No surprises yet.

South Carolina, Virginia, and New Hampshire currently too close to call Is the media being very cautious or do SC and VA mean good things for Kerry?

Time will tell.

VA has the largest military population of any state. If Kerry wins VA than we are quite possibly looking at a Kerry landslide. Even if he wins by a narrow margin, it could spell major trouble for Bush. A few days ago the democratic Governor in VA said he thought VA would go to Kerry.
Doesnt help Bush that today AOL said 700 wpuld be laid off at their Dulles office in VA. Go Kerry.

Heard that early exit polls from across the county are showing a gender gap: Kerry leading among women 56% to 43% for Bush (still very early.) Just a couple of weeks ago, there was a lot of noise that the gender gap had disappeared as "security moms" turned towards Bush. Guess that was just the sound and fury signifying nothing.

~Adam

Virginia has been called for Bush, it was close, we tried, but no dice. I am getting nervous, the Ohio and Florida are not looking good, the numbers are just not there for Kerry, and Pennsylvania still is out there. Michigan? I will feel better when they call the west coast for Kerry and he pulls about even, but man it is 171 bush and 112 Kerry. I am getting depressed here.

Could be another 4 years of gay bashings, and attacking other nations that are located really close to countries that are connected to the War on Terror....

ABC says Kerry wins Pennsylvania. Woo-hoo!

With Florida going to Bush, it would seem very likely that if Kerry doesn't win Ohio he's toast.

Ohio is looking like this year's Florida at the time I am posting this.....

Amazingly, as of midnight every state has voted exactly the way it did in 2000 - no states have switched sides yet, although that may change if New Mexico goes for Bush and/or New Hampshire goes for Kerry. Florida is essentially in the bag for W - his lead continued growing all night and currently stands at 300,000 votes.

It looks like the final turnout will be around 120 million votes, an increase of 15 million votes from four years ago. Everyone thought such a large number would benefit Kerry, but clearly W energized his base just as much as the Dems did. Also, it's worth noting the vaunted youth vote made no significant impact. Despite registering in huge numbers, they comprised only 17% of the electorate, exactly the same as 2000.

Taking time out from the election for an execution. How macabre.

It's kind of a tribute to our "native son" W. He's a big fan of executions.

I still find it macabre, though. Maybe it's just me. :confused:

It's all but over if this is true about Ohio.

Presidential Race

Bush - 266 Kerry - 211

Real Clear Politics

Sadly, W. interpreted his last election as a mandate. Welcome to Hell!

the lead has slimmed from 130k to 100k in Ohio with 14% left, Fox News may be just a bit premature with the call, but Bush is making gains in Iowa (only trailing by 800) and Nevada.

[ November 02, 2004, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: DeepRivers ]

NBC just called Ohio for Bush, explaining that of the remaining votes yet to be counted, many are in heavily Republican areas east of Cincinnati and a few other spots.

On CNN, James Carville says he talked to their ground game in OH, who told him, "It's over."

In IA, Kerry lead down to a thousand or so votes. Bush looks like he'll pick up New Mexico, and he's closing the gap in Nevada. He may swap that with NM or may yet win it.

No one can say this was boring.

[ November 02, 2004, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Veritas ]

Veritas, PhillyFan, Gmginsfo, you carried the day. I should never underestimate the number of idiots in the U.S.

Invade whatever countries you want; bankrupt the country with deficits; demonize homosexuals as the scourge of the earth--you've earned it.

And by the way--KISS MY GAY ASS!!!! I'm not leaving and your Christian Right-Wing Mother F*cking fellow Republicans can bite my ass. I'm gonna be more in your face than these bigots can fathom. Enjoy you time in power--and sleep well knowing you've mortgaged the future of generations to come.

Dear Libs,

Please put up a decent candidate next time.

Thanks,

America.

