There are a lot of religious folks on this board that I'd love to hear from on this. I was raised in a Mormon home but am now agnostic.
I'd like to figure out the purpose religion serves in people's lives, particularly if they're gay. It seems like all of the benefits of religion (besides fellowship) can be achieved without subscribing to organized religion. There are plenty of spiritual people I know who do just that.
Given that most religious institutions, especially Judeo-Christian ones, claim that they're the only true way to God and that The Bible is the final word on things, how do people reconcile their homosexuality with an institution that believes that they are inherently flawed?
Also, I find that a lot of people, gay and straight, practice what a friend of mine called "cafeteria-style" religion, in that they were selective about which parts of the religion they subscibed to. For example, my friend agrees with many aspects of her Catholic upbringing but disagrees with the Pope on abortion. She has no conflicts with that. While to me, that position is untenable. The Catholic church isn't a democracy. Its members don't get to decide independently or vote on definitions of morality. One of the foundations of religion, as I understand it, is that God's word is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. It's not changeable. If that weren't the case, why not replace religion with secular law altogether?
Do people practice religion because, unlike science which tries to explain how the world works, religion answers the question of why the world exists and who created it?
Full Version: The Purpose of Religion
Today's religion is a la carte for most.
I think most people subscribe to it because they feel a need to be part of a social group that feels the same way they do. Some also need it as a spiritual center or a way to feel that they can leave the harshness of reality.
Then you have the fanatics. They subscribe to it as an excuse to demean everyone else who doesnt think the same way they do. They use it for power. They use it to kill in God's name (and that goes for all religions!). They use it to gain money. They use it because theyre just plain ignorant. The same reasons all power hungry people have used it as a tool since the dawn of man.
I personally am lucky to have never been forced to go to church or be part of any religion (because my family only uses it when they know theyre about to die and suddenly become Christians as a safeguard.) I would fall in the agnostic area now myself. Some people condemn me for that. It didnt come in handy when I was a Cub Scout. But I know plenty of people who WERE Catholic, and WERE Baptist and so on. What made them leave? Probably my previous paragraph.
I think most people subscribe to it because they feel a need to be part of a social group that feels the same way they do. Some also need it as a spiritual center or a way to feel that they can leave the harshness of reality.
Then you have the fanatics. They subscribe to it as an excuse to demean everyone else who doesnt think the same way they do. They use it for power. They use it to kill in God's name (and that goes for all religions!). They use it to gain money. They use it because theyre just plain ignorant. The same reasons all power hungry people have used it as a tool since the dawn of man.
I personally am lucky to have never been forced to go to church or be part of any religion (because my family only uses it when they know theyre about to die and suddenly become Christians as a safeguard.) I would fall in the agnostic area now myself. Some people condemn me for that. It didnt come in handy when I was a Cub Scout. But I know plenty of people who WERE Catholic, and WERE Baptist and so on. What made them leave? Probably my previous paragraph.
I think we are all born with an inner call toward God. Most of what we do with relationships and recreation is an attempt to fill that call without God, but, ultimately, we have to find God. Our search for "religion" is a search for a set of symbols or rituals which somehow speak God's name to us. As a Christian, I think that Jesus is God's call to us, and that we stumble along in our lives trying to find our way to Him. Sometimes, organizized churches can even help, but they only matter if they help people perform those rituals which help them make God present in their lives.
For me religion is important because it is part of my acknowledgement that there is something in this universe bigger than myself. It affirms my belief that we (people, the earth, nature, everything) had to have some beginning (the "big bang" doesn't cut it for me) and that all the perfections and arrangements of natural law could only point to something of divine origin. Religion is also part of my belief system that life has a meaning, that we are all here for a reason. I cannot, and will not believe that we simply live a life, die, and then our remains rot in the ground, and thats it. I believe that this life is just a temporary place, a testing ground, where our decisions and actions will determine where we spend our eternal consciousness.
Does religion have its shortcomings and negatives? Sure it does. That's because, despite God's creation being perfect, humans are not. The worldly church and all its human participants, from the Pope to "Joe Bible Thumper", are imperfect, corrupted by the world and our own sins. But many people see the church and its members as representative of religion. But I think each person's religion has to be an individual relationship with God, formulated by your own experiences in life with the church as a guide, but not the law.
I think many of our "sins" are caused by human desires (most people want to be better looking, be richer, more successful, better athletes, etc.)--we are always longing for a state of perfection that we can never achieve in this life on earth. But most religions, including Christianiy give us this promise of perfection and its very simple to earn. Unfortunately, many people would rather ignore that idea all together, because its even easier to just do whatever one wants in this life without recognizing any consequence. Maybe the ideas of sacrificing for something better, reaping what your sow, and nothing worthwhile is ever easy are all pertinent here.
