http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor..._nm/belafonte_2

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021010/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/po well_belafonte_1://http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ell_belafonte_1://http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ell_belafonte_1


Could you insult our intelligence more by attempting (unsuccessfully) to deflect a viable criticism without offering what you have done that makes his Belafonte's assertion untrue?

I mean, that's interviewing 101! (that is, if there were anything.....)

I used to hear African-Americans say about Bush that Dubya was better than Clinton was in terms of "appointment relations" because Clinton never (would have?) offered positions that high in the U.S. government.

Have you noticed, though, that Powell does not have the acutal POWER of his position? Those of Clinton's cabinet actually were allowed to run their own shows. If Powell gets out of line with the "relegation-style" arrangements he's been pulling lately, he's punished. That right there is what slavery was actually like - and he's complaining about the use of a reference thereto?

True, regardless of your race or color, you can't just do anything in a responsible position without retribution. But Powell ALWAYS seems to be in this rut between a rock and a hard place where he can't speak his mind. Well, this is one time he clearly got himself into hot water in that he took the job. He did not have to (i.e., declining would have sealed his having been offered the position) - he was offered the position. But now, he has golden cuffs, no backbone, and a case of mealy mouth.

The slavery reference was potent and direct, but hey.....

Whatcha got, Mr. Secretary?

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

Viable criticism? You think calling a black man a "house slave" is viable criticism? Come on. Jeez. Are you kidding? I mean, really, are you serious? That is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Powell's response is great. This is one of those few moments in which I actually like the guy. Wow. Viable criticism? Jeez.

Belafonte's remarks are the insulting ones and insulting to ALL black Republicans. Powell was right on. If Belafonte has a specific criticism, fine. But to use the slave analogy is simply asinine. So I guess any African American who uses his constitutional rights to support whichever party they want is "a house slave who gave up his principles to come into the house of the master." Puh-leeze!!!

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

[quote]Originally posted by George_vikingfan:
Belafonte's remarks are the insulting ones and insulting to ALL black Republicans. Powell was right on. If Belafonte has a specific criticism, fine. But to use the slave analogy is simply asinine. So I guess any African American who uses his constitutional rights to support whichever party they want is "a house slave who gave up his principles to come into the house of the master." Puh-leeze!!!

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

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1/I don't get the "insult". I think Belafonte is challenging Powell to speak clearly about what he IS doing.

2/No, I don't think of the Republican Party as the "party of the master". Yet, again, I think Belafonte, was asking Powell to show us that he, as a Black man, could ENJOY a position in the Republican party AS A BLACK AMERICAN MAN, and be an example what that can mean for every American. If Powell cannot speak his professional mind as Secretary of State, what's the use of the position? This, by the way, is what I would be checking for if he is trying to use this as a step up to a second consideration of the U.S. presidency.

Powell has already put forth that he was happy to have been considered for the Presidency one time in a nation where, as a boy, he could not be served in the same food lines as White boys.

OK.

When he wants to run again, however, I will want to see that man as an adult, speaking what he wants, what he thinks, and what he stands for.

It could be that he has not yet had the opportunity to be so carefree.

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

I've traced my family's history to a great great grandmother who was probably a "black domestic servant" (house servant?) on a large farm in Maryland, and may have been their slave beforehand since she might have been harbored as a runaway. She was probably a Mulatto and might hve passed as white. I'm hesitant about asserting all of this because I have only circumstantial evidence and no oral history to support it. (shame in the family perhaps?)

Though I think Belafonte's remarks were ill-considered and shallow, I would not take personal offense at his use of the term to make a point.

Folks on both sides of the political debate have done worse.

If I remember correctly, Colin Powell has said he has no interest in running for president now or in the future. His reticence about expressing his obvious misgivings about the current course of action being suggested by his boss is understandable as a team player, but may help assure that he will be less of a player in future presidential elections.

Frankly I hope not.

His response was diplomatic and well-considered. I disagree with much he has done, most of all his lack of support of rights of gay servicemen/women to be open, but disagree more with the kind of attack Belafonte has chosen to make.

