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twin58
QUOTE
gmginsfo:
... exactly how Max Cleland was maimed.  How many others knew the exact circumstances of his loss?  Coulter on Cleland
From that site:

QUOTE
Cleland lost three limbs in an accident during a routine noncombat mission where he was about to drink beer with friends. He saw a grenade on the ground and picked it up.
That's the story that's making the rounds at Free Republic. Here's the word from Max Cleland's campaign manager:

Cleland's campaign manager clarifies senator's Army service
QUOTE
Saturday, October 26, 2002

Cleland's campaign manager clarifies senator's Army service

This is in response to the letter to the editor (Sunday, Oct. 20) that inquired how Sen. Max Cleland was injured in Vietnam and whether or not he received any commendations in the war.

Army General Order 4361, dated June 9, 1968, states that the Silver Star was awarded to U.S. Army Capt. Max Cleland \"for gallantry in action while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an armed hostile force in Vietnam.\" In 1968, then Capt. Cleland was in action at the battle of Khe Sanh. Below is the language contained in his Silver Star Order:

\"Awarded: Silver Star; Date Action: 4 April 1968; Theater: Republic of Vietnam

\"Action: For gallantry in action while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an armed hostile force in the Republic of Vietnam. Captain Cleland distinguished himself by exceptionally valorous action on 4 April 1968, while serving as communications officer of the 2nd Battalion, 12th Calvary during an enemy attack near Khe Sanh, Republic of Vietnam.

\"When the battalion command post came under a heavy enemy rocket and mortar attack, Capt. Cleland, disregarding his own safety, exposed himself to the rocket barrage as he left his covered position to administer first aid to his wounded comrades. He then assisted in moving the injured personnel to covered positions. Continuing to expose himself, Capt. Cleland organized his men into a work party to repair the battalion communications equipment which had been damaged by enemy fire. His gallant action is in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflects great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.

\"Authority: By direction of the President, under the provisions of the Act of Congress, approved 9 July 1968.\"

The action cited occurred on April 4, 1968, four days before the grenade explosion that cost Sen. Cleland both legs and an arm.

As has been widely reported in the Atlanta Constitution beginning in 1968, then-Capt. Cleland, an Army Signal Officer, volunteered for infantry service to relieve the stranded Marines and members of the Army's 1st Cavalry at the battle of Khe Sanh.

While disembarking from a transport helicopter, Capt. Cleland reached for a grenade he believed had become dislodged from his web gear. Later it was discovered that the grenade belonged to a young soldier new to the theater. That soldier had improperly prepared the grenade pin for easy detonation and had dropped it while coming off the helicopter. The grenade exploded and severely injured Capt. Cleland.

The Silver Star is the third-highest valor decoration of the United States. Sen. Cleland also was awarded a Soldier's Medal, Bronze Star, Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal with Device (1960), Vietnam Service Medal, National Defense Service Medal and Parachutist Badge.

Thank you for your interest in Sen. Cleland and your interest in the campaign.

Tommy Thompson
Campaign manager, Atlanta
Well, now. I suppose this calls for a search of the official records. If you were betting, whose version would you put money on?

[ February 11, 2004, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]
jqueer
QUOTE
twin58:
 
QUOTE
gmginsfo:
... exactly how Max Cleland was maimed.  How many others knew the exact circumstances of his loss?  Coulter on Cleland
I suppose Ann was just engaging in a bit of exageration when she libeled a former US Senator.
fantomas
That stupid, slanderous, ignorant slut as usual got the facts wrong. But hey, why not? She plagiarizes, lies, and misquotes with impunity. And since she has no defense for W, why not just libel yet another WAR HERO???

But as for GMG, actually if you're buying unfounded (where is her proof of this outrageous rumor?) crap that Annslag has to say, I guess your political judgment is so off it's probably a good thing you lost to Pelosi.

[ February 11, 2004, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
MIB
QUOTE
fantomas:
That stupid, slanderous, ignorant slut
Now there's a mature, intelligent response. Once again the Left resorts to name-calling. How sad. frown
PhillyFan
WOW with all this talk of slut, hags ect...

I almost thought we were in the pork chop dixi chic skank bag thread...

my bad.

Then again she is democratic, so it's bad to call her a slut, huh fantom?
jqueer
QUOTE
Interesting. I think the media hasn't reported this for two reasons. First, it isn't sexy. As much as I love the media, and am currently trying to become a card carrying member again, I have to admit that the facts aren't always interesting, and uninteresting facts get left behind when a story is written, sometime.... often. This is not an excuse. Those facts are relevant and important to the story. They should have been reported by the media. It is an oversight that they missed it.

But the second reason has more to do with the Rebublican PR machine behind Bush's candidacy. The president wasn't absent without leave because he wasn't really absent from anything. He didn't need to be anywhere. He was a free man. Considering the number of gaurdsmen and women currently serving tours that look like they'll go longer than 12 months in Iraq and Afganistan, I wouldn't want to be the PR guy who had to once again explain that service in the national gaurd during Veitnam was an honorable service to the country along side justifying Bush's absence from that service by saying he wasn't really supposed to be doing anything.

Again, those who are opposed to the President aren't going to be convinced that his national gaurd service was anything but a dodge not available to most people whose parents weren't oil barons. On the other hand, Bush needs the people who voted for Clinton to vote for him, so I suppose he can argue what he did was no more cowardly than what Clinton did. But in light of the current evidence, he certainly can't argue it was any less.
twin58
QUOTE
MIB
Why did the media fail to report the facts?
Your link goes to an op-ed piece, not a news article. The op-ed piece, though, refers to an article that appeared in George magazine in 2000, \"The Real Military Record of George W. Bush: Not Heroic, but Not AWOL, Either.\" Googling, we find a little over 200 hits for that article. Here is that article.

The Real Military Record of George W. Bush: Not Heroic, but Not AWOL, Either

QUOTE
The Real Military Record of George W. Bush: Not Heroic, but Not AWOL, Either

By Peter Keating and Karthik Thyagarajan

....
On or around his 27th birthday, July 6, 1972, Bush did not take his required annual medical exam at his Texas unit. As a consequence, he was suspended from flying military jets. Bush spokesperson Dan Bartlett told Georgemag.com: \"You take that exam because you are flying, and he was not flying. The paperwork uses the phrase 'suspended from flying,' but he had no intention of flying at that time.\"
....
I am reminded of my pre-induction physical. I vividly recall arriving at the University Hall parking lot in Charlottesville early one morning 32 years ago this spring, getting on the bus with several other UVa students and male citizens of the area, and taking an all-expenses-paid, meals-included, round trip to the Army's facility in Richmond VA.

