In the April 27 edition of The Denver Post there's an article about Richard Greenberg's Pulitzer-nominated play called, "Take Me Out," about a gay baseball player. In this article Colorado Rockies pitcher Todd Jones says,

"I wouldn't want a gay guy being around me. It's got nothing to do with me being scared. That's the problem: All these people say he's got all these rights. Yeah, he's got rights or whatever, but he shouldn't walk around proud. It's like he's rubbing it in our race. 'See me, hear me roar.' We're not trying to be close-minded, but then again, why be controntational when you don't really have to be?"

Please take a minute and contact the Rockies and let them know how you feel. If you go to www.coloradorockies.com you can contact the management. Just one more ignorant comment that can't go unchallenged.

Here's the complete article.

Here we go again...I had hoped after the John Rocker controversy a few years ago, players like Todd Jones would think before they speak. On the other hand, it's encouraging that some progress is being made, as evidenced by Mark Grace's comments in the article.

I'm beginning to think that baseball players are, simply, uneducated, deeply closeted, dumbasses. I don't know whether to report on, or ignore, their stupidity.

grace's comments were more openminded...but where did he get his "one in six or seven men are homosexual" statistic????

He conducted a locker room survey of the the Diamondbacks.

My vote would be to keep reporting on them, and reporting on them, and reporting on them some more. Not one of them should get a free ride. Seeing the quote from Todd Jones makes me extra happy his team got swept by the Phils last week. wink

If you read the Denver Post article, be warned--some very important plot information is in the article so you might want to avoid it if you haven't seen the show and don't want to know what happens. Learn from my mistake. wink

If you subscribe to Sporting News magazine, cancel your subscription or at least protest vehemently. Jones does a weekly column for them. I'll be contacting them this afternoon.

Email Sporting News at yourturn@sportingnews.com

You can also email Mr. Jones directly at tjones@sportingnews.com

[ April 28, 2003, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

How about doing some reporting on the other end of the spectrum? For me, what I really take from this story is how Mark Grace stands out for his fine character. Homophobia is rampant in professional sports and stories like Todd Jones are a dime a dozen, but even those people who don't agree with them will rarely speak directly and positively about gays in sports. The only other person that comes to my immediate mind is Brad Ausmus. I'd like to hear more of the good stuff

I wish that a player from the Rockies would "come out" and show pride in being gay, then Todd would have to deal with the situation. My guess is that he'd be traded to the D'Rays, they'll accept homophobes, then again, they'll take anyone who can pitch better than AA level.

[ April 28, 2003, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Mike T. ]

Agreed. The silence reinforces the prejudice. frown

You know, Gracie was my hero growing up, and he comes through again. That's a stand-up guy, right there (also, last I heard, votes Republican).

For what it's worth, two retired players (one baseball, one football) have given us some "dood" news. Rob Dibble and Sean Salisbury have both spoken, on the "Dan Patrick Radio Show," about having played with gay teammates who were not out to the public but were out to their teammates & the teams had no problems regarding it. To paraphrase what Dibble said: on a team, there are a lot of reasons to fight/argue with each other but their homosexuality wasn't one of the reasons. He did say that a deeply religious team member had difficulties with having a gay teammate but that he (the religious one) offered his opinion once and once only & that he and the gay player then spoke only about baseball.

~Adam

I'd heard Rob Dibble say that before--although I'd gotten the impression that the player was only out to some teammates, rather than the whole team. I've always wondered why we assume that someone's closeted, simply because it's not reported by the media. Mike Timlin played with a teammate he knew was gay, as well. GfG, as far as supportive people, a number of people in baseball have made pro-gay remarks including Bobby Valentine, Jeff Bagwell, David Cone...

That comes down to that whole discussion we've had a lot about what constitutes being "openly" gay and what constitutes being "out," and whether there's a difference between those in the public eye (athletes, actors, politicians) and the rest of us.

To me, a professional athlete who is gay but it's only known to teammates and friends and the like is only "openly gay" to them. To the rest of the world, he's in the closet.

Rockies say Jones' statement is \"unfortunate\"

Here's the complete statement from the Rockies' website:

High comedy. I love that reply by the Rockies. That's just genius.