As far as reconcilling my homosexuality with my religious beliefs. Well, it has taken a long time and I'm not sure I've even completely reconcilled them. Mostly because I'm not going to just say, well I enjoy sex with men, therefore it can't be bad or sinful. Religion expects a level of morality and self control. To deny that and embrace an attitude of "if it feels good, do it" is to deny my initial notion of acknowledging something in this universe bigger than myself. Have I faltered on my own beliefs? Yes and as a result it has cheapened sex. But I do believe that sex with someone you love, regardless of the gender, can be without fault.
Does religion have its shortcomings and negatives? Sure it does. That's because, despite God's creation being perfect, humans are not. The worldly church and all its human participants, from the Pope to "Joe Bible Thumper", are imperfect, corrupted by the world and our own sins. But many people see the church and its members as representative of religion. But I think each person's religion has to be an individual relationship with God, formulated by your own experiences in life with the church as a guide, but not the law.
I think many of our "sins" are caused by human desires (most people want to be better looking, be richer, more successful, better athletes, etc.)--we are always longing for a state of perfection that we can never achieve in this life on earth. But most religions, including Christianiy give us this promise of perfection and its very simple to earn. Unfortunately, many people would rather ignore that idea all together, because its even easier to just do whatever one wants in this life without recognizing any consequence. Maybe the ideas of sacrificing for something better, reaping what your sow, and nothing worthwhile is ever easy are all pertinent here.
As far as reconcilling my homosexuality with my religious beliefs. Well, it has taken a long time and I'm not sure I've even completely reconcilled them. Mostly because I'm not going to just say, well I enjoy sex with men, therefore it can't be bad or sinful. Religion expects a level of morality and self control. To deny that and embrace an attitude of "if it feels good, do it" is to deny my initial notion of acknowledging something in this universe bigger than myself. Have I faltered on my own beliefs? Yes and as a result it has cheapened sex. But I do believe that sex with someone you love, regardless of the gender, can be without fault.
DallasUNC, I suspect that you're right about the social aspect of religiosity. What confuses me about it is that it seems illogical to maintain membership in a group if, as I suspect, most people have strong conflicts with some part of the group they're a member of, e.g. contraception for Catholics, AND they have no method of changing the tenets of the group they disagree with, i.e. religion isn't democratic.
I wonder why people don't just find some other social group that's more in line with their belief system. Don't all Judeo-Christian religions say that their religious leader's word is unerring? Maybe not. But regardless, humans aren't always logical, so I suppose I shouldn't be perplexed by that.
HotlantaTarHeel and skjpm, I understand the desire to find a higher power, but I'm wondering why not be individually spiritual instead of a part of religion? If religion is ultimately about one's personal, individual relationship with God, why bother supporting religion? Doesn't religion attempt to define your relationship with God for you, e.g. by saying that homosexuality is wrong? Since all religions impose one person as a spiritual leader for its members, doesn't that diminish one's personal responsibility to cultivate a relationship with God for himself?
I wonder why people don't just find some other social group that's more in line with their belief system. Don't all Judeo-Christian religions say that their religious leader's word is unerring? Maybe not. But regardless, humans aren't always logical, so I suppose I shouldn't be perplexed by that.
HotlantaTarHeel and skjpm, I understand the desire to find a higher power, but I'm wondering why not be individually spiritual instead of a part of religion? If religion is ultimately about one's personal, individual relationship with God, why bother supporting religion? Doesn't religion attempt to define your relationship with God for you, e.g. by saying that homosexuality is wrong? Since all religions impose one person as a spiritual leader for its members, doesn't that diminish one's personal responsibility to cultivate a relationship with God for himself?
Pierre, the reason for being part of a church community, is that the "journey" can be made easier with fellowship and support from those of similar beliefs. Your relationship with God may be individually based, but you can still have a family to learn from and grow with. I don't think its necessary to be a member of an organized religion, but if not, then where do the tenets or your beliefs originate from?
As far as every religion having a spiritual leader--I'm not sure that's true. I don't think that Protestant denominations have any one spiritual leader. Individual churches may have a minister, viewed as the "shepard", but their role is a spiritual guide and not one who determines theology.
As far as every religion having a spiritual leader--I'm not sure that's true. I don't think that Protestant denominations have any one spiritual leader. Individual churches may have a minister, viewed as the "shepard", but their role is a spiritual guide and not one who determines theology.
I think religion is changeable. That's why we have the old testament and the new testement. If we lived exactly as the bible expects, we wouldn't last very long. The world just isn't the same as it was during biblical times.
I also don't think everyone is born with an "inner calling" to god. I think religion is drilled into us as we grow up. We are conditioned to believe that their is a god who is watching us and that their will be consequences for our sins. Many people end up fearing god, feeling guilty and even rejecting religion because religious expectations seem too high to achieve.
