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sportinlife
As the great GOP god Ronald Reagan might say "Here we go again." The USA and Europe are convinced that "Iran Can't Block Hormuz" at the risk of shooting itself in the foot. It's own exports would be stopped and it's primary customers and allies would be royally pissed.

The problem is that terrorist regimes have a history of shooting themselves in the foot when their backs are pressed agains the wall.

Should sanctions become an existential threat, the cards are shuffled.

Think what Benjamin Netanyahu would do under a perceived existential threat. Look at what the Syrian regime under Bashar Al-Assad is doing to counter an existential threat. Putin in Russia is no less vindictive but may be curbed by popular opposition, so far.

The Obama administration supposedly has planned the military response to any attempt by Iran to disrupt the flow of black heroin from the oil states, but if they have assumed that the Iranian mullahs will act sensibly when faced with self-destruction...well let's pray they are right. They certainly did not in the Iran-Iraq War.

Meanwhile we should be asking ourselves whether our values, our financial interests or our political interests are driving the sanctions against Iran. The Obama administration would make a case for all three. Let us hope.
Bill W
re your second-to-last post -- I suppose he said/meant Khrushchev (who was the Soviet premier at the time), and also, I don't know who I would believe less, Chris Matthews or Khrushchev.
sportinlife
QUOTE(Bill W @ Jan 5 2012, 10:44 AM) *
re your second-to-last post
Corrected. Thank you.
sportinlife
Someone certainly seems to want to start a war between the USA and Iran in a hurry. And since it is hardly in our interest - politically or economically - it has to be some other nation. What a hilarious nightmare scenario.

Looks like we may rush to war - once again - to protect Israel. And the hurry is that Benjamin Netanyahu has realized that his attempts to defeat Obama are not looking good; and that, even if he succeeded, the rightwing isolationists in the Republican party will force their candidate to either pull out of the fight between Israel and Iran for economic reasons (re: Ron Paul or Mitt Romney) or bungle the bombing of Iran so badly that the entire region will ignite, both figuratively and literally (Rick Perry or Newt Gingrich). Santorum would just re-ban gays.

Obama's already shown his chutzpah by killing Ossama bin Laden in nuclear-powered Pakistan without causing a serious militant backlash from the ISI...so far; but the 2008 financial crisis was just a warm-up Barry.

The sweet spot for Obama's opponents is that this can only end badly for him, oh, and maybe for the world.

So this election year is shaping up as a very nice little Supra-Mayan calamity; party like it's twenty-twelve.

What better way to get rid of Obama than to back him into a suicidal corner in Iran? The wolves are baying from all directions for a WWIII scenario. The only thing missing is the direct involvement of Russia and China. The collapse of our economy will hit China at the same time as rising oil prices due to another war in the Middle East; and Putin will see an opportunity to silence his human rights critics with an economic boost for Russian oil.
sportinlife
From an interview with "an expert on middle east politics...Dilshod Achilov is a professor of political science at East Tennessee State University, in Johnson City, Tennessee." On the likely result of an Israeli bombing of an Iranian nuclear plant:
QUOTE
It would be disastrous! Iran is a totally different story: it is comparable neither to Iraq nor Syria. The immediate fallouts, to name a few, would be: global oil prices would skyrocket and threaten the recovery of the global financial crisis; the U.S. would certainly be dragged into the conflict causing a wider military confrontation in the Middle East; Iran could activate Hezbollah to mobilize against Israel and open a new front in the Levant; Iran would most likely attack oil tankers passing through the Strait of Hormuz (where 30 percent of world’s oil shipments go through annually), an act which could prompt the United Arab Emirates, Oman, Qatar and Saudi Arabia to retaliate against Iran.
On the control of Israel's intelligence apparatus:
QUOTE
The Mossad is expected to report directly to the incumbent Prime Minister of Israel. On security issues, the relationship between IDF, Mossad and the executive political power (Prime Minister, President and Defense Minister) is intertwined.
Taken together these statements, if true, suggest the USA has little control over what will happen between Israel and Iran. And that the bombast of the presidential candidates in either party are, for the most, part irrelevant compared to the decisions of Benjamin Netanyahu. Also from the article:
QUOTE
The French newspaper Le Figaro recently alleged that Israel’s intelligence agency, Mossad, is recruiting Iranian Kurds in Iraq to subvert Tehran’s nuclear program. They also suggested that Israel is behind the recent murders of Iranian nuclear scientists.
It appears that our own media are ignoring the situation while we obsess about the presidential race. It is often said that it is what you don't know that can hurt you.
sportinlife
Israeli intelligence has quite rightly concluded, along with academicians world-wide, that Iran's retaliation threats against an Israeli first strike are a bluff - thus setting the stage for an imminent attack.