I was not "asked" to take the physical. I was told to take it. Failure to have taken it would have landed me in jail.

In this instance, we have a commissioned officer, the recipient of several months of expensive flight training, deciding that he need not take a required physical, on the grounds that "he had no intention of flying at that time."

Perhaps some of the veterans here at Outsports, when they stop laughing, can chime in with their obversations.

[ February 12, 2004, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: twin58 ]
bobby78751
QUOTE
twin58:
In this instance, we have a commissioned officer, the recipient of several months of expensive flight training, deciding that he need not take a required physical, on the grounds that \"he had no intention of flying at that time.\"
Once again, the traits of a spoiled, stubborn little boy thumbing his nose at the system.
RazorbackTX
Chimpy McAWOL, Version 27

Pick a lie and stick with it!
bobby78751
QUOTE
RazorbackTX:
Chimpy McAWOL, Version 27

Pick a lie and stick with it!
This is the document, posted earlier that verifies he was denied a transfer...just the spoild baby doing whatever the hell he pleases even when others tell him no...I guess he was wanting to be in Alabama because it's closer to Lynchburg, Tennessee. smile.gif
The Document
twin58
The White House has had a change of mind. They won't be releasing Bush's records.

1973 Document Puts Bush on Guard Base

QUOTE
By Mike Allen and Lois Romano
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, February 12, 2004; Page A01

The White House last night released a document showing that President Bush was at a military base in Alabama during the last year of his National Guard service, but aides backed away from his weekend pledge to release all his military records.

Bush's staff provided copies of a one-page record of a dental exam, complete with drawings of Bush's teeth, that showed he was at Dannelly Air National Guard base in Montgomery, Ala., on Jan. 6, 1973.
....

More indications emerged yesterday that some details of Bush's service may never be known. Lt. Col. Robert Horton, a spokesman for the Alabama National Guard, said yesterday that no records exist in Alabama that would confirm Bush's temporary duty in Montgomery in 1972.
....

The White House has been unable to produce peers from Bush's service in Alabama. But Bill Burkett, a retired lieutenant colonel in the Texas National Guard, said in an interview with The Washington Post this week that he overheard a speakerphone call about Bush's National Guard file in 1997, when Bush was Texas governor. Burkett said he was in a National Guard office when he overheard Joseph M. Allbaugh, then Bush's chief of staff, tell an officer in reference to Bush's military file that he \"needed to make sure there was nothing to embarrass the governor.\"

Burkett said he later witnessed some items from Bush's file in the trash. Bush officials and Allbaugh denied these allegations. Bartlett called them \"outrageous.\"

Researcher Lucy Shackelford contributed to this report.
"Lieutenant Bush, reporting for dental exam, sir!"

Mission accomplished.
fantomas
QUOTE
MIB:
 
QUOTE
fantomas:
That stupid, slanderous, ignorant slut
Now there's a mature, intelligent response. Once again the Left resorts to name-calling. How sad. sad.gif
This person--Coulter--viciously libeled a war hero. I know you can't bother to read anything that isn't right-wing-leaning, but read the citation of valor for Cleland. Did the Army and Nixon and everyone else make that up? As for Coulter, she has been proved repeated to lie at will, and to have misquoted or plagiarized others' works; and yet we have someone quoting her as if anything she says is valid. Her ignorance and stupidity are well known, and I don't believe she'd deny she's given it up for the price of a cheap cocktail on occasion, so it's just "truth-telling." How sad.
bobby78751
QUOTE
fantomas:
As for Coulter, she has been proved repeated to lie at will.
Wow! And all this time, I thought she was the original long-haired blonde and all the other long-haired blonde women copied her style. I am stunned. smile.gif Arf! Arf! To the blonde bitch!
KeyWest Guy
Intersting article in USA Today about Shrub's people attempting to sanitize the Guard records prior to their release. USA TODAY

Of course, Bush's people labeled the accuser as a disgruntled liar. rolleyes.gif
gmginsfo
QUOTE
MIB:
 
QUOTE
fantomas:
That stupid, slanderous, ignorant slut
Now there's a mature, intelligent response. Once again the Left resorts to name-calling. How sad. sad.gif
And mean-spirited, cheap-shotting, too!

Originally posted by fantomas:
But as for GMG, actually if you're buying unfounded (where is her proof of this outrageous rumor?) crap that Annslag has to say, I guess your political judgment is so off it's probably a good thing you lost to Pelosi.
RazorbackTX
I think I have the perfect solution for the White House:

"Although the president rarely showed up for duty, he was involved in National Guard related activity programs."
twin58
Reader E-mails on Bush's Military Service

one timely example:

QUOTE
As a lesbian former Army officer who served in Kuwait for 6 months in 1992 as part of Operation Southern Watch, I find it unbelievable that my family and I are about to be written out of the U.S. Constitution via a \"federal marriage amendment\" by a man who couldn't be bothered to show up for National Guard service.

Yes, you may use my name.

Lara Ballard, Washington, D.C.
ung
to say the least, W.Bush and the White House have been dragging their feet and only grudgingly release documents when they feel they have no other recourse.

Yet it must be noted that their tactics have been one of denial and stalling... and then, and only then, releasing the minimum number of documents necessary to try to get people off Bush's back.

hmmmmm..... doesn't that sound an awful lot like the stall tactics the Bush people have quoted as reason for the Iraqi invasion? after all... the White House has had plenty of time to come clean about his national Guard attendance and dispel any errors (since 1994, by the White House's own reckoning) but all they do is delay and hide.

So then.... by Bush's own logic, it is now permissible to launch an attack on the White House. A shock and awe campaign against the Oval Office anyone?

