I've admired RYAN KLESKO for quite awhile now - in both meanings of the word "admired" - but his comments in the San Diego Gay & Lesbian Times were about the most common-sense, real-world assessment of gays in baseball that I've yet seen.

Gay, straight or any point in between, Klesko would make a great spokesmodel for this issue. (I'm not going to compare/contrast his position with that given by another oft-discussed only-out gay ex-ballplayer on the planet.) And the fact that he would be willing to discuss this with a San Diego gay newspaper? All the better.

I'm even more of a Klesko fan.

I concur. Kudos to Ryan Klesko for going on the record on this issue.

I think it's important to note that only two people spoke on the record for that story. One was the general manager for the team. The other was the official player spokesperson for the team. Yes what they said was very positive, but whenever a reporter is can only talk to the official talkers of an organization, there is an appearance of something being hidden. I would be much more interested in the players who would be uncomfortable. Not to vilify them, but to put a real dimension to the problem of being out in baseball. And perhaps if more players were talked to, and had positive public responses, the gay players might feel more comfortable coming out.

I gotta say, when I hit the Outsports page this morning and saw Ryan next to the headline Out at "The Q," I nearly did a spit take with my coffee. It was a dream come true!

Anyway, I absolutely agree with Charlie and canmark. And you're certainly right about opening up the discussion to include players who are uncomfortable, jqueer. But I kinda doubt that any of them would've spoken to the Gay and Lesbian Times.

There was one thing about that article that I find very annoying and very common in articles about closeted gay people: the assumption that in any group of people, 10% of them must be gay. ("There are 1200 players in MLB, so there must be 120 gay players.") It shows a complete lack of understanding of statistics.

First, any percentage figure about sexual orientation can't be relied on. (The pollsters have to define what "gay" means, and then they have to get an accurate cross-section of the population to respond truthfully to a complete stranger asking an extremely personal question. People lie to pollsters all the time, especially about personal data.)

Next, any statement about what percentage of the population is gay would apply to a random sampling of the American population. Baseball players hardly represent a random sampling. A huge chunk of gay men with athletic ability consider professional sports to be a homophobic environment and would self-select not to pursue a pro sports career.

Also, as mentioned, polls about sexual orientation tend to be of the US population. How many baseball players come from other countries? And how many other cultures define homosexuality differently than the US? Lots.

So this is a plea for a more informed use of statistics.

There. I feel better now. Thank you.

The Ryan Klesko story makes me think how much irrational fear drives the homophobia in major sports. Billy Bean fears not only for himself but anyone else who might come out in sports.

Most of these guys, who would probably chase Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, are afraid to shower with a gay teammate.

Things like this recent witchhunt in India haven't happened in this country, at least not as blatantly, for a century. Yet a police officer in Tulia, Texas recently summarily arrested, and juries convicted, dozens of blacks, and whites associating with blacks, with no evidence other than his questionable observations. (See Kafka in Tulia in the NYTimes 29Jul2002)

Irrational fear - whether it's Billy Bean's, pro sports' or general population's - can be deadly. That's no reason not to face it, eventually everyone has to.

[I initially posted this in the Billy Bean thread but I thought it was more appropriate here, I'll add that I think that the number of gays in sports is as likely to be underestimated as the reverse, until we live in a world where revelation of a persons sexuality really is met with a "yawn", my guess is that it's higher]

[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:
(See Kafka in Tulia in the NYTimes 29Jul2002)

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http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/29/opinion/29HERB.html

And I agreed with 43% of what Lots-of-us said.

[quote] And I agreed with 43% of what Lots-of-us said.

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LOL

Lots-of-us, figures never lie, but liars always figure. The statistics game is too easy to manipulate. For instance, somewhere between 1 and 2 percent of the US population is Jewish. That should mean no less than 12 Jewish ball players at any given time. I haven't heard of one since Hank Greenberg (or did Sandy Kaufax's career end later?) Now, we get into homosexuality. How many potential big leaguers are disauded early in their careers because they realize that they will have to choose between the game and their sexuality? So a certain portion of the gay population, with numbers that are already arguable, self selects out of the process. Some I'm sure have that selection made for them in high school and college. But what percentage of Major League baseball would it take to have one homosexual per team? At 1200 players, 40 to a team, 3.33% of the players have to be gay. I do not find that so far fetched. I would go so far as to expect that 5% of major league athletes are gay. That would mean 60 major league baseball players are gay. The point is not a specific number, but that there is a statistically valid number gay athletes.

Oh, I have no doubt that there are several gay ballplayers. My point is just that one shouldn't use a spurious number (10% according to whom?) as a basis for that assertion.

One of my favorite quotes: A statistician will put his head in an oven, his feet in a bucket of ice and say "Overall I feel fine."

Jason Marquis and Shawn Green are among the current Jewish players, as well as Gabe Kapler. But I'm off topic....

Three is only a third of 12.

[quote]Originally posted by jqueer:
Three is only a third of 12.

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Add Mike Lieberthal. Now it's four.

[quote]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:


Add Mike Lieberthal. Now it's four.

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Which actually makes it a third rather than a quarter which I didn't notice till now because my math skills are so very weak.

Hmmmmm.....so what percentage of baseball mplayers are Jewish AND gay?

[quote]Originally posted by MSUBulldog:
Jason Marquis and Shawn Green are among the current Jewish players, as well as Gabe Kapler. But I'm off topic....

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When Shawn Green was a Blue Jay I never knew he was gay and never heard of him involved with any Jewish organization in Toronto (despite a fairly sizable Jewish population). But when he was traded to the Dodgers for Raul Mondesi, the papers reported that L.A. was happy to get a Jewish player so as to appeal to the Jewish population in L.A. Does anyone in L.A. know if Green's "Jewishness" is being promoted?

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: canmark ]

[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:
Most of these guys, who would probably chase Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, are afraid to shower with a gay teammate.

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This is an excellent point sportinlife. It's funny how the "shower issue" always comes up when straight guys talk about having gay teammates. What are they so afraid of?

We could get really anal and start talking about mixed-race players. Does Jeter count as black or white or both. Suppose a player is black, jewish and bisexual. Would he count as all three...the possibilities are endless.

Add Brad Ausmus to the Jewish & a ballplayer list. As to Shawn Green, he has been profiled in Los Angeles' "Jewish Journal" & has spoken at the Brandeis-Bardin Institute, an educational/social organization geared towards Jewish singles and young families. A number of Hebrew teachers I know have a poster of Green up in their classrooms.


~Adam

[quote]Originally posted by Munson Man:
Hmmmmm.....so what percentage of baseball mplayers are Jewish AND gay?

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It's been alleged about Mike Lieberthal a time or two...only online types, though--never a substantial rumor, let alone proof.

It's funny how someone curious about Jewish baseball players would never know what's buried within this Klesko/gay shower thread!

Maybe it's just me, but I think the active Jewish players listed above constitute one damn good-looking sample of MLB!

Some other possibilities (I think we're approaching the statistical extrapolation point): Toronto shortstop Dave Berg and Houston 3B Geoff Blum.

This is starting to remind me of Adam Sandler's hysterical "Hanukkah Song" ("Goldie Hawn's half-Jewish, Paul Newman's too; put them together, what a fine-looking Jew . . .").

Since the subject has come up, there apparently is someone keeping track of Jewish baseball players and other Jews in sports at http://www.jewishsports.com/