With that said, religion also provides many people comfort in knowing that a higher power is guiding us and comforting us during difficult times. There is a lot of good sound advice in scripture and many people make many important decisions based on biblical scripture. Religion brings people together. Some people go to church for that feeling of community. Some people go to church to pray, sing and socialize. Other people do it just because it is something they've always done. When I was a kid, I'd see people in church every Sunday who were fooling around on their spouse, doing drugs, driving drunk, etc. I'd see them in church every Sunday but then I'd see them outside of church up to their old tricks.
I also think humans have a need to believe in a higher power. It gives many of us hope that their is something better for us after we leave the planet. It helps us feel that a higher power can assist us when feel things are getting out of control.
My view of religion has changed so much as I've grown older. I don't believe everything churches say and I also read more of the bible (instead of taking what the preacher says as fact) and I recognize/question scripture that is inconsistant. I find that many religious people, in particular, the ones that don't like homosexuals don't read the bible that much. They are not up on scripture but instead just blindly follow the direction of today's religion.
As a result, I do not belong to any organized religion but I do consider myself very spiritual. I just feel badly for people that rely on the church for guidence. I feel they are being misled into individual's opinions/versions about what the bible says.
[ July 01, 2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Jorel ]
I also don't think everyone is born with an "inner calling" to god. I think religion is drilled into us as we grow up. We are conditioned to believe that their is a god who is watching us and that their will be consequences for our sins. Many people end up fearing god, feeling guilty and even rejecting religion because religious expectations seem too high to achieve.
With that said, religion also provides many people comfort in knowing that a higher power is guiding us and comforting us during difficult times. There is a lot of good sound advice in scripture and many people make many important decisions based on biblical scripture. Religion brings people together. Some people go to church for that feeling of community. Some people go to church to pray, sing and socialize. Other people do it just because it is something they've always done. When I was a kid, I'd see people in church every Sunday who were fooling around on their spouse, doing drugs, driving drunk, etc. I'd see them in church every Sunday but then I'd see them outside of church up to their old tricks.
I also think humans have a need to believe in a higher power. It gives many of us hope that their is something better for us after we leave the planet. It helps us feel that a higher power can assist us when feel things are getting out of control.
My view of religion has changed so much as I've grown older. I don't believe everything churches say and I also read more of the bible (instead of taking what the preacher says as fact) and I recognize/question scripture that is inconsistant. I find that many religious people, in particular, the ones that don't like homosexuals don't read the bible that much. They are not up on scripture but instead just blindly follow the direction of today's religion.
As a result, I do not belong to any organized religion but I do consider myself very spiritual. I just feel badly for people that rely on the church for guidence. I feel they are being misled into individual's opinions/versions about what the bible says.
[ July 01, 2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Jorel ]
Some good, interesting and thought-provoking ideas here; how ironic that a gay sports board has been one of the most influential factors in my ongoing effort to place myself in - or out - of any religious context.
After a pretty strict RC upbringing, including (only!) two years in dreaded Catholic School, I pretty much abandoned the Church, viewing it as an obstacle to interaction between God and me. I had a flirtation with renewed Catholicism a few years ago, but just as quickly ended that when the pedophile scandals went unanswered, unless one considers the Church's increased hostility to gays an answer. Now, I go to church rarely and while I read the Church's various pronouncements, I rarely heed them, and only find myself criticizing them as hopelessly out of touch and irrelevant to reality.
So I come back to what seemed to work best for me in college: being a Deist, if anything subject to labeling, but coming back to the Church for its liturgy and traditions as I feel the need for them. If that makes me a cafeteria Catholic, so be it, for I cannot bring myself to be an active and supportive one in light of its present dogma and practice. Nevertheless, I recognize that being a Catholic has been, and therefore is, a part of who I am, and I value this as I would any other life experience for what I learned from it.
After a pretty strict RC upbringing, including (only!) two years in dreaded Catholic School, I pretty much abandoned the Church, viewing it as an obstacle to interaction between God and me. I had a flirtation with renewed Catholicism a few years ago, but just as quickly ended that when the pedophile scandals went unanswered, unless one considers the Church's increased hostility to gays an answer. Now, I go to church rarely and while I read the Church's various pronouncements, I rarely heed them, and only find myself criticizing them as hopelessly out of touch and irrelevant to reality.
So I come back to what seemed to work best for me in college: being a Deist, if anything subject to labeling, but coming back to the Church for its liturgy and traditions as I feel the need for them. If that makes me a cafeteria Catholic, so be it, for I cannot bring myself to be an active and supportive one in light of its present dogma and practice. Nevertheless, I recognize that being a Catholic has been, and therefore is, a part of who I am, and I value this as I would any other life experience for what I learned from it.
