Bush explained his reasoning for pulling out of the Kyoto Treating by stating that it would hurt the U.S. economy.

Great reasoning George. Because we shouldn't look to the future at all........

Silly, silly Illini, the future ends at the end of his lame-duck term as "president". Why should he care what happens to this planet, as long as his oil buddies back in Texas continue to grease his palms and fatten his wallet. This just goes to show, through example and action, what a selfish, self-absorbed, short-sighted person Bush really is.

Unwise tax cuts and poor regulation of business ethics are what's hurting the economy. Not to mention totally incompetent management of the infrastructure and common resources necessary for the economy to function properly.

The pseudo-economics of Bush II are even worse than the voodoo economics of his father. We are ripe for an economic disaster that could degrade into a military conflict, as it already has with this war in Iraq. The future one could be worse.

Hidden beneath the rhetoric, there are some legitimate concerns here, the Admin's less than admirable position on environmental matters among them. Add its refusal to enforce the immigration laws, which gives us an economy with all the foundational strength of the former Spanish Empire, with its reliance on gold and silver imports, and its refusal to rein in excessive corporate compensation, and there ARE potential problems ahead. But the rhetoric of the left in Congress, if not their refusal to seriously work towards resolving these issues with the Admin, is equally at fault for failing to address and resolve these problems.

Oh, yes, okay...it's the left's refusal to allow this administration to grind our country even further into the ground that's causing all this trouble. The Republicans, including the cranky old wannabes' on this site, simply won't admit that they've caused extensive damage to our economy, our reputation, and to American families across the country who've unnecessarily lost their children to the war. No, it's the left's fault because we simply won't give over everything to this wannabe dictatorship.

"Equally at fault" =/= "causing all this trouble." But then rhetoric replaced reading decades ago in SF - and ageism looks as strong as it ever was up there.

I'd respond but that posting made about as much sense as this adminstration's treatment of the environment, the economy, gay people, and the war. I believe nonsensical is the appropriate term as well as stupid, greedy, arrogant and hateful. Okay, I guess that was a response.

Is this the same Kyoto Treaty that under Bill Clinton was defeated in the U.S. Senate by a vote of 95-0? The same treaty that disproportionately goes after the United States yet doesn't say a damn thing about China and India, two of the world's growing economies and biggest polluters?

Yup, thought so.

Kudos to ANY president who rebuffs this horrible, clearly anti-capitalist, anti-American treaty. The single reason why much of the rest of the world wants it ratified is to bring the U.S. down to their level.

[ July 01, 2005, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]

Is the Kyoto Treaty a tough goal for the U.S.?

Sure!

But is it something you need to throw away in the trash? NO

Why couldn't we just keep our position on it (signing, but not ratifying) and TRY our best to improve standards, realizing that we probably won't be up to those standards by the deadline.

Instead we are doing absolutely nothing. That's not the better option. If you don't like the Kyoto Treaty, how about suggesting something else. I have seen nothing but our view on environmental issues erode over the last 5 years. And it's not just about whether you believe in global warming or how serious you think it really is.......it's also about breathing clean air. Just go to L.A. and check how awesome it is to live with smog.

You say all of that like it's a bad thing.

Bush looks at the pictures in his gold-leafed illustrated version of the Book of Revelations everyday and he has decided that he wants to be the President at the end of the world.

It is a bad thing. Any time someone wants to harm America, I will raise my voice in protest. Shame on you for believing it's best to harm America by damaging our economy and our citizens just so we can become more like 2nd and 3rd world countries. Why don't other countries try to improve or better themselves instead of us trying to downgrade ourselves?

People like you who truly do dislike this country ought to not let the door hit your ass on the way out.

>>It is a bad thing. Any time someone wants to harm America, I will raise my voice in protest.

I'm not sure that it's "harming" America to feel that we should be a little more humble - even Bush paid lip service to this idea when he was elected and made promises to deal "humbly" with the rest of the world. I call it being a good neighbor.

>>Shame on you for believing it's best to harm America by damaging our economy and our citizens just so we can become more like 2nd and 3rd world countries.

You under-estimate America. Surely we have the technology, the drive, and the wealth to create whole new industries that would be less poluting and cheaper to sustain - and create many jobs in the process? I'm not sure that nudging the US into doing these things is "harming" America!

And nowhere did anyone ever say that they want a new environmental attitude "just so we can become more like 2nd and 3rd world countries."

>>Why don't other countries try to improve or better themselves instead of us trying to downgrade ourselves?

They do.

