I'll start a new thread for this if I may because the other thread had got bogged down in partisan US stuff.

This really is a massive shock. No opinion polls had the right-wing "Partido Popular" Govt in any danger of losing. But the bombing changed everything and the Socialists (who can hardly believe it) are back in power after 8 years.

Soc. 163 seats (+38) 44.5% votes (+8.5%)
Cons. 148 (-35) 37.7% (-6.8%)

[ March 14, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: jamesw ]

I went to a lecture given this afternoon by General Tommy Franks, who reminded us all that this war on terrorism is (a) global and ( not fought with police action or diplomacy, but military action decided by leaders answerable to their people.

I just pray that the Spanish remember this. Fighting terrorism with elected officials who try to negotiate is a sure sign the terrorists have won.

I am all for democracy, and do believe that the Spanish people felt the government had drawn them into something which they did not support, BUT...I really hope the Socialists (who, I must say, have done a horrible job in nearly every nation they've run, except Britain--Labour is the British version of the Socialist Party, right?) do not go the other route and simply react against W and the level of cooperation that has developed between Spain, the US, and the EU in general on addressing the problem of Islamic terrorism.

The sad thing for Spain is that because of its history and its antagonistic relationship with Morocco, Al Qaeda and its affiliates had it in their crosshairs anyway, so they have used the Iraq War II as an excuse. But radically pulling back isn't going to save Spain at this point, so the new government HAS to continue its hard work on combatting Islamic terrorism; there can be no turning back now.

I agree with you, FT. I am very worried that Spain's new government is, in a sense, a victory for the terrorists.

Terrorists cannot raise up an army against such nations, including the United States, so the only other way they can affect a government and the way of life of a country is through terrorism. I fear this is how they're succeeding in Spain and elsewhere.

It's difficult to raise up an army to fight anything when 80-90% of the population disagrees with the cause as the Spaniards have repeatedly told their leaders concerning the war on Iraq by the US.

Whatever government occurs in Spain will be fighting terrorism. But they will not necessarily agree with unilaterally invading another country. This doesn't necessarily mean they are weak on terrorism. Perhaps quite the opposite.

It also worth noting that this attack came just as a renewed effort is being made to get OBL. Obviously both sides are feeling pressure to act in this battle. Both are using apocalytic rhetoric and seek a non-negotiable solution. A lot of people may be hurt while this fight goes on.

So far the fight against terrorism seems to be creating more terrorists than it is eliminating. The population growth in poor, radicalized regions of the world is far greater than the number we kill or capture and the democratization process appears shaky at best so far. The process has even been reversed in Iran which had some hope.

I think our policies and focus in the Middle East are dead wrong. A lot of people are suffering unnecessarily for it.

[ March 14, 2004, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

In seven-and-a-half months: Conservative Candidate Concedes Defeate in United States.

"I fear this is how they're (terrorists)succeeding in Spain and elsewhere." (MIB)

Hey wait a minute... I thought WE (USA) are winning the War on terror.

Afterall, Rummy and Condi say so!

[ March 14, 2004, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: ironjohn8 ]

Just more evidence that, like it or not, intentionally or not, anti-war=pro-al Qaeda. At any rate, Spain's a bunch of pussies. At this point I hope al Qaeda invades them and converts them all to Islam, putting Spanish women in burkas and making everybody face Mecca and pray a few thousand times a day. They deserve it for caving in to these f**kers.

Hey, Dems - maybe if we have another terrorist attack here in the US it will help the Kerry campaign! Keep your fingers crossed...

William, you should be hailing this as a victory against terrorists, the people have spoken, democracy in spain is alive and well.

We won't need another attack. Bush has done a good enough job of that himself. And hopefully the voters here will follow Spain's lead.

[ March 15, 2004, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: Denver Fan ]

William said maybe if we have another terrorist attack in the U.S., it will help Kerry. Keep your fingers crossed . That's our William, ever the positive optimist.

I love this - Spain is targeted because they're a US ally in Iraq, and yet the US has "unilaterally" invaded another country, and thus can have no allies in the endeavor. Interesting.

You want voters here to react to a terrorist attack by voting out the party in office. Talk about optimism.

