I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this yet but Rev. Karen Dammann, a lesbian minister in Washington state, has been charged with "practices declared by the United Methodist Church to be incompatible to Christian teachings"....I would not be surprised to see some lunatics in the deep south take this type of action but now it is happening in the Pacific Northwest? :confused: ....at least it was good to see so many people stand up for her and even be arrested in support of Karen.

[ March 18, 2004, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: gamecock ]

My former pastor at Bethany United Methodist Church in SF is going to be brought up on charges for marrying gay couples. I love her to death, but I'm over the Methodists.

The Episcopalians are far from perfect, but a better fit. I'm being confirmed in June.

Kudos, GJ, on your upcoming confirmation in June (along with your nuptials to BG as well -- both in Vermont, Mass., Oregon or wherever else the two of you are officially wed )....it's absurd "trials" like this one in Washington that I'm confident will not only help to unify all of us but will gradually turn many moderates and fair-minded citizens against these religious fundamentalists who continue to advocate such abhorrent discrimination.

I attend a mthodist church and I believe that the doctrine of the Methodist allows for non-discrimination of homosexuals, so this law suit has me a bit confused.

Wade, I'm glad you've found a comfortable UMC. There are lots of them around. My problem is with the direction I see the national church heading. It could be worse, but it could be much better.

Here's what the United Methodist Church says about homosexuality.

I'm only Catholic - and you all probably know where my church stands on this issue - so you'll have to excuse me for being ignorant of what the Methodists allow, but...

If being a practicing lesbian is against church doctrine, I would argue that the Methodist church is well within its rights to take this action. I am certainly not an apologist for bigotry, but if she became a minister knowing her church could discipline her for being in a forbidden relationship, I have little sympathy for her based on what I know of this case and the rules she agreed to live under.

No sympathy for her? The point isn't whether the church has the right to do this. Every institution has the right to enforce its laws as it sees fit. The point is whether those laws need to be changed. Who's to say that her actions won't nudge them into changing their rules?

If the only option to lesbians and gays who are members of an institution that doesn't allow homosexuality to be 'practiced' is to leave the institution, we'd be completely out in the cold. Her decision to stay and contest their rules is a good thing. Even if she fails.

[ March 19, 2004, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: TomFord ]

It's called "changing the system from inside."

I don't disagree, however, religious institutions are not democracies nor are they state institutions. If she was in the military and was contesting DADT, I'd be supporting her 100%. But pushing a religion to accept and condone behavior it finds abhorrent and contrary to its basic principles is a battle of an entirely different magnitude. So much so that I have to say that she picked the wrong profession if she thought she could do the equivalent of bringing her partner to the church picnic and not expect it to result in controversy.

Hey fella, the Methodists do allow homosexuality. So what is your point? If the Methodist doctrine is inclusive of gays and gay rights, why the turn about now?

No, they're institutions run by people who make choices on what's acceptable and what isn't acceptable based on their subjective reading of certain scriptures. But nothing is set in stone. The choices they make change over time, and will continue to change. There's nothing to say they won't, in time, change their mind about this.

From the CNN link: "Tolbert said the church is inconsistent in how it applies its Book of Discipline. At one time, for example, divorce was not allowed, but the church has since changed its stance, she said."

She's invested a good part of her life and career in that ministry, and she doesn't want to have to hide a fundamental part of her life to stay in it. You say "But pushing a religion to accept and condone behavior it finds abhorrent and contrary to its basic principles is a battle of an entirely different magnitude." So she dreams big. Bully for her. And good for us in the long run.

Wade, read it a little more carefully. The UMC doesn't necessarily "allow" homosexuality - they don't ordain out gay clergy, they don't perform marriages, they don't even allow commitment ceremonies in UMC churches, and they fire clergy who perform ceremonies. They recognize the so-called "ex-gays" and repeatedly call us "incompatible" with Christian teaching.

There's a lot about me personally that may be "incompatible" with Christian teaching. I am an imperfect human being and therefore a sinner by definition. It's not because of my sexual orientation, just like it's not about my blue eyes.

BTW, Tom, great points.

And Wade - I'm not attacking you. I'm glad that you've found a good church and I hope you stay there as long as you feel welcome. (((hugs)))

acquaman: i know a few gay Catholics who are out at church, and one couple (both practicing) who attend services together. They're quite low key about being gay, though. But, in their own way, they too are--as gator jamie put it--changing the system from within by being out and coupled in a place that doesn't look favorably on their kind. Of course, this is New York, so it's not controversial. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's more than one way of changing the system from inside. She chose a difficult, loud, contentious way, but that doesn't mean it isn't worthy of support. Quite the opposite. She's brave. And as good as working quietly to change the system from within is, sometimes you need tough broads like her to stick it to people who are basically hypocrites (all the talk of the importance of honesty, family, love, marriage, and yet they will only accept her if she lies about her life or tries to pervert herself into something that she isn't).

GJ: thanks.

Tom Ford:

Point taken. I guess I come from a faith that essentially ignores all attempts to move it out of the stone age.

I also know many gay Catholics who attend service together (both in suburban churches as well as at the local Jesuit Urban Center which is openly gay-friendly).

Although I still think that she is fighting a losing battle, can we agree that but for the pioneers among us we'd be a lot worse off?

aquaman

aquaman, I appreciate your perspective coming from a Catholic background -- in Boston, no less --. We certainly can agree, as well as the fact that it may be a losing battle. But thank goodness for pioneers, including Fr. Mychal Judge.

Good news!....Justice was served today as Rev. Dammann was acquitted following the 3-day trial and will be allowed to continue her ministry.

Here's another story about a lesbian minister. She was defrocked by the United Methodist Church but now they've reversed their decision.