The only thing restraining such a military confrontation, currently, is the adamant opposition by the USA. But "existential threats" once perceived will override any financial threat.

However the Israeli intelligence may not be counting on collusion between Arab states on its border and the Iranians in any possible retaliation due to such a confrontation, nor the long drawn-out consequences with or without USA support for Israel.

The USA is posing an "existential threat" to the military regime in Egypt and the Al-Assad regime in Syria. Military force against Al-Assad has been ruled out and the Egyptian military seems unwilling to give up immunity and independence from civilian fiat regardless of the result of any elections.

Both regimes have every motivation for a senseless escalation of activity against Israel as a distraction from their own problems. It is one of the few countries in the world for which there is little daylight between the ruling authoritarians and the most nationalistic opposition. Israeli intelligence may suffer from the same short-sightedness and glassy-eyed predictions about the future as our own, when we assumed Iraq would end quickly.
sportinlife
It now appears that USA politics may be driving the likelihood of an Israeli strike against Iran, with all of the unpredictable consequences that may or may not transpire, driven by the positions of the three likeliest winners of the coming presidential election:
QUOTE
“This is, of course, President Obama’s greatest failing, from a foreign policy standpoint, which is he recognized the gravest threat that America and the world faced as — and faced was a nuclear Iran and he did not do what was necessary to get Iran to be dissuaded from their nuclear folly,” Republican front-runner Mitt Romney said in November.

The former Massachusetts governor has said he would support military action “if all else fails.”

“It is unacceptable for Iran to have a nuclear weapon. We will not allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon,” he said.

Former House speaker Newt Gingrich supports “a maximum covert operation to block and disrupt the Iranian nuclear program” and “breaking the regime and bringing it down,” but agreed with Romney that he would also support military action if needed.
Obama, Romney and Gingrich have all offered default encouragement for such an attack. The American public is probably closer to the views of Ron Paul/Dennis Kucinich if the most recent poll is to be believed. But public opiinion against continuation of Bush's Iraq War did not stop it, nor has opinion against Obama's Afghanistan War stopped that. Wars are easy for presidents to start or continue. Now Bibi Netanyahu will decide on our war.
TXEX97
QUOTE(sportinlife @ Feb 4 2012, 01:24 PM) *

Now Bibi Netanyahu will decide on our war.


The tail wagging the dog.
sportinlife
Another consideration: if Israel attacks Iran and Iranian-trained suicide bombers are able to infiltrate through Israel's borders with all more-or-less hostile neighbors, will Israel intern its Arab population as the USA interned the Japanese?

How long will Israel be able to avoid the consequences of the reckless behavior of the Benjamin Netanyah-Ehud Barak Axis?

Will Israeli intelligence be able to convince them in time that thier political decision is likely a very unwise one?

Could Israel bring Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's empty threats of annihilation to fruition through its on actions?

Netanyahu is not thinking but calculating. Both he and Barak believe they know USA politics and have calculated that they can not lose by claiming an existential threat from a loud-mouth little man who was himself playing politics when he suggested Israel should be "wiped off the map".

It should be clear that this war would not be about existence of anything other than the power of three weak men and a few megalomaniacal mullahs. The last time an Israeli administration defied USA interests was during the aftermath of the Suez Crisis. Eisenhower called for sanctions against Israel; it will not matter which party is in power during a conflict.
Good Hands
QUOTE(sportinlife @ Mar 30 2012, 01:14 AM) *

Another consideration: if Israel attacks Iran and Iranian-trained suicide bombers are able to infiltrate through Israel's borders with all more-or-less hostile neighbors, will Israel intern its Arab population as the USA interned the Japanese?

