic - very impressed with their efforts and their passion towards their sport...they're true Olympians...


AU - I, for one, would appreciate if you kept those kind of comments to yourself...

Goebel's hair reminds me of 'N Sync's Justin Timberlake. And that is NOT good in this case. When Justin is in a long-hair phase, it just ain't pretty. But it's nice that he got a medal. Was he expected to?

[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
Goebel's hair reminds me of 'N Sync's Justin Timberlake. And that is NOT good in this case. When Justin is in a long-hair phase, it just ain't pretty. But it's nice that he got a medal. Was he expected to?

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After this post, I will officially change my OutSports name to "Nostradamus Rudy". From my first post: "But if he [Goebel] hits 4 quads, 4s-3t in the SP/3 quads in the LP, he's a shoo-in for the bronze." After the short: "It'll take something cataclysmic for him [Yagudin] to lose the gold tomorrow night. Takeshi will have a meltdown because, well, he always does. I'm predicting Plushenko for silver and Goebel for bronze to round out the podium." You think I can find a bookie for figure skating bets?

OK, seriously now ... Yagudin was amazing. It's gotta be tough skating last, even if it did give him the luxury of picking and choosing what jumps to go for or leave out. His coach told him before the skate that he could win gold with just one quad (true), but he went for two and hit both rock solid (he did sub in a triple salchow for a triple axel, though). I don't know if I agree with the 6.0's, but there is no doubt about this outcome.

Plushenko definitely deserved silver. Goebel skated great, but he has a long way to go before he's anywhere near the skater Plushenko is. Evgeny skates with so much more speed, and his technique, line, and carriage are impeccable. For the longest time, I tried to see why Plushenko commanded these hordes of loyal and devoted fans because I basically hated every program he's ever done. He always comes up with these "Buffoonery On Ice" numbers, like his Michael Jackson short program. But I really liked this Carmen program. He toned down his usual flamboyance a lot, and whatever excesses remained actually fit the rather dramatic music. As far as the jumps, forget the quad-triple's and quad-triple-double's, the most difficult combination of the competition was Plushenko's triple axel-half loop-triple flip -- as Scott Hamilton put it, "that is sick and twisted!"

Don't get me wrong, Timmy was great. When I think of Timmy two years ago at Nationals, where he landed 3 quads in the LP yet lost to a quad-less Michael Weiss, and compare him to the skater he is today, well, there's no comparison. One real shock, though, was seeing Goebel "flutz" his lutz! Why the heck does a guy who hits quads almost in his sleep need to cheat his triple lutz? Perhaps it was the rather odd entry to the jump, but even that shouldn't be an excuse. Either you ding him for the flutz or you ding him for violating the Zayak Rule, but it seems the judges did neither (grumble, grumble ... flutzing should be a mandatory deduction!).

Honda actually had his best major competition ever. He didn't skate as well as he needed to, but he didn't exactly have a meltdown either. For a number of reasons (flutzing being one!), I would have placed Eldredge over Honda, not that it mattered. Wow, I bet Todd missed being in the final group because no doubt his marks would have been higher. Instead, Takeshi enjoyed that luxury. I can't say I'm sad that Michael Weiss is retiring. He hit his peak two years ago (winning 2000 Nationals) and unfortunately hasn't been able to return to that level. I'd advise him to fire his choreographer, but since it's his wife Lisa, don't think that's gonna happen. But oh my God, what is up with that ridiculous "Mike Pike"? First of all, pallie, it's a Shoot The Duck, not a Mike Pike, and it's been called a Shoot The Duck for decades! Second, he showcases it, a total novice move, at the most dramatic point in his program. Mikey, it's no Charlotte! Get rid of it! Despite all that, congrats to the guy for a good skate. Hopefully, MW moves on to the pro ranks and takes his shirt off more than Candeloro. Finally, the judges told Elvis for the umpteenth time in major competitions that they just don't like his skating. But kudos to the guy for sticking it out for as long as he has, and being so successful against the odds.

PS: two final notes ... 1) the ISU stopped posting the nationalities of the judges on the scores & results site. Hmmmm, I wonder why??? 2) Scott Hamilton absolutely sucks as a commentator. How could he not point out Goebel's and Honda's egregious flutzing? How did he not notice Michael Weiss's 2-footed lutz? (instead he goes on and on about how well MW ended the program) But most of all, how the heck could he think there was any contest between Yagudin's program and Goebel's? The contest was between Yags and Plushy; Tim was nowhere in the mix. And note that Hamilton was stupid enough to take as a given that Yags conceded the free skate to Plushy (for some reason, I equate that call with Madden's advice that the Patriots kneel on the ball with 1:21 left). I'll say it again -- Scott Hamilton's a nice guy and great skater, but he makes a lousy analyst.

I was amazed by the commentary as well. Technical merit consists of more than just the number of quads landed. And it wasn't like Goebel was going to top him in artistic impression. Yagudin's marks were a bit high (as everyone is saying, his short program was more impressive), but I thought he clearly deserved to win. It was the only clean program of the night. I think Bowman was just trying to create drama in waiting for Yagudins's scores, where no reason for drama existed. The scores would probably have been lower if he hadn't been the last skater.

Plushenko's hand motions annoy me, but his jumps and spins are actually timed to the music. I think he deserved 2nd in the free skate, though I'm not sure he deserved the silver medal--I thought the marks for his short program were rather generous.

[quote]Originally posted by JC:
I think he deserved 2nd in the free skate, though I'm not sure he deserved the silver medal--I thought the marks for his short program were rather generous.

