We sure have come a long way in outing politicians. I remember in the late 1980's and early 1990's, how difficult it was to get the gay and mainstream press to cover outing campaigns involving closeted gays, both Democratic and GOP.

Regarding Foley, I think it's been an open secret that he is gay. I just wonder why it took so long to get into the straight press.

Correct me if I am wrong about this, but we now have two gay or lesbian Democrats in the House; Barney Frank and Tammy Baldwin, and Jim Kolbe (who was also outed) and now Foley.

Maybe these four should form a gay and lesbian House caucus.

Here's an excerpt from the story about Foley's outing.
- - -

New Times Broward-Palm Beach [Florida]
08-MAY-03
http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2003-05-...ml/1/index.html

Out with the Truth
With his voting record at issue, why won't U.S. Congressman Mark Foley just
say that he's gay?

By Bob Norman, bob.norman@newtimesbpb.com

When I called the Christian Coalition of Florida last week, the
organization's deputy director, Carolyn Kunkle, answered.
"Hi," I said, "my name's Bob Norman with the New Times, and I'm
doing a story on Mark Foley's run for the Senate."
Without missing a beat, Kunkle said, "I imagine you're calling
about Mark Foley because he is a homosexual?"
Kunkle was right. Foley, the nine-year conservative Republican
U.S. representative out of Lake Worth, is gay. That is no revelation to
political and media types. Everyone knows it, though no newspaper outside
the gay press has ever really touched the issue.

[snip]

Foley's orientation was definitely a gossip item here in DC -- I think open secret is a good term for it.

You're correct about the 4 openly gay/lesbian members. (Gerry Studds and Steve Gunderson are openly gay former Members)

Funny (funny ironic, not funny ha ha) -- that Gunderson and now Foley were outed not by us but by the conservative wing of the GOP -- in both cases because the two men were attempting to advance in their careers and become more powerful -- Gunderson was on the verge of becoming Chairman of the Agriculture Committee and Foley was going to run for the Senate -- can't have that can we?

[ May 10, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: DCBucky ]

Is that true in Steve Gunderson's case? The invaluable Almanac of American Politics says Gunderson was outed in a New York Times magazine article. I wouldn't call that a bastion of religious right Republicanism.

I thought Rep. Gunderson was outed after he got into a bar spat (fight being too strong of a word) with some gay journalist at a (gay?) bar. One of them threw a drink on the other (can't recall who was the pitcher and who was the catcher), a spat that was precipitated by the journalist/columnist asking Gunderson when he was going to get out of the closet.

As for Foley, he still has a good chance of winning the Senate race. The Republican field will be crowded, especially on the right side of the spectrum. Foley is a conservative with a moderate image. Don't know if the Florida Dems will find a viable candidate. And if he pulls out of that race -- and I don't know why he should -- he could continue winning reelection from West Palm Beach in perpetuity. Gunderson was able to continue winning from a somewhat conservative western Wisconsin district (centered around La Crosse, if I remember). And Jim Kolbe has been able to continue winning in his Tucson-centered district.

If Foley wins the Republican nomination, with a plurality, for Bob Graham's Florida Senate seat, and the Dems put up a redneck from rural Florida -- maybe not even if -- think the Dem will using any gay-baiting, like the redneck Dem did to "light" Lindsey Graham in South Carolina?

[ May 10, 2003, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]

CITT -- that may be right -- although accounts I read said that Gunderson was outed on the House floor by Bob Dornan -- but perhaps it had already appeared in the Times (the Almanac of American Politics is a bible to me -- so I have no reason to doubt their version of it).

Gunderson was from the La Crosse area -- about the biggest town in his cd -- it's very rural -- all those Norwegian dairy farmers -- that's why the Agr. Committee chairmanship was so important. He probably could have continued winning his seat for years. Really a good guy.

Kolbe was about to be outed by the Advocate when he made his statement. I LOVE Jim Kolbe -- again a really good guy -- nice as can be. And as a congressional champion for free trade, one of my heroes.

I forget the exact timing, but Frank's outing came around the same time that his roommate -- a call boy -- got caught for running a male prostitution ring out of Frank's house -- and Frank claimed he had no idea ... Right ....

[ May 10, 2003, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: DCBucky ]

Tammy Baldwin, the Democrat from Wisconsin (right?), is the only member of Congress to not be outed WHILE in office, but to run openly as a homosexual and be elected.