Ohio's looking grim now as Bush is back up by 130k, plus he's taken a 4k lead in Iowa. With the Iowa race so heated, I still wonder why he didn't take a chance on Vilsack as his VP.

Can't we all just get a bong?

Liberalism has failed, PF. Again.

To arms!

I may feel that way deep down, and have imagined my future like that, but what's the point?

I accept defeat. It validates what I've always known: I'm a freak, a weirdo who doesn't belong here. I guess I'm not an American. It's obvious that I am truly a minority in this country, and the majority frown upon my beliefs. My faith in what I thought America stands for is blown; everyone really is out for themselves here, and f**k freedom for those who are different.

Looking at the raw exit poll data on the CNN website, it becomes crystal clear: The GOP strategy of gay-baiting worked in a big way. Unbelievably, THE most important issue, according to the exit polls, was "moral values"! Over terrorism, Iraq or the economy. Keep in mind the exit polls were skewed in favor of Kerry supporters, so the actual proportion is probably a little worse. It also seems certain the gay-baiting used in the Oklahoma, Kentucky, and South Carolina races also worked, with all those close races going to the republicans with "moral values" as the key issue according to exit polls. It also appears all 11 state constitutional amendments passed, including the most draconian ones, by wide margins.

I think this is a terrible harbinger of things to come regarding gay rights and the federal marriage amendment. The evangelicals got out the vote, and actively campaigned against us as a group, just as Rove and Bush wanted. And believe me, they will expect to have their agenda advanced by Bush and the new Senators in return. The Federal Marriage Amendment is much, much closer to reality tonight. I hope our resident Bush voters are happy.

Majority of the vote is in - W all the way. My offer still stands who wants my invite to the Re-election inaugral ball? I get you one or I'll get you a hundred. wink wink

Good God for the sake of the Country- John Kerry concede !!- don't send your little lawyer boy out to the Press again with the double thumbs up. How childish and how juvenile. Do the math- either work for change or learn to accept it.

Well, I am not going to be bitter in the fact that George W Bush won. He earned this victory and he gets the next four years. He will continue to polarize our nation and claim God is leading his decisions. Our deficit may improve, but it will not change significantly. The war on Iraq and terror will carry on and we may actually have to go into other nations to fight a war that he stated: "I don't think we can win it."

On a personal note, I don't know whether or not to take it good or bad that on average, gay vote measures were about 60-40%. I would't expect anything different on isolating the fact that it is marriage. However, in Michigan, the people who pushed for it on the ballot added a single phrase at the end that indicated "or any similar union for that purpose" which eliminates the possibility for domestic benefits, civil unions, etc. They stated that it was to "add emphasis" versus trying to eliminate civil unions. UGH!

So my fears are that my life is being made that much harder. I have a leader of my country who has labelled me a "sinner"- that he doesn't listen to science and "I just don't know" if homosexuality is a choice- and that my lifestyle is to be "tolerated" versus accepted.

So the race was fair and Bush won in another close race. We will continue to watch him closely and look at his policies with strong scrutiny. And as Goldie Hawn states in the hilarious movie "Protocol"- "I will watch you- we will watch you- LIKE A HAWK."

Any word on what Michael Moore had to say? :confused:

An election result should be at least as dependable as a receipt exchanged by a merchant and a buyer. If I had a receipt, I would be suspect if the merchants computer-stored results disagreed with it. I doubt most merchants would argue either, though many unscrupolous ones will enter caveats in the original contract to allow themselves to not honor the exchange. Elections should be no less dependable than a simple business transaction. Elections should be clean.

This day feels so evil. I couldn't watch last night beyond about 9pm Eastern time, and wake up to this horrible news. And then to read the Republicans won three more Senate seats, and 11 states passed referendums banning gay marriages, just vile, evil, mean spirited day. And to think of the Supreme Court changes coming. Ugh.