While God is real and alive, it's hard to be in touch with God in daily life. Worshipping in a community and sharing rituals, expecially the sacrament, makes God more available to my mind and senses. Plus, the other people can offer advice and balance, and can help you pray when you are too weak. Of course, you don't need to celebrate your relationship with God in public--I'm sure there are those who prefer to be "quietly" spiritual. wink
Hmmm... okay, I think I get it. So if I understand correctly, religious people are 1) aware that religious institutions are imperfect, but 2) continue to practice religion for the fellowship and support it provides, despite the fact that 3) the religious tenets of their particular institution may contradict their personal beliefs in such matters as contraception, homosexuality, pre-marital sex, etc. Am I getting that right, or am I being too reductive?
QUOTE
HotlantaTarheel:
Pierre, the reason for being part of a church community, is that the \"journey\" can be made easier with fellowship and support from those of similar beliefs. Your relationship with God may be individually based, but you can still have a family to learn from and grow with. I don't think its necessary to be a member of an organized religion, but if not, then where do the tenets or your beliefs originate from?
As far as every religion having a spiritual leader--I'm not sure that's true. I don't think that Protestant denominations have any one spiritual leader. Individual churches may have a minister, viewed as the \"shepard\", but their role is a spiritual guide and not one who determines theology.
Protestants seem cool! I talked with a friend at lunch about it, and you guys do seem to have a different way of doing things from Mormons and Catholics (at least what I know about Catholics). If I were going to worship again, I'd look into joining you guys. Pierre, the reason for being part of a church community, is that the \"journey\" can be made easier with fellowship and support from those of similar beliefs. Your relationship with God may be individually based, but you can still have a family to learn from and grow with. I don't think its necessary to be a member of an organized religion, but if not, then where do the tenets or your beliefs originate from?
As far as every religion having a spiritual leader--I'm not sure that's true. I don't think that Protestant denominations have any one spiritual leader. Individual churches may have a minister, viewed as the \"shepard\", but their role is a spiritual guide and not one who determines theology.
QUOTE
skjpm:
I think we are all born with an inner call toward God. Most of what we do with relationships and recreation is an attempt to fill that call without God, but, ultimately, we have to find God. Our search for \"religion\" is a search for a set of symbols or rituals which somehow speak God's name to us. As a Christian, I think that Jesus is God's call to us, and that we stumble along in our lives trying to find our way to Him. Sometimes, organizized churches can even help, but they only matter if they help people perform those rituals which help them make God present in their lives.
I really like this view of religion. it definitely seems more spiritual as opposed to... an attempt to dictate acceptable behavior.
I think we are all born with an inner call toward God. Most of what we do with relationships and recreation is an attempt to fill that call without God, but, ultimately, we have to find God. Our search for \"religion\" is a search for a set of symbols or rituals which somehow speak God's name to us. As a Christian, I think that Jesus is God's call to us, and that we stumble along in our lives trying to find our way to Him. Sometimes, organizized churches can even help, but they only matter if they help people perform those rituals which help them make God present in their lives.
Well one can always join a gay church if one is readily available in your area. I know Dallas has 2 specifically gay congregations (one is the largest gay church in the country) as well as some gay friendly churches that are all inclusive.
The way I see it, I see religion as more a spiritual reassurance than the final word of God. While many Roman Catholics may disagree with me(I've been called the cafeteria catholic as well), quite a few might agree with me. Believe it or not, a nun who was a teacher in my high school told me one day that she definately doesn't agree with everything the Church says and she hasn't been afraid to voice her concerns. Before that I disliked her class but my respect for her eventually grew. I also think that each of us in the end must find our own way to God. Organized religion can help but can also hurt as well, let's admit that. I think each of us carries the answer in us which we all will find someday. Sorry if I'm getting preachy but this is an interesting thread!
A thread about religion... on a gay message board... and not a single hostile response. I'm impressed and really enjoyed reading everyone's input. Awesome.
My spirituality is the framework of my life. I am a Christian, in that i accept the sacrifice that God made by trading his own son for my sins. A sin, in my opinion, is something that i do that goes against what i know is right... and i readily admit that i've sinned plenty in my life.
I think that God's sacrifice is the most selfless act possible. I can't deny that he must love me without boundaries to do that for me. My job is to accept that gift, and i think this is the "test" that we are given as human beings living out our human lives. It sounds easy, but i think it is quite the opposite. We have to accept that we are worthy... no matter what 'society' or 'religion' or any other group or person tells us, and no matter what 'sins' we think we may have in our lives. We have to accept that God loves us far beyond that sin... he loves us enough to give his only son up to something worse than death. That is tough to comprehend... but, it is an absolute truth.
