Here's a thought:
What if we had a President who regularly and actively urged Americans, especially at a time of war in the Middle East, to buy smaller cars and trucks, while also actively exhorting the auto industry to improve fuel economy standards, since oil is a finite commodity, and given the growth in the Chinese and Indian economies, the US can no longer ever again assume it'll get the lion's share of fuel? He could also have highlighted the hybrid auto options a few years ago, and stress to Detroit that just as the US government was able to create hundreds of thousands of tanks and airplanes in the space of a year in 1941-42 to arm the country to fight in two theaters, the government and auto industry could work together on an intensive project to convert as many hybrids as possible to the high efficiency models (250mpg +) being touted this week.
What if the President, as both a symbolic and proactive measure, inaugurated a "Manhattan Project" for developing alternative fuel sources and conservation, not just for autos, but for all the other energy needs the US has, bringing the best, smartest scientists and engineers to the White House for a televised discussion about how the US might proceed in terms of immediate and longterm alternative energy options?
What if the President seriously pushed the oil industry to build more refineries, which oil companies and refiners could easily afford to do right now, given how flush with cash they are? That would also help over at least a half-year period to lower the price of gas, which is especially hurting middle class and poor Americans.
Less US dependency, especially led by the White House pushing for as many immediate measures as possible, would push oil--and eventually gas--prices down. It would also provide less money for the worst elements in Saudi Arabia to continue funding Wahhabism there and elsewhere. It would hamper Iran's ability to act as it pleases, also hamstring Venezuela's problematic president, and help the US's balance of payments with Canada.
Full Version: Price of Oil
Fan. Exactly. What Shrub needs to do is called lead by example! Pretty simple really.
QUOTE
fantomas:
What if we had a President who regularly and actively urged Americans, especially at a time of war in the Middle East, to buy smaller cars and trucks
HAHAHAHAHAHAWhat if we had a President who regularly and actively urged Americans, especially at a time of war in the Middle East, to buy smaller cars and trucks
How long would that be allowed by GM, Ford, and the UAW?????
That's what I thought.
Phillyfanatic,
For shame! You aren't suggesting that our president is controlled by big business interests. Are you? Cuz that would be unpatriotic.
For shame! You aren't suggesting that our president is controlled by big business interests. Are you? Cuz that would be unpatriotic.
By neither side there Mr CNN.
Here's an idea....WHY DON'T WE ALL BUY SMALL CARS WITHOUT BEING TOLD TO DO SO.... EWWWWWWW.. Quite the concept of doing things yourself without the Gov't tellin ya to!
Just might make GM, Ford, etc etc etc change their business structure!
The job losses might make the bobster mad though.
Here's an idea....WHY DON'T WE ALL BUY SMALL CARS WITHOUT BEING TOLD TO DO SO.... EWWWWWWW.. Quite the concept of doing things yourself without the Gov't tellin ya to!
Just might make GM, Ford, etc etc etc change their business structure!
The job losses might make the bobster mad though.
Great idea. I already own/drive one, what do you drive/own PF?
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
By neither side there Mr CNN.
Here's an idea....WHY DON'T WE ALL BUY SMALL CARS WITHOUT BEING TOLD TO DO SO....
We are, they are called Toyota's. By neither side there Mr CNN.
Here's an idea....WHY DON'T WE ALL BUY SMALL CARS WITHOUT BEING TOLD TO DO SO....
Like the three new Prius Hybrids my company just ordered from them because no US corporate manufacturer has anything that is near competitive (60/51/55 mpg - $21k).
At 20k miles a year, and $2.50 a gal for gas, I estimate we will save approx $833 a year ($4100 over 5 years) per car in gas costs - canceling out the premium we paid for the vehicles over some cheap GM vehicle of roughly the same size and capability. So we pay now, help the environment, get a better quality vehicle, and if the cost of gas still goes up - we win. No brainer.
Somebody sure needs to give the 'Big Three' a kick in the ass!
Toyota recently announced that they were going to start Hybrid Camry production in Kentucky. Hmmm - number one selling car, number two selling vehicle (they broke the light truck ceiling this year), and now a hybrid. That makes 7 hybrid vehicles to - oh wait, nobody else has ANY. Where are Ford, GM, and D-Chrysler?
R
[ August 16, 2005, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
By neither side there Mr CNN.
Here's an idea....WHY DON'T WE ALL BUY SMALL CARS WITHOUT BEING TOLD TO DO SO.... EWWWWWWW.. Quite the concept of doing things yourself without the Gov't tellin ya to!
Just might make GM, Ford, etc etc etc change their business structure!
The job losses might make the bobster mad though.
Well well well.. Mr.FauxNews..... You think that Ford and GM will change their corporate structure? By neither side there Mr CNN.
Here's an idea....WHY DON'T WE ALL BUY SMALL CARS WITHOUT BEING TOLD TO DO SO.... EWWWWWWW.. Quite the concept of doing things yourself without the Gov't tellin ya to!
Just might make GM, Ford, etc etc etc change their business structure!
The job losses might make the bobster mad though.
You really have no idea what happens in Detroit. Do you?
AH Mr Cnn,
Detroit has the corner of the market NOT to make any changes at all, except to offer more incentives for folks to buy their cars.
No matter which way you slice, from the corp side, from the big labor side....
On a serious note, Detroit and that area of michigan is just a pit. Gross, nasty, and just plain yucky. The sooner it dies off the better..