BTW: My BF was reading an interesting article in the New Yorker in which Condoleezza Rice speaks of ancestors who were house servants on both sides of her family and the author tells of her family's connections to the Powells'. It was such an interesting story he insisted on reading much of it to me out loud in bed. I found it fascinating; he thinks she's "scary." Neither of us agrees much with her politics.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

I agree with Powell's politics far more than Condoleeza's. I understand, as a Black man, where Harry Belafonte was coming from, though I think his remarks were over the top. Powell handled them well. One reason Powell is probably not so upset is that he and Belafonte have a lot in common in terms of their Jamaican ethnicity (as do Rice and Alma in terms of coming from the segregated Alabama of the 1960s and 1970s), and they have been friends for a long time. Powell has proven to be far more of a skilled diplomat than I envisioned, but he has been hamstrung by the policies of Rove, Rumsfeld, et. al. He'd have made a far more effective official in the FIRST Bush Administration--their politics are closer than his are with Bush W. He gives Bush a certain amount of cover, of course, being Black, a distinguished general, and popular across the political spectrum.

Rice is scary. Belefonte has a right to his opinions but if he's Powell's friend, wouldn't it have served the friendship better to say such words in private? And can't Belefonte come up with a more modern, more relevent analogy? Let that slave shit go, for god's sake...

[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
Rice is scary. Belefonte has a right to his opinions but if he's Powell's friend, wouldn't it have served the friendship better to say such words in private? And can't Belefonte come up with a more modern, more relevent analogy? Let that slave shit go, for god's sake...

---

In private? Why in private? I think that Powell, as an American politician, in order to satisfy ME, will have to field questions of American history, if only to show how they are no longer relevant to his platform (regardless of whether he runs for President - he still represents a platform as a U.S. politician).

I agree the slave analogy is archaic, but then so would be references to Copernicus, Mozart, or the Black Plague - when it's relevant, it should be used. Archaic does not equal "out of bounds". Furthermore, if there is a modern analogy that works as well, I would be happy to go with it.

Satisfactory for me would have been the Powell response: "I am offended by Belafonte's use of an analogy that I find archaic, yet, in this case, offensive; nevertheless, the analogy is incorrect and the assertion unfounded because I have 1, 2, 3 (his beliefs or accomplishments)."

- - - - -

Re Rice: I work on staff with a man who is a cousin (he just found out) of hers.

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

I understand what you're saying, bluebird, and don't disagree. But, if they really are friends, which is what I think I read (please correct me if I'm wrong), I feel that Mr. Belefonte owes it to his friend to confront him in private first...That's just my opinion, perhaps Belefonte had exhausted his efforts and felt a public statement would somehow be beneficial...I'm not sure though, if it has been...

What puzzles me about this dust-up is what did Harry Belafonte hope to accomplish? Have Colin Powell quit because CP would have a moment of blinding clarity and be all "Harry's right! I AM the white man's shoe shine boy"? I just don't get the reasoning behind his public attack. Anyone?

Re: Condoleeza Rice as "scary:" how so and on what actions or words of hers do you base this opinion? This is not a critique (yet), but a serious question from one who's met and spoken with Rice and found her highly intelligent and credible. If I'm missing something, I'd like to know. Just what is it about her that puts enough fear into you to call her "scary?"

[quote]Originally posted by gmginsfo:
Re: Condoleeza Rice as "scary:" how so and on what actions or words of hers do you base this opinion? This is not a critique (yet), but a serious question from one who's met and spoken with Rice and found her highly intelligent and credible. If I'm missing something, I'd like to know. Just what is it about her that puts enough fear into you to call her "scary?"

---

My bf used that term and though I normally hesitate to speak for him, I know he would never participate in this website so, knowing how he thinks (after 15 years) I'll try to clarify how "I" understood his comments.

He was largely critical of her obstinate support of war in Iraq precisely because her reasoning is so seemingly sound and she is so obivously intelligent. It is more difficult to make an arguement against someone who is convinced of their self-righteousness and has the ability to use facts selectively and effectively to support it no matter how invalid the conclusion.