A few other things...

1) I hate it when people tell me what I "should" think. That's so Naziesque and patronizing. You can think the sky is green as far as I'm concerned, but don't tell me to think it.

2) Saddam Hussein's Iraq held elections. He generally won. News outlets here reported his "overwhelming" victory with little to no irony.

3) Are you honestly so naive as to think the terrorists' overriding goal is to bring a halt to democracy? They want Islamic theocracies in which we all celebrate Ramadan and stone Christians and homosexuals to death. This whole idea that terrorists somewhere are say, "Wow, Spain had an election, I guess they showed us" is just absurd.

4) If the people of Spain were so adamantly opposed to the war in Iraq and the ruling party that was supporting it, why wasn't the socialist candidate winning in a landslide before the bombings? The people of Spain saw these attacks, heard that they were the terrorists' revenge for Spain's support of the war, tucked their tails and ran. The terrorists won this one. Again, Spain's just a bunch of pussies. They're worthless people. We should send their troops home, if they haven't all surrendered already.

Then why are you a Repub? They are always telling people how to think.

What about: "You're either with us or against us". In other words: don't protest, don't speak out against "us", just submit, pay your taxes, and do as you are told.

I'm trying to now figure out which country has less of a spine.... spain or frenchie?

Actually if the wusses in Spain REALLY liked the commies, it would not have been such a shock that they won. This is a knee jerk reaction by the stupid people of spain.

Agree with the Iraq war or not... these terrorists are NOT going away. We all know this. Terrorist attacks will occur on the west if you side with Iraq or not.

So to vote out a party just because this has occured and put in a bunch of people no one wanted to vote for just a week ago.. well...i find it sad.

Anyone who thinks the commies actually WON the election.. rather than have it fall on their laps and won out of fear... you would be an idiot. But we do have alot of them around here.. so carry on.

There's something stomach-churning about the new PM vowing to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq and pledging to develop better ties with Morocco right off the bat (some of the suspects are Moroccan). Talk about appeasement. I would have hoped that the bombings would make them all the more eager to have a govt that was committed to fight terrorism. Not one ready to tuck tail and kiss the ass of anyone with the hope that there won't be more attacks.

That said, it's hard to tell how much of it is a reaction to the conservatives lying to them about who was responsible.

At least it was a legitimate election in Spain unlike the Supremem Court appointment we had in 2000. Why all the bitterness and hate, FillyPhan? Why?

Speaking of spines...

I notice that all the pro war cheerleaders are still clicking away on their keyboards all safe and snug, all for the war as long as someone else is doing the fighting.

"True American Patriots" indeed.

This attack had nothing to do with Iraq. This attack had nothing to do with 9-11. This attack had nothing to do with the spinless french.

This attack has everything to do with a bunch of idiots who hide behind some misguided book of God that they think is better than our way of thinking in the west.

Spain can pull out of Iraq if they wish... It will NOT make them any less of a target than they were before from these idiots.

Agree/Disagree with Iraq all you wish.. but.. appeasement does not work with these people.. a bullet in their sand loving misguided head does.

The best thing about being a True American Patriot is this... When someone attacks this country we do not run and hide. That much is clear from our history.

Spain has allowed fear to grip their country, and they will pay for that over the next few years.

When did Iraq attack us? Did I miss something?

Go ask bubba, he only bombed them a few times for not attacking us either.

[ March 15, 2004, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]

This is extremely repellant. I know you're stretching for humor, but please don't wish this on our country, even as a joke. Even if you don't give a damn about the thousands of people who were slain, many of us do.

Also, your misogyny is really outrageous. So the Spanish people, through their democratic process, decide they are going to call the government to account--and you choose to label them with a vulgar term for womens' genitals. Yep, democracy's only convenient when it's in W's interests...pathetic!

As I said, there's no turning back for Spain, so even if they pull out of Iraq, they're still going to have to continue to deal with the threat of Islamic terrorism. Spain was one of the staging grounds, along with Germany, for 9/11. They know this. They don't want it (or the 3/11 tragedy they experienced) to happen again.

Just like Bush is trying to put a false fear in Americans to vote for him. I agree, we should not let fear force us into voting for the Chimp!