Detroit has the corner of the market NOT to make any changes at all, except to offer more incentives for folks to buy their cars.
No matter which way you slice, from the corp side, from the big labor side....
On a serious note, Detroit and that area of michigan is just a pit. Gross, nasty, and just plain yucky. The sooner it dies off the better..
Really? Well how perfectly unpatriotic of you.
It's nice to know that you're finally showing your true plumas because you do, as they say in spanish, have much plumas.
I should have known from all your past comments that you didn't care for america at all and really aren't a patriot in the least. People like you should just go and move down to wherever you wanna crawl to.
It's nice to know that you're finally showing your true plumas because you do, as they say in spanish, have much plumas.
I should have known from all your past comments that you didn't care for america at all and really aren't a patriot in the least. People like you should just go and move down to wherever you wanna crawl to.
There is a great saying Mr CNN..
If it wasnt for Detroit, St Louis would be the armpit of the midwest.
Anyway, who cares about the GM, they've made crappy cars for years and years.
Let them and ford die then all the "great" jobs will go to KY, TN, SC. They might get paid a fair wage for screwing in the bolts, rather than the 25 an hour they demand right now.
Heck the car prices might go down too!!!!
If it wasnt for Detroit, St Louis would be the armpit of the midwest.
Anyway, who cares about the GM, they've made crappy cars for years and years.
Let them and ford die then all the "great" jobs will go to KY, TN, SC. They might get paid a fair wage for screwing in the bolts, rather than the 25 an hour they demand right now.
Heck the car prices might go down too!!!!
The answer is so simple, if Dumbya would just take a few minutes from his 5 week vacation at Camp Chickenhawk to pick up the phone, "jawbone OPEC" and get them to "open the spigot."
QUOTE
JC:
I don't know where you get that from. The economic growth in the 2nd quarter according to the treasury was 3.4%.
Most normal folks don't look at only one quarter. Look at multiple quarters, particularly consecutive ones.
I don't know where you get that from. The economic growth in the 2nd quarter according to the treasury was 3.4%.
QUOTE
Erik G:
Actually MIB, Kool-Aid has to be a childish thing of yours. It is not summer unless your oil prices go up and you have a purple tongue. I guess that would make rimming more colorful
Where you put that popsickle is up to you.
Ya know, those city buses will run just fine on bio-diesel. As will interstate trucking and shippers transports. Grain alcohol will power your cars' ICE with some tweeks. Both fuels are sustainable and can be completely manufactured at home in the U.S. But real economic grow and prosperity for everyone has never been the goal of America. It has always been using capitalism as a religion to subjugate the masses. Farmers are not to have econimc clout and power over the feeble rich's food supply. ADM is the supermarket to the world while folks at home go hungry. Call me bitter. But the GMO's leave a bad taste in my mouth. Herbicides and pesticides in my food and water have made me irritable
Please, use English once in a while. It might help with your usual gibberish. :confused:
Actually MIB, Kool-Aid has to be a childish thing of yours. It is not summer unless your oil prices go up and you have a purple tongue. I guess that would make rimming more colorful
Where you put that popsickle is up to you.Ya know, those city buses will run just fine on bio-diesel. As will interstate trucking and shippers transports. Grain alcohol will power your cars' ICE with some tweeks. Both fuels are sustainable and can be completely manufactured at home in the U.S. But real economic grow and prosperity for everyone has never been the goal of America. It has always been using capitalism as a religion to subjugate the masses. Farmers are not to have econimc clout and power over the feeble rich's food supply. ADM is the supermarket to the world while folks at home go hungry. Call me bitter. But the GMO's leave a bad taste in my mouth. Herbicides and pesticides in my food and water have made me irritable
QUOTE
twin58:
Study Cites Inefficiency Of Alternative Fuels
Canadian Statistical Assessment Service: Ethanol Isn’t Worth the Energy
And to think ITJock was applauding this gibberish of Erik's. Well, takes one to know one I guess. QUOTE
Erik G
... city buses will run just fine on bio-diesel. ... Grain alcohol will power your cars' ICE with some tweeks. Both fuels are sustainable and can be completely manufactured at home in the U.S.
Not so fast.... city buses will run just fine on bio-diesel. ... Grain alcohol will power your cars' ICE with some tweeks. Both fuels are sustainable and can be completely manufactured at home in the U.S.
Study Cites Inefficiency Of Alternative Fuels
QUOTE
NATION IN BRIEF
Monday, July 18, 2005; Page A06
Study Cites Inefficiency Of Alternative Fuels
ALBANY, N.Y. -- Farmers, businesses and state officials are investing millions of dollars in ethanol and biofuel plants as renewable energy sources, but a new study says the alternative fuels burn more energy than they produce.
....
... [R]esearchers at Cornell University and the University of California at Berkeley say it takes 29 percent more fossil energy to turn corn into ethanol than the amount of fuel the process produces. For switch grass, a warm-weather perennial grass found in the Great Plains and eastern North America, it takes 45 percent more energy, and for wood, 57 percent. It takes 27 percent more energy to turn soybeans into biodiesel fuel, and more than double the energy produced is needed to do the same to sunflower plants, the study found.
....
Same thing, but with footnotes:Monday, July 18, 2005; Page A06
Study Cites Inefficiency Of Alternative Fuels
ALBANY, N.Y. -- Farmers, businesses and state officials are investing millions of dollars in ethanol and biofuel plants as renewable energy sources, but a new study says the alternative fuels burn more energy than they produce.