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Good point, JC, I totally agree that Plushenko was propped up in the short. Your post piqued my curiosity enough to do a "what if?" hypothetical. Keep in mind that the fall on the combination, while a big deduction, was the only flaw in his program (I personally hated it, but that doesn't necessarily get a deduction). If you drop all of Plushy's second mark 5.9's to 5.7's (the propping up was done in the presentation marks), Plushy still beats both the #5 and #6 skaters, Abt and Li.

But for the sake of argument, let's drop Plushy down to 5th, the lowest placement he got from any judge. So if Plushenko gets 2.5 (the placement of the short program is divided by two) from the short and 2.0 from the long, he ends up with 4.5. Goebel got 3rd in the short, for 1.5, and 3rd in the long, 3.0, also for 4.5. But Plushy gets the silver because the free skate ordinal is the tie-breaker.

You can argue that Plushy deserved even worse than 5th, but to do so with justification, you must have been in the arena or you get a different TV feed, because NBC didn't show Li's short program. They did show the #7, 8 and 9 guys (the veteran trio of Stojko, Weiss, and Eldredge), and as much as I hated that Michael Jackson program of Plushy's, it was better than those three.

I wonder if Yagudin and the other Olympic medallists would continue on to compete at the Nagano world championships this March... Olympic gold medallists are notorious for 'retiring' from 'amateur' competition after they win the Olympics - which is fair enough, but it would be nice to see them actually defending their gold medals four years from now.

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Jay ]

Only "official" word from Elvis and Todd, but here's what I've heard:

Yagudin: (21) definitely staying eligible for the time being, probably until Turin
Plushenko: (19) definitely eligible until Turin
Goebel: (21) definitely eligible until Turin
Eldredge: (30) already announced his retirement from eligible skating
Stojko: (29?) will compete in the World Championships in Nagano, then retire from the eligible ranks
Weiss: (25) not sure, but I think he plans on competing in Nagano also, then going "pro"

The financial boom all of skating experienced from the Tonya & Nancy fallout has ebbed somewhat, and the professional skating competitions have been hit the hardest. The money ain't what it used to be, and skaters can earn just as much, probably more, by keeping their eligibility. I'm happy as a clam that Yagudin plans on staying eligible. His rivalry with Plushenko should make for some great sparks at future competitions. Also, as much as I love Olympic-eligible figure skating, I'd rather shoot my toe off than watch cheesey professional exhibitions ... skaters past their prime doing easier de-contented programs, with garish costumes and distracting spotlights thrown in for "artistry"? I think I just vomited into my mouth.

Here's a question: where do you think Yagudin ranks in the history of great skaters? It may be premature to say, of course, since he may stick around until next olympics.

As of now... Yagudin is an innovator and on his way to becomming an important trailblazer - bring back some extremely difficult artistry and advanced technical skill. I would says he's not quite on the Dick Button/John Curry level of greatness and influence, but is definitely approaching or has approached the Kurt Browning level. In my mind, he's well past Scott Hamilton/Brian Boitano/Victor Petrenko level by virtue of winning three world championships in a row and an Olympics as well as pushing the artistic level. I still think his short program is the finest men's performance I've ever seen, but I've only been watching since 1992.

apparently i am not the only one who attended the college of dick button (genuflect quietly, please). i often have all these thoughts but considering that i bore the hell out of my non fan friends, i usually wind up keeping them to myself. since the olympic events and skaters have been so thoroughly appraised before me, and since i, by and large, agree, i will just add those things that set me a bit apart.

i have a complete blind spot regarding todd eldridge. while i tip my hat to his spins, i find him emotionally and physically uninteresting, and his choreography and costumes "corrective" at best (like a heavy person wearing slimming stripes, corrective).

on the other hand, i will mention brian boitano in two regards, one as an antidote to eldridge (see above), with glorious choreography and stunning jumps and important spiral-like spread eagles (see kwan); and also in response to the diss to professional slating. i too loathe candy coated hasbeens skating fairy tales and disney, but, when boitano went pro, he refused to surrender his athleticism, and he took his attitude with him, and forced almost the entire professional skating world to do likewise, much to the chagrin of scott hamilton and others who HATED trying to keep up with him.

professional competitions, as opposed to shows, have really added to the ice hours on tv, and allowed more of a blend of artistry and athleticism to inform the discipline. boitano may be flagging, but browning and others, undoubtedly stojko as he joins the ranks, will keep the level near that of the "amateurs" and factor in more fun elements too, like jumpin joe's gravity defying leaps.

jack, aka bandana

whoops, i forgot one other item. keep your eye's on our little timmy. boitano was once criticise for having no artistry, until a good coach and choreographer got hold of him. he spent the latter part of his career dazzling us with his artistry while maintaining his jumps (see tonneau lutz). i, for one, will never forget the short program that he introduced that with, and with that undid brian orser.

my prediction, is that since frank carrol was so fortuitously free, both he and goebel will profit from the connection, and the skating public will get a new, male, kwan to treat our sensibilities, and blow our minds.

and does anyone know what happened to naomi nori nam, a competitor of sasha cohen's. she had an injury and since the has been out of sight completely. (speaking of cohen, any odds on the first women's quad?)

jack, aka bandana

If Surya Bonaly and Midori Ito couldn't land a quad, I don't think Sasha Cohen will.

[quote]Originally posted by Lev Stone:
If Surya Bonaly and Midori Ito couldn't land a quad, I don't think Sasha Cohen will.

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Sasha Cohen is doing things at 17 that Bonaly and Ito weren't late in their careers. Let's give her a few years to work on it and then see what happens.