And I shake my head in wonder at 'moral values' being the deciding factor in this election, over the economy and terrorism/war. Security Moms don't want their children growing up with images of Britney Spears's gyrating dancing, but would rather have them live to go to war, in a ruined, weak economy. Guess it's time to get a gas gussling SUV, get fat, go into debt and read my Bible.

[ November 03, 2004, 05:33 AM: Message edited by: shore ]

We are looking for jobs in Canada.

It's not officially over, but it certainly doesn't look good for John Kerry. But until there is absolutely no chance for Kerry to win, as most networks have not called it yet, Kerry should not concede. I am pretty sure Americans can handle it. The ones that can't, too bad.

Frankly, I just don't understand the results. I don't care where one stands with issues such as Iraq or gay marriage, etc., but Bush can at best can be regarded as a mediocre President. But the majority of Americans (who cared enough to vote) decided to reward Bush with reelection. I honestly don't know if Kerry was a great choice for the Democratic Party, and it looks like we'll never find out. But the Republicans put up an AWFUL candidate, and yet he wins the majority of the vote. You'd figure it would be the Republicans that would have to do the soul searching after this election. Go figure.

Sorry for not being gracious here. But that's another problem I see with campaigns. Many candidates (of both parties) get so dirty with each other, but once the election is over, play nice with each other. Talk about hypocrisy.

Anyway, I'll get over it, and I'm sure we'll survive another four years of Bush.

Edited to add:

I know that Bush clearly won the popular vote, but the Electoral College must go. It's just mindboggling that in 2004 we must deal with such an unfair, antiquated system to decide the President.

[ November 03, 2004, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: pat125 ]

11 states approve same-sex marriage bans.

According to the Washington Blade blog, we didn't help ourselves any, either:



[ November 03, 2004, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: canmark ]

Pat125, no, the people who elected Bush do not see him as an AWFUL candidate. They see him as someone who mirrors their own ideas and beliefs--that's the scary part. So disappointing. But, I've always thought a vast majority of Americans to be suspicious, small minded, mean spirited and ignorant. I just never thought they would have so much control.

Ok, you fellow dems and assorted anti-Bushies, we lost. It was very close, and the nation is almost as polarized as in 2000, if not more so due to the war in Iraq. And the pollsters are citing the No. 1 issue for all the Bush voters is "moral values". So we have to ask ourselves, what do the voters think that government deals with moral values. IMHO, it is a combination of things. First, people are concerned about the moral judgment of the president because of Clinton and his behavior that embarrassed much of the nation. Here in the "rural areas" that the commentators talked about so much last night, Clinton is hated, mainly due to his sexual actions in the White House.

And I wonder if a gay marriage is the other main reason that moral values are so much in the forefront. I fear that in our enthusiasm and stretch toward equality, we caused such a backlash that we helped defeat the candidate that most closely supports our goals. In the small cities and towns gay marriage bashing is not only done, it is required for any politician to get elected.

So I pose this question, did we choose the wrong fight? Does the HRC and GLAAD and the Legal Defense Fund and all those gay organizations, and those of us on the ground, deserve part of the blame for Kerry's loss? Instead should we have focused on Civil Unions and Nondiscrimination and safety in schools? Did John Kerry lose because of me? Is this disaster my fault?

Enough self-flagellation, we need to accept defeat, learn from it, and move forward. We may have to accept that President Bush won the popular vote and the electoral college, and we need to work as a minority. We can only hope that as we become more visible the "moral values" voters realize that we have moral values too, and we have the right to tolerance, then acceptance, then equality.

Shore, I agree that many Americans thought Bush was a good candidate, but there also seemed to be many disenchanted with Bush, but still voted for him, because they didn't want to take a chance on Kerry. I just don't think President's should be rewarded for mediocrity, and that's what I think happened here.

In election news in my area, the Democrats (other than Bush) swept the ballot, including some nonincumbents. Normally, that would be a good thing. But the two remaining Republican freeholders on the county board lost. Corruption is bad enough in this county when power is shared, and can see it only getting worse now that one party is in complete control.

