And the bad news continues to roll in....

Nice! The first ramification of what's went on with the prisoners. Its going to get really uglier over there. :mad:

I know someone who knew Nick Berg fairly well. He's been in trouble in Iraq before, and at some point, his parents actually thought he was being held by U.S. forces. [Edited to take out line about if he was being held by the U.S., it would have been for his own good. Now I read that his dad says he would have left Iraq had he not been held.]

He wasn't your standard "contractor." I think he's about 26, and, frankly, he had no business being in Iraq. He must have been such an easy target. His parents have gone through hell over his being there for a long time now, and now this.

[ May 11, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: TomFord ]

I am totally sickened over this and feel badly for the Berg family and all other families who are having loved ones killed and murdered because of this war.

One of the captors is quoted as saying, "For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage for some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused," says a hooded man standing behind the American.

"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins, slaughtered in this way."
CNN Story

Was the NYT's reporter also retrobution for the prison? They were just getting a little head start?

This should do nothing but serve purpose of how terrible and misguided these idiots are...

[ May 11, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]

White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, traveling with President Bush in Arkansas, said, "It shows the true nature of the enemies of freedom. They have no regard for the lives of innocent men, women and children. We will pursue those who are responsible and bring them to justice."

Hummm...I wonder what torturing prisoners and murder in a foreign prison says about some of the liberators?
CBS News

Danny Pearl was not killed In Iraq, you moron. He was kidnapped in Pakistan. Geez, you really are pitiful.

The captors are supposedly affiliated with al-Queda. Why are they so interested in having some of the Abu Grahib detainees released? Maybe because all of the detainees weren't innocent civilians. I'm not excusing the abuse, but I think this may provide a link between the terrorists and Iraq. I think regardless of the prison abuse, Berg would have been killed any way, it just wouldn't have been a beheading on videotape.

Let's see here boobie...

They kidnap the NTY's reporter and cut his head off...

They kidnap this guy and cut his head off.. Yep, 2 different things. This one was totally justified and off the map of what they have been doing.

All of this in the name of Allah, great guy that allah.

Daniel Pearl wrote for the Wall Street Journal, not the NYT.

Dude, don't go there. Think of all the things done in the name of the Christian God. The Inquisition, the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, are just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Again, Phillyfan, who are "they"? The people who kidnapped and murdered Daniel Pearl are undoubtedly not the same people who are guilty of this crime, and neither group likely represents the typical Iraqi people.

I am disgusted by this act, and by its political nature - this is a stunt by anti-American Islamicists to spread more hatred of the United States. It is to be expected, given recent events, but that only makes it sadder and more grotesque.

And Stinger, certainly there are Al Queda in Iraq now, we knew that would happen after the fall of Saddam's government. That does not mean they were in Iraq prior to our invasion, or that Saddam was involved in any anti-American terrorism (all evidence points to the contrary). They wanted detainees from the prison, I would guess, because that is the easiest way to pretend to care about the Iraqi people while using them for political aims.

.....Abortion clinic bombings.....Tammy Faye (just some humor for your day)......Waco......

Just more of Little Filly's bigoted rhetoric...why would we ever expect anything but ignorance from you, Little Filly? Why? Typical.

blah blah blah racists... blah blah blah...

tell me, when will ole al-jazeer stand up and say this is bad.. about the time you libs stop calling people racists.

First: Philly, do you even watch Al-Jazeera? Do you read the Jordan Times? Do you know anything about the Middle East that isn't filtered through CNN/Faux/your own bigoted thoughts and impressions?

Second: This is sickening. The killing has gone far beyond "out of hand," and the tired rhetoric flowing from the White House calling them "the enemies of freedom" (what does that mean, anyway? Wouldn't it make more sense to say that those who tortured Iraqi prisoners are enemies of freedom?) does little to ameliorate the boiling situation. Sadly, it will likely make things much, much worse.

My heart goes out to the Berg family.

Speaking of Al Jazeera, the Faces From Iraq slide show under Photo Gallery on this page is very good. No beheading or sensationalizing, just well-done and touching photos or both sides in this conflict.