I'm not so sure about Foley's election; the Christian Right in Florida may see fit to try to keep him out of office. I don't doubt that many Florida Republicans, however, as well as some Democrats, would vote for him no matter what his sexuality. Florida's other senator, let's not forget, is a moderate Democrat.

But here's a question: has he voted for anti-gay legislation? Has he supported anti-gay pols? If so, I don't think he should be returned to national office. We have enough hypocrites in both parties running things as is.

Regarding Gunderson, I know a little bit about his closetry since I am the activist who outed him by tossing a Coke on him in a gay bar in Northern Virginia, in 1990 or 1991. He was outed by gays, not the GOP.

My recollection about Kolbe coming out is that he voted the wrong way on DOMA and I started an email campaign to out him. If memory serves, David W. Dunlap, a gay reporter at the NY Times, mentioned the successful email outing campaign in his Times story about Kolbe throwing open the closet door. Unfornately, I can't find that Times article on the web.

But I did find this tidbit on Kolbe through a Google search.

>Rep. Jim Kolbe of Arizona becomes the fourth congressman...and second Republican...to come out; it was after an email campaign launched by San Francisco activist Michael Petrelis and others protesting his support of the Defense of Marriage Act. Windy City Times

Also, a good article in the Avocate from 1996, in the following excerpt, reminded me that there is another gay Republican in the House, Mr. Jim McCrery.

>Some activists took the vote on DOMA as a signal to start outing closeted lawmakers. Michael Petrelis, who gained notoriety for throwing a drink on Gunderson at a gay bar before the congressman came out, issued the call through an E-mail to gay activists, writers, and publications. Shortly afterward, gay broadcast journalist Kurt Wolfe outed Kolbe and Louisiana Republican Rep. Jim McCrery in radio and television reports in the Northeast. (The Advocate had reported McCrery’s sexual orientation in 1992.) The Advocate

So the secret, if you can call it that, about Foley's gay orientation has been reported on in the past in the gay media.

[ May 10, 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: MPetrelis ]

Foley voted for the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in 1996.
But other than that (which gay fave Clinton also supported), Foley has a very progressive record on gay rights issues -- e.g., supporting adding sexual orientation as a protected class.

According to the New Times article that started this whole thread:
Foley's also a little liberal for my tastes on issues such as funding for public broadcasting and family planning. (He votes for them.) All in all, he's fairly middle of the road, which makes him very electable state-wide in Florida, which tends to like both its Dems and its R's to be very very moderate.

[ May 10, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]

While we are on this topic, I have seen GOP representative David Dreier both in DC and the 26th congressioanl district in CA with some people that I know for a fact are gay. Im not saying the congressman is, but must admit that with him being single, close to 50 or so, the rumor mills get going. Also heard at one time that he was thinking of running for the senate from CA. Could it be that the skeletons in the closet kept him from doing so? Just asking.

I'm declaring May as Gay History Month.
And here's a history lesson, an article I found on the MPetrelis v. SGunderson feud, courtesy of google:

GUNDERSON IN SECOND GAY-BAR BRAWL

[ May 10, 2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]

Gee, I dont understand why he just doesnt come out, Im sure the GOP would welcome him with open arms.

the elephant in the room analogy is so dead on.

It doesn't matter whether he actively participates or not. He has ben outed. certainly if the Christian Coalition knows about it, it is widely known among the republican party.

If he believes that by being silent, this issue will magically go away, he is sadly tragically mistaken. He should address it head on and deal with it. But maybe he is delusional.

Wow, a "master media manipulator" right here on Outsports? NOOOO!

Well alright MPetrelis--work, Gay Activist! I remember reading about these incidents years ago--wow, and now he's here on Outsports!

I had forgotten about McCrery, who's from Louisiana, right? And he's a moderate Republican who's been fairly silent since he was outed, correct? I'm glad Foley's politics aren't so bad. I don't think the Democrats will gaybait in Florida, though; they risk turning off too many of their core voters there, unlike in South Carolina. BTW, I think Alex Sanders has some sugar in his tank too.

I think that the term "open secret" could also be applied to Drier, the current chair of the very powerful House Rules Committee. An ex of mine used to live in the same building as Drier when he and his Chief of Staff were "roommates." While he has not poked his head out of the closet to the extent that Foley has, his legislative record makes Drier much more ripe for the outing.