....
... [R]esearchers at Cornell University and the University of California at Berkeley say it takes 29 percent more fossil energy to turn corn into ethanol than the amount of fuel the process produces. For switch grass, a warm-weather perennial grass found in the Great Plains and eastern North America, it takes 45 percent more energy, and for wood, 57 percent. It takes 27 percent more energy to turn soybeans into biodiesel fuel, and more than double the energy produced is needed to do the same to sunflower plants, the study found.
....
Canadian Statistical Assessment Service: Ethanol Isn’t Worth the Energy
QUOTE
millerbeach:
MIB, your obsession with Kool-Aid concerns me. To set the record straight, I haven't had Kool-Aid in at least 30 years. I also recall how the price of gasoline spiked late in the Clinton administration, and I clearly remember how every neo-con on the planet was blaming Clinton. I guess it's an occupational hazard. Just where is all the oil in Iraq? Can't blame Clinton for that one, can you? Oh wait, I forgot about the national debt...what was it when Clinton was in office? Oh, if memory serves me, we had a SURPLUS! Gosh, that's a term I haven't heard in several years! Yup, things are just rosy with the shrub in office.
Don't lump me into that basket of right-wing nutjobs who were assessed with their Clinton hatred--hatred far less intense than that directed at Bush, but I digress.MIB, your obsession with Kool-Aid concerns me. To set the record straight, I haven't had Kool-Aid in at least 30 years. I also recall how the price of gasoline spiked late in the Clinton administration, and I clearly remember how every neo-con on the planet was blaming Clinton. I guess it's an occupational hazard. Just where is all the oil in Iraq? Can't blame Clinton for that one, can you? Oh wait, I forgot about the national debt...what was it when Clinton was in office? Oh, if memory serves me, we had a SURPLUS! Gosh, that's a term I haven't heard in several years! Yup, things are just rosy with the shrub in office.
I never blamed Clinton for the gas prices, hell I even voted for the man once. Unlike those blind fools around here who toe the leftist line and blame all the world's troubles on Bush, I refused to be one of these idiots who was too stupid to realize just what causes high oil/gas prices. The global economy is so difficult for you guys to understand.
Neither Clinton nor Bush is going to have any impact upon oil prices. It doesn't matter if the White House occupant is a Democrat or Republican, for their effect on oil prices is nonexistent.
There is nothing we can do about the overwhelming increase in world demand for oil, short of invading China and India and shutting down their economy. There is nothing we can do about refinery fires or tropical systems that disrupt refinery operations in the Gulf.
What we CAN do, among other things, is:
- Get rid of all these useless special blends of gasoline--California alone has over 15 or more blends!
- Lower damn gas taxes
- Build more refineries (should have done this years ago, since it takes many years to build just one)
- Continue oil exploration
- Continue to explore new forms of energy (and wind farms won't do the trick), but this doesn't solve the problem of cars needing gasoline right now
Note that I did not state we should convince Americans to conserve energy or drive smaller cars. Sure, those are great ideas from perhaps a personal point of view, but they're naive ones for purposes of lowering the price of oil.
Pointing your finger and chastizing Americans who drive bigger cars ain't gonna lower the price of oil. It hasn't yet and won't in the future.
From the NY Times:
"Economy Shows Signs of Strain From Oil Prices
By JAD MOUAWAD and DAVID LEONHARDT
Published: August 17, 2005
Inflation surged last month, the government reported yesterday, as the long rise in energy prices finally seemed to be pinching the American economy. After absorbing the burden of oil at $40 a barrel, then at $50 and beyond, consumers have started to react as prices have risen above $60 in recent weeks.
Wal-Mart blamed high oil prices yesterday as it reported that in the recent quarter its profits rose at their slowest rate in four years. The chief executive, H. Lee Scott Jr., told investors that expensive oil was worrying him because it seemed to be erasing recent income gains for many customers.
Airlines have already felt the sting of increasing jet fuel costs. Last week, Delta, United and Continental raised domestic fares in their latest attempt to stem losses; Delta is struggling to avoid bankruptcy. U.P.S. recently reminded its drivers not to leave their truck engines running when they deliver packages.
Nearly all of the jump in inflation last month came from energy. Overall prices rose 0.5 percent in July - and 3.2 percent over the last year - after having been flat in June.
Across the country, families are trying to figure out where to cut corners so they can afford gas that now averages $2.55 a gallon nationwide after posting the biggest weekly jump in at least 15 years, according to the latest government statistics.
"We spend much less," said Hollie Tubbs, a 32-year-old teacher's assistant in Brooklyn. Instead, of going to the movies, watching plays or dining out, she now takes walks in the park with her husband and son and checks the newspaper to see when a nearby Barnes & Noble will be holding a free story hour. "Everything is related to gas prices. The more you drive, the more you spend. In order to bring the budget down, we stopped driving."
If consumers are feeling hard-pressed by higher gasoline prices, matters could become worse this winter when heating oil bills arrive. Some commodity analysts say that is when the full impact of the higher energy costs will be felt.
Forecasters still expect economic growth to remain healthy for the rest of the year, as companies invest in new factories and the housing boom continues. But the high cost of oil already appears to be curbing growth, translating into unusually modest gains in employment and pay.
If history is any guide, higher prices will hurt consumption, curb the nation's output and shift spending patterns. The risks of a domino effect on the economy are real, economists say.