You know what? I find little to distinguish the banality that you both subject us to. For heaven's sake, give it a rest or take it offline. Someone was executed - beheaded! - and it was videotaped so it could essentially be used as a marketing tool. Our ability to speak out from atop the moral high ground has been forever compromised because Americans - our neighbors, friends and siblings - have perpetrated terrible acts on prisoners in violation of every tenet of international law that we purport to hold so dear. What has happened to our soul as a nation, to our devotion to justice? I felt very strongly that the Iraq war was a righteous war, but I'm sickened by what I've seen over the past few days. I'm ashamed by what some American soldiers and civilians have done, I'm nauseated by the videotape of an American being beheaded, I'm completely sick over the anguish that Berg's family must feel, and the shame the Iraqi prisoners on those tapes must feel, I'm disheartened that our Defense Secretary knew months ago and remained quiet, and that he is now lauded for an outstanding performance, and I'm angry that in the face of such serious, emotional and demoralizing events you two are able to do nothing more than lob your usual idiotic verbal spitballs at each other. In the name of humanity, please give it a rest for at least a respectful interval. Please.

I am just as disgusted by this awful event as I have been by the horrible pictures of abused Iraqi prisoners we have seen in the past week.
The situation in Iraq is spiraling downward more and more every day.

As shocking as these events are, and they are only going to get worse, they should have been expected to some extent, especially if you took the time to educate yourself about the possible ramifications before the war ever started.

And, while some people sit by and let it go without notice, anyone who spouts hatred, bigotry, and racism on this board will be pointed out for his actions. Deal with it.

First of all, PhillyFan, a true American patriot of the highest degree, probably killed more brain cells at last weekend's beer bash than you've ever had in your pathetic little hate-filled head in your entire life.

Do you really think the way you do or are just trying to get a rise out of people? If that's your plan, it worked. You got one out of me.
You wanna know who's spouting bigotry and hatred. Look in the mirror, bub.

I'm absolutely sick and disgusted at you lefty-types who operate under this bizarre premise that all things bad in this world somehow can only be related back to the United States and, usually, a Republican president. What a narrow and, yes, bigoted world view you must have. Of course, al-Qaeda beheading Daniel Pearl and now Nick Berg, on video, somehow must be related to the evils of AmeriKKKa, in your sick little twisted world. Yup, al-Qaeda was delivering meals-on-wheels to elderly shut-ins until we for some bizarre reason tried to enforce 17 U.N. resolutions in Iraq.

I'm going to stop now before I start getting personal, since you seem to reserve for yourself the right of personal attack (on people who know far more about sports and politics than you ever will). So I will just conclude by saying: give it a rest. People are getting sick of your little hate-spewing on an otherwise civil discussion board. Give it a rest. Or, as you so eloquently say, "deal with it."

[ May 11, 2004, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]

I have to agree with CITT, bobby90210 just needs to find other things to do, get off the board a lttle bit, come out from under the shades and live a little. Make some friends and learn how to express yourself without offending everyone. Stop picking fights.

Munson Man: that was one of the finest posts I've ever seen on this board. Thank you.

Last week we saw the Muslim world outraged when they saw the pictures of Iraqi prisoners. However can anyone truly expect them to be similarly outraged over the beheading of an American prisoner. They wont be. They hate us period, they hated us before the pictures and they hate us after them. When the liberals start to learn that these people are truly evil it will probably be too late. Of course the liberals want to use diplomacy to talk to people who cannot be reasoned with.

We live in a total different world now. It will be messy and it wont look good but thats the way it will be. They started it with 9/11 forever making our world look less than perfect. I think we need to go back in time to see what worked in previous wars. The Japanese attacked us in Pearl Harbor and we responded in kind by dropping the A bomb. Seriously it is something that needs to be brought up now.

Prior to March 2003, there was no terrorism emanating from Iraq. Today it one of the world's principal sources of terrorism, SUBSEQUENT TO & BECAUSE OF Shrub's tawdry little adventure. It does appear that Qaeda has morphed into a decentralized, hydra-like creation that can carry out attacks completely independently of OBL. This latest event is sickening, but it serves only to confirm that we are mired in a savage war, in which both sides are committing atrocities.

very sad story and im scared to say its not going to stop anytime soon. I feel for the family. This brings back a lot of unpleasant memories of Daniel Pearl.
I think its very possible they would have killed him regardless of the prison photos. This doesnt excuse the mistreatment of the prisoners at all, but I really do think they would have killed him either way.

My heart goes out to the family and friends.

I have never thought for one instance that US troops should have been deployed to Iraq. I've always felt that this was a simple power play, based on various corporate interests, executed by minions of corporate influence.