Interesting discussion on another Republican living a secret life. I'm sure if he survives, and possibly thrives by being elected to the Senate, he will be deemed a "nice gay guy NOT like those flaming Democrats like Barney."

I'm amazed at how the Republicans can be so hypocritical and how people like Foley can keep their mouths shut while their fellow party members are bashing homosexuality (and drawing phony distinctions between good and "evil" gays and lesbians). I'd like to know what Foley has said about Santorum's hateful remarks, if anything.

And why do so many in the GL community just let a guy like Foley get a free ride and actually embrace the guy when he has voted against arguably the most important legislation?

I will sit back and wait to see if the guy steps up to the plate and grows a set of balls.

Which legislation are you referring to? DOMA? From what it says in the article, it would appear that Foley's record on "gay" issues is pretty much identical to that of Bill Clinton, who was revered as the Messiah by the pashmina intelligentsia.

[ May 11, 2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Munson Man ]

Well Munson - can't say I disagree with you - Clinton shoved the Don't Ask policy down our throats (pardon the pun) -- BUT Clinton is not gay and that is the point I was trying to make. But your response gets back to what I have said many times - not everything is black and white and I appreciate your comments because they remind me how true that is.

(In response to many postings.)

That page doesn't open for me now.

I don't know anything about Foley or his politics. May I observe that you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar? Possibly he could use a little support right about now. I'm beginning to think that his outing may not be the death sentence that it used to be. If he keeps the constituents happy, I'd imagine he can be reelected.

As for the bar in northern VA, it was on King Street in Alexandria, and it closed years ago.

Seems to me I have an old Washington Post Magazine or New York Times Magazine article about Steve Gunderson. I have no idea where I put it.

[ May 11, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]

try the archives of the washington blade.

Speaking of B1 Bob:

http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/97/33/news-coker.php



[ May 11, 2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]

Shouldnt that be elephant in the closet?

I happen to be reading "Leading the Parade" a book of interviews with influential gay and lesbian activists from this century. This morning I started the Barney Frank chapter, and according to his own account he outed himself in a Boston Globe interview in 1987, and the Steve Gobie thing did not hit until 1989. Frank was reprimanded in 1990 for lying in a memo to an attorney about how he met Gobie (apparently Frank didn't want to admit he had hired a prostitute) and for voiding some tickets Gobie got using Frank's car.

If I remember another interview with Frank, this one in the Washington Post a few years ago, he allowed Gobie to live in an apartment in his house for a while after they stopped "dating" and that is where Gobie was running the prostitution ring (and dating a woman, by the way), so it is entirely possible Frank did not know, given he is a legendary work-a-holic.

Actually, he was from Osseo, a really small town between La Crosse and Eau Claire (both cities in the 50K range -- big enough to have TV stations and daily papers, but barely), both of which were in the district. His family has owned a dairy in Osseo for years. And full of Norvegian farmers, yah, sure, you betcha. Very rural district (west edge of state) and very safe for any Republican who avoids scandal.

Tammy Baldwin, by contrast, is from the Madison area, the most liberal part of the state (thanks to state government and the main UW campus, which is the Berkeley of the Midwest). If an openly LBGT candidate would get elected anywhere in Wisconsin, it's there, and she's survived at least one challenge from a homophobic right-wing candidate. :cool:

There've been rumors about Sen. Kohl for years (lifelong bachelor blah blah blah) but no confirmation that I can recall. He's from a family that turned a small grocery store into a supermarket chain (later sold to A&P) and a Target-like department store chain (also sold, now public I think). He bought the Bucks years ago to keep them in Milwaukee but reportedly wants to sell.

Fantomas, I believe it's:

You work it, Gay Activist!

>There've been rumors about Sen. Kohl for years (lifelong bachelor blah blah blah) but no confirmation that I can recall.

I seem to recall a story from one of the Milwaukee papers about Kohl reporting a robbery after two young men allegedly climb to the roof of his apartment building, and then used ropes to slither down onto his balcony.

The boys broke into the apartment and tied up Kohl, then proceeded to rob him.

Many speculated that Kohl actually picked up the boys in a cruising park near his apartment for sex, that they weren't really robbers who broke into his home.

Well, I don't know about Herb Kohl sexuality, but as far as I recall he's been pretty sympathetic to gay causes and issues. Another probable homosexual in the Democratic column is Barbara Mikulski. And I don't know too much about Maria Cantwell or Debbie Stabenow, but the former gives glamor lesbian and the latter "Ma." And then there's Hillary....