But why do we need to "downgrade" ourselves to be more ecologically friendly? Surely, in the long run, that's the OPPOSITE of harming ourselves. Your arguement would seem to be that we can't change anything, don't want to change anything, and can't make a start at changing anything. I reject that, because I believe that the US *can* accomplish just about anything it tries to do.

>>People like you who truly do dislike this country ought to not let the door hit your ass on the way out.

That's silly. Since when is disagreeing with your family disliking it? Your argument here seems to be that if one disagrees with the current direction of the country, one should leave it - and somehow hates it. Those pesky guys in the crow's nest who keep warning us about the iceberg should just stop hating the ship and jump overboard?

How can you know what another person "truly" likes or dislikes?

Since when does democracy demand that people who disagree should leave?

Nat

It doesn't. But the arrogant mentality that MIB and many others have right now has really gained steam during the past 54 months. People like MIB are faithfully blind to those on the inside who truly do hate our country and our freedoms...he simply chooses not to see those people in that light.

I have been very ashamed of my country for quite a while now but I love my country and I dare anyone to prove otherwise. Anyone who takes an asinine approach and says in effect "to love it or leave it" is proving the fact of how arrogant this country is becoming under the thumb of George W Bush, one of the most evil leaders in world history.

I knew when I said "you say that like it's a bad thing" in response to the comment from MIB about other countries trying "to bring the U.S. down to their level", that someone might read it the wrong way. I should have done a pre-emptive pacifier for any possible mis-readers and explained more completely what I had meant. I am glad Nat had the intelligence and the common sense to read it the way I intended it to be read instead of over-reacting with hysterics.

I love the principles of what America is SUPPOSED to be, but the governments that we elect fail to live up the lofty ideals of self perpetuation. That said, the Kyoto biz is shit. I say that it is shit because even its "targets" aren't good enough.

Once upon a time America was the land of innovation and technical genius. If Thomas Edison were alive today, he would be directing his staff to develop renewable energy resources. Today's America is filled with UNIMAGINATIVE, and lazy citizens. We scoff at stuff like Kyoto because we think it will disrupt the ecomony and make our lives inconvenient. We think this because we think that fossil fuels are the only way we can drive our needs. How 20th Century!

But the problem isn't Kyoto; it's the midset that we can no longer invent things. Instead, we feel that there's no alternative but to pump oil from the ground in nations which are hostile toward us. All of our current problems derive from this mindset.

MIB thinks that we should be worried about "lowering" ourselves to 2nd world status. Guess what? The mentality of America and its leaderhip is steered directly toward 2nd world citizenhood.

The demand for oil is increasing worldwide, while supplies are stagnant. The wells are running dry. We can launch pre-emptive wars to make up the gap, or we can become - once again - Americans. We can deny the reality, or we can draw up the moxie to do something unique, different, and civilization saving. Solar, wind, hydro, & nuclear - those 4 resources can supply all the needs we have for electricity.

If the leadership of the country doesn't do something on the order of the NASA space program to foster renewable energy resources, we will wake up one day and gas will be $10 a gallon. What do think that will do the US economy? I have an idea, and it'll make the Great Depression look like child's play. Unemployment will be 20%+, the stock market will collapse, the US deficit will soar to 10 times its current range, and crime will reach EPIC proportions. But at least MIB will have plenty of cases to try.

Count me with the pessimists. I don't think the US gov't has the balls to fund the solution until its too late. I'll be in Canada while the rest of you are living something akin to Road Warrior.

[ July 02, 2005, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: AU Tiger in ATL ]

Uh huh.

Being ashamed of it is one thing, for God knows no one, and no country, is perfect, but when an American such as yourself specifically states here that you wish for America to be harmed so we can be more on par with those less fortunate than us, that crosses the line.

I think I will let one of my favorite presidents respont do MIB's latest vitrolic diatribes...

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ---Theodore Roosevelt

I think I will take T R's moral authority over Shrubs any day of the week or year.

R

And this is relevant how? Yeah, just as I thought. If you can't be relevant, don't bother wasting thread space.

It doesn't matter who's president (even though Kyoto was defeated unanimously under someone other than Bush, thank-you-very-much). Whenever someone wishes for America to falter, for this nation to be harmed, said person forfeits his/her right to be a citizen of this country.

As to damaging the economy, have a look at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/03/opinion/.../03kristof.html

Where do you get this garbage to spew?

Nowhere in this entire thread have I read anyone wishing for this nation to be harmed.

Bobby made one clearly sarcastic statement - even including an emoticon to emphasise the sarcasm - and you have gone off on a wild tangent of spewing hate and knee jerk reactionary conservatism.