The US doesn't belong in Iraq, it's not in our best interests, it's not worth the looting of the public treasury.

BUT.

What I saw today on the internet was an atrocity. It was as organized and as evil as the Holocaust. I despise Sean Hannity but he was dead on: "What the US soldiers did was mistreatment. What we saw today was an atrocity."
There's a fundamental difference. And the enemies of the US in the mideast don't respect that difference. They could care less.

There is no moral equivalency.

I think we are thru the looking glass. There is no moral high ground to be had in Iraq (or the mideast).

Get over your resentments of George Bush, Ariel Sharon, Al Qaeda, Yassir Arafat.

I'm hoping there will come a time when Americans will stop thinking that they are the saviors of the world. And I'm really hoping that Americans will also refuse to be doormats for the latest extreme political/religious extremist, domestic or international.

And todays atrocity was perpetrated by OBL's boys apparantly, not Iraquis. Refresh my memory...What did Iraq have to do with the terrorist attacks again? Thank you Shrub. Can this get any worse? Forget I asked: I really don't want to know.

On tonight's NewsNight with Aaron Brown on CNN, it was reported that Nick Berg talked with his mom everyday after he returned to Iraq in March (for the second time) and after a short timme, he had decided to come back to the U.S. In late March before he could leave on a plane, he was apprehended by Iraqi police and supposedly turned over to American authorities. During the time he was held by the Americans, his family sued Donald Rumsfeld for the release of Nick. He was held until released on April 6; at that time, he called and told his mom he would leave Iraq as soon as he could; however, he disappeared around April 9 and his family was notified of his death this past Monday.

To be fair to the Arab side, if you think everyone's crowding around the computer with glee to see this video, it's not happening. Remember when there was a string of kidnappings? Why did those 3 Japanese and others get released? Because Arab people went to talk with them and convinced them to let them go. Americans also do not for the most part sympathize with Iraqi deaths. There have been thousands of civilian lives taken, do you ever hear about that from Americans/American news? Do you ever hear of any American feelings sorry and expressing that to the Arab world or whoever? No.

As for the prisoner abuse situation, obviously there is a contradiction when it comes to many Arab countries treatment of prisoners and American treatment of prisoners. Many Arab countries (and not just Arab either) do much worse than what the American soldiers did to the Iraqi prisoners. However, you have to keep in mind that many viewed this war/invasion as an occupancy of an Arab country by the United States. That the U.S. was using the country, etc. But when the Iraqis and other Arabs see these pictures of U.S. soldiers absolutely humliating Iraqi prisoners, do you think that looks like caring and doing what's best or occupation and not caring? I mean, it's not like they are using these tactics for interrogating and such (or at least not directly....some are saying they were used in an indirect way). These are Americans putting leashes on Iraqis and acting like they are dogs, wrapping them in celephane packed with ice, making them walk around naked and do grotesque poses, apparently letting a dog bite them, etc. It looked like these American troops were using them as toys, in a very sick way. Here they hear the U.S. government talking about how they are there to help and heal Iraq and such....and then they see these pictures.

As for Nick Berg, the story on him from what I've seen is very saddening. He didn't work for a contractor, but went over there just to help out. A person that young and who would do so much to help out, that's very admirable. I can't even begin to imagine how his family and friends feel, it's just absolutely sickening.

I don't care to see the video of Berg, I understand it is far worse than a simple beheading. It was slow and torturous.

The last report I saw was that his familly is putting the blame on the US Government, saying that had they not detained him for whatever reason, he would have been home.

This is such a freeking mess our dumbass President has gotten us into. There wasn't any Al-Qeda in Iraq before, but now we have made it the center of terrorism.

I am just sick over this whole Iraq mess!

Thanks to Google's news service, I linked to stills from the video, and against my better judgment, viewed them.

Revulsion, horror, sadness kept my eyes riveted on the stills.

Felt guilty looking at such images, but I couldn't bring myself to stop going further and eye all ten stills.

Reminded me of Pasolini's truly scary "Salo," his last film, which was a condemnation of fascism, showing four powerful lords who kidnap, torture, maim, then kill 16 teenagers at the end of WWII in Italy.

The beheading is what war and terrorism look like.

My prayers go out to Berg and his grieving family.

Here's the link.

Warning: the photos are extremely graphic.

let's clear up some issues relating to this.