How long will Israel be able to avoid the consequences of the reckless behavior of the Benjamin Netanyah-Ehud Barak Axis?

Will Israeli intelligence be able to convince them in time that thier political decision is likely a very unwise one?

Could Israel bring Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's empty threats of annihilation to fruition through its on actions?

Netanyahu is not thinking but calculating. Both he and Barak believe they know USA politics and have calculated that they can not lose by claiming an existential threat from a loud-mouth little man who was himself playing politics when he suggested Israel should be "wiped off the map".

It should be clear that this war would not be about existence of anything other than the power of three weak men and a few megalomaniacal mullahs. The last time an Israeli administration defied USA interests was during the aftermath of the Suez Crisis. Eisenhower called for sanctions against Israel; it will not matter which party is in power during a conflict.

What has Israel done in the past when attacked by/at war with Arab countries? Has Israel interred its Arab population? Don't seem to recall that. Should have been camps set up in 1948. And reused again in 1973, at least. Were there?

Do recall that Israel counts as citizens approximately 1 million Arabs, out of a total population of approximately 7 million. These would be Arabs living in Israel proper...not on the West Bank.

"Loud mouth little man"...change that to loud mouth little corporal and it could have been written in 1932. Of course, he couldn't mean it. Of course he's playing politics, and only politics...he's just talking to get attention, not because he actually means what he says. Of course it'd never happen. Because, after all, the world would not stand by while Jews were attacked and killed, especially Israeli Jews, since Israel is such an accepted part of its own neighborhood. Of course he's nothing but a politician.....his own people have seen the liberating role and enlightened way he's led his country. No Iranians have been oppressed during his watch...under his authority. Freedom and justice reign...just look at Iran, take a poll of the people and you'll have those views confirmed sure as shooting.

How do you know they're empty threats? What is your authoritative information to declare them empty? Is it just words and playing politics Iran is doing with Hezballah? No actions...no money...no materiel...no actual support? And while supporting Hezballah does not mean that Iran would seek to wipe Israel off the map...such support for a group that declares that to be its intention is more than just empty.

What is the "reckless behavior"? They have talked...what's the behavior?

Btw wonderful use of "Axis"...using a card from Amadinejad's own deck.

Normally don't respond to these postings, because the agenda is so blatant you could be at the UN. But this one was too much. And if these misrepresentations and slick distortions are not challenged at some point, then they become accepted. If you trust Amadinejad (and those behind him) as far as you can throw him, you're a better man than I, Gunga Din.
sportinlife
QUOTE(Good Hands @ Apr 7 2012, 11:46 AM) *
What has Israel done in the past when attacked by/at war with Arab countries? Has Israel interred its Arab population? Don't seem to recall that. Should have been camps set up in 1948. And reused again in 1973, at least. Were there?
The occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza are the rough equivalents. The USA had not "interned" ethnic minorities in significant numbers before WWII, unless you consider the reservations for Native Americans.
QUOTE(Good Hands @ Apr 7 2012, 11:46 AM) *
"Loud mouth little man"...change that to loud mouth little corporal and it could have been written in 1932.
The Germans were the technological war machine equivalent of any nation in the world at the beginning of WWII. Iran is nowhere near the equivalent of Israel and they know it. That is why they are seeking nuclear weapons as Israel has had for years. In my opinion there is no good reason to believe that Iran will risk extinction by attacking Israel even if Iran does acquire nuclear weapons. The disastrous war with Saddam Hussein's Iraq is a lesson the politicians and religious tyrants have learned.
QUOTE(Good Hands @ Apr 7 2012, 11:46 AM) *
What is the "reckless behavior"? They have talked...what's the behavior? And if these misrepresentations and slick distortions are not challenged at some point, then they become accepted. If you trust Amadinejad (and those behind him) as far as you can throw him, you're a better man than I, Gunga Din.
I don't "trust Ajmadinejad" any more than you do.

I do trust that they will have to deal with reality just as all people and nations do. The reality is that he and the religious authorities would either have to accept a Cold War status of Mutual Assured Destruction with a nuclear Israel or risk annihilation. I don't trust that these people are not crazy and might miscalculate and self-destruct.
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