Boooob-y....

I bet when you wake up 2 minutes late in the morning you blame it on W.

W or Kerry can be president and this stuff is not going to go away. All of you Hate W so damn much that if someone sneezes anywhere in the world it is his fault... well get over it.

Any reasonable person just needs to look at the polls and they can easily tell that the new spanish govt was put inplace due to the fear of the people based on the terrorist attack... even you are not that stupid as to not see this, are you?

Or are all of you W haters going to turn the spanish election into an anti-w campaign?

I know the answer to that.

You know me so well, FillyPhan. I'm hungry right now and I can't go to lunch for 10 more minutes and I blame that on W, too. You should see my "Blame W" list it's longer than...

fantomas: the issue isn't the democratic process at work in Spain. That process was never in doubt. It's that their response signals a clear message to terrorists everywhere:

As in: Guess what? Your tactics work! Keep it up and soon you'll have soft-on-terror, olive-branch extending PMs like this socialist weakling all across Europe. If we have a govt that will back the real fight against terror (which the U.S., along with the U.K., leads), all you have to do is bomb us a few days before an election and we'll vote in someone who will pull troops out and will apologize for taking a principled stand in the fight against terrorists (and, yes, the Iraq war was part of this).

What does that mean for the U.S. shortly before November?

And the idea that Spain's decision is justified because they don't want the 3/11 tragedy to happen again is just silly. Like terrorists are that easy. You really think that al-Queda is satisfied with this outcome? That this won't embolden them to step up attacks? That they somehow got a final result that they're happy with? That they'll cease all operations in Spain?

3/11 was just the start of it. I bet this emboldens them. And I bet Spain will regret these election results once they've come to their senses. It would be one thing if the socialist winner's first response upon winning was his commitment to the fight against terrorism. With 200 dead and 1500 injured, you'd think his harshest words would be for al-Queda. But all we get is an apology for the Iraq war, criticism of the U.S., troops being pulled out of Iraq, and "dialogue" being opened with the very nations that the bombers come from. Nuts.

[ March 15, 2004, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: TomFord ]

So re-(s)electing Shrub will not keep us safe from terrorism? Finally, we find some common ground.

I have 2 points to make.

First. No One. I repeat. No One should ever with another 9/11 on any country. I lost a friend at the WTC, who was working for Cantor Fitzgerald. His body was never found, his wife and daughter had no body to bury, no place to say good bye. My pain at losing one of my best friends, who had remained friends with me since we were 5, PALES in comparison to what his widow went, and is going through.

Second. Being Anti-war does NOT make a person pro Al-Quaida. One would expect that kind of Bubba talk from Bush, or Rumsfeld, or Cheney, but not someone with intelligence.

Third. I am Canadian, and as much as I detested our now retired prime minister Jean Chretien, I agree 100% with his decision not to join the US in Iraq.

We were already in Afghanistan, Lebanon, Boznia, Cyprus, Egypt, East Timor, and a couple of other countries. We might be out of Egypt and East Timor now I beleive.

The difference? All of the countries above had the backing of the UN.

BUT.

And I repeat it.

BUT . If Spain were to withdraw from Iraq now, then the terrorists will have won, and other countries in the Alliance will then be targets.

Unfortunately, Spain, in it's blind allegiance to the US, has painted themselves into a corner.

But NEVER associate dessent (sp) with pro Al-Qaida views.

It's kind of like the boy who cryed wolf. When there really is a connection, people wont beleive you.

There is one thing that doesn't connect for me.

Last week, the US said that it was keeping it's threat level at yellow due to the decline in the amount of "chatter".

A member of the EU terrorism team said exactly the opposite, that there was increased chatter in the past few months, and said that Spain was a target

Who's not telling someone. Is the "chatter" that matters only for the US? Does the threat level only matter when it's the US? Shouldn't the US care about their "allies"?

Something doesn't add up.

Just like 9/11 the U.S. government knows everything going on before it happens. Just like Ashcroft and Rumsfeld who both suddenly stopped flying commercial airlines the summer before 9/11. They knew.