[ February 15, 2004, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: ung ]
MIB
QUOTE
fantomas:
This person--Coulter--viciously libeled a war hero.  I know you can't bother to read anything that isn't right-wing-leaning, but read the citation of valor for Cleland.  Did the Army and Nixon and everyone else make that up?  As for Coulter, she has been proved repeated to lie at will, and to have misquoted or plagiarized others' works; and yet we have someone quoting her as if anything she says is valid.  Her ignorance and stupidity are well known, and I don't believe she'd deny she's given it up for the price of a cheap cocktail on occasion, so it's just \"truth-telling.\"  How sad.
Why do you keep bringing up Coulter as if I'm some fan of hers? I never have been nor ever will be. I don't even think she's entertaining. I've never read one of her riduculous tomes, and care less what she says.

I love the way you and your ilk defend the hurling of personal insults and attacks. Instead of condemnding them, you bring up others'. How typical. How sad.
twin58
From This Modern World:

QUOTE
Col. William Campenni (retired), the guy who's been writing letters claiming that Bush [wasn't AWOL], is going to be on Washington Journal tomorrow morning (7:30 am EST).
C-SPAN
timber07
QUOTE
twin58:
From This Modern World:

 
QUOTE
Col. William Campenni (retired), the guy who's been writing letters claiming that Bush [wasn't AWOL], is going to be on Washington Journal tomorrow morning (7:30 am EST).
C-SPAN
It doesn't matter what he says; Kerry will just say it "raises more questions" about what REALLY happened.
MarcusF
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
You know this is my point.

Dean-o averted the system and didnt serve because of his bad back... then went Skiing.  Ok in everyone's book.

Bubba went to other nations rather than be drafted for the war... OK.

W has a nice cush cush position where he would never fight.  

What is the difference?  
The difference is that Dino, Bubba et al were all upfront about it. Not only did Shrub not show up, he has repeatedly LIED about it ever since.
ung
and perhaps more importantly, Clinton and Dean never went strutting around in flight suits landing fighter jets (as W boasted again this weekend at the Daytona 500) and trying to portray himself as some glorified military hero.

W. has clearly been trying to portray himself as such. This is offered as a principal reason why we should trust W with our nations security during this time of "war"

Clinton and Dean have never pretended to military honor status.
Jim Allen
QUOTE
and perhaps more importantly, Clinton and Dean never went strutting around in flight suits landing fighter jets (as W boasted again this weekend at the Daytona 500) and trying to portray himself as some glorified military hero
That's it, in a nutshell. Almost everything about Bush's image is a fraud: he's a son of privelege who went to Harvard and Yale but he protrays himself as a good ole' boy. He portrays himself as an ordinary Texas rancher, but the spread in Crawford was only bought in 1999 (I think) and they have to borrow the cattle from a neighboring ranch for photo ops; it's a prop. Apparently, he's afraid of horses. The whole military thing is just another example. He can pose on flight decks and give out turkey, but his own record in the military is abysmal at best, a lie at worst, all the while he's slashing military benefits.
fantomas
True about that flight suit stunt--which I have to say, in W's defense (I can't believe I'm actually defending the man!) was probably planned by Rove and Rumsfeld, and W, like a good little puppet, went right along with it. As he always does.

I just wish the media (other than the BOSTON GLOBE) had done their job in 2000, when Al Gore's legitimate service in Vietnam was ridiculed and mocked. No, he didn't win Silver Stars, he wasn't a POW, he didn't lose limbs, but he volunteered and served the nation IN VIETNAM. Yet the hypocritical chickenhawks especially made great hay of this. Now they're antic in their defense of W. Typical--typically pathetic.

[ February 16, 2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
Jim Allen
Hmmm....is Philly Fan sending letters to Calpundit?
QUOTE
FROM THE MAILBAG....I don't usually print crank email, but every once in a while I get one too good not to share:

From: xxx
To: calpundit@cox.net
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 7:42 PM
Subject: Melicious Rumors About Our President

Dear Mr. Cal:

I want to be very clear about these incredibbly melicious rumors that are sweeping the country like a bad cold or flew. I cannot beleive that any Americans are so Un-Patriotic to repeat them, and they are giving AID AND COMFORT to out enemies around the world. The latest rumor is President Bush was told to leave the Texas Air National Guard and to get treated for alcohol problems and that they would not let him fly until he was treated. This is just entirly and completley untrue. He did not have no drinking problem then and he does not have one now. And he never flied any jets after he was drinking. It is outrageis for this kind of compleet BULL...T to repeeted by your stupid pathetic outfit and also by newspapers!

ALL YOU FRENCH loving ass****s who repeat this lies are hurting our country. You should all move to Frnace where you belong.

Ted R
A Loyal American
I like these from the comments:
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And Loyal Ted, I think everyone doubts it was Bush's frequent alcoholic dazes that kept him from flying, far more likely that it was his frequent cocaine binges. His alcohol binges just had him running into cars and fences, and screaming obscenities at people in front of their young children in public places
QUOTE
I think it is interesting to see that he felt the need to self-censor \"bullshit,\" but calling all of us \"french-loving ass****s\" was completely within the bounds of respectable speech
Tee hee.
ung
Fantomas,

There's a reason why the Gore campaign didn't focus on the AWOL issue.

They were afraid if Gore attacked on "personal" background things, the republicans would retaliate by focusing on all the outlandish claims Gore had made about the internet, Love Story etc.
FeverDog
Okay, all together now:


Al Gore did not claim he "invented" the Internet, nor did he say anything that could reasonably be interpreted that way.


QUOTE
The derisive \"Al Gore said he 'invented' the Internet\" put-downs are misleading distortions of something he said (taken out of context) during an interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN's \"Late Edition\" program on 9 March 1999.
Jim Allen
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Gore did NOT make "outlandish" claims. It was lies by the Republican lapdog media that keep that bullshit--"I invented the Internet"--alive. Go here to learn the truth. The way the corporate media treated Gore in 1999/2000 was DISGUSTING. They're a bunch of bootlicking whores who will do it to the Democratic nominee again unless people call them on their shit.

[ February 16, 2004, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]
ung
You guys know me to be fair when it comes to shit like this.

having said that.... Al Gore has claimed that the appropriations he sponsored and pushed through spurred the invention of the internet (at first used by govt agencies only) and therefore (by extension) claimed credit for its "creation".
It must be noted that even the article you cite (link above) to dispute what I said, says that Gore's words were self serving and stretching the truth. as Gore did not "create the internet"

That is not republican spin. Gore did in fact say that.

as for the Love Story thing..... I'm like .... God! Is he gonna claim to be "Billy Jack" (portrayed by his college roommate Tommy Lee Jones) next?