When Leahy or Jeffords steps down, perhaps Vermont can give us our first openly gay senator; s/he'd either be a liberal Republican or an even more liberal Democrat. That is, if Rhode Island, Maine or Connecticut doesn't get there first.

Probable? Mikulski is dykier than a mullet-headed field hockey player wearing a k.d. lang T-shirt to a Smith College reunion.

I live in the district Steve Gunderson represented for 16 years. In fact, I just moved back to my hometown about 40 minutes from Osseo. He is very personable. I covered a number of events he was part of when I was in the press and hosted him a number of times at events we sponsored as head of the chamber of commerce. (Yes, a Democratic leader of a chamber)He always knew his facts and was on top all issues. Being gay was common knowledge around here for a number of years.
When he decided not to run for re-election, I was introducing his successor Ron Kind to people in my hometown. One old man starting ripping Gunderson for his sexual orientation, Ron stopped him and gave him a quick speech on the right to privacy, fairness and treating people equally.
At that point, I knew I was supporting the right person.
We may not be as backwards as some people think I recently ran for a spot on the city council as an openly gay man. I lost to a 20-year incumbent by 6 votes. In the biggest turnout for a spring election in years.

But does she drive a Jeep Wrangler with a rainbow bumper sticker and a labrador wearing a red bandana riding shotgun?

Edited to add: she has to be wearing a baseball hat too. Mikulski, not the labrador.

[ May 13, 2003, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]

Hey milmill -- Wisconsinites are as far from being backwards as anyone -- they elected a GOP gay rep., the first openly lesbian Dem rep., then someone like Ron Kind who steps up to defend Gunderson at your public forum ...

and the first state in the nation (along with California) to elect two Jewish senators -- that's about as inclusive and forward thinking as one can get!

Ford Ranger pick up. And it's all taking place at the Dinah Shore.

Ixnay on the baseball cap - it musses the Bedhead coif. But the Old English sheepdog, who wears a Florida Gator bandana on game days, is too big to ride shotgun, so he sniffs the breeze out of a rear passenger window of the (freshly waxed) black Rodeo.

[ May 14, 2003, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: GatorJamie ]

Actually, shouldn't New York, Connecticut and Minnesota also get credit for this? Or do you mean at the same time?

New York elected Herbert H. Lehman from 1949-1957 and Jacob K. Javits from 1957-81; Connecticut seated Abe Ribicoff from 1963-81 and Joseph Lieberman beginning in 1989; Minnesota elected Rudy Boschwitz from 1978-91 and Paul Wellstone from 1991-2002.

It's also interesting that all five states, as well as most of the other ones (New Jersey, Michigan, etc .) have elected Jewish Democrats, though Boschwitz was a Republican and Pennsylvanians have repeatedly voted for the moderate Jewish Republican (except during the Thomas hearings) Arlen Specter.

Yes -- sorry about that.

California has sitting senators Boxer and Feinstein; Wisconsin has Feingold and Kohl.

Wisconsin has a long history of progressivism, going back to at least the La Follettes ... or at least it did before Tommy "Bloat the Budget and Payroll to Give My Cronies Contracts" Thompson.

I just saw yesterday that Foley is refusing to "answer any questions" about his sexuality. What's the big deal, man? Just say you're homo and get it over with! Is this to please the right-wing fanatics? Does he really think silence is the best policy in politics? He's no Tammy Baldwin or Barney Frank, nor is he a Jim Kolbe or Steve Gunderson. Whatever.

It was well known in Tallahassee that Mark was gay when he was serving in the state legislature (1990-94). One of my friends, who is female and a lobbyist, had taken him out to lunch. She took him to a place near FSU where all the frat boys hang out. He liked the view very much and voted for her bill.

Also, I was very involved in politics when I lived in Florida. Mark was one of the those guys who was very open when you met him in person. However, he never talked or mentioned his sexuality. It was like "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy.

Update on Foley from planetout.com:
Foley denounces gay rumors

On the one hand, even elected officials have some right to privacy (or used to). On the other hand, when the discussion gets this far, privacy becomes a moot point, and "none of your business" starts to sound like "I'm ashamed to tell you" (which alienates people on both sides of the fence).

All in all, a messy situation.