Zarqawi (Bin Laden's lieutenant) has claimed responsibility for this. and Al-qaeda was also responsible for Daniel Pearl's throat slashing.

Al-jazeera probably will not show the beheading. Previously they refused to show the killing of an italian man saying it was too offensive.

The motherf**kers who did this have nothing to do with the Abu Ghraib prison abuses. They merely used that as a convenient excuse to kill an american in this manner.
They think that muslims will support them in light of last week's photos. But they will only wind up disgusting their own people.
How can muslims now complain about sodomy and beatings when the other side is slicing off heads?

if we just look at this killing by itself... it's not time to point fingers at the Cheney White House. The White House has plenty to answer for.... the bad intelligence, the false claims etc. But this should not be blamed on the WH. This is just a tragedy of war where the other side has no regard for life or their own professed religious beliefs.

This guy wasn't even a soldier. He went to various 3rd world countries to help the unfortunate. He really was an innocent. There was no reason (in any sense) for his killing except that he's american. and that is not reason enough.

Hunt them down and kill them.

I don't turn the other cheek. I'm not a christian. I want an eye for an eye.

[ May 11, 2004, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: ung ]

Exactly! Bobby is one of the most intolerant and spiteful people on this board, spending most of his time personally attacking those who post here instead of trying to attack one's point or contention. It's about time someone finally called him on this!

I do agree with the people posting on saying this has nothing to do with the prison tragedy.

They have shown before they have no respect for human life at all. This is Al Qeda and has nothing to do with the prison at all.

They made the poor guy state his name and his relatives names just as they did Daniel Pearl.

This is just disgusting and I'm very sad tonight and will do a mourners kaddish. God Bless his family and friends and may the murderers rot in hell and I wish them a most violent death

There is a distinct difference between the cultures of the middle East and America.

In the US, we have a media that is dedicated to questioning all authority ... political, religious, military.

In the middle east, no such equation.

There is no evident socio/political interrogation of any Arab/Muslim leadership by the media or anyone else. In many instances, this is because the leaders of such groups will not make themselves available to anyone. Pure and simple, they are cowards. They are unable and unwilling to stand in the light of day for what they believe in. From our point of view, they are unaccountable and not deserving of our respect.

If I were the leader of the free world, I would quickly get my troops out of the places they don't rightfully belong.

Yet, I would make it abundantly clear to the Arab/Muslim nations that if any agression on their part exceeds the scope of legitimate interest, then Big Poppa USA would be ready to drop the big hammer and put them in their appropriate place.

You mention the Kaddish: was Berg Jewish? I've seen no news reports that mention this.

The murder of Berg and the broadcast of it on the Al Qaeda website are ABOMINATIONS, a word that unfortunately is often used against homosexuals. This act is nothing less--an atrocity. I can only condemn the monstrous people who did this, the cowards who hid their faces and took glee in torturing this poor man. They are using the gruesome Abu Ghraib acts--and I don't just mean the simulated sex acts and humiliations, but the videotaped rapes of boys, the rapes of the women, the dog attacks, the beating to death of innocent Iraqis--as a PRETEXT, a rationale. But let's also not forget that Zarqawi and his ilk are also believed to be behind the horrible bombings that killed 181 Shia worshipers during their holy days, and so forth. People like Zarqawi don't give a damn about Islam, and they don't give a damn about the Iraqis--they want to impose their regime of hatred on the world, and are using this Iraq War, ill-founded and misguided as it was, as a pretext.

I really wish, in addition to getting worked up about Bush, this war, Democrats, etc., that we as Americans would also get FED UP with the situation in Saudi Arabia. Does no one--NO ONE else???--on this board give a damn that an American was mutilated and dragged through the streets of Yanbu there just two weeks ago? I have asked this question repeatedly but no one responds. 15 of the 19 9/11 hijacker-murderers came from Saudi Arabia. In its schools textbooks denounce Christians, Jews--AMERICANS! Yet we allow its ambassador to see war plans before our Congress, we allow members of bin Laden's family to fly out after the worst domestic tragedy ever, we still are devoting less money to clamp down on its money transfers than on Cuba's. Isn't SOMETHING WRONG HERE, people?

Anyways, getting back to Berg, my heart goes out to his family. God rest his soul. I do pray for the other missing contractors, and for all the soldiers over there, because obviously now a new gambit has been raised, and with the Abu Ghraib horrors as a pretext, these Al Qaeda monsters, who weren't in Iraq before, will have even more of the Muslim world on their side.