>>"As an organization and as a part of this community, we are committed to providing an environment for our employees and fans that is free of discrimination and prejudice regardless of race, color, sex, religion, national orientation, age, disability, or status as a veteran," team president Keli McGregor said in the statement.<<

That's wonderful news for gays, I suppose, especially if that gay person happens to be of a different race, female, buddhist, from Rumania, really old, paraplegic, or fought in Korea. What PR person allowed Mr. McGregor to release this statement without realizing it doesn't address sexual orientation?

At least I got my morning laugh.

It's funny, I had always figured Todd Jones to be gay, kind of in that "stand in the dark recesses of a leather bar" kind of way. He has that Rod Beck thing going on, a very popular look in some places... As for Mark Grace, it's very nice to have another ally. I live in AZ, and he's just so well liked and it's easy to see why. As for his one out of six or seven number, I'm pretty sure that refers to the number of straight guys who, if stranded on a desert island with Ken Caminiti, would jump his bones.



Bill K.

I am listening to Jim Rome's radio show as I type this, and he is just absolutely blasting the hell out of Todd Jones. I have my differences with Rome at times. But, he has hit on every relevant point that we probably all are thinking.

I just e-mailed Todd Jones. He should worry more about his 6.35 E.R.A then about if he has a gay teammate. I encourage everyone to e-mail him.

Rome is talking to Philadelphia Manager Larry Bowa. I am paraphrasing Bowa. But, Bowa essentially stated that he could care less what someone does in his private life as long as he is an upstanding citizen, whom is contributing to the success of his team. If one of his Phillies players made one of these types of comments, Bowa said that he would definitely have a one-on-one conference with him. He said he would tell his player that his comments were dumb and narrow-minded. It sounds to me like Larry Bowa just wants to win; He doesn't have patience for this Todd Jones homophobic crap! That's the way it should be.

I think I detect a possible editing scar--I wonder if the statement was supposed to be ...national origin, sexual orientation...

Whoever heard of someone having a national orientation?

I think national orientation is another way of saying nationality. I don't think its an error. I sent the Rockies this email today:

Or maybe Bowa is just setting the stage for one of his players to come out!!!! (Sorry, I read the New York Post a lot.)

Mark Grace's comments:

Mark Grace, a 38-year-old first baseman for the Arizona Diamondbacks, said most ballplayers are less threatened by the idea of a gay teammate. 'I've played for 16 years, and I'm sure I've had homosexual teammates that I didn't know about,' he said. 'If one out of six or seven men are homosexual - do the math.'

Any problem, Grace said, would manifest itself not so much in the field but in the locker room and in the showers - where, coincidentally, the majority of 'Take Me Out' takes place.

'I think the perception in the clubhouse would be one of, for lack of a better word - fear,' Grace said. 'Fear that they'd be stared at or (that a gay player might fall) in love with them. But I think if you're intelligent at all, you'd understand that homosexuals are just like us. They don't think everybody's attractive. Just because this guy's homosexual doesn't mean he's attracted to me.'

I wrote to the Rockies as well, with the following:

Looks like somebody has sensitized him to the issue -- or maybe he's just not a moralist. I checked to see if Doug Glanville is still playing, he's working for Texas now. Regardless, there are presumably enough gay ballplayers to go around, and from Adam's comment above, they're not so deeply closeted any more.

Maybe it's just that the Rockies organization is particularly INsensitive to the matter.

[ April 30, 2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

Rome's show today was great. He went on at length (as he usually does) about how being gay should not make any difference to anyone, including a ballplayer. He mocked redneck athletes who would assume that any gay teammate would desire them or force gay sex upon them. And he strongly agreed with a caller who compared Jones' remarks to those made about blacks in the 40's and 50's.

He also plugged Billy Bean who will be in the jungle tomorrow.

Good job Romey.

Copied from Jones' opinion:

He went on to say that "Because if (the team) thinks for one minute he's disrupting the clubhouse -- if he doesn't hit 50 homers or win 20 games -- they're not going to put up with that."

- - - - -

Will someone explain this sentiment to me? I don't understand what he's referring to, or what he's trying to say.

It means that if a gay player is intentionally injured by his teammates, it'll be his own damn fault.

Sexual orientation has been added to the statement on the Rockies website.

Well good for them. My little note read,


Dear Mr McGregor:

Your official statement in response to Todd Jones' homophobic comments makes it very clear that the Rockies organization has no respect for its gay players, employees or fans.