Amen brother. Ironically those that suggest such drivel are usually the biggest chickenhawks. So brave when they can sit on the sidelines but not interested in fighting the fight - "other priorities" ect.

Wow boob, you've made some insane claims before, but that one takes the cake.

So if we think that they are planning to do something in Spain, why would that effect our level here? What more can you do but to warn spain to be on the lookout for it.

Really, you're question should be directed at the EU.. you just said they knew something was planned to happen to spain... but what did they to do help?

You see, thats the "blame america" crowd at work right there... The EU knew, but somehow W is to blame... good job guys.

You libs just dont understand something... there ARE bad people in the world. We cant sit down hold hands and sing "happy songs" together...

More on Spain still going to have to continue to deal with the threat of Islamic terrorism. fantomas: I now see you meant your "they don't want it (or the 3/11 tragedy they experienced) to happen again" comment was to back up the idea that they wouldn't stop fighting terrorism.

Fair enough. But, since the fighting words out of the new PM are all about how misguided the U.S. was in Iraq, I doubt it. The PM's tactics are more like: we're sorry, we get it now, we're pulling out, please leave us alone now. You'd think that with his people killed, he'd be all the more resolved to back the U.S. since we're the ones leading the international fight against al-Queda.

And what really sucks is that all our attempts to have allies the world over joining this fight will be more difficult as govts fear reprisals like 3/11 if they side with the U.S. This is a huge blow to the fight against al-Queda.

That's why we are doing everything we can to get the rabid monkey out of The White House before he shits all over everything.

Don't worry. Kerry is doing that fine all by himself. This weekend, he told Tom Brokaw that "terrorism is less of a military matter and more of a law enforcement matter."

No it's not! Terrorism is a war for the military to handle, and not law enforcement. Our police departments and the FBI are busy enough, with the latter assisting in several respects, but the war on terror is a military situation.

Kerry's statement alone is enough to disqualify him from the presidency. This country cannot afford to elect someone who refuses to understand how to carry out the federal government's #1 responsibility, that being to protect and defend its citizens.

[ March 15, 2004, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]

One thing that should disqualify Bush from running for president is how he has turned his back on fire fighters across this country after promising to help them right after 9/11 then pulled back promised funding. That's just in case if you were wondering why you never see any fire fighter endorsement signs at Bush rallies--they are all at Kerry's!

This is beautiful!

I keep looking for the dark clouds in this & still can't see any. The Spanish defied the psychopaths who carried out the train station attacks by turning out to vote in high numbers. The electorate dealt an unequivocal repudiation to George W. Bush & his little adventure in Iraq. They rejected a government that they felt had lied to them & withheld information for political purposes. They rejected a government that, needlessly & against their wishes, led them into a war/occupation against a country that was no threat to them, & in so doing placed the Spanish people in the firing line--"your war, our corpses" the demonstrators chanted at Aznar on Sunday.

All I hear today are words like "cowards", "weasels", "surrender", "cut & run", etc. Amazing how empathy for Spain after these hideous attacks can so quickly turn into scorn. Today it is so gratifying to know that there are millions, billions of people who don't think the way Americans do.

Hopefully Tony Blair is next.

[ March 15, 2004, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: BillyBones ]

Maybe the New PM of Spain can send flowers and a fruit basket to Al Queda? Throw in a nice card that says, thanks for the bombs, you got me elected...

That will show them.

You people have no back bone. You all live in some pretend world. If anything Al Queda sees them as an easier target now...

Are you saying we live in the same pretend world where information is made up and the world is lied to? Huh.

I can see the Conservatives already have their pithy little comments selected when John F. Kerry wins in November. "Be sure to say 'Thank you, terrorists!' before they blow you up" "The terrorists have won!" Get real, you little Filly!

[ March 15, 2004, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: bobby78751 ]

A shout-out from atop the high horse, I see. How lovely. So frustrating, I was trying to insult you all but, true to form, most of you are too self-righteous to get it, or at least too busy busting out with these solemn yet incisive declarations that yes, in fact, the 9/11 attacks were, indeed, bad. Profiles in courage, I tell you. I can't wait to hear the astonishing discoveries you all will stumble upon next. Hear ye, hear ye! Tuberculosis is bad! So was Gigli! Even if I don't give a damn about the tens of filmgoers who were bored by it, well by golly, fantomas does!