QUOTE
\"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system\"
many of the components of today's Internet came into being well before Gore's first term in Congress began in 1977, and it's hard to find any specific action of Gore's (such as his sponsoring a Congressional bill or championing a particular piece of legislation) that one could claim helped bring the Internet into being, much less validate Gore's statement of having taken the \"initiative in creating the Internet.\"
(from the link provided in the earlier post)
.

 


[ February 16, 2004, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: ung ]
twin58
QUOTE
ung
... Gore.... Is he gonna claim to be \"Billy Jack\" (portrayed by his college roommate Tommy Lee Jones) next?
If you're referring to the Billy Jack from all those cheesy 70s movies, at least in the original \"Billy Jack,\" the part of Billy Jack was played by Tom Laughlin. I caught part of this on TV about a month ago, and it was every bit as hard to stomach now as it ever was. Maybe in the later movies Tommy Lee Jones played the part of Billy Jack, but it is cruel and unusual punishment to have to sit through those things to make that determination.
GatorJamie
QUOTE
twin58:
 
QUOTE
As a lesbian former Army officer who served in Kuwait for 6 months in 1992...Lara Ballard, Washington, D.C.
I know her. She's a good person.
DestinyRules
QUOTE
Jim Allen:
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.  Gore did NOT make \"outlandish\" claims.  It was lies by the Republican lapdog media that keep that bullshit--\"I invented the Internet\"--alive.
No one seems to like the media. The Repugnicans kvetch about "liberal bias" and now someone is saying "Republican lapdog media." When will it ever end? Never.

I'd say "creating" the Internet or "inventing" the Internet or whatever Al Gore said was plenty outlandish.

And that "loyal American" Ted? Is he a first grade dropout?
ung
anyway... back to the earlier topic...

whether you agree with me and the "Gore created the internet" thing or not, the fact is that the Gore camp took the threat of retaliation and ridicule for Gore's claims seriously enough to keepquiet about W and the AWOL issue.

That is also fact.
bobby78751
Even the liar's liars can't get their stories straight...

QUOTE
John B. Calhoun, an Atlanta resident who served for 28 years in the Air Force and the Alabama Guard, told TIME he clearly remembers Bush reporting for duty on weekends starting in the summer of 1972, apparently before Bush officially requested reassignment there.

Calhoun explained that Bush signed into his office and mainly read training manuals and safety magazines, signing out at the end of each drilling day. Bush kept a low profile, Calhoun said, and sometimes ate lunch with Calhoun in the snack bar.

But there are some discrepancies in Calhoun's account: he claimed Bush turned up more often than was indicated in Bush's official pay records for the period. And many other veterans of the 187th do not recall seeing Bush on base.
CNN STORY
ung
I figured he was a "plant". Seems to be correct.
Jim Allen
Ung, I don't know what article you got that bit you quoted from--I linked to a Google page with dozens of articles, it could have been any one of them. From The Daily Howler of 12/3/02:
QUOTE
CHAPTER II—THE RNC SPEAKS: How was Gore made into a liar? Gore made his comment on March 9; after two days of silence from the press corps, the RNC swung into action. At mid-day on Thursday, March 11, a story written by Michelle Mittelstadt appeared on the AP wire. “Republicans pounce on Gore’s claim that he created the Internet,” the headline said. But had Gore really said he created the Internet? A new GOP press release said that he had—and so did the new AP headline. Indeed, showing off her writerly skills, Mittelstadt began her crucial report with a second tendentious paraphrase:

MITTELSTADT: Vice President Al Gore’s claim that he is the father of the Internet drew amused protests Thursday from congressional Republicans.
But had Gore really said he was father of the Internet? The language was entertaining—and highly tendentious—but it wasn’t drawn from Gore’s actual statement. No matter—on the morning of March 11, GOP leaders had released statements in which they’d attacked Gore’s remark.

Mittelstadt began with Dick Armey:
MITTELSTADT: House Majority Leader Dick Armey, R-Texas, said that even under the time-honored tradition of politicians taking credit for everything, Gore’s statement is an “outrageous claim.” Gore, who is widely credited for coining the term “information superhighway,” raised eyebrows with a pronouncement he made Tuesday during a CNN interview.

As we’ve seen, that last statement by Mittelstadt was wildly misleading. Gore’s “pronouncement” hadn’t “raised any eyebrows” with Blitzer, for example; Blitzer said nothing when Gore made his statement. Nor had it “raised any eyebrows” at the AP itself; on March 9 and 10, the service had filed several reports on the interview, none of which mentioned Gore’s comment. No, Gore’s “pronouncement” had only “raised eyebrows” among his Republican political rivals, several of whom Mittelstadt now quoted. For example, she quoted Rep. James Sensenbrenner, who said, “Gore taking credit for creating the Internet certainly gives new meaning to the term ‘March madness.’” The next day, the AP quoted a press release from RNC chairman Jim Nicholson. “Al Gore the father of the Internet?” he asked. Gore was “claim[ing] credit for other people’s successes,” according to the RNC chief. (Nicholson, of course, would play the press corps for fools throughout the election. Revisit his tour of the fancy hotel. Links are provided below.)