It is however people like you who would deny free speech to anyone who disagrees with you that are the most dangerous element in our society and Republic.

Come join society with the rest of us someday. You will have to give up your blinders and self exagerated overbloated opinions - but the gains of finding out there are other people in the world with new and different ideas and viewpoints makes life interesting and enjoyable.

R

>>It is however people like you who would deny free speech to anyone who disagrees with you that are the most dangerous element in our society and Republic.

Well said.

Karl Popper wrtoe a very important book called "The Open Society and its Enemies," in which he predicted the fall of Nazism and Communism precisely because they suppress divergent opinion (he had a low idea of Plato, too). His idea was that a society that denies the right to disagree, will eventually ossify, no longer be able to respond to new situations or ideas, will not be able to take in neww approaches, and will die under its own weight.

On the contrary, open societies, where free debate is a norm, and where people are free to take the best from both sides of an arguement, remain strong and vibrant.

People who want to shut down debate, or who discourage it by attacks, shouting, ad hominum arguements, or by simply dismissing the opposition, are, as you say, the real danger.

Nat

I NEVER said I want America harmed. You keep saying I said it and I did not. Asking for my country to accept the fact that it's not the shining country on a hill that can do no wrong is NOT saying I want it harmed. You are losing it, "judge" and you've crossed over a very dangerous line.

I say it, again, I love my country and I dare anyone to prove otherwise.

I'd suggest you lay off the sauce a bit before you ever accuse me of denying one free speech. No greater defender of that is there here than I. It's the Left and your ilk who shouts from the mountain tops about so-called free speech rights, but then when someone comes along with whom you disagree, well, then it's perfectly OK to be a blatant hypocrite and deny said person their right to speak. Liberals are so damn good at this that they've perfected it, hands down.

When bobbie states that it's a good thing that America be harmed by being brought down to the level of 2nd and 3rd world countries, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how such an individual ought not call himself an American.

Everyone here criticizes our own nation from time to time, sometimes justifiably, other times unjustifiably, but when one goes beyond this criticism to state that America should suffer and be downgraded, this is the line that is crossed.

And puhleeze, go accuse yourself or the other left-wing nutjobs here about hatred. You hypocrites are so full of hatred and rage against Bush and anything conservative that it's truly sad. I hate no one; I hate nothing. Hatred is such a powerful word, an emotion steeped in evil, and it is people like you that are truly in this camp, not me. I may disagree, sometimes strongly, with someone; I may call someone on the carpet for their ridiculous viewpoints, but unlike you, I harbor no hatred or ill will toward anyone.

This is the part of America I criticize, the part by which I am distressed--too much hatred by the liberals here. frown

[ July 03, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]

I do not hate you, If anything I pity you.
It must be very lonely to be by yourself in a small closet afraid of the light.

We as humans do not exist in a vacuum; there are other humans around us with whom we have to interact. Not all of them share our opinions, yet for the greater good we must agree to disagree, and then find a working consensus on action. It is unreasonable to hide in the dark constantly clicking your heels together saying 'I wish I was back in Kansas' 'I wish I was back in Kansas''I wish I was back in Kansas'.

It will not change the objective reality that we are not alone, and that we are definately not omniscient.

The Republican parties constant pandering to the religious right, and their chained obedience to the dictates of corporate superpowers does not mean that they are right on every issue. Simply that they have unfortunately secumbed to their own propoganda.

Like all things there is a cycle to politics. Things will get just so bad, and then there will be a radical backlash; then things will start to move slowely back to the other end of the spectrum. The only thing I worry about is the immense destructive power conservative R's seem to relish; the punishments they feel they need to inflict on anyone who disagrees with them.

--------------------------------------------

Huge sidetrack:

People generally don’t take well to other people telling them what to do. Telling them that decisions have been made for them without their input or consent.

I think the ‘magic bullets’ are education and travel. We know that Education is the magic bullet for a whole host of social ills, the most obvious being crime and poverty. But Education isn't just about keeping the streets safe and giving every American the right to own a sports car.

Better schools and more affordable colleges are weapons against ignorance. That social ill, as Churchill observed, is ultimately much more dangerous to democracy than mad dictators or the members of a terrorist cell.

Travel, getting yourself out of whatever small town you live in (even NYC or LA or the whole USA) exposes you instantly to new people, new ideas, new thoughts, and new ways of dealing with life. You have to learn to adapt, to stretch your conceptions. Slowly you make a connection with those around you in the new environment, and realize that they are HUMAN like you.