"We can't lose sight of the fact that energy restricts growth," said Anthony Chan, a senior economist at J. P. Morgan Asset Management. "It is doing so."
So far, the economy has showed much more resilience to higher energy costs than most analysts had anticipated. Although prices began rising in early 2002, consumers have kept shopping, companies have expanded and inflation has remained under control. At times, it seemed a new economic era had dawned.
Without question, economists say, rising oil prices cause less economic pain than they once did. It takes half as much energy to produce $1 of gross domestic product today, adjusted for inflation, than it did 30 years ago. Even at today's prices, oil is cheaper than it was in the early 1980's, once adjusted for inflation.
The falling cost of other goods, thanks in large part to global competition, has also helped cushion the blow from higher energy costs. While energy prices rose 3.8 percent from June to July, the price of all other goods inched up only 0.2 percent, the Labor Department said yesterday.
"There seems to be a greater tolerance in the economy in terms of what can be withstood," said Doug Leggate, an energy analyst with Citigroup in New York.
But a spike in oil prices still hurts, economists say, even if the pain does not come immediately. In the past, the full effect was not felt until a year, or even two years, after prices began rising. Both of the last two recessions - in 1990-91 and in 2001 - began more than a year after energy prices started a sharp climb.
"It is way too soon to be sanguine," said Andrew J. Oswald, an economist at the University of Warwick in England, who has written about oil. "The influence of a petroleum shock runs deep and runs slow. My own view is that we will find oil shocks still hurt, and hurt fundamentally."
It was only 13 months ago that the price of a barrel of crude settled above $40. Oil, which closed yesterday at $66.08 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange, is not likely to become much cheaper anytime soon, analysts say. Nor are natural gas prices, which have gained 73 percent this year. This means that winter heating bills for American households are set to soar. "
Th Rest of the Story
Rob
"Economy Shows Signs of Strain From Oil Prices
By JAD MOUAWAD and DAVID LEONHARDT
Published: August 17, 2005
Inflation surged last month, the government reported yesterday, as the long rise in energy prices finally seemed to be pinching the American economy. After absorbing the burden of oil at $40 a barrel, then at $50 and beyond, consumers have started to react as prices have risen above $60 in recent weeks.
Wal-Mart blamed high oil prices yesterday as it reported that in the recent quarter its profits rose at their slowest rate in four years. The chief executive, H. Lee Scott Jr., told investors that expensive oil was worrying him because it seemed to be erasing recent income gains for many customers.
Airlines have already felt the sting of increasing jet fuel costs. Last week, Delta, United and Continental raised domestic fares in their latest attempt to stem losses; Delta is struggling to avoid bankruptcy. U.P.S. recently reminded its drivers not to leave their truck engines running when they deliver packages.
Nearly all of the jump in inflation last month came from energy. Overall prices rose 0.5 percent in July - and 3.2 percent over the last year - after having been flat in June.
Across the country, families are trying to figure out where to cut corners so they can afford gas that now averages $2.55 a gallon nationwide after posting the biggest weekly jump in at least 15 years, according to the latest government statistics.
"We spend much less," said Hollie Tubbs, a 32-year-old teacher's assistant in Brooklyn. Instead, of going to the movies, watching plays or dining out, she now takes walks in the park with her husband and son and checks the newspaper to see when a nearby Barnes & Noble will be holding a free story hour. "Everything is related to gas prices. The more you drive, the more you spend. In order to bring the budget down, we stopped driving."
If consumers are feeling hard-pressed by higher gasoline prices, matters could become worse this winter when heating oil bills arrive. Some commodity analysts say that is when the full impact of the higher energy costs will be felt.
Forecasters still expect economic growth to remain healthy for the rest of the year, as companies invest in new factories and the housing boom continues. But the high cost of oil already appears to be curbing growth, translating into unusually modest gains in employment and pay.
If history is any guide, higher prices will hurt consumption, curb the nation's output and shift spending patterns. The risks of a domino effect on the economy are real, economists say.
"We can't lose sight of the fact that energy restricts growth," said Anthony Chan, a senior economist at J. P. Morgan Asset Management. "It is doing so."
So far, the economy has showed much more resilience to higher energy costs than most analysts had anticipated. Although prices began rising in early 2002, consumers have kept shopping, companies have expanded and inflation has remained under control. At times, it seemed a new economic era had dawned.
Without question, economists say, rising oil prices cause less economic pain than they once did. It takes half as much energy to produce $1 of gross domestic product today, adjusted for inflation, than it did 30 years ago. Even at today's prices, oil is cheaper than it was in the early 1980's, once adjusted for inflation.
The falling cost of other goods, thanks in large part to global competition, has also helped cushion the blow from higher energy costs. While energy prices rose 3.8 percent from June to July, the price of all other goods inched up only 0.2 percent, the Labor Department said yesterday.
"There seems to be a greater tolerance in the economy in terms of what can be withstood," said Doug Leggate, an energy analyst with Citigroup in New York.
But a spike in oil prices still hurts, economists say, even if the pain does not come immediately. In the past, the full effect was not felt until a year, or even two years, after prices began rising. Both of the last two recessions - in 1990-91 and in 2001 - began more than a year after energy prices started a sharp climb.
"It is way too soon to be sanguine," said Andrew J. Oswald, an economist at the University of Warwick in England, who has written about oil. "The influence of a petroleum shock runs deep and runs slow. My own view is that we will find oil shocks still hurt, and hurt fundamentally."
