I will start this thread to start all talk on the last debate. What I want to hear from Kerry is to come out swinging on the domestic front. I want to hear him pound away about the huge spike in oil, and gas prices. I would like him too point out the big rise in heating oil costs that people are going to have to pay this winter, especially back east. Analysts say people should expect to pay about $400 more than they did last winter for their heat. Kerry also needs to bring up gas prices, and the effect on consumers and their spending,/economy, as well as the need to invest in alternative fuel sources NOW, and the fact that little or nothing has been done the past 4 years. Same on the health care front. Little to nothing been done the past 4 years, and at every opportunity to lower drug costs, this administration has run the other way..

The last thing I would like to hear from Kerry is a better reply to the "L" label the Repugs. like too keep throwing at him. So what???? Give them the Howard Dean reply John!! If having a balanced budget is liberal, so be it!! He doesn't have to come out and totally embrace the label, but nor should he run from it. If Shrub insists that Kerry is to liberal, then point out this administration is far to extreme for America. And point out the many reasons why! I look forward to this final debate.

In the first two debates, it seemed Bush was trying to solidify his base while Kerry seemed to be speaking more to that weird group of undecided voters (just what are they hoping to hear at this point that the candidates haven't been saying all along??) I wonder if the third debate will be a continuation of that or if we'll see a bit of a role reversal, with Kerry speaking more his core voters (proud liberals) and Bush trying to reach to the undecideds.

~Adam

I would hate to see Kerry totally run away from the Liberal tag. Kerry, if called a liberal, needs to admit it but he should only do so in a way that frames the alternative in an even more negative light: "Yes, I am a Liberal and I'll tell you what that means. It means accepting people who are different from me, of truly being under a big tent where all people are valued and that is welcoming all those who believe in the strength of the American dream. It means not allowing government to invade and intrude and legislate upon the most private aspects of our personal lives and infringing on our basic human liberties. It means not having callous indifference to the sick, the elderly and the young of our country. It means not wearing compassion on one's sleeve while denying millions the benefit of a just society. It means not being a credit card conservative who is going to mortgage the future of my children and grandchildren just to favor the smallest minority of our highest wage earners. Most of all, it means not being cynical, rather, it means being hopeful and having faith in the goodness of other Americans whose power and strength show in unity, not in the corrosively divisive atmosphere that has beset this country under this administration."

Aquaman. Well said!! I couldn't agree with you more!

By the way, I assume the format is like debate # 1, right, where they are standing behind pedastals? I am sure Shrub will have his transceiver going so Karl can preach to him!

Some other points I would like to hear Kerry bring up tonight. I think he will score huge if he "humanizes" what people are going through right now with relation to the economy and health care. Put a name to it. Bring up people you have spoken with all across America. So and so, in Palooka, Kentucky for example, who lost his job, was laid off, and is struggling to feed his family, or so and so in Minneapolis, who lost her health care, and has now no way to care for her 3 kids. I think this will go along way with voters. It shows you are in touch with the "average" American. I want him also to attack Shrub on the fact they are doing everything in their power to keep from lowering the costs of medications by not allowing lower costs meds from Canada, and point out again, the so called "Medicare reform" bill which passed or should I say was shoved through, is nothing more than a sham, which was nothing more than a give away to drug companies, and insurance companies. I think Kerry will do really well tonight, again.

[ October 13, 2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: puckman1 ]

Sorry to veer off topic...

The media keeps saying this debate may be the last time the candidates have "face-to-face" time with a national audience before the election. I was wondering if either of the candidates will do one of those 30-minute infomercial type of media buys in the days before the election. I believe Reagan started that in '80 or '84, and it's been done a few times since then. Then I got to thinking, since the campaigns are so focused on the swing states, a nation-wide media buy might not be on their agenda. I wonder if they would do an infomercial only in the swing states?

Okay, back on topic... I'm anxious to see tonight's debate, but I'm also nervous that if it's seen as a draw like the 2nd debate, Bush will win the election. We can't count on Bush to come across as a fumbling mumbling fool like the first one, so Kerry's got to have a plan to knock it out of the park.

I have to wonder about the ability of these debates to alter a voter's views. Poll numbers have remained steady, even among those supposedly undecided voters, over the course of the first two presidential debates; in fact, the polls have been fairly steady since the conventions.