In her influential report, Mittelstadt committed one of the press corps’ most common sins; she took an unremarkable statement by Gore and paraphrased it in the most tendentious way possible—which also happened to be the way Gore’s political rivals were spinning it. Had Gore ever claimed to be “father of the Internet?” The language didn’t appear in his statement, but it now led Mittelstadt’s AP report. And now, the press corps—having ignored Gore’s remark for two solid days—began to file excited reports uncritically adopting the GOP’s spin-points. Indeed, some of the GOP’s most tendentious language was simply adopted, word-for-word, by major members of the press. On March 11, for example, Sensenbrenner’s press release carried this headline: “DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR: VICE PRESIDENT GORE TAKES CREDIT FOR CREATING THE INTERNET.” On March 12, Lou Dobbs cribbed from the statement on Moneyline, his nightly CNN program. Dobbs called Gore’s remarks “a case study tonight in delusions of grandeur,” just as Sensenbrenner had done. And Gore “apparently thinks he’s the Father of the Internet,” Dobbs said, using a key phrase from Nicholson’s statement! That’s right, kids! Dobbs took “delusions of grandeur” straight from Sensenbrenner, and “father of the Internet” straight from Nicholson; like Mittelstadt, he directly adopted the GOP’s tendentious accounts of what Gore supposedly said. But there were a few things Lou Dobbs didn’t do in his report, in which he trashed Gore for his “delusions.” He didn’t describe Gore’s important work in the Congress—and he never quoted Gore’s actual statement. But so it would go throughout this election, as RNC-scripted spinners like Dobbs ginned up nasty campaigns against Gore, confounding ideas about who runs the media. On March 11, the GOP said that Gore had “delusions of grandeur.” The next day, CNN—which said nothing about Gore’s remark in real time—went ahead and used the nasty phrase too.
QUOTE
as for the Love Story thing..... I'm like .... God! Is he gonna claim to be \"Billy Jack\" (portrayed by his college roommate Tommy Lee Jones) next?
Oh, THAT piece of lying from the corporate media? Again, from the superb Daily Howler
QUOTE
Which sort of took some of the fun away, because everyone agreed there had been such a story, published in the Nashville Tennessean during the Segal book tour. In fact, Henneberger had already quoted Segal, right there in paragraph 15:

HENNEBERGER: In their phone conversation a few days ago, Mr. Gore reminded Mr. Segal that while Mr. Segal was on his book tour for “Love Story,” a reporter for the Nashville Tennessean who knew that Mr. Gore and the author were friends had asked if there was not a little bit of Al Gore in Oliver Barrett. Mr. Segal said yes, there was, but the reporter “just exaggerated,” Mr. Segal said. “He made it to be the local-hero angle.”
Let’s see if we have this straight. Gore said that he read it in a newspaper quoting Segal (Tumulty: “He said all I know is that’s what he told reporters”). Everyone agreed there had been such a story (although Henneberger didn’t seem to have researched it).

One would think this news, in a rational world, would have been the end of this whole silly story. And a familiar story it would have been, given the morés of our celebrity press. A reporter in Tennessee had exaggerated a bit, misquoting Erich Segal. Then a reporter from Time slightly misquoted Gore in reporting something he had said. Then Maureen Dowd, a thousand miles away, somehow knew that she’d spotted Gore’s motive. You know--the motive he had in saying the thing that it turned out he hadn’t quite said?

All just a part of the bumbling way CelebCorps assembles its stories. We’ve shown it to you again and again, in our own unassailable way. But we’ve told you something else, dear friends: the press corps never gives up a good story. When facts emerge that damage good tales, the facts will give way every time.
To recap: Al Gore did NOT say he "invented" the Internet, he CORRECTLY said he took the initiative in getting goverment funding for it. Even that scumbag deluxe Newt Gingrich said he did. He WAS one of the people that Seagal based the character in Love Story on.

I only bring this up to point out that in the context of this thread, saying "the Bush AWOL story has been settled" is a lie. There's still more to the story--did he not take the physical because he was snorting coke at the time?--and just because some media whore in the corporate media declares it a dead issue doesn't make it so. The kind of shit that Gore went through in 2000 is already happened to Dean and it's going to happen to Kerry or Edwards for the next nine months.
ung
Jim,

The quote I used was from the link supplied by Feverdog earlier in his post. He was using that link to say that I was wrong.

However, the proof FOR Gore is just as damning and damaging as proof against Gore.

and I'm not evcen gonna go there about the reputations of Time vs that of "The Daily Howler"
fantomas
QUOTE
ung:
as for the Love Story thing..... I'm like .... God! Is he gonna claim to be \"Billy Jack\" (portrayed by his college roommate Tommy Lee Jones) next?
Ung, I expect better out of you....

First, Tommy Lee Jones wasn't \"Billy Jack.\" Tom Laughlin wrote and played the part.

Second, the author of LOVE STORY, Erich Segal, was a professor of classics at Harvard during the time that Gore and Jones were undergraduates. He DID BASE OLIVER BARRETT IV in part on Gore, Jones and others he knew. Segal, the author, has VERIFIED this fact. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

But here's the link to THE DAILY HOWLER that shows how the media simply cannot get things right:

Daily Howler: Love Canal & Love Story
QUOTE

The Love Story nonsense began in late 1997—invented by a Maureen Dowd column—and in the aftermath of that piece, Melinda Henneberger wrote a lengthy story on the topic for the Sunday New York Times (12/14/97). No one has ever disputed the facts she reported; pundits have simply preferred to ignore them. But what Henneberger reported, two years ago, contradicts both the things Connolly still says.

First question: Did Gore \"inspire Love Story?\" As part of her research, Henneberger interviewed Erich Segal, who had known Gore at Harvard while writing Love Story. And sorry, folks, we hate to upset you, but here's Henneberger, on what Segal said:

HENNEBERGER: The character of the preppy Harvard hockey player Oliver Barrett 4th was modeled on both Mr. Gore and his college roommate, the actor Tommy Lee Jones.

According to Segal, Jones had been the model for the \"macho athlete with the heart of a poet\" part of the character, and Gore had been the model for the young college student with a highly accomplished father to live up to.

So Gore had been a \"model\" for the part. Parsing pundits will doubtless note: none of this means that Gore \"inspired\" Love Story. But it also became clear in Henneberger's piece that Gore had made no such claim. Gore's meaningless remarks about Love Story had been made on a long, late-night plane ride, in a conversation with two respected reporters—Rick Berke of the New York Times, and Karen Tumulty of Time. Henneberger interviewed both reporters. Sorry, folks, we hate to disappoint you, but here's Tumulty's account of what Gore said:

HENNEBERGER: \"[Gore] said Segal had told some reporters in Tennessee that it was based on him and Tipper,\" Ms. Tumulty said. \"He said all I know is that's what he told reporters in Tennessee.\"

Berke agreed that Gore attributed the story to reporters in Tennessee. And sure enough, Segal confirmed that there had been such a story, in the Nashville Tennessean. Segal told Henneberger that the reporter \"just exaggerated\" a bit, playing \"the local-hero angle;\" for example, Segal said the reporter added Tipper Gore into the mix, though she had not been the model for Love Story's other lead character in the tale, Jenny Cavilleri.