[ May 13, 2004, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

What on earth are you talking about? The "cultures" of the Middle East are pretty diverse. Are you claiming that Israel is on par with Iran? Or that Jordan or Lebanon, a democracy, is the same as Syria?

There are numerous media outlets in the U.S. that DO NOT question authority. When you have news organizations that parrot whatever a given party puts out, repeats its spin as the truth, and fails to ask basic questions, then you cannot in any way claim that that news organization challenges authority.

Personally, I could care less whether I respect the screwed up royal family of Saudi Arabia, for example, or the Taliban. What I do care about is that they are not funding or aiding or abetting terrorists who want to slaughter innocent people, Americans or otherwise.

Personal respect comes into play at a later level; let's just get to the point of BASIC RESPECT for fellow human beings, for not blowing up nearly 3,000 people in towers or dragging body parts through the street or slitting a person's throat in an perverse, Internet spectacle. That is certainly not too much to ask, is it? Of anyone? Of any culture???

This man was killed for one reason only - he was an American. I hope Al Jazerra broadcasts this slaughter in its entirety - thus showing Arabs that not all the cruelty and inhuman activity going on in Iraq is at the hands of the hated Yankee.

These fanatics underestimate the American mind set. Just when many were starting to question the morality of our actions in Iraq due to the Prison scandal, many will now compare those activities to this execution and conclude that a population that gives aid and comfort to these kinds of murderers deserves to be tortured, humiliated and yes, killed.

I don't necessarily believe that, but today it is harder to feel a need to prosecute soldiers for "torture," while these murderers move freely in Iraq.

[ May 12, 2004, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Undercenter ]

I think this may fall under "Be careful what you pray for...". I heard a woman in the hometown of the first US soldier to be prosecuted for the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners say, without looking away from her chore to face the camera, that the Iraqi prisoners "got what they deserve". Unfortunately both sides are uncaring.

I have been saddened by the escalating sadism and brutality in Iraq. I am very sad for Nick Berg's family. I am also extremely sad--and angry--over the ways in which debate on this board has devolved into the juvenile hurling of insults.

Insulting people who are in favor of this war accomplishes nothing. Insulting people who are opposed to this war accomplishes nothing. If we cannot engage in rational, reasoned discussion (yes, it may get heated--however, there is no reason it need be disrespectful), then maybe we should stop posting altogether. The first rule of Internet BBS posting: Read, Think, Compose, Re-read, Edit, Re-read, THEN post.

For the record, I am unalterably opposed to this war. That said, I'd like to think that I'm able to at least intellectually understand the reasons why people think this war is a corrective to terrorism. Unfortunately, this war seems to be the precursor and justification for the very types of terror that GW Bush vowed to crush.

I am extremely angry that there were non-military contractors over there in the first place. The military did not have Iraq secured. When Bush went over there to proclaim the 'end of combat,' he lulled this nation into a false sense of security; that, combined with a poor (if existent) strategy for keeping the region calm after invading it, may be one of the factors that led to Nick Berg's horrific murder. Now, Bush is vowing to find those responsible and kill them. While I understand and somewhat sympathize with that assertion, it's not going to make anything better. Suppose some troops do find and kill those responsible? I think it's fair to assume that there will be revenge killings in response to our revenge killing which was a response to Nick Berg's beheading which was a response to...see? The cycle is about to become never-ending--possibly to the point where both sides will eventually have forgotten why they were fighting, killing and maiming in the first place.

It's a moral mistake to think that what happened to Berg means we should go easy on our own folk for their gruesome Abu Ghraib acts.

It's also idiotic to spout off on how Arabs are reacting to Berg's killing when you have no idea. The little info you do have is through a not-necessarily-trustworthy or representative lense. Your outrage over their supposed lack of sympathy isn't based on anything credible.

Put another way, if an American bomb lands in a school and kills a bunch of Iraqi kids, would it make sense for Iraqis to think that all Americans back home dance and cheer when they about it? Of course not. So what makes you think Arabs are happy about what happened to Berg? Just because Rush Limbaugh tells you they're happy over this doesn't make it so.

Moreover, if their reaction is muted, it doesn't mean they're savages any more than our general lack of reaction to Iraqi deaths makes us savage.