The non-discrimination policy which you quote contains no reference to "sexual orientation", so is irrelevant to the matter at hand. Unless you meant to point out that the Rockies' policy _permits_ discrimination against players, employees and fans based on their sexuality. (Rest assured, by the way, that there ARE homosexual ballplayers on your roster.)

Your press release closes by stating that the ballclub "is committed to providing a work environment that is free from unlawful discrimination," a further hedge to avoid taking responsibility for the issue unless forced to by law.

I'm reminded of a child throwing a tantrum. A shabby, insulting performance indeed, Mr McGregor.

Regards,

Todd Jones won't be coming out any time soon if he feels the athlete has to have 50 home runs or 20 wins. Rigth now, 4/30/03, t. jones has in 11.1 innings given up 11 runs, 0-2 in save opportunities, a 6.35 era, and has given up an on base percentage of .370. Not very good if he wants to stay in the game, especially after bringing bad news and bad karma to a ball club.
It is refreshing to see more and more hig level baseball people and high profile players voicing positive messages reguarding the inclusion of gay men in professional sports. We should thank t. jones for his remarks as the backlash against him has done more for our cause than anything we ourselves could do!

Anti-gay discrimination is illegal in Denver, where the Rockies are based, so when they originally said "any other legal basis" that was included. Still, it's nice to see they changed it.

They added sexual orientation, but I guess you were right about actually intending national orientation, though origin is certainly the more familiar phrase. National orientation makes me think of everyone facing Mecca at certain times of day or everyone in Australia being upside down.

Rob Neyer of espn.com: Punishing Jones is not the answer

Eminently sensible, and how often do you see Nat Hentoff quoted by a sports columnist?

Why am I not surprised that Neyer plays in a different intellectual league than other sportswriters, as evidenced by the Hentoff quote?

Neyer's discussion board is quite intellectual as well. It must be tighly moderated. wink I agree with Neyer that the organization shouldn't punish Jones.

Anyway, here's the Rockies statement on the matter. And from this morning's Denver Post: "The biggest reaction we have heard is that the quote from Todd Jones is exactly the kind of thing that Shane Mungitt would say." - Julianna Hannett, publicist for "Take Me Out", on the character modeled after John Rocker

[ May 01, 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

did you see this guys picture? talk about offensive..... i thought that style went out in the 70's... guess not.

I guess this topic has ceased to be interesting for many, but here's a generally stupid column by a generally doltish Denver Post columnist, basically doing a great job of not getting why people would be upset by Jones' comments, blatantly misrepresenting what Jones said, and chalking the whole thing up to "leave him alone, he's insecure and naturally freaked out about a homosexual seeing him naked, that's all."

Kizla: Male ego is fueling this fire

Oh, by the way, he mentions that Mike Hampton tried to goad him into a fight last season by repeatedly calling him a faggot or queer or some other term that's too offensive to print in a family paper but not too offensive to be roundly condemned for...or something.

Kizla, never shy about taking a stand, needs to do better than this weasly excuse for a column.

His rationale is lame. It's the "boys' locker room" mentality. I bet a lot sportswriters feel that way, or worse. I don't think too many writers can discuss the issues involved in a rational way.

Maybe not, but here's one who has: Barry Rozner of the Daily Herald in Chicago's northwest suburbs.
Issue of gay ballplayers should be a non-issue

Besides the should-be-obvious points and a Billy Bean quote, he mentions the Grace angle:
And this:


[ May 08, 2003, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: danimal ]

Interesting allegation regarding Mr. Grace.

No one "more proud to be a heterosexual"? No one "who has enjoyed it more"? What? Did I miss Gracie making out with a Maxim model in the D-Backs dugout? It's not like he's done anything for us to mistake him for Johnny Depp starring as "Don Juan DeMarco."

I love Gracie. And I've got the feeling that most people in the Big Leagues do too. But why the insecure need from the sportswriter to declare (and vouch for) Gracie's hetero bona fides as part of the denunciation of Mr. Jones? I thought that part of the article was more than a little condescending.

Think the writer's a Sox fan making a dig at the Cubs, but my guess is Grace was a bit of a womanizer in his Chicago days and just managed to avoid any blue-dress-and-cigars-with-interns type publicity for it. wink

Actually, I think Rozner was just anticipating a "Yeah, he just sez dat 'cuz he's one o' dem too" reaction from the type of yahoos who agree with Jones. I'm sure he's encountered a few.