More and more, I think these debates just allow people to affirm their pre-debate opinions and solidify their belief in their own candidate, as well as their dislike of their candidate's opponent.

~Adam

So i was down at the ASU campus yesterday and they are all setting up their "big tents"....There were way too many folks with signs but i heard Tucker speaking.... didnt see the hick-ho-clinton-trash-thrower though.

MSNBC seems to go after the rowdy students as they set up right infront of the student union and such.

Just sort of interesting to see how they had constucted double lined fences around the debate hall... shut all the roads down.. etc etc etc...

I was just schocked when announcing to security... yes i am PF.. i need to check out that hall. I thought that at least by now i'd have name recognition. Well then i said something about dallas sucks and parcells swallows.. didnt go over well.

You mean they didn't shoot to kill on sight? OH THE HORROR!

Adam, I agree with what you said. I find it hard to believe that there can still be such a thing as undecided voters out there, but I guess there are. I did hear some really good news last night. I was watching MSNBC and they reported that supposedly that a majority of "swing voters" are leaning more towards Kerry. Right on!

Who saw it as a "draw" other than the pundits and Republicans? Both insta-polls and polls several days after showed Kerry won the debate.

Yeah, but the networks spun it as a tie because Kerry's lead in most of the polls was within their "margin of error"

There was no doubt that the 2nd debate's format was very friendly to Bush. Bush usually does worse in the more formal debate set-ups. I hope I don't have to bite my tongue for saying that....

You won't so don't worry. Kerry is absolutely going to be on message, and Bush will do what he does best...namely..stutter stammar, and make peculiar facial adjustments.

Sadly, 55% of Americans sympathize with Charlie from Flowers for Algernon. The weak-minded get all squishy and compassionate when it comes to bumbling mental midgets. They will vote for him out of this sick sympathy.

And don't forget he also seems to be extremely angry about having to do the debates; it's as though Bush can't beleive the American people aren't clamoring that he be re-elected by acclamation rather than have him face an opponent.

~Adam

Shrub: "Uh, I don't think I ever said that about Osama Bin Laden."

I fully expect the clip to run immediately after the debate showing him saying exactly what Kerry claimed.

March 13, 2002

Q But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.

John Kerry is a member of the YOOOOO-nited States Senate.

Does Shrub order EYE-talian dressing on his salad too?

Schieffer to Bush: "Is homosexuality a choice"??
Reply, "I don't know Bob, you know I just don't know". Telling really. You don't know much of anything.

Kerry is firing on all cylinders now. Bush's attempts at humor are just plain awful!

I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but someone is feeding Bush answers. It appears to me that it started during the abortion question. Long pauses, almost as if he is collecting info in his mind, then spitting out an answer almost as if he doesn't know what he is saying when he is speaking it.

Bush is more aggressive tonight, but his attempts at humor make him look as though he is taking this whole thing less seriously than Kerry. I also believe he is spewing out just plain falsities as fact. Sadly, some people will believe what he is saying.

Bush has actually been very good tonight, but he just majorly f**ked up by not directly answering Schieffer's Roe v. Wade question.

Now Kerry is nailing him on No Child Left Behind. This may be the difference of this debate.

Nope, he didn't asnwer that question, nor did he asnwer the question about affirmative action, and the list goes on. What a buffoon! Kerry is blowing him out of the water, frequently. Much much more detailed, informed, introspective answers.

MSNBC says Kerry won: 77%-26%.

Nope. Ike did it in 1952. Probably where the Geezer's handlers got the idea in the first place.

Big conspiracy theory in the blogosphere - Bush has had a stroke because his mouth is supposedly sagging, and that is why his speech is slurred.

Now rumors run rampant in cyberspace, but I certainly have noticed his speech in all three debates, and can't help wonder if something has happened.

My hunch is that this debate will be considered widely in the media as a draw. Bush has done an outstanding job of differientiating himself from Kerry. Bush pushed Kerry soooooooo left, and Kerry himself took the most liberal stances possible in his questions.

To his performance, Bush was very confident, but he lacked depth in his responses. His answer to Schieffer's last question was brilliant. "Love at first sight."

Kerry's comment re: marrying up sounded kinda like a backhanded compliment to the Bush's. The shot of Theresa in the audience was not good - total ice princess (although I love her). Was that Michael J. Fox next to her?