Anyway... i've been blessed to have a family that pushed me to discover my own spirituality since i was very young. And, God was waiting around every corner that i've turned. I remember when my father who, as a preacher, stood in the pulpit in front of me and said "homosexuals are sinners and they can't be Christians". And yet my dad was the first one to come to me when i "came out" and tell me "i don't care... i love you no matter what... i love you beyond anything that i, personally, think might be wrong". That just mirrors God for me... i know that no matter what i am or do, God will come to me immediately and say those same words. He's done it so many times in my life. And that just makes me want to get to know him more... it makes me want to be like that too! To love people beyond anything that i may think is not 'right'.
As for 'religion'... i like the being around people that feel like i do... who put love ahead of everything else. I'm so lucky to have a family and a few friends(who are family now too, as far as i'm concerned) that understand that. But, that is just an 'extra' that God throws in for us. Most importantly, i think, we should try to know him. To learn from him. In my experience, everything else really will "fall into place".
[ July 02, 2004, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: NateAtl ]
My spirituality is the framework of my life. I am a Christian, in that i accept the sacrifice that God made by trading his own son for my sins. A sin, in my opinion, is something that i do that goes against what i know is right... and i readily admit that i've sinned plenty in my life.
I think that God's sacrifice is the most selfless act possible. I can't deny that he must love me without boundaries to do that for me. My job is to accept that gift, and i think this is the "test" that we are given as human beings living out our human lives. It sounds easy, but i think it is quite the opposite. We have to accept that we are worthy... no matter what 'society' or 'religion' or any other group or person tells us, and no matter what 'sins' we think we may have in our lives. We have to accept that God loves us far beyond that sin... he loves us enough to give his only son up to something worse than death. That is tough to comprehend... but, it is an absolute truth.
Anyway... i've been blessed to have a family that pushed me to discover my own spirituality since i was very young. And, God was waiting around every corner that i've turned. I remember when my father who, as a preacher, stood in the pulpit in front of me and said "homosexuals are sinners and they can't be Christians". And yet my dad was the first one to come to me when i "came out" and tell me "i don't care... i love you no matter what... i love you beyond anything that i, personally, think might be wrong". That just mirrors God for me... i know that no matter what i am or do, God will come to me immediately and say those same words. He's done it so many times in my life. And that just makes me want to get to know him more... it makes me want to be like that too! To love people beyond anything that i may think is not 'right'.
As for 'religion'... i like the being around people that feel like i do... who put love ahead of everything else. I'm so lucky to have a family and a few friends(who are family now too, as far as i'm concerned) that understand that. But, that is just an 'extra' that God throws in for us. Most importantly, i think, we should try to know him. To learn from him. In my experience, everything else really will "fall into place".
[ July 02, 2004, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: NateAtl ]
Nice posts guys. Very thoughtful.
I don't claim to be religious although most my friends insist that I am at some fundamental level.
I was raised in a Protestant household but we rarely attended services. I devoured everything religious while I attended college just because the debates about faith, reason and God were so interesting.
After much consideration, I came to the conclusion that the main purpose of religion is pure and simple: to help relieve the primary suffering of men & women (death, old age, sickness).
I also think that religion can only accomplish this via Reason. The message of any given religion is viable only to the extent that it is reasonable. I think that if any religion asks it's followers to defy their reasoning mind, then something is fundamentally flawed in the message.
(History is full of tragic, deadly examples.)
So many of those that maintain some ardent spiritual practice seem to always arrive at this Reason vs. Faith impasse. Religious scholars are quick to point out that viewing the efficacy of religion through the Reason vs. Faith question is missing the point. Reason is not the opposite of Faith; Apathy is the opposite of Faith.
I don't claim to be religious although most my friends insist that I am at some fundamental level.
I was raised in a Protestant household but we rarely attended services. I devoured everything religious while I attended college just because the debates about faith, reason and God were so interesting.
After much consideration, I came to the conclusion that the main purpose of religion is pure and simple: to help relieve the primary suffering of men & women (death, old age, sickness).
I also think that religion can only accomplish this via Reason. The message of any given religion is viable only to the extent that it is reasonable. I think that if any religion asks it's followers to defy their reasoning mind, then something is fundamentally flawed in the message.
(History is full of tragic, deadly examples.)
So many of those that maintain some ardent spiritual practice seem to always arrive at this Reason vs. Faith impasse. Religious scholars are quick to point out that viewing the efficacy of religion through the Reason vs. Faith question is missing the point. Reason is not the opposite of Faith; Apathy is the opposite of Faith.
The issue of religion and religious beliefs is a deeply personal matter. My beef is with people who try to shove their beliefs down my throat. I have seen some of the most obscene behavior occur in the context of religious institutions. I also recognize that other people have different experiences.