I know that lots of innocent Iraqi civilians--men, women and children--died over the past year, but I certainly didn't wail and gnash my teeth over their deaths. And I don't expect Arabs or Iraqis, especially those inured by war, to be holding candlelight services for Berg any more than I held candlelight services for innocent Iraqis who died in this war.

Fantomas, yes, he was Jewish, but no one thinks his captors knew that.

It probably won't help the case of those saying these prison situations are nothing compared to the killing of Americans when 60 Minutes is airing a tape tonight of a U.S. soldier talking about how they don't care if someone dies, it's just one less person for them to watch, when they have shot prisoners, etc.

That is such a tragedy. It is tragic when brutal acts of savagery like that occur. I am afraid that George Bush and his dirty little war has only made the world a more dangerous place.

The worst part about BOTH the prison abuse and murders such as Berg's is that the real losers are the Iraqi people. After having to put up with a dictator who was first actively supported by the West, then abandoned when he went on his rampage in Kuwait, we have screwed them over yet again with this war and occupation.

Now they have Al Queda attacking Iraqi citizens, particularly those who may try to work for the Americans, a resurgance of warlord-types that have made Afghanistan a civil nightmare, and, with the attacks on civilians, fewer people willing to come in and actually help rebuild the country.

With all this going on yesterday with Nick Berg, I would like some advice from the members here. I plan to vote for John Kerry in November but now I am really wondering if we should allow Shrub to just walk away from such a mess he has created.

If he was re-elected [sic] he would have to clean up his own mess or be removed from office for someone to take over and clean up. Could it get worse? Sure it could! We Americans only have a taste of how bad it could get with what happened on 9-11. Just imagine 100's of 9-11's!! Four more years of the Shrub Administration could put us all in the poor house or in an unmarked grave.

Is the right thing to do is vote for John Kerry and hope by some miracle he can pull us up from such a low place that our current administration has placed us? We would hope we could only go UP from here. Would a new administration be a chance to wipe the slate clean and start over with our world relationships? I really feel for John Kerry. He really has my admiration for having the huge balls to step up and try and take over such a train wreck we currently have.

What are your ideas on this?

So here we are a day after this terrible act.

Where is the outrage in the Muslim world? Where are the muslim press speaking up? Where are the Arab leaders speaking out against this?

These people are nowhere. They are as gutless as these wig-nuts who cant even show their faces on TV.

The muslim world is at a cross roads as people sit on the sidelines and dont stand up to these idiots. Iraq is going to have problems until their own people stand up and fight for what they believe. Nothing comes cheap and this fight will cause the deaths of many of them.

That is how it works. America did not break free without a lil blood loss, neither will they.

So long as the muslim world is nothing but a bunch of cowards, nothing will change. Until the arab press steps up to the plate nothing will change.

This act will do nothing but serve as a purpose to stay the course in Iraq to build a better country down the road.

Sorry to say, but the muslim world is nothing but a bunch of cowards afraid to stand up and fight. They allow this masked pinheads to represent them.

Stop buying into Al Queda's spin. The masked pinheads don't represent the Muslim world. Al Queda would want us to think they do (so they can seem more powerful than they really are). They don't represent anyone but themselves.

The more you lash out at the Muslim world at large, the more you help terrorists. It's exactly the sort of thinking that they use to get recruits: the American govt killed your kid, now go kill American civilians because they're just as responsible. Try not to think like the pinheads.

[ May 12, 2004, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: TomFord ]

[Purposely ignoring yet another Phillyfan racist anti-Arab rant]


although this is somewhat off-topic, I don't think we can allow the Bush administration another minute to screw up even worse than they have. Probably the only thing that will begin to convince Arabs that we are serious about human rights and democracy in the Middle East is to exercise our democratic perogative to get rid of an administration that is so clearly incompetent.

Granted, Al Queda will crow, as Saddam did, that they managed to unseat a President, but I believe in the long run such a move would do a lot to counter-act the sick propaganda we see in this horrific murder. If the Arab states actually see consequences to the Bush administration for screwing up Iraq, followed by immediate (and it would have to be within days of inaguaration) moves by a Kerry administration to change the tone/tactics/focus in Iraq (even if we do hand over power to Iraqis on June 30, it will be in name only. I have a feeling we will be running the country for the next few years), then some might actually think we care about the values we are supposed to espouse.