Anyway, closing comments:
Kerry - I fought a war, I will never let another country veto our military action, I'm God-fearing, I have vision
Bush - I have vision, someone else wrote this, economic growth, armies of compassion (someone else wrote this), war on terror, freedom on the march

I have to say I think Kerry won again. I do think the second was more of a draw and we all know Kerry trounced Bush in the first. I feel good about it.

As a Kerry supporter, I don't feel as good about the debate as I have the others. Not because I feel Bush won, but because of the way Bush tried to characterize Kerry, as opposed to really providing solutions. I guess I don't have faith in the electorate to see through this sham of an administration.

All the Liberals DON'T GET IT. Mohammad Ali- in Zaire. Kerry was baited and reeled in - Last debate just to prove how phony he is and his beliefs. He fell for it all.

Yeh, right his Mother's dying words " Integrity, Integrity, Integrity" What a crock a S**T? It didn't play and it's gonna look worse on Monday morning when the truth hits. KERRY WILL SAY ANYTHING AT ANY TIME TO ANYONE FOR ONE MORE VOTE.

Loser, Loser, Loser.

My offer still stands- who here wants my Inaugral Ball invite for the Re-Election of W?

Kerry won the CBS quickpoll of "undecideds" 39%-25% for W. 36% thought it a tie. On an NBC interview of "undecideds," I saw that several women were saying they were now voting for Kerry. I thought he was a bit tepid at first, but he grew stronger as the debate wore on. Some of the best things he did were to emphasize his support of choice; his support of raising the minimum wage and its effects on WOMEN; his support of equal pay for women; his support of not screwing up Social Security with a privatization scheme; and his mentions of his faith (including those Bible quotes--go Kerry!) and the plight specifically of African-Americans and Latinos.

W was a bit more subdued than his cracked out performance last time, when he loped around and hollered like a mad dog, but it's plainly obvious that if he's not fed material, he's very thin on the facts. In fact, he's too emotional, way too emotional, to be president. Were he not rich and well-connected, he'd never have gotten as far as he has.

Eastside, I respect your opinion, but couldn't disagree more. Your candiate failed tonight. There were several questions, he flat out didn't even answer, now on Nov. 2nd, he must answer to the American people.

Send me your address. You'll get my W invite for January 20th. At least you'll get to see the WH. wink wink

Do we have to bring sham hetero dates, or do we simply get to watch the party from the back of the bus?

I was very disappointed in both candidates responses concerning the gay marriage and homosexual "choice" questions. No one really took a strong stance in favor of gay rights. Especially disappointing from Kerry.

Mixed feelings about this debate. Bush was again too cocky and his weak attempts at humor were just embarrassing. Kerry often tried to mix in responses from previous questions before getting to the current topic. Bush interrupted innapropriately at times, where Kerry should have objected, although he probably thought that Bush would make even more a fool of himself by doing just that!

Other than that, slight edge for Kerry IMHO but not as big a win as the first debate.

Now let's get down to business and get Kerry elected!

I have seen and been a guest (As a lunch guest w/ my Senator for the National Eagle Scout Association - J Ford; 1975 ; and once as a guest of Clinton and VP Gore at a reception on the lawn for technology types 1998) at the White House when we had a REAL President. I was very impressed (and VERY nervous both times).

Why would anyone want to go to see a fraud who they have NO respect for?

Was it just me or did it seem like Bush was 'lecturing to' rather than 'speaking with' the audience?

Rob

[ October 13, 2004, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

Hey I was there 2 weeks ago. You want a photo?

1975....Get over it. 29 yrs ago. wink wink

wink Sure - you send me a pic for my dart board, and I'll send you one of what a real president looks like so you'll know the difference!

Rob

[ October 13, 2004, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

Sorry, Eastside- nobody beats the Bushies in the say anything, wear any clothes to get a vote department. They're politicians to the core, interested mostly in advancing the interests of their business friends and caring only to appear minimally competent in guiding America- W doesn't even meet that standard.

Great retort. Hmmmmmm- no wonder why Liberals have been out of power and out of touch for sooooooooo long. Bring on Hillary- she's the only Clinton w/ balls.

Can't wait -see my post at 10PM 11/2/04.

PS Learn to earn trust not not build a big tent with no walls, no foundation, and no plumbing. wink wink

Say what? Libs ran things for 8 years. It's only been 4 since Dumbya was appointed and has run things INTO THE GROUND.

BTW, don't count your chickenhawks before they've hatched!