I have been reading a number of books about religion. Pierre - you might be interested in the book I just read entitled "One Nation under Gods" which is a stinging indictment of mormonism. I'm also learning a lot about how many, if not most, Christian sects borrowed heavily from Greek and Eygptian mythical religions like Osiris/Isis. It is well worth looking at religion from a broader and historical perspective and then allow yourself to challenge your own belief system.
I have been reading a number of books about religion. Pierre - you might be interested in the book I just read entitled "One Nation under Gods" which is a stinging indictment of mormonism. I'm also learning a lot about how many, if not most, Christian sects borrowed heavily from Greek and Eygptian mythical religions like Osiris/Isis. It is well worth looking at religion from a broader and historical perspective and then allow yourself to challenge your own belief system.
ON a side note and not to detract from the thread. Go see the movie "Saved". wonderful movie deals with a Catholic high school and especially with what these kids are doing. Saying things like god wants me to do this. Great movie. Mandy Moore does a good job of playing an almost militant catholic girl who will stop at nothing to get people to accept jesus. Wonderfull movie, but is very funny also. Sorry to hijack the thread.
I can tell you being raised in a very devout mormon family. We went to church every sunday without fail. You had to be on your deathbed to get out of going. In a way the mormon religion was forced on me and my brothers and sisters. I even served a "voluntary" two year mission for the mormon church. Which was all in all a great experience. I was a horrible missionary though. Even though i tried everything i could to get out of going, even telling my dad i didnt think we could afford it and i should stay home for a year. I even attended a mormon college for three years before being asked not to return the following year :-)
So growing up was spent sundays at church and sundays evenings usually at some church related meeting, "fireside" or youth group type meetings. Every wednesday nite was spent basically at youth group.
Althought i always went to church, once i went to college and after my mission I have only returned to church a few times. More for reasons of it just doesnt appeal to me. I was never able to sit thru three hours of church meetings. I could get up in front of the congregation and give a talk or speech with out hesitation. I had been doing it since i was 8 years old. Although i do not agree with the mormon churchs policy on Homosexuals i do not hold any anymosity(sp) towards the church.
When i came out one thing my mother asked me was "do you still believe in the church" And my response to her was yes i do. Let me explain.
I beleive in alot of the teachings and principles that the mormon church has taught me. I beleive and agree with the teachings and scriptures i have read in the bible and the book or mormon (Mormon Scripture used in conjuction with the bible) Because i feel that these teachings are rite. But they are not teachings of hate this person because he is different.
But i dont agree with an organized religion that teaches that God loves us all as his children. And he will always love us. And then that same religion turns around and says Your gay you are not loved. You are not allowed to worship my God in my church with my people. It makes me shake my head in disgust to see these "diehard" religous types at rallies screaming obscenities at two people who only want to show the world that they have committed to each other and get married and receive the same benefits as every one else,and they happen to be two men.
I feel that organized religion for the most part tries to establish a sort of symetry or organization out of all the choas. I think that there are alot of people in this world that need something to believe in. That need to be able to go to church every sunday and feel good about themselves for doing it. Organized religion is something that allows people to connect with people of similar ideas and beliefs. Its a huge support group in a way.
Ok i think i have rambled enough and become actually incoherent... In my opinion the purpose of organized religion is to bring together people with similar beliefs and ideas, pure and simple. It is not to incite hate or anger.
As for reconciling my homosexuality with the church. I dont feel a need to. Honestly i am a little scared. I have not heard one good story about where a church, that is not gay friendly has actually offered the kind of wisdm and acceptance that i am looking for. I have only heard negative things. I cannot go to an organized religion and have them tell me i can change the way my heart tells me i am. Tell me that I am just confused. The day i know that they will accept me for who I am, not try and change me, or send me to deprogrammming then i will be the first one to walk into the church.
Sorry for my ramblings. I have alot of experience with religions. and can be rather passionate about it.
I can tell you being raised in a very devout mormon family. We went to church every sunday without fail. You had to be on your deathbed to get out of going. In a way the mormon religion was forced on me and my brothers and sisters. I even served a "voluntary" two year mission for the mormon church. Which was all in all a great experience. I was a horrible missionary though. Even though i tried everything i could to get out of going, even telling my dad i didnt think we could afford it and i should stay home for a year. I even attended a mormon college for three years before being asked not to return the following year :-)
So growing up was spent sundays at church and sundays evenings usually at some church related meeting, "fireside" or youth group type meetings. Every wednesday nite was spent basically at youth group.
Althought i always went to church, once i went to college and after my mission I have only returned to church a few times. More for reasons of it just doesnt appeal to me. I was never able to sit thru three hours of church meetings. I could get up in front of the congregation and give a talk or speech with out hesitation. I had been doing it since i was 8 years old. Although i do not agree with the mormon churchs policy on Homosexuals i do not hold any anymosity(sp) towards the church.
When i came out one thing my mother asked me was "do you still believe in the church" And my response to her was yes i do. Let me explain.