A lot of guys here like to have it both ways. Let's assume - strictly for the sake of argument - that Foley is heterosexual. If he were to vocally declare his heterosexuality, like say, e.g., a New York Mets catcher, then some folks would be all over him for feeling the need to make a public declaration of woman-loving, like he's implying there's something wrong with being gay. Plenty of folks thought that way when Piazza held his infamous news conference.

I think Foley's handling it OK. I have a lot more respect for his way of handling gay rumors than I do how another Congressman Foley handled similar rumors over a decade earlier. There were rumors about a Washington Congressman, who was ascending the House (Democratic) leadership. When the talk got louder as he rose higher, the bachelor Congressman suddenly married his (female) chief of staff. How convenient. Of course, it worked out for him because he became Speaker of the House, eventually.

I have no respect for that. And I can think of at least one Republican -- former House Budget Committee chair turned FoxNews anchor -- who may have done the same thing to deflect the same sort of rumor. My loss of respect in such a circumstance is quite bipartisan.

In light of how some -- Dems and R's both -- have handled similar gossip, I've got no problem with how Mark Foley has chosen to handle this situation.

I will agree with Charlie on the Trees about being true to your convictions. If you are in the public arena, your whole personal life is opened up for inspection. This process includes straights and gays in any political office.

Rep. Foley has played both sides of the political fence when it is convenient for him. He voted for DOMA legislation back in the mid 90's when Newt was in power. After his vote, various rumors started to fly around in the political community of Florida and the gay community of South Florida about his sexuality. However, over time, they died down because Mark started
"fencing building" strategies toward the gay community where he started to reach out and accept campaign contributors from the local professional (i.e. business owners, educators, lawyers, doctors, etc) gay and lesbians. Also, he sponsored and favored legislation which protect gays and lesbians on the job.

Now, he is being called on the mat for playing both sides of the street. I don't agree with the "outing" process being played out on him in the mainstream media. However, he must have done something for the media to start questioning his sexuality just like when Sen. Gary Hart challenged the Miami Herald to find some skeltons in his closet. Rumors about Hart's infidelities were flying around for a long time just like good ole Bill's sexual drive in the 1992 campaign. Remember, the SNL's skits against Clinton before he became president.

If Foley really does not want to talk about his personal life, then there is nothing we can do to force the issue. However, it does look odd because nearly all politicians use their "perfect" American families to their advantage in campaigning, so certainly they are open about their personal lives.

The problem I have with Foley, which is different than Piazza, is that Foley has made it clear, with his insistence the story was coming from Democrats, that he considers being called gay an insult, a vicious rumor. Piazza simply came out and said, "no, I'm not gay and I am not the player that supposedly is coming out." From what I remember he was not insulting or dismissive or repulsed by gays, he simply stated he was not one. Foley, on the other hand, flat-out refuses to ask the question, and regards it as revolting and grotesque for the question to even be asked.

This begs the questions - if Foley is straight and votes pro-gay, why would he do that if he thinks being gay is so bad? if Foley is gay, then he is self-hating and has a lot of issues to work out. Just from the evidence presented, it is pretty clear he is gay, and I think the G&L Victory Fund was wrong to simply accept his silence on the question. It is relevant to his campaign, in light of his voting record, and he should be called to task because of the way he has handled the story.

Good point. It's a little like the Montana candidate's response to his opponent baiting him with the hairdresser ad. Or Sandy Koufax's flip-out over the Post innuendo. If Foley thinks it's so awful to be seen as gay, what does that say about how he views us (if he's straight) or himself (if he's gay)? :confused:

That said, I'm against outing in general (I think people should come out voluntarily, when they're ready) unless it involves homophobes whose hypocrisy needs to be exposed. I don't get the impression, from what I've read here, that Foley (whom I'd never heard of before this discussion) falls into that category. Oh well.

I've been struck by the strongly negative terms used throughout the affair, as I've read various reports have found myself becoming unclear about what exactly was being condemned, the supposed outing or homosexuality as a way of being.

• revolting, unforgivable - Cong Mark Foley, R-Florida
• disgusting - Cong Robert Wexler, D-Florida
• despicable - House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas
• revolting, sleazy - Carole Jean Jordan, Florida Republican Party Chairman
• accusations - Scott Maddox, Florida Democratic Party Chairman
• gossip, innuendo - Towson Fraser, Florida GOP Communications Director

It certainly is, Ollie! :confused:

[ May 29, 2003, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]