Incredible, isn't it, that this sort of nonsense inspires our press two years later? That on the basis of absolute idiocy like this, a major public figure is called \"delusional\" on TV, and a reporter who can't even get simple quotes right calls his character into question? Two years later! Welcome to the riot of nonsense and spin we laughingly call our public discourse—and welcome to the world of Ceci Connolly, whose grisly work for the Washington Post has been on this level all year.

But the facts of this story, as reported two years ago, are, sad to say, all too simple. Gore told reporters that he had seen a newspaper story saying he and Tipper were the models for Love Story. That's \"all I know,\" Gore had said. And everyone agrees such a story did exist. In a rational world, that would end the silly tale, but for the record, Segal said that Gore and Jones were the two models for the Ryan O'Neal part. Now read again what Connolly wrote—two years later—and raise a cup to our great public discourse:

CONNOLLY: [Gore] mistakenly claimed to have inspired the movie \"Love Story.\"

Say hello to our brilliant celebrity press corps, 1999 style.
Daily Howler: More on the Gore/Ollie Barrett IV
Jim Allen
QUOTE
I'd say \"creating\" the Internet or \"inventing\" the Internet or whatever Al Gore said was plenty outlandish.
Arrrrgggghhhh! It's. a. f**king. LIE. Period. He did not claim either of those things. I don't know what site Ung went to get his quote above--I posted a link to pages of Google hits on the subject, not one specific article--but here's the excellent Daily Howler breakdown of how that lie started, and apparently, still gets spread:
QUOTE
In the March 21 Washington Post, for example, Jason Schwartz quoted several Internet pioneers, including Vinton Cerf, the man often called “the father of the Internet.” Cerf praised Gore’s role in the Net’s development. “I think it is very fair to say that the Internet would not be where it is in the United States without the strong support given to it and related research areas by the vice president,” he said. Meanwhile, Katie Hafner, author of a book on the Internet’s origins, penned a short piece in the New York Times, quoting experts who said that Gore “helped lift the Internet from relative obscurity and turn it into a widely accessible, commercial network.” On March 18, Gore tried to clarify his remark in an interview with USA Today. “I did take the lead in the Congress,” he told Chuck Raasch; he described his Internet work in detail. Raasch quoted Gore’s explanation—but it was mentioned in no other paper.
And even that scumbag supreme Newt Gingrich had to concede as such:
QUOTE
GINGRICH: In all fairness, it’s something Gore had worked on a long time. Gore is not the Father of the Internet, but in all fairness, Gore is the person who, in the Congress, most systematically worked to make sure that we got to an Internet, and the truth is—and I worked with him starting in 1978 when I got [to Congress], we were both part of a “futures group”—the fact is, in the Clinton administration, the world we had talked about in the ’80s began to actually happen
And here's the corporate media whores at work and play:
QUOTE
CHAPTER II—THE RNC SPEAKS: How was Gore made into a liar? Gore made his comment on March 9; after two days of silence from the press corps, the RNC swung into action. At mid-day on Thursday, March 11, a story written by Michelle Mittelstadt appeared on the AP wire. “Republicans pounce on Gore’s claim that he created the Internet,” the headline said. But had Gore really said he created the Internet? A new GOP press release said that he had—and so did the new AP headline. Indeed, showing off her writerly skills, Mittelstadt began her crucial report with a second tendentious paraphrase:

MITTELSTADT: Vice President Al Gore’s claim that he is the father of the Internet drew amused protests Thursday from congressional Republicans.
But had Gore really said he was father of the Internet? The language was entertaining—and highly tendentious—but it wasn’t drawn from Gore’s actual statement. No matter—on the morning of March 11, GOP leaders had released statements in which they’d attacked Gore’s remark. Mittelstadt began with Dick Armey:
MITTELSTADT: House Majority Leader Dick Armey, R-Texas, said that even under the time-honored tradition of politicians taking credit for everything, Gore’s statement is an “outrageous claim.”
Gore, who is widely credited for coining the term “information superhighway,” raised eyebrows with a pronouncement he made Tuesday during a CNN interview.

As we’ve seen, that last statement by Mittelstadt was wildly misleading. Gore’s “pronouncement” hadn’t “raised any eyebrows” with Blitzer, for example; Blitzer said nothing when Gore made his statement. Nor had it “raised any eyebrows” at the AP itself; on March 9 and 10, the service had filed several reports on the interview, none of which mentioned Gore’s comment. No, Gore’s “pronouncement” had only “raised eyebrows” among his Republican political rivals, several of whom Mittelstadt now quoted. For example, she quoted Rep. James Sensenbrenner, who said, “Gore taking credit for creating the Internet certainly gives new meaning to the term ‘March madness.’” The next day, the AP quoted a press release from RNC chairman Jim Nicholson. “Al Gore the father of the Internet?” he asked. Gore was “claim[ing] credit for other people’s successes,” according to the RNC chief. (Nicholson, of course, would play the press corps for fools throughout the election. Revisit his tour of the fancy hotel. Links are provided below.)

In her influential report, Mittelstadt committed one of the press corps’ most common sins; she took an unremarkable statement by Gore and paraphrased it in the most tendentious way possible—which also happened to be the way Gore’s political rivals were spinning it. Had Gore ever claimed to be “father of the Internet?” The language didn’t appear in his statement, but it now led Mittelstadt’s AP report. And now, the press corps—having ignored Gore’s remark for two solid days—began to file excited reports uncritically adopting the GOP’s spin-points. Indeed, some of the GOP’s most tendentious language was simply adopted, word-for-word, by major members of the press.