I beleive in alot of the teachings and principles that the mormon church has taught me. I beleive and agree with the teachings and scriptures i have read in the bible and the book or mormon (Mormon Scripture used in conjuction with the bible) Because i feel that these teachings are rite. But they are not teachings of hate this person because he is different.
But i dont agree with an organized religion that teaches that God loves us all as his children. And he will always love us. And then that same religion turns around and says Your gay you are not loved. You are not allowed to worship my God in my church with my people. It makes me shake my head in disgust to see these "diehard" religous types at rallies screaming obscenities at two people who only want to show the world that they have committed to each other and get married and receive the same benefits as every one else,and they happen to be two men.
I feel that organized religion for the most part tries to establish a sort of symetry or organization out of all the choas. I think that there are alot of people in this world that need something to believe in. That need to be able to go to church every sunday and feel good about themselves for doing it. Organized religion is something that allows people to connect with people of similar ideas and beliefs. Its a huge support group in a way.
Ok i think i have rambled enough and become actually incoherent... In my opinion the purpose of organized religion is to bring together people with similar beliefs and ideas, pure and simple. It is not to incite hate or anger.
As for reconciling my homosexuality with the church. I dont feel a need to. Honestly i am a little scared. I have not heard one good story about where a church, that is not gay friendly has actually offered the kind of wisdm and acceptance that i am looking for. I have only heard negative things. I cannot go to an organized religion and have them tell me i can change the way my heart tells me i am. Tell me that I am just confused. The day i know that they will accept me for who I am, not try and change me, or send me to deprogrammming then i will be the first one to walk into the church.
Sorry for my ramblings. I have alot of experience with religions. and can be rather passionate about it.
Wow. Cool posts, guys. Thanks for responding, and like NateAtl said, thanks for everyone being so nice about a topic which could cause a lot of heated responses.
6iron, I'm pretty much of the same mindset as you. I believe God must be reasonable. Everything in the universe reflects a reasoned creator, so I have a hard time believing that if the Bible were his word, it could in any way be unreasonable.
I don't even understand the purpose of Faith. I like the paradigm shift of Apathy vs Faith instead of Reason vs Faith, although I don't quite understand its full implications, i.e. what do you do when Faith contradicts Reason? Perhaps it never does and it's only humans who erringly perceive any contradictions. Even with homosexuality. Perhaps, as I've read in other places, it was a mis-translation or a mis-interpretation of the original text.
mdphl, "One Nation Under Gods" sounds cool! Although if it's indicting Mormonism, it's going to be preaching to the choir with me, but I'm still game for reading it.
JeffWa, you and I have had identical upbringings... until the mission, that is. Until then, I did all the stuff you're talking about. I held the priesthood, blessed sacrament, etc.
When it was time to go on a mission, I knew that 1) I couldn't leave a school I loved to go on a mission for a church I didn't believe in, and 2) I wouldn't be able to be with another guy 24/7 and not eventually go crazy if I didn't get physical, so I told my parents I wasn't going. And then I eventually came out to them. Best decision I ever made.
The reason I'm asking about this stuff--and again, thanks to everyone for posting--is that, while I understand the benefits of religion, I do see it as an inherently flawed system, so I wonder why people bother to believe in the system as opposed to being spiritual individually or, if one likes the fellowship aspect of religion, joining other organizations which are more in line with what one believes, ESPECIALLY since the flaws are frequently used to harm or divide... and when they are used for such ends, the majority who don't condone such actions are silent (or maybe the news media never reported their protests, so I could be wrong on that).
I prefer Reason, because as I said above, I believe that God must above all things be reasonable, and, therefore any accurate reflection of him must be Reasonable. But since most religions are not, how can they accurately represent him?
I understand that religions are human institutions and that the flaws are probably a reflection of humans and not of God, but why is the fallibility of the institution never (at least that I'm aware of) acknowledged by the religious leaders? If there are religions that do (perhaps Protestantism?), please correct me. Admittedly, I have a limited knowledge of other religions, which is a part of the reason I started this thread.
If only religions would officially acknowledge that they are not the final say on morality, I'd have a higher regard for religion in general.
But as I understand it, isn't that most religions' fundamental tenet-that they are the one true way to God? Or am I grossly misinformed because of my Mormon upbringing?
Thanks again, all!
6iron, I'm pretty much of the same mindset as you. I believe God must be reasonable. Everything in the universe reflects a reasoned creator, so I have a hard time believing that if the Bible were his word, it could in any way be unreasonable.
