If your neighbor's apartment had a glitch in the front door lock, would that make it okay for you to walk in and steal his belongings? Think about what you're saying, and I'm not just asking you to be "judicious."

It's telling, of course, that you fixated on this one thing--I've seen NOTHING that shows the GOP's files were open as well. But even if they were, it stands that the Democrats did NOT steal their files, while the GOP staffers did so at will for months. Is that okay to you? Just answer that question.

That said, I'm not sure what you're talking about in terms of "racism," a term you of all people should be wary of tossing around. As I recall, you made outlandish claims about people being promised "welfare" in churches, didn't you? Do you have proof of that? I assume you didn't mean Democrats in white churches, or did you? Again, some proof. And just so you know, the Democrats have confirmed the overwhelming majority of nominees--of ALL races, religions and backgrounds, put forward by George W. Bush. I know this reality is hard for you to accept, but yep, it's reality. The last president, a Democrat, appointed people of--yep, believe it--all races, religions and backgrounds. Including homosexuals. Can you say that about the GOP, which held up far more of Clinton's nominees?

America is quite simply the greatest story in the history of civilization. We've had dark chapters, bright moments, heroes, villains, spectacular achievements, shattering defeats. Various parts of the world at different times have loved us and hated us - just as they do now. But what is important is not that the French or anyone else "loves" us, it's whether we love ourselves.

America as a country, as a people, as the world power, draws it's strength and renews itself from its diversity - that's what makes us a beacon for the world and truly unique. We fight each other constantly over "laws" and living up to our "ideals." We often fail - but the fight goes on. We have racial strife, and economic inequality, and the greatest most generous group of people the world has ever known - our middle class. There's never been a civilization quite like what we have. If mankind is to succeed, to grow to it's potential the first thing that must happen is that we all get along in an environment based on equality - and America is the closest thing the world has to that environment.

I love my country, but recognize it for what it is now, what is has been, and what it will be. We are at the zenith of world power, how lucky we all are to be right here, right now.

TomFord
Member
Member # 1846

posted May 11, 2004 01:17 PM
I could be wrong, but the chest-thumping "where would the world be without the U.S.?" types are generally losers who have to bray about achievements that they personally had no involvement with in an attempt to make their ordinary existence more meaningful. I've been guilty of this in the past.


In response to this...once again I was only asking the question and not making a statement...but I'm glad to see you have made the statement in the past and recognize yourself as a loser.

I will agree that that the most important thing is how we deal with ourselves--and not whether we love ourselves, but whether we are willing, despite internal and external threats, to be true to the ideals set forward at our founding, some of which took a century or more to realize.

But think about it like this: the United States is only 228 years old, and has accomplished quite a bit in those two and one-quarter centuries. If we look at the world from a longer-term historical perspective, however, numerous nations have had a far greater impact on the world, including our mother country, Great Britain, whose history goes back almost a millennium (1066, if you date it from the Norman Conquest). France, China, Spain, Portugal, Spain, the Ottoman Empire, Egypt, Greece (which set one of the earliest templates for our own experiment in democracy), the Roman Empire, Phoenicia, etc., have all profoundly mapped their experiences, their views, their cultures, onto this earth. In the long span of human experience, we are one of many--and we shouldn't ever forget that.

I do understand the context of American exceptionalism; we often don't learn much history in school, so we are given to believe that we are the most important thing that ever happened. We ARE currently the leader of the free world, the richest nation, the most powerful nation, the nation whose political system--at least in its ideal form--is the best any free people can hope for. As a nation, perhaps if we don't remain so narrowly focused and try to learn from the best (and worst) examples of the past, we can continue to be the leader of the free world.

fantomas wrote:
If we look at the world from a longer-term historical perspective, however, numerous nations have had a far greater impact on the world, including our mother country, Great Britain, whose history goes back almost a millennium (1066, if you date it from the Norman Conquest). France, China, Spain, Portugal, Spain, the Ottoman Empire, Egypt, Greece (which set one of the earliest templates for our own experiment in democracy), the Roman Empire, Phoenicia, etc., have all profoundly mapped their experiences, their views, their cultures, onto this earth. In the long span of human experience, we are one of many--and we shouldn't ever forget that.

Many of the nations you list have contributed greatly to the civilization of man – but nothing on the scale of the United States. Splitting the atom, putting a man on the moon, establishing the first broad middle class, establishment of a republican form of government covering millions of people based on equality for all, the list goes on and on – no other country has ever accomplished these things on the scale that we have. Many have had an impact, but nothing like the American footprint.

Before the United States no other country laid out the “rights” of its citizens as Jefferson said “in terms so plain and firm as to command their assent.” The Declaration of Independence, our Bill of Rights, and our Constitution, in my opinion, are the most significant political documents in the history of man. Before the United States no other country tried to live up to the ideals of its political documents to the point of tearing itself apart in civil war to extend “rights” to an oppressed minority. The Civil War began as an effort to preserve Union, but ended up being a moral struggle for the soul of our Nation. No other country extended in actual fact equal rights to women or minorities. Before the United States no other country attempted to educate its “poor.” No other country “gave” away land title to its people - the list of firsts, the list of “exceptionalisms” goes on and on.

The United States had the capacity to enslave the world at the end of World War II, and chose not to. If the Russians, the British, even the French had had a monopoly on the bomb they would have used it to expand or preserve their empires – we did not.

No other country can be compared to America’s impact on a global scale of every culture, every language, every aspect of man’s existence. No other country has been held as a beacon for all mankind like America has. No other country sent its soldiers to foreign lands to free them, rather than to enslave and dominate them before America. Our impact on the future of man, the standard of living of peoples everywhere, our political ideals, our concepts of human rights, these things will last long after we have passed the torch of global leadership to some other country or group of countries and all this in less than 230 years. We have defined, expanded, moved the bar if you will, for what it means to be a “civilized” country unlike any before.

Since so many of these truths, these “exceptionalisms” are self evident, I want to also acknowledge we have lots of dirt on our white hat. The genocide of our indigenous peoples, the excesses of our corporate prowess both at home and abroad, the destruction through rampant consumption of the Earth’s natural resources, subversive political activities during and after the Cold War, here too the list of horrors could go on and on – and perhaps ultimately will be the dominate definition of America’s legacy to the world. People like me, (and I believe many others on this board) will work to see that that is not the case, but only time will tell if we are successful.

My point is the story in its entirety of the United States - the good, the great, the bad, the horrific – is quite simply the greatest, the grandest epic in the history of man - and it’s still evolving.

QUOTE

fantomas
F Many nations admire the US and our successful experiment with democracy, the oldest continuous example in the world, .....

Please check the facts on this idea that USA is the oldest continous democracy as

1. Icelandic Althing dates from the year 930. Which makes that state continuous for a great deal longer
2. Great Britain has has a parliament since Magna carta from 1215 and Isle of Man for at least as long so one should be careful about assuming USA is the oldest,

3. If you do not consider the ignoring of the rights of women or African Americans as invalidating a democracy, if you do not then was South Africa a democracy under Apartheid..?

As for the USA, there is much to admire within it, and some things to criticise, as with all countries and peoples throughout history.
Criticism does not make one an enemy of your USA State but an engagement in a right to free speech and difference. I Hope that is what is being fought for in Iraq right now, cuz lots of US teenagers and youth now in active service are dying.
Smoothboy