It was only 13 months ago that the price of a barrel of crude settled above $40. Oil, which closed yesterday at $66.08 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange, is not likely to become much cheaper anytime soon, analysts say. Nor are natural gas prices, which have gained 73 percent this year. This means that winter heating bills for American households are set to soar. "
Th Rest of the Story
Rob
QUOTE
ITJock:
...This means that winter heating bills for American households are set to soar. \"
And we're supposed to have sympathy for those people who choose to live in those big-ass houses that suck up all that unncessary heat? Why don't they try buying a smaller house, or better yet, move to one that doesn't use home heating oil. How antiquated.
...This means that winter heating bills for American households are set to soar. \"
QUOTE
ITJock:
From the NY Times:...
Yeah, there's a credible source. From the NY Times:...
MIB: You said:
I refused to be one of these idiots who was too stupid to realize just what causes high oil/gas prices.
So, the question begs to be asked...just what kind of idiot are you then? Sorry, I just couldn't resist. I would also like to know, since, of course, you have ALL the answers to ALL problems in the world, just what is causing this sudden and unjustified spike in gas prices? I've heard everything from hurricane Irene to increased summer driving to increased global demand. As for home heating, you are sooo right. Kick that widow out of the large home she has lived in for 40 years. The bitch probably doesn't deserve to live there anyway. Maybe we could start burning coal again...now there's an energy policy...environment be damned. Let's start a new national energy policy where if someone can't afford their heating bills, we will simply supply them with knitting needles and they could knit themselves a sweater. Still cold? Too bad. If you really are a judge, I sure would hate to be in your courtroom. Your lack of compassion and understanding of the needs of humans literally astounds me. Lay off the Kool-Aid...it's eating your brain.
I refused to be one of these idiots who was too stupid to realize just what causes high oil/gas prices.
So, the question begs to be asked...just what kind of idiot are you then? Sorry, I just couldn't resist. I would also like to know, since, of course, you have ALL the answers to ALL problems in the world, just what is causing this sudden and unjustified spike in gas prices? I've heard everything from hurricane Irene to increased summer driving to increased global demand. As for home heating, you are sooo right. Kick that widow out of the large home she has lived in for 40 years. The bitch probably doesn't deserve to live there anyway. Maybe we could start burning coal again...now there's an energy policy...environment be damned. Let's start a new national energy policy where if someone can't afford their heating bills, we will simply supply them with knitting needles and they could knit themselves a sweater. Still cold? Too bad. If you really are a judge, I sure would hate to be in your courtroom. Your lack of compassion and understanding of the needs of humans literally astounds me. Lay off the Kool-Aid...it's eating your brain.
MIB,
your obsession with Kool-Aid (Oh Yeah!!!) as noted earlier, tells me that you watch way too much Bill O'Reilly. That works for him cuz it's his gimmick.... that doesn't work for others.
But since you state that the Times is NOT a credible source... then tell us.. what source would you attest to as credible source?
your obsession with Kool-Aid (Oh Yeah!!!) as noted earlier, tells me that you watch way too much Bill O'Reilly. That works for him cuz it's his gimmick.... that doesn't work for others.
But since you state that the Times is NOT a credible source... then tell us.. what source would you attest to as credible source?
MIB SAID
As for exploration, we've scoured the globe for the past century. In the last five years, there's only been one major find. And it's in Bohai Bay, China. And no one is expecting to tap that for a couple of years. You gotta accept that big finds will be a thing of the past.
Refineries. The expense to building them in the U.S. is prohibitive. And existing refineries have been adding capacity for years.
Gas taxes here are a joke compared to Europe.
Blends -- so we let California drown in smog. It would cost a fortune to retool our refineries and no one wants to take a refinery out of commission just now.
My biggest problem is that conservation worked in Europe and in Asia. Japan uses less oil now than in the past. We, thanks to some conservation, use less oil to produce more GDP. But we could go further WITHOUT a loss in quality of life.
QUOTE
What we CAN do, among other things, is:
Get rid of all these useless special blends of gasoline--California alone has over 15 or more blends!
Lower damn gas taxes
Build more refineries (should have done this years ago, since it takes many years to build just one)
Continue oil exploration
You're freakin' kidding me. I started walking and carpooling 5 months ago and I noticed that I spent $40.00 less a week on gas! (Maybe more as of this past month). Heck I use only 5 gallons a week. Now multiply that by a couple million people ... Get rid of all these useless special blends of gasoline--California alone has over 15 or more blends!
Lower damn gas taxes
Build more refineries (should have done this years ago, since it takes many years to build just one)
Continue oil exploration
As for exploration, we've scoured the globe for the past century. In the last five years, there's only been one major find. And it's in Bohai Bay, China. And no one is expecting to tap that for a couple of years. You gotta accept that big finds will be a thing of the past.
Refineries. The expense to building them in the U.S. is prohibitive. And existing refineries have been adding capacity for years.
Gas taxes here are a joke compared to Europe.
Blends -- so we let California drown in smog. It would cost a fortune to retool our refineries and no one wants to take a refinery out of commission just now.
My biggest problem is that conservation worked in Europe and in Asia. Japan uses less oil now than in the past. We, thanks to some conservation, use less oil to produce more GDP. But we could go further WITHOUT a loss in quality of life.
Someone please take millerbeach aside and explain the use of sarcasm to him.