I don't even understand the purpose of Faith. I like the paradigm shift of Apathy vs Faith instead of Reason vs Faith, although I don't quite understand its full implications, i.e. what do you do when Faith contradicts Reason? Perhaps it never does and it's only humans who erringly perceive any contradictions. Even with homosexuality. Perhaps, as I've read in other places, it was a mis-translation or a mis-interpretation of the original text.
mdphl, "One Nation Under Gods" sounds cool! Although if it's indicting Mormonism, it's going to be preaching to the choir with me, but I'm still game for reading it.
JeffWa, you and I have had identical upbringings... until the mission, that is. Until then, I did all the stuff you're talking about. I held the priesthood, blessed sacrament, etc.
When it was time to go on a mission, I knew that 1) I couldn't leave a school I loved to go on a mission for a church I didn't believe in, and 2) I wouldn't be able to be with another guy 24/7 and not eventually go crazy if I didn't get physical, so I told my parents I wasn't going. And then I eventually came out to them. Best decision I ever made.
The reason I'm asking about this stuff--and again, thanks to everyone for posting--is that, while I understand the benefits of religion, I do see it as an inherently flawed system, so I wonder why people bother to believe in the system as opposed to being spiritual individually or, if one likes the fellowship aspect of religion, joining other organizations which are more in line with what one believes, ESPECIALLY since the flaws are frequently used to harm or divide... and when they are used for such ends, the majority who don't condone such actions are silent (or maybe the news media never reported their protests, so I could be wrong on that).
I prefer Reason, because as I said above, I believe that God must above all things be reasonable, and, therefore any accurate reflection of him must be Reasonable. But since most religions are not, how can they accurately represent him?
I understand that religions are human institutions and that the flaws are probably a reflection of humans and not of God, but why is the fallibility of the institution never (at least that I'm aware of) acknowledged by the religious leaders? If there are religions that do (perhaps Protestantism?), please correct me. Admittedly, I have a limited knowledge of other religions, which is a part of the reason I started this thread.
If only religions would officially acknowledge that they are not the final say on morality, I'd have a higher regard for religion in general.
But as I understand it, isn't that most religions' fundamental tenet-that they are the one true way to God? Or am I grossly misinformed because of my Mormon upbringing?
Thanks again, all!
OK, I'm willing to be the fly in the ointment here...
I don't believe in God, heaven, or hell. I was raised Catholic and stopped being so when I was about 16 (the Church, it seemed, was against everything I was for and for everything I was against -- and being gay wasn't something I was even dealing with yet!). I respect anyone's right to be "spiritual" as long as you acknowledge that most organized religions are monolithic corporations that exploit the poor and ignorant.
[ July 02, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: RGMike ]
I don't believe in God, heaven, or hell. I was raised Catholic and stopped being so when I was about 16 (the Church, it seemed, was against everything I was for and for everything I was against -- and being gay wasn't something I was even dealing with yet!). I respect anyone's right to be "spiritual" as long as you acknowledge that most organized religions are monolithic corporations that exploit the poor and ignorant.
[ July 02, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: RGMike ]
I am in a different position from the rest of you in that my father was an atheist and brought me up as such, although I did go to a church-affiliated primary school (because it was the closest)
He wasnt hostile to religion in the least. He thought the Church of England was full of well-intentioned people but he just thought they were kidding themselves to believe in a higher power.
Somebody wrote above that "I cannot, and will not believe that we simply live a life, die, and then our remains rot in the ground, and thats it."
Well that was exactly what my father did believe - and continued to believe through a long and painful final illness. He was very distressed and angry at the prospect of dying and was not easy to be around although I always respected him for not changing his views when it came to the crunch.
When I think of him it is always in the past tense. I find it impossible to think of him "sitting on a cloud" or having some sort of continued spiritual existence.
(continued)....Clearly there are advantages to having a faith; it would be a comfort to believe in an afterlife but its not really an option to suddenly start believing if, like me, you have been brought up to think (and Im not trying to be offensive here) that God is no more likely to exist than Father Christmas or ghosts or UFOs or the tooth-fairy!
[ July 02, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: jamesw ]
He wasnt hostile to religion in the least. He thought the Church of England was full of well-intentioned people but he just thought they were kidding themselves to believe in a higher power.
Somebody wrote above that "I cannot, and will not believe that we simply live a life, die, and then our remains rot in the ground, and thats it."
Well that was exactly what my father did believe - and continued to believe through a long and painful final illness. He was very distressed and angry at the prospect of dying and was not easy to be around although I always respected him for not changing his views when it came to the crunch.
When I think of him it is always in the past tense. I find it impossible to think of him "sitting on a cloud" or having some sort of continued spiritual existence.
(continued)....Clearly there are advantages to having a faith; it would be a comfort to believe in an afterlife but its not really an option to suddenly start believing if, like me, you have been brought up to think (and Im not trying to be offensive here) that God is no more likely to exist than Father Christmas or ghosts or UFOs or the tooth-fairy!
[ July 02, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: jamesw ]
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