Guys shower together by Todd Jones - Sporting News, 5/7/03

Todd Jones: "I'm not a gay hater. I couldn't care less if you're gay."

If he couldn't care less, then why is he saying "I wouldn't want a gay guy being around me."

Todd Jones: "Guys shower together; there are no dividers. Guys go in, do their thing, get clean and get out. They don't want to think about another guy."

His logic makes no sense. If guys go in, do their thing and get out, what does it matter if the guy standing next to you is gay? Do gay guys do something special when they take a shower?

And as for the lack of dividers, the gym I go to (YMCA) has no dividers in the showers and lots of gay guys. The straight guys at the gym have to shower with gay guys all the time. They're not afraid. What are baseball players afraid of?

Grow up Todd Jones!

Thanks for the providing the link, Redsoxbreath.

From the quotes in the article, it's obvious to me that Mr. Jones gets "it". He is not coming from the perspective of the "narrow-minded red neck" baseball player that has no clue about gay men or the "political correct" morality that will ensure his public persecution.

In other words, Todd Jones is not naive. He is simply ignorant.

Mr. Jones fails to realize that the locker room belongs to gay baseball players just as much as it belongs to straight baseball players. In fact, the locker room belongs to the individual and the collective of the baseball team. It does not "belong" to anyone. It is the private and public domain of each/all of the ballplayers. Mr. Jones does not seem to understand this subtlety.

As a gay athlete, I feel that I understand this dynamic better than most.

It is rare that a straight man could understand the emotional and physical maturity required to behave respectfully and graciously in an environment that would otherwise encourage us to pursue our lesser instincts.

Given the opportunity, if straight men had the opportunity to share the locker room with all the best looking women, most would be conflicted, and feel uncomfortable at making the smallest advance. But as they were soaping up their supple bodies, they too would come to understand the gay athlete's perspective.

And at that point they would come to some type of maturity. Hopefully.

It's this type of maturity that Mr. Jones is lacking. Pure and simple, Todd Jones is not homophobic per se. He's something far less honorable: he's a self-centered, ignorant human that cannot see or feel outside his own skin.

As such, he deserves our sympathy ... and our continued derision.

Here's the e-mail I just sent to not-so-hot Toddy after reading his column:

How the hell does this guy rate a column anyway?

[ May 09, 2003, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

As Barney Frank said: "We have ALWAYS showered with you. Do you think we have ourselves dry-cleaned?"

Ok... I wrote the below letter to Mr. Jones. I know some don't think hiw comments were a big deal. I sort of think along the same lines. However, there was one statement that really got to me, that was when he said that "a athelete who's gay should not walk around proud." That got me thinking...just who did he think he was. So, I gathered my thoughts and sent this email to him. IT's not to scathing, just my thoughts and as you all know I do tend to have them... so read and contemplate. Gee, I hope Mr. Jones doesn't get upset. He seems to be so delicate in these matters.... (his word, not mine)... Ok, the letter
_________________________________________________
Mr. Jones,

I read your comments you said to the Denver Post reporter, the Rockies’ web site and the Sporting News. It’s too bad that a player such as yourself has such a perspective on his fellow human beings. Being a baseball fan all my life, it’s disturbing to know such degrading thoughts run through a player's head.

You said that a gay athlete shouldn't be proud, but you didn't give any reason why they shouldn't be proud. I can't imagine why anyone would think someone else should not be proud of themselves and their being. What kind of logic or value system produces such a thought?

Yet, you say you don't have anything against gay people but you don't want to be around any of them. You don’t see a contradiction in that statement? I wonder what you say when you really don’t like someone.

Now, exactly how delicate are you guys in the clubhouse? What do you think a gay player is going to do in the clubhouse? I guess the more pertinent question is what exactly are you doing in the clubhouse that is so delicate that the presence of a player who is gay would be so disrupting to you? After all, as you say, you're only speaking for yourself and there surely there are players who would have no problem with the situation. So, what gets you so disturbed? What else disturbs you? Maybe you need to find a less delicate job. Oh, that's right, you're in the Major Leagues and there's a lot on the line when you're out there pitching. Guess what buddy, there are a whole slew of us who work everyday with a lot more on the line than winning a baseball game and we work and sometimes even shower with men and women who are gay. Matter of fact, if you take the generally accepted, though arguable, 10% of any population, there are roughly 15,000+ soliders, saliors and Marines of the 150,000+ who are gay men and women. 15,000+ who are wearing a uniform and putting their lives on the line for your and my freedom in a hostile land, in unbearable conditions and they make a whole lot less money than any major leaguer with an ERA of 8.64. So, when you start talking about gay men and how they should not have pride in themselves, I put to you Sir, that is you who should reevaluate what exactly you're proud of when it comes to pride in self. For, if you think for any fraction of a second that the physical sex act with a woman is the sole construct of a man, I can tell you Sir, you're not even close to being a man.