Interesting article the today's Globe and Mail (Toronto) about the VEEP coming up to Alberta to visit the Tar Sands project. (hint. More oil recoverable with current technologies than any other country in the world except Saudi Arabia, and that's just the Tar Sands).
One of the points that I found funny.
"Canada has mounted a sometimes frustrating education effort to convince skeptical U.S. policy makers that Canada, not Saudi Arabia or Venezuela, is the leading supplier of crude to the United States."
Okay. What's wrong with that line of thinking. And why doesn't it surprise me.
Oh, and one more thing. Rumours are starting to fly in Ottawa that in response to the US ignoring the ruling re: nafta on softwood lumber (the US lost, was told to give back $5 billion it had collected in illegal tarriffs,. The US said we know we lost and the duties are illegal, but we're keeping the money and we're going to continue to charge the duties.), that the government is considering an export tax on unprocessed petroleum products to re-coup the billions the US gov't owes us.
And you think gas prices are high now. Add an export tax (I've heard anywhere from 10% to a flat $10 per barrell) to 2 million barrels per day and figure it out.
But at least the lumber companies make a nice profit
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/Business/
One of the points that I found funny.
"Canada has mounted a sometimes frustrating education effort to convince skeptical U.S. policy makers that Canada, not Saudi Arabia or Venezuela, is the leading supplier of crude to the United States."
Okay. What's wrong with that line of thinking. And why doesn't it surprise me.
Oh, and one more thing. Rumours are starting to fly in Ottawa that in response to the US ignoring the ruling re: nafta on softwood lumber (the US lost, was told to give back $5 billion it had collected in illegal tarriffs,. The US said we know we lost and the duties are illegal, but we're keeping the money and we're going to continue to charge the duties.), that the government is considering an export tax on unprocessed petroleum products to re-coup the billions the US gov't owes us.
And you think gas prices are high now. Add an export tax (I've heard anywhere from 10% to a flat $10 per barrell) to 2 million barrels per day and figure it out.
But at least the lumber companies make a nice profit
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/Business/
QUOTE
Lksimcoe:
Interesting article the today's Globe and Mail (Toronto) about the VEEP coming up to Alberta to visit the Tar Sands project. (hint. More oil recoverable with current technologies than any other country in the world except Saudi Arabia, and that's just the Tar Sands)...
Oh, and one more thing. Rumours are starting to fly in Ottawa that in response to the US ignoring the ruling re: nafta on softwood lumber (the US lost, was told to give back $5 billion it had collected in illegal tarriffs,. The US said we know we lost and the duties are illegal, but we're keeping the money and we're going to continue to charge the duties.), that the government is considering an export tax on unprocessed petroleum products to re-coup the billions the US gov't owes us.
And you think gas prices are high now. Add an export tax (I've heard anywhere from 10% to a flat $10 per barrell) to 2 million barrels per day and figure it out.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/Business/
Interesting article the today's Globe and Mail (Toronto) about the VEEP coming up to Alberta to visit the Tar Sands project. (hint. More oil recoverable with current technologies than any other country in the world except Saudi Arabia, and that's just the Tar Sands)...
Oh, and one more thing. Rumours are starting to fly in Ottawa that in response to the US ignoring the ruling re: nafta on softwood lumber (the US lost, was told to give back $5 billion it had collected in illegal tarriffs,. The US said we know we lost and the duties are illegal, but we're keeping the money and we're going to continue to charge the duties.), that the government is considering an export tax on unprocessed petroleum products to re-coup the billions the US gov't owes us.
And you think gas prices are high now. Add an export tax (I've heard anywhere from 10% to a flat $10 per barrell) to 2 million barrels per day and figure it out.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/Business/
Chuckle - Canada is ALWAYS overlooked. wink Don't worry, Be happy... You are absolutely SAFE! from invasion. The Republicans REALLY don't want 13 new States that would ALL vote Democratic. Besides, can you see them trying to explain to the SBC or the Christian Coalition why they took over Montreals Gay Village?
R :cool:
QUOTE
ITJock:
Chuckle - Canada is ALWAYS overlooked. wink
Don't worry, Be happy... You are absolutely SAFE! from invasion. The Republicans REALLY don't want 13 new States that would ALL vote Democratic.
Besides, can you see them trying to explain to the SBC or the Christian Coalition why they took over Montreals Gay Village?
R :cool:
Montreals gay village is very nice, but if they took over Toronto's gay village, they'd have real problems. I ain't gonna drive 500km to Montreal to buy my porn!
QUOTE
Lksimcoe:
Interesting article the today's Globe and Mail (Toronto) about the VEEP coming up to Alberta to visit the Tar Sands project. (hint. More oil recoverable with current technologies than any other country in the world except Saudi Arabia, and that's just the Tar Sands)...
Oh, and one more thing. Rumours are starting to fly in Ottawa that in response to the US ignoring the ruling re: nafta on softwood lumber (the US lost, was told to give back $5 billion it had collected in illegal tarriffs,. The US said we know we lost and the duties are illegal, but we're keeping the money and we're going to continue to charge the duties.), that the government is considering an export tax on unprocessed petroleum products to re-coup the billions the US gov't owes us.
And you think gas prices are high now. Add an export tax (I've heard anywhere from 10% to a flat $10 per barrell) to 2 million barrels per day and figure it out.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/Business/
Interesting article the today's Globe and Mail (Toronto) about the VEEP coming up to Alberta to visit the Tar Sands project. (hint. More oil recoverable with current technologies than any other country in the world except Saudi Arabia, and that's just the Tar Sands)...