For the dumb at heart, let me spell it out: Terrorist attack in Spain=victory for anti-war leftists. Democrats have gotta be hoping for the same thing here. I personally am not, because (thank goodness) I'm not a Democrat, to put it mildly. At this point bad news benefits Democrats. Good news benefits Republicans. There's no denying that.

Good to see you're always so offended when somebody uses this term...

Use Ctrl+F to search for "puss"

BillyBones: If that's what they want, what can we do? But now the person they elected needs to figure out how to respond to terrorists who killed their civilians. And I don't think blaming the U.S. and the conservative party PM is an adequate response.

After all, what will happen if al-Queda wants to send them another message that they're unhappy? What happens when the socialist PM's govt tries the people responsible for 3/11. Let's say they're given life sentences. If al-Queda doesn't like that, and bombs more Spanish civilians to teach them another lesson, what will they vote to do then?

The truth favors Democrats, lies favor the right-wing. Al-Quaida can use many of these groups to help them out through out the world, and they arent as stupid as Bush, such as the Columbian Drug Lords and the IRA. Saddam was never an allie of Al-Quaeda, if anything him being ousted helps their cause, and creates a new breeding ground in Iraq for Al-Quaeda and a new way of isolating the United States. If we wanted to concentrate on the war on terrorism, we should have been looking at Saudi Arabia, not Bush's personal interest in Iraq.

And after Spain has just had to experience their own trajedy of 3/11, it is in very poor taste to be using the term pussy etc, in description of the country.

[ March 15, 2004, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: CnSEA ]

Put yellow ribbons on and have a peace march with a bunch of unshowered commies....

[ March 15, 2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]

Lklsimcoe:--re: chatter. Intelligence failures are just that--failures. On the scale we're dealing with (al-Queda members known and unknown all around the world), the failures are almost understandable. We can't listen to every conversation we need to. We can't even understand the import of the ones we do listen to. And sometimes we just have f**k ups of the first order protecting us who, despite reports in front of them that men from Saudi Arabia were enrolling in flight schools to learn how to fly--but not how to land--planes, they still can't figure out what to make of the info. Part of it is a training issue: we're still figuring out how to respond, and how to read and intercept messages.

But Bobby's idea that we knew something was going to happen and we didn't do anything is ludicrous.

Think of what it takes to stop something as pedestrian as a backpack. Take Penn Station in New York. There's a bag check. A really casual bag check. Anyone who has a train pass can check in a bag for a few hours at a time. The bags aren't screened. What level of chatter will Homeland Security have to overhear if some nut or a terrorist decides to check in a bag with bombs? Not a whole lot. The whole operation could be planned without a single phone call, letter or email to be intercepted.

[ March 15, 2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: TomFord ]

Allie? Trajedy? If you're going to call somebody "stupid," you might want to check your spelling. Normally, I wouldn't care, but those who live in glass hauses shuddn't throe stonez.

Wow, I thought yellow ribbons were what soldiers' families tie on trees. You've just insulted yet another part of America, Little Filly.

[quote]William1865:
[quote] Normally, I wouldn't care, but those who live in glass hauses shuddn't throe stonez. [/quote]hauses? What are we having a spelling bee? I guess when your arguments are stupid and cant be backed up you must resort to being a critic of one's spelling. And start throwing stones a glass hauses
Lets all hear it for William! He knows how to spell! We are so proud of you William.

[ March 15, 2004, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: CnSEA ]

If America votes Bush for President THIS is a country of pussies!

Dear Al Queda,

Recently you and a few of your friends paid a visit to my fine country of Spain. For months now i have been running on the anti-war movement. The actions your group has done in my country has helped the people see all the wrong they have done throughout the world. It was your actions that allowed them the strength to hit that vote for me. I thank you very much for this. I mean just days before i was losing in the polls by a considerable margin.

You changed all of that. I give you my thanks for all you have done. Let me know if i can be of any further assistance to you.

Hugs and kisses,

Jose Luis Rodriguez.

PS a Mr. Kerry called to ask if there was anything you could do to help him out?