You would have to read the New Yorker magazine article to realize how smug and perfect she might seem to some people because of her constant references to her family history, constantly appearing to imply their superiority. She seems to need confirmation of their, and by extension, her own self-worth.

[quote]gmginsfo said, and so did many others:
... Condoleeza Rice ...

---

Condoleezza. Two "z's," damn it. She's the smartest person in that administration, so she should at least have her name spelled right.

This is not the first time I've said this. Aren't y'all printing out my posts, putting them in a three-ring binder, and referring to them before you post here?

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/rice.html

Thanks for the spell-check twin. Correction noted and performed.

I'm glad I didn't refer to her as "Condom-leezza" as a friend of ours does, referring I assume to her virgin-like image.

Oh dear, Think I'd better start another binder.

[quote]Originally posted by twin58:


Condoleezza. Two "z's," damn it. She's the smartest person in that administration, so she should at least have her name spelled right.

This is not the first time I've said this. Aren't y'all printing out my posts, putting them in a three-ring binder, and referring to them before you post here?

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/rice.html

---

Yep, it's Condi with two "z's"--in the recent New Yorker profile, the writer stated that her mother named her after the Italian musical term "con dolcezza," meaning "with sweetness." I guess substituting an "e" for the "c" made it more Alabam(i)an.

I think Belafonte (another Italian name, of course) wanted to pop Powell a bit publicly, perhaps to provide a bit of shock. It's obvious that Powell's political stances (as well as ideological ones) are clashing with those of Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfeld and the other hawks, because Powell is a multilateralist moderate who would probably be more focused on working with ally states to root out Al Qaeda than fixating on Iraq. But he is being a good soldier and not stepping out of line, or when he does he steps back, and so Belafonte may have (wrongly) thought his comments, rude as they were, would provide a wakeup call. Or at least a somewhat humiliating slap. BTW, the slave analogy is still quite potent. De facto slavery ended less than 140 years ago; that's only 42 years before my great-aunt was born.

These last posts have been so hilarious that I'm gonna have to take a break and come back. I can't type right now.....LOLLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLO!!!!

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

This whole Bellafonte/Powell dustup put the B-man's songs in my head. I was humming the banana boat song to myself for what seemed like an eternity. Then, just as I'd almost gotten that out of my system, I'm flipping through the channels and what's playing? Beetlejuice, of course. And I hit it right at the scene where they all do the song and dance number to Day O. Ugh.

Shame on Belafonte. I think it's fine to publicly disagree with a friend by stating what stances you differ on, but the "slave" analogy is mindbogglingly inappropriate.

[quote]Originally posted by Jim Allen:
What puzzles me about this dust-up is what did Harry Belafonte hope to accomplish? Have Colin Powell quit because CP would have a moment of blinding clarity and be all "Harry's right! I AM the white man's shoe shine boy"? I just don't get the reasoning behind his public attack. Anyone?

---

You're right, but I don't see any way that keeping it private changes this fact. My guess is that they are both public fugures, friends or not, and Belafonte's beef is one that concerns the public at large. Therefore, a chat over brandy doesn't seem to fit the scope of the matter.

- - - - -

I still don't get why the reference to slavery is so offensive. I really wish I could get a satisfactory response on this one.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

I was tempted to make fun of Ms. Rice's name; but, in keeping with the reverence in which I would like my name to be held - I have withdrawn any comments thereof.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

[quote]Originally posted by bluebird48234:


I still don't get why the reference to slavery is so offensive. I really wish I could get a satisfactory response on this one.

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I believe it is offensive because the slavery reference is based solely on the fact that Powell is black, which has no bearing on how he does or does not perform his duties. Belafonte surely could have given his opinions on Powell's job performance without making such a reference. If Powell were white, the reference would have never been made, so it shouldn't be okay to make the reference just because he's black. If Belafonte where white, he would be vilified as a racist for making the reference.

Belafonte is basically calling him an Uncle Tom. I don't ehink any black would appreciate being referred to as a house slave simply for following his beliefs. Powell doesn't strike me as one to toe the line; rather he would leave the administration rather than compromise his beliefs. And because of this loyalty and integrity, he is called an Uncle Tom. That's why its offensive.