[ October 13, 2004, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Loved that Bush had to think of the name of his "friend" whose painting is hung in the White House. Could his pause before saying the name have anything to do with waiting for his off-camera coach to tell him it?

Idiotic Bush quote of the evening:

"I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage."

Defining a definition? Whatta dumbass.

Although Bush was clearly more on his game tonight than in either of the first two debates, Kerry proved to be outstanding in this forum once again....the best line of the night was when John said, "I'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families."

Hopefully W will get lambasted for denying that he ever said "I don't consider Osama Bin Laden to be a threat" (or something to that effect), which MSNBC has already confirmed that they have tape of Bush saying the EXACT quote that Kerry attributed to him.

It will be interesting to see if the number of viewers are comparable to either of the first two debates, considering they were up against the baseball playoffs....if so, Kerry's performance tonight can do nothing but help him in the polls once again.

~Joe

[ October 13, 2004, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: gamecock ]

wink I don't know - I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he never said it - I think it was the guy on the other end of the wire who speaks when Bush lip synch's...

Rob

On the whether you are born being gay issue, I thought it was nice that Kerry took the stance that it's not a choice.

On the overall debate, there were a TON of numbers being thrown around which was probably a little overwhelming.


With the baseball playoffs, the audience was probably more women vs. men watching than the first 2 debates, and Kerry did an excellent job focusing on women. I also very much like how Kerry is articulate and clear when he speaks.

Gotta love Bush's "he's MINE" about the McCain thing. When I first saw him in the audience, I knew he would be brought up somehow.


I enjoyed the questions in the debate. They were all about rather predictable issues, but creative questions about those issues. And some were straight to the point.

It was interesting that last night Bush kept spinning the questions to education and "No child left behind" and "getting them an education".

I really feel that with the question regarding education that the asnwer Bush gave would be offensive- he is assuming people don't get jobs from lack of education- sad thing is- there are so many people with degrees who cannot get jobs because the economy is in the tank- and people with years of experience (which trumps educational value in some industries) cannot get jobs for the same reason.

Kerry hit the mark with his comment on Pell Grants- "more people are getting them because they now qualify" *snort, snicker* But I really wish that Kerry would have emphasized- Mr President, although education is of value for a lot of workers, a good economy is of value to every worker.

Excellent point kick. I also thought that Kerry sounded a bit more like an orator with a vision. His concentration on detail is an asset for the nations First Administrator, but goes over the heads of many people who don't have the time to sweat the details. They have a job and a life, or the problems inherent in having neither. Though he's no Mario Cuomo or Robert Kennedy, he flirted with an eloquence that certainly made GWB seem pedestrian. When he talked about his faith many of us listened close.

I have to say Kerry won the debate, like most of you and most viewers who partook in post-debate polls, but there was no slam dunk and each of these guys will stagger on toward election day.

I find Bush's demeanor completely grating. The sassy winks, the smirky grin, the voice that seems to rise with intensity making his delivery seem forced and insincere, his deliberate pauses, the way he puts the wrong emphasis on certain syllables within words... all of them drive me crazy.

Aside from style, I think Kerry won on the substance. He has such a greater mastery of the issues than Bush and the intellectual imbalance between the two men is so evident.

Bush's best answer of the night was when he talked about the First Lady and their meeting. It highlighted that he can be charming and eloquent when he's talking about something he truly feels and knows about. But his answer to that question stood in stark contrast to the answers he gave with regard to issues that are important to his job as president. On issue questions, he seemed jerky and not well informed and the contrast to the personal matters questions where he seemed relaxed and knowledgable was very revealing to me. It showed me that he is a good family man, but that he is out of his depth in his job.

I thought Kerry's response was, likewise, good and he got some good laughs at the "marrying up" comment. Self deprication usually works to defuse a tense moment and Kerry played it well. I wish Kerry spent a moment or two to compliment the story the president told about meeting the First Lady and to show a more human side, because it was a very touching story. Kerry could have defused a bit of the partisan back and forth by praising Laura Bush for her service.

Bush's biggest blunders were on the Osama question and the discussion on social security.

Kerry's biggest problem was talking about having a plan, yet rarely telling the viewers what that plan is.

I don't think Bush's attempts at plastering Kerry with the Liberal tag held. Maybe it did in some parts of the midwest and south, but I live in Massachusetts so what do I know?