After that, it is kind of hard to hate or despise someone else just because they are different.

Maybe the trouble in today’s world is that the WORLD is intruding on those small towns everywhere like never before in history. People who have never had to stretch or grow become scared. In their ignorance of those elsewhere, they react instinctively and defensively by becoming very conservative. Maybe trying to return the world of their small town to a place or time that they could cope with easily and without much real thought. Uncertainty can be scary if you’ve never been confronted with uncertainty before.

End of huge sidetrack
_____________________________________________


So - still, I pity you, and I hope you can find some sort of peace from your torments.

The difference between the two of us is that you will constantly look back and complain about the destruction of our society and country while we are destroying what we have; I will only say "Look what we can build for the future".

Hopefully you will not find that you have destroyed the very things you say that you seek to protect.

R

[ July 03, 2005, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

Well, I pity your pity for me. I lead a very happy, rewarding life, the eternal optimist and levity-loving individual that I am. And my light is quite bright in my rather wide open world.

I'm still trying to figure out just what a "vacume" is, though. :confused:

Must be one of those liberal thingamajobs.

[quote]MIB:
[/quote]Well, I pity your pity for me. I lead a very happy, rewarding life, the eternal optimist and levity-loving individual that I am. And my light is quite bright in my rather wide open world.

I'm still trying to figure out just what a \"vacume\" is, though. :confused:

Must be one of those liberal thingamajobs. [/QB][/QUOTE]

That is your entire pithy comeback arguement?
A complaint that I didn't use my spellchecker first?

Sigh... and I had hoped against hope for so much more...

R

>>And puhleeze, go accuse yourself or the other left-wing nutjobs here about hatred. You hypocrites are so full of hatred and rage....

And who is hating?

Who is calling names and stereotyping?

Keep hoping then, IT, keep hoping. After all, hope springs eternal.

MIB, aren't you a judge? Just answer the question. You have hijacked this thread with utterly stupid comments and never once have you answered the question. One more time, here it is..."How does disagreeing with anything to do with this current administration make one un-American"? Now, answer the question. No more pithy comments, just answer the question. Got it?

YOUR party has the White House, and majorities in BOTH Houses of Congress; yet you can't convince enough of your own party to keep driving over the cliff... and still it is the fault of the other guys.

The Admin won't even meet with the D Leadership without publicly lambasting them first.
What do you want? That everyone who does not agree with your hardline religious brand of conservative corporate worship should just automatically bow down and play dead?

Do you feel the need to stifle all opposition to anyone except your own parties voice?

Psychiatrists have a word for that...

R

It doesn't. I never said that, but you and others have steered this in that direction. Reread--s l o w l y--my original comments about a certain individual here saying it wouldn't be bad for America to be hurt and brought down to the level of those countries less fortunate.

MY party??? Huh? I highly doubt someone who has voted for as many Democrats as Republicans is a member of the GOP. I'm fiercely independent, thank-you-very-much. I just love calling on the carpet all the foaming-at-the-mouth anti-Bush nuts. They're even wackier than the anti-Clinton nuts.

Happy Independence day!

[ July 04, 2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]

Rob, And a very Happy and Glorious 4th to you, too!

Like an earlier riposteur to my last post misread, I didn't say that it was all the left's fault; I clearly said they shared fault. As I tried to explain to one who calls himself a writer, but apparently can't even read properly, "Equally at fault" =/= "causing all this trouble." To repeat, if not to clarify, because I can't believe anyone with an ounce of intelligence could be so dense unless they were playing dumb, "equally at fault" = "sharing in blame," but =/= "the fault of the other guys." What is so hard about that?

The rest of your post took me by surprise. I've never espoused any form of "hardline religious brand of conservative corporate worship," as you know full well from our PMs on the IT and jobs topics, and should know from my pattern of posts on this board. And I've never suggested stifling any opposition, particularly since I'm often one of the opposition, being a bit of a contrarian by nature. Sorry if something's off with you, but don't take it out on me. Enjoy the 4th, as I'm planning to do, starting with some laps to swim.

I am sorry - I did not mean to snap - just had a very bad day / which put me in a sharp mood...

My apologies.

R

MIB, you must have been one hell of a trial lawyer...you dance around questions better than Fred Astaire.

*Insert evil laugh here*

Hardly. I just love playing mind games. The Force has a strong influence on the weak mind. wink

Havent you heard? He's a federal judge.

Oh yes, I have heard. I assumed he started out as a trial lawyer considering his fancy footwork around questions.