On March 11, for example, Sensenbrenner’s press release carried this headline: “DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR: VICE PRESIDENT GORE TAKES CREDIT FOR CREATING THE INTERNET.” On March 12, Lou Dobbs cribbed from the statement on Moneyline, his nightly CNN program. Dobbs called Gore’s remarks “a case study tonight in delusions of grandeur,” just as Sensenbrenner had done. And Gore “apparently thinks he’s the Father of the Internet,” Dobbs said, using a key phrase from Nicholson’s statement! That’s right, kids! Dobbs took “delusions of grandeur” straight from Sensenbrenner, and “father of the Internet” straight from Nicholson; like Mittelstadt, he directly adopted the GOP’s tendentious accounts of what Gore supposedly said. But there were a few things Lou Dobbs didn’t do in his report, in which he trashed Gore for his “delusions.” He didn’t describe Gore’s important work in the Congress—and he never quoted Gore’s actual statement. But so it would go throughout this election, as RNC-scripted spinners like Dobbs ginned up nasty campaigns against Gore, confounding ideas about who runs the media. On March 11, the GOP said that Gore had “delusions of grandeur.” The next day, CNN—which said nothing about Gore’s remark in real time—went ahead and used the nasty phrase too
So, to recap: Gore never said he invented the Internet, only that he was instrumental in getting research efforts and money directed towards it, WHICH HE WAS. The rest is the corporate media doing what it does best: lie and spin and lazily copy shit without doing some basic reporting, like, oh, seeing if it's true.

I only point this stuff out to make the point that if someone in the corporate media writes that the Bush AWOL story is finished and settled, they're lying. For example, why didn't the Usurper take the physical? [Church Lady voice] Could it be.....he was snorting cocaine and didn't want that to show up on a drugs test? Hmmmmmm? [/Church Lady voice] There's still holes in his story, they HAVEN'T released all the records, the records that they have released have most likely been "sanitized" etc. And the same shit the media whores did to Gore is going to happen to the Democratic nominee for the next nine months. That loser Drudge already tried a smear campaign and it failed but it's just the first of many attempts. Hopefully, the facts will win out and not the lazy-ass reporting like in the two Gore examples.

[ February 17, 2004, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]
fantomas
More about W and his service.

According to the Texas Code of Military Justice, it clearly states in the section Absent Without Leave - 432.131:

“A person … shall be punished as a court martial directs if the person without authority:
1) fails to go to his appointed place of duty at the time prescribed;
2) goes from that place; or
3) absents himself or remains absent from his unit, organization or place of duty at which he is required to be at the time prescribed.

So my questions are, if W "went from that place" and wasn't present "at the time prescribed" and "absent[ed] himself or remain[ed] absent from his unit" as the pay stubs appear to indicate, what do people call this?

Furthermore, why wasn't W prosecuted? Why wasn't he court-martialed? If current Texas National Guard troops were to violate what is a clear directive here, would they not be prosecuted?

There are many lawyers (perhaps even some JG folks) who may have the answers to this, so please enlighten me.

[ February 22, 2004, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
twin58
QUOTE
Let's add an update to this.

For 'gutter politics,' look to the Bush camp

QUOTE
Jim Boyd, Star Tribune  
Published February 20, 2004

... Ann Coulter. Here's what she had to say this week: \"Cleland lost three limbs in an accident during a routine noncombat mission where he was about to drink beer with friends. He saw a grenade on the ground and picked it up. He could have done that at Fort Dix.\" Coulter's version is akin to saying that John F. Kennedy was injured in World War II while taking a boat ride.

Here's what really happened: In March 1968, the Tet offensive staged by the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong was winding down -- except at Khe Sanh, a Marine outpost famous for the siege it endured. An Army-Marine team was put together to relieve the Khe Sanh garrison and Cleland, an Army captain, volunteered. The combat his unit saw was heavy. At one point Cleland, the battalion signals officer, was told to set up a radio site on a hill near Khe Sanh. As he was helicoptered in with a couple of young soldiers (presumably because it was too dangerous to walk or drive), he told the pilot he was going to stay awhile because he knew some of the guys on the hill. Maybe have a beer with them, he said. As the soldiers left the helicopter, Cleland noticed a grenade on the ground. He thought he'd dropped it and leaned down to pick it up. It exploded, shredding one arm and both legs. It took a heroic effort by medics and doctors to keep him alive.

It is sick that Coulter can take that story and make it sound as if Cleland was safely ensconced at some rear area, ambling toward the officer's club for a few brews. She also fails to mention that Cleland won a Silver Star a week before he lost his limbs -- he was honored for braving enemy fire to tend wounded troops.

There's more: The new Republican story about Kerry himself is that his Vietnam experience is sort of exaggerated. Heck, he was only there two months, the Republican shills for this line say. Well, actually, he was there for closer to four months. And the reason he was rotated home? Because he'd been wounded three times -- not to mention winning Bronze and Silver stars along with three Purple Hearts.

Finally, there's the granddaddy of them all: Bush's gutter job on Sen. John McCain in the South Carolina primary of 2000. Bush lost to McCain in New Hampshire and wasn't going to allow it to happen again. So the Bush team resorted to what are called \"push polls.\" They're designed to plant seeds of doubt about candidates. In South Carolina, callers asked those they were polling questions like: Would you be more or less likely to vote for McCain if you knew he'd fathered a black child out of wedlock? Some had him fathering the child with a prostitute. Others inquired whether voters knew that McCain's wife was a drug addict. And did they know he had abandoned his crippled first wife? It was nasty, nasty stuff, and it caused McCain to lose his composure in public, which didn't help his cause at all.
....

Democrats are capable of some of this, too. But for sheer effrontery, no one can hold a candle to Bush, his father and those who work for them, beginning with the late Lee Atwater and continuing through Rove. When it comes to truly gutter politics, they wrote the book -- or at least the modern version.

Jim Boyd, deputy editor of the editorial pages, is at jboyd@startribune.com.
ung
why is it that people who write posts that are pages and pages long (in this case Jim Allen) can't read a post that is much shorter and clearly answers their question?

again to answer your question of where I got that quote, please refer to feverdog's post (fever dog happens to agree with Jim allen. He disagrees with me) He used an article to refute what I said. However, upon closer reading, the article actually validates what I said.

so one more time..... Not my article. Not my quote. if you have a problem with the assertions therein, please address that to the article.

and Fantomas, You were right. I expect better of me too. But I really didn't pay too much mind to the whole "who shared a bedroom with Al Gore" dilemma. Tommy Lee jones or whatever was that other guys name... I can't tell the diff between the two. Sort of like Chris Rock and Chris Tucker. The two sort of blend together for me.

wink
Jim Allen
Ung, I wasn't responding to you, I was responding to Destiny Rules' post; I basically ignored what you wrote. I only cut-n-pasted at length because the Daily Howler's daily entry is long and some people might not want to dig through it.