About those showers. Now, exactly what do you guys do when as you say, "go in, do their thing, get clean and get out." Just what "thing" are you "doing" that would be so disruptive for you if a player whois gay was showering with you. Do you really think a major league baseball player who’s gay is going to jeopardize his position on the team by behaving in any unacceptable manner? In all the showers you’ve taken with other guys, have you ever encounter such a thing? Maybe you have but I doubt it was in the clubhouse shower. If I am not mistaken, you guys get paid a decent salary and if any player wants to have fun with another teammate (good lord, two gay guys on one team!!) or anyone else for that matter, I’d think said player would have the means to have a place of his own. Get a grip buddy.

Tired of being politically correct or just tired of being a decent human being? What’s politically correct about being decent to your fellow human being? Maybe the rest of us who are not as you described, a " Neanderthal, redneck baseball player" are tired of being spoken about in degrading manner, regulated by law or social decree to a level of a lessen humanity, and in the most ultimate of occasions, killed as if life is only for the "majority." Majority rules, you say. Well, while the majority may rule, being the majority does not grant any special claim on being in the right. Treatment of all, equally and the affordability of opportunity for all as our forefathers and every person who’s come to this land envisioned will never be destroyed or negated but always will be abused by the "majority" thought or action. Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, that’s what it’s all about, did you forget? I guess your remarks are a "big deal", the difference being that this "big deal" isn’t "your" big deal. On second thought, maybe it is…..NOW.

Hold the Rockies and the Sporting News responsible for you remarks, never. But, guess what, like the rest of us working stiffs, you’ve got a paycheck to earn and someone writes that paycheck. If your employer wants to be known as an organization which is associated with people of your thought, it is a reflection on the organization itself. If it’s serious enough and when it starts affecting the bottom line, then like any organization, they’re free to take the action needed to rectify the situation. Responsible….NO… Accountable….. YES.

It’s good that you stand behind your comments 100%, a man is expected to stand by his word. A bigger man would know when to rethink and improve his thoughts and words. I sense a lot of room for both to happen.


Good Luck to you,

SATX Buddy…


P.S. - You might want to reconsider that hairy thing you got going on your upper lip. Any man who doesn’t want any gay men around him, especially in the lockerroom, might not want to wear a mustache that makes him look like the Redneck Bubba Reject from the Village People. All you need is for someone to slap a pair of leather chaps and harness on you and whola, you got Mr. Leatherman 2003. …. Geeezzzzz .

cc: Outsports.com

You got him good, satxbuddy1.

The logic is just not there; but, sports being an arena that is governed by the animal/physical relationship between human beings, LGBTs have always been bullied out.

Now that we're of the financial, emotional, and psychological status to fight in the same PHYSICALLY DEMANDING arenas that we were told were "off limits" to us just because we loved our gender as sexual partners, the rules (naturally) are changing and we are told that we are unwanted, a burden, unworthy of respect, and disgusting...among other derogatory characteristics.

This is what bullies, not men and women presiding over national sports events deserving of respect, do.

I look forward to a day in our futures when all LGBT people employ and leverage use this truth (of human beings as animal beings) in their daily lives, and are in a position to teach it to the (LGBT) youth coming after us.

It is only then that an athlete, regardless of orientation and mannerisms, can compete equally and equitably on a professional team, with fellow teammates.

We LGBTs, when talented as such, have ALWAYS been proficient in sports.

It's just that, in these times, we are getting the "Hitler treatment" (referring to Hitler's refusal to greet Jesse Owens as a victor of his track event).

It is WE that must look beyond this insecurity, THINLY covered with hateful money, bravado, loud voicing, and discriminatory social contracts that seek to keep American sports a bastion of bankrolled violence against qualified, eager LGBT athletes.

Thanks again, satxbuddy1, for your honest letter, courageously sent. wink

- Blue

[ May 12, 2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]