Oh, and one more thing. Rumours are starting to fly in Ottawa that in response to the US ignoring the ruling re: nafta on softwood lumber (the US lost, was told to give back $5 billion it had collected in illegal tarriffs,. The US said we know we lost and the duties are illegal, but we're keeping the money and we're going to continue to charge the duties.), that the government is considering an export tax on unprocessed petroleum products to re-coup the billions the US gov't owes us.
And you think gas prices are high now. Add an export tax (I've heard anywhere from 10% to a flat $10 per barrell) to 2 million barrels per day and figure it out.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/Business/
Chuckle - Canada is ALWAYS overlooked. wink Don't worry, Be happy... You are absolutely SAFE! from invasion. The Republicans REALLY don't want 13 new States that would ALL vote Democratic. Besides, can you see them trying to explain to the SBC or the Christian Coalition why they took over Montreals Gay Village?
R :cool:
I rode my bike 30 some miles getting to and from work today.
The MIB and Philly farces merit a reply?
The MIB and Philly farces merit a reply?
QUOTE
Erik G:
I rode my bike 30 some miles getting to and from work today.
The MIB and Philly farces merit a reply?
If you hadn't noticed, we are trying to ignore them...I rode my bike 30 some miles getting to and from work today.
The MIB and Philly farces merit a reply?
Rob
Gee, sorry, I didn't get that memo. I'm still trying to figure out his (MIB) twisted sense of humor and/or sarcasm.
QUOTE
ITJock:
If you hadn't noticed, we are trying to ignore them...
Rob
Please do. I don't need to waste my supreme intelligence on those who refuse to see the truth.
If you hadn't noticed, we are trying to ignore them...
Rob
MIB, was that humor, sarcasm, or your over-inflated ego?
[quote]MIB:
[/quote]Please do. I don't need to waste my supreme intelligence on those who refuse to see the truth. [/quote]
Now we know what happened to Baby Stuey! He bacame a Judge!
R
[/quote]Please do. I don't need to waste my supreme intelligence on those who refuse to see the truth. [/quote]
Now we know what happened to Baby Stuey! He bacame a Judge!
R
[quote]ITJock:
[quote]MIB:
[/quote]Please do. I don't need to waste my supreme intelligence on those who refuse to see the truth. [/quote]Now we know what happened to Baby Stuey! He bacame a Judge!
R [/QUOTE]
But does he still wear the diapers?
[quote]MIB:
[/quote]Please do. I don't need to waste my supreme intelligence on those who refuse to see the truth. [/quote]Now we know what happened to Baby Stuey! He bacame a Judge!
R [/QUOTE]
But does he still wear the diapers?
QUOTE
millerbeach:
MIB, was that humor, sarcasm, or your over-inflated ego?
I'll let you figure that out. I'll check back around Christmas when you might have it done.
MIB, was that humor, sarcasm, or your over-inflated ego?
[quote]Lksimcoe
[/quote]But does he still wear the diapers?
[/QB][/QUOTE]
What do you think is on underneith those robes?
R
[/quote]But does he still wear the diapers?
[/QB][/QUOTE]What do you think is on underneith those robes?
R
Pedaled my bike past the asphalt plant.
Funny thing, still are as many cars on the road as ever. Drivers are as bad as ever. Prices will go up everywhere to reflect the extra cost of manufacture and transportation. I don't see any SUV and hoss truck drivers slowing down much if at all.
So I will pay the extra cost when I cannot avoid it. I just wonder what would drive the cost of plant fuels up. Drought for a few years? The manufacturing and energy needs would stay the same. Unless the wind and sun started costing more of course. One would think with holy ozone that the increase in UV radiation might make solar options work better, especially passive ones.
edited to add, I am forcing myself to ride to work when my body allows. I need to feed my mindbody and not the trolls on the highway or information superhighway. So try not to take it too personally MIB and Philly. I will say "High?" to you in the bike lane just the same.
[ August 18, 2005, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Erik G ]
Funny thing, still are as many cars on the road as ever. Drivers are as bad as ever. Prices will go up everywhere to reflect the extra cost of manufacture and transportation. I don't see any SUV and hoss truck drivers slowing down much if at all.
So I will pay the extra cost when I cannot avoid it. I just wonder what would drive the cost of plant fuels up. Drought for a few years? The manufacturing and energy needs would stay the same. Unless the wind and sun started costing more of course. One would think with holy ozone that the increase in UV radiation might make solar options work better, especially passive ones.
edited to add, I am forcing myself to ride to work when my body allows. I need to feed my mindbody and not the trolls on the highway or information superhighway. So try not to take it too personally MIB and Philly. I will say "High?" to you in the bike lane just the same.
[ August 18, 2005, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Erik G ]
MIB, Christmas? Maybe in your mind you are that complicated, but I had you figured out months ago. Now be a good boy and finish your kool-aid. You're getting cranky, so it's time for your nap.
Okay. Newsflash: gas is too cheap!
How many people whine about $2.50 U.S for a gallon of gas, but then drop $2.50 on a quart of bottled water at the gas station?
Of course, I prefer to do my conversion on the beer scale. Beer up her ein the over-taxed and not-so-frozen north is running close to $2.00 a can. 3 cans roughly make up a litre (that's slightly bigger than a U.S. quart.) Gas is a buck a litre. Beer is 6 bucks a litre.