And, in an article that shockingly contains evidence of a reporter actually digging for facts, not just repeating RNC press releases, one of the characters in this story, the wonderfully named Will Turnipseed, set the record straight about a couple of things:
QUOTE
In Washington, D.C., officials with the Bush-Cheney re-election campaign were telling reporters that Turnipseed gave $500 to Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards. On Feb. 5, the Salon online magazine reported that Bush-Cheney spokesman Terry Holt, citing the Turnipseed-to-Edwards donation, questioned whether the motives behind Turnipseed's comments about Bush's service were \"pure\" or part of a \"political attack.\" That donation, as the Mobile Register was able to confirm on Thursday, was actually given to the Edwards campaign by Will Turnipseed, a 34-year-old waiter at Wynlakes Country Club in Montgomery.

But the primary failing of the former general, according to widespread reports, is that he has Alzheimer's disease -- a progressive neurological disorder that impairs memory -- and can't even remember if he was commanding the Montgomery-based 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group some 31 years ago, when Bush either did or did not report for duty. Last Monday, Turnipseed's daughter, Tracy T. Roberts of Spanish Fort, was in her car listening to Rush Limbaugh, when the conservative announcer told her and his millions of other radio listeners something she didn't know. \"When he said that General Turnipseed had reported that he had Alzheimer's, I laughed,\" said Roberts, a member of Leadership Baldwin County 2003. \"I told my husband, 'Daddy has really thrown them a bone.' I knew it had to be a joke.\" Turnipseed -- while expressing dismay over reports that he, a Bush supporter, had given money to Edwards -- admitted making what he called \"a crack\" about Alzheimer's to a reporter from Georgia.
And this is funny:
QUOTE
Friday afternoon, the Register contacted the Bush-Cheney'04 campaign and informed it of the true identity of the Edwards donor. Reed Dickens, a Southeast region spokesman, called back with a short response.

Said Dickens, \"The statement was inaccurate, and we regret it.\"
Translation: we regret getting busted and will have to think of another way to smear the people in this investigation who don't fall in line.
ung
QUOTE
Arrrrgggghhhh! It's. a. f**king. LIE. Period. He did not claim either of those things. I don't know what site Ung went to get his quote above-
You write the above statement and then you say that you were not responding to my post? Interesting.

as i said many times before, the "quote above" was not from a link supplied by me. Rather by one who agrees with you, Jim Allen.

Might I suggest that you read the posts to which you are responding?
fantomas
Once again, to the lawyers (including military lawyers on the board):

According to the Texas Code of Military Justice, it clearly states in the section Absent Without Leave - 432.131:

“A person … shall be punished as a court martial directs if the person without authority:
1) fails to go to his appointed place of duty at the time prescribed;
2) goes from that place; or
3) absents himself or remains absent from his unit, organization or place of duty at which he is required to be at the time prescribed.

If W "went from that place" and wasn't present "at the time prescribed" and "absent[ed] himself or remain[ed] absent from his unit" as the pay stubs appear to indicate, is this not a violation of the rules?

And if so, why wasn't W prosecuted? Why wasn't he court-martialed? If current Texas National Guard troops were to violate what is a clear directive here, would they not be prosecuted?
fantomas
Lest we forget, W's support of FMA accomplished TWO goals--one, to shore up the Far Right Christian base, and two, to get the discussion of his AWOL period out of the news. Surprise, surprise--it did BOTH!

But here's a pretty funny bit from Salon:

QUOTE
Web of inaccuracy
Students writing term papers or journalists doing Google-reporting have learned by now not to believe everything they read on the Internet. Just like good old hard copy reference materials, it's best to check the source. One would hope for credibility from sites administered by the U.S. government. But not when it comes to an official bio of the president found on the State Department Web site, it turns out.

The Boston Globe  points out that the State Department has, since 2001, featured an embellished account of Bush's National Guard service on the Internet. The site \"credits him with almost six years in the F-102's cockpit -- two years on active duty flying the plane and nearly four more years of part-time service as an F-102 pilot. The websites of at least five American embassies -- those in Germany, Italy, Pakistan, Vietnam, and South Korea -- use the identical language, even though Bush spent barely two years flying the airplane.\"

The Globe quotes Dan Bartlett, White House communications director, admitting the bio is wrong: \"It does not reflect the facts of his service. It will be corrected.\"

-- Geraldine Sealey
Does he know the difference between reality and truth?
ung
yes and if it does not reflect the truth about W's service.... just who in the hell wrote it?

Will anyone fess up to the intentional lie or do we need yet another investigating committee?
twin58
AP sues for access to Bush Guard records

QUOTE
Tuesday, June 22, 2004 · Last updated 2:18 p.m. PT

AP sues for access to Bush Guard records

By PETE YOST
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

WASHINGTON -- The Associated Press sued the Pentagon and the Air Force on Tuesday, seeking access to all records of George W. Bush's military service during the Vietnam War.

Filed in federal court in New York, where The AP is headquartered, the lawsuit seeks access to a copy of Bush's microfilmed personnel file from the Texas State Library and Archives Commission in Austin.
....

There are questions as to whether the file provided to the news media earlier this year is complete, says the lawsuit, adding that these questions could possibly be answered by reviewing a copy of the microfilm of Bush's personnel file in the Texas archives.

The Air National Guard of the United States, a federal entity, has control of the microfilm, which should be disclosed in its entirety under the Freedom of Information Act, the lawsuit says.

The White House has yet to respond to a request by the AP in April asking the president to sign a written waiver of his right to keep records of his military service confidential.
....

In the absence of any privacy objection by the president and in light of the importance of the file's release in advance of the November election, says the lawsuit, AP seeks a court order to compel the release of records \"that are being unlawfully withheld from the public.\"
....

Under Texas law, a copy of military personnel files of those serving in the Texas Air National Guard must be retained on microfilm at the Texas archives.

The lawsuit says that no one has looked at any of the Texas Air National Guard records maintained at the state archives since 1996.

Responding to AP's request, the Texas Air National Guard concluded that Bush's file was a federal record under control of the U.S. Air National Guard.

When the government did not produce the documents, AP appealed to the Pentagon, saying that by law, the microfilm copy should have been produced within 20 days. The Pentagon said it could not respond within the legally required period.
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