Beer is made from hops and malt and barley (I think.) They grow in the ground and we can make more. Gas is made from dead dinosaurs and they ain't making them no more...
Gas is too cheap. And beer, god dammit, is too expensive!
How many people whine about $2.50 U.S for a gallon of gas, but then drop $2.50 on a quart of bottled water at the gas station?
Of course, I prefer to do my conversion on the beer scale. Beer up her ein the over-taxed and not-so-frozen north is running close to $2.00 a can. 3 cans roughly make up a litre (that's slightly bigger than a U.S. quart.) Gas is a buck a litre. Beer is 6 bucks a litre.
Beer is made from hops and malt and barley (I think.) They grow in the ground and we can make more. Gas is made from dead dinosaurs and they ain't making them no more...
Gas is too cheap. And beer, god dammit, is too expensive!
[ August 19, 2005, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: ITJock ]
QUOTE
chuckvanc:
gas is too cheap!
How many people whine about $2.50 U.S for a gallon of gas, but then drop $2.50 on a quart of bottled water at the gas station?
But we aren't forced to buy 20 bottles of beer every week. If we choose to, we can refrain from bottled water purchase. We don't have that option with gasoline for our more of transportation.gas is too cheap!
How many people whine about $2.50 U.S for a gallon of gas, but then drop $2.50 on a quart of bottled water at the gas station?
Erik G is right. so far.. everyone is complaining and whining about the price of gas. But with a few exceptions, no one is cutting back on their own habits. Everyone is waiting for someone else to make sacrifices.
I really thought that we'd have $3/gallon gas by next summer. But now I'm thinking that by next summer it should be close to $4/gallon
Yesterday I noticed my $2.67 a gallon unleaded went to $2.77 a gallon unleaded regular in a day. I for one, am doing my part by cutting back driving. I can't afford the price of gas. I am going to do more walking and more biking and less driving. Thats my small contribution.
[/qb][/QUOTE]But we aren't forced to buy 20 bottles of beer every week.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
You obviously have never lived in Canada. I think it's a national law. But the brand varies by region
In the British Columbia, it's Kokanee Pilsner
In Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba its Old Style Pilsner
In Ontario it's Molson Canadian or Labatt's Blue
In Quebec it's Labatt's 50, or as we call it "Cinquantte"
In the Maritimes its Schooner or Keiths (pronounced "keets"). It can be Moosehead, but you need a Ministerial permit.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
You obviously have never lived in Canada. I think it's a national law. But the brand varies by region
In the British Columbia, it's Kokanee Pilsner
In Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba its Old Style Pilsner
In Ontario it's Molson Canadian or Labatt's Blue
In Quebec it's Labatt's 50, or as we call it "Cinquantte"
In the Maritimes its Schooner or Keiths (pronounced "keets"). It can be Moosehead, but you need a Ministerial permit.
Nobody forces you to buy gas either. I don't even have a driver's license.
QUOTE
JC:
Nobody forces you to buy gas either. I don't even have a driver's license.
Maybe you would like to come up to Oklahoma and push me around in my car.
Nobody forces you to buy gas either. I don't even have a driver's license.
QUOTE
JC:
Nobody forces you to buy gas either. I don't even have a driver's license.
Pardon me... But I'm working from the standpoint of the average american here... and I'm trying to work with that in the context of reality.
Nobody forces you to buy gas either. I don't even have a driver's license.
Gas is cheap. I always find it woefully ironic that folks drive around trying to find the cheapest price. Let's say you find a place that is .10 cheaper a gallon. You wasted gas driving around. If you fill 10 gallons you save a dollar. If you do that all year you might save an incredible 50 dollars. WOW !! Considering how much money people waste on luxuries and entertainment everyday, not to mention disposable petroleum products, the whining is just pathetic.
So I am forced to spend more money on gas. I would save $1400-$2000 just by dropping my car insurance and not driving from April through September. That is a huge amount of money to me. That is an IRA contribution for a year. That was a years worth of medical coverage.
Actually it was a month and a half bicycle vacation
So I am forced to spend more money on gas. I would save $1400-$2000 just by dropping my car insurance and not driving from April through September. That is a huge amount of money to me. That is an IRA contribution for a year. That was a years worth of medical coverage.
Actually it was a month and a half bicycle vacation
You can avoid driving around by logging on to sites like fueltracker.com that monitor and post prices around the country. I've found that Costco is consistently the lowest in SD, which has some of the highest gas prices in the nation.
I tried fueltracker, but I think its only for SoCal area as I entered my zip code, and nothing came up. frown
Sorry about that Puckman! I guess it only works down here. BUT I know there are other sites on line that do the same, per an article in the WSJ, and cheapgas might be one of them. Google and learn!
BTW, when I was in CDA/Post Falls, ID last month, Safeway had the cheapest gas!
BTW, when I was in CDA/Post Falls, ID last month, Safeway had the cheapest gas!
This morning while watching the CBS morning news they had on a guy from some outfit called Swissair, who correctly predicted that the price of oil this summer would go to about $65.00 a barrel, or about $3.00 a gallon. He is now saying he expects the price to go to maybe $80.00 a barrel or about $5.00 a gallon, before it settles back down. He was asked about what Americans could do to help save money, and he brought up conservation. He said that he didn't think conservation would be too much of an issue until gas did rise to about $5.00 a gallon though. frown
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