The representative of my district also won. He voted against the FMA and was glad to see him win reelection.

bball, I turned the television off last night when I heard some pundit say that 'abortion is the issue' with people who live in the red states. I knew then that the election was lost.

Also, Kerry, although a Democrat, never supported gay rights or gay marriage. He didn't want to denie anyone anything, which I appreciate and echo, but he was not making gay issues a ballot issue, and tried to avoid throwing too much weight on those isssue.s

bballrob:

I don't think we did pick the wrong fight, I think we underestimated the enemy and the levels to which they will sink to hold onto power in this country.

All through this campaign, I kept arguing with people who believed Bush voters were merely "stupid" - I reject utterly the idea that there are that many people out there unable to assess situtations with common sense. Yet, according to NBC's exit polls, many of the voters in Ohio were voting AGAINST their own economic self-interest. Sure they thought the economy was lousy in Ohio, but they voted on "values."

The reason for this, I really have come to believe, is that the Republican party, which is heavily financed by the same companies that are outsourcing jobs, would never win these types of elections if they didn't have a "faith" or "values" cover. This season, it was the gay marriage amendments, and the President skillfully used those to get out far more evangelicals than he got 4 years ago (again that's reported by NBC) - but the "values" arguments is ultimately a smokescreen, because it deflects attention from the true problems in this country, which are not abortion and gay marriage. But scapegoating has always worked because it uses the basest human emotion - the belief that each of us has that we, and those like us, are special - and exploits that. So, to GOP voters, the problem is not a President whose economy is not working for them, the problem is the "undermining" of society by "liberals" and "homosexuals" - the phantom enemies of the Right (replacing the now not very useful Communist).

We need, but do not currently have, a forceful leader who can convince these socially conservative working class voters that the GOP is using them for votes and then ignoring them. Clinton did that to some extent, but there is no one else in the Democrats who, as far as I can see, can really lead the shadow government to dog this administration and the GOP in general. God only knows how long we will have to wait.

bballrob - as usual, very direct and insightful post. It echos my thoughts this day.

Good post, bballrob. In a word, the answer is "yes". The events in Massachusetts during the past year not only became an issue out here in the Bible belt, it became THE issue. Virtually every pulpit declared we are on the doorstep of the collapse of civilization -- not to mention God's wrath -- if people don't stand up against the horrible liberals on gay marriage. We agree Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwells comments that America brought 9/11 on herself because of liberals and gays was repugnant -- I can tell you many, many people out here shook their heads in agreement. Further, a candidate's stand on gay marriage -- and the FMA -- became essentially a litmus test. If you don't support the FMA, you will lose the election, period.

While I very much love my friends from the big liberal bastions along the coasts, I think they deeply do NOT understand where the majority of Americans still stand on gay issues. Here in Oklahoma, the main point of debate is whether gays should be thrown in jail or mental institutions... whether gays are evil liberals trying to destroy families and America, or whether we are sick heterosexual people in need of help. The idea of "gay rights" makes as much sense to the average person out here as the idea of "alcoholic's rights".

Right now, our opponents have far outpaced us in their numbers, their funding, their motivation, and their connections. They have a network of nearly 50,000,000 people that meet every Sunday, give them 10% of their income, and who actually vote and participate in the process. We struggle to turn out hundreds of thousands in a few states on underfunded campaigns. There should be no surprise where we stand. One problem is the people out here have very little exposure to gay folks, except what they see on the news the day after the pride parades...we are some distant "other" that mainly live in such "hellholes" as San Francisco
or Manhattan. I honestly don't know how to change these impressions, when I am scapegoated and made into a monster week after week at church after church.

From the Demon's Dictionary by Ambrose Bierce:

Politics-The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.


Always was, always will be.

Yes, I too echo alot of sentiments from ballrob. I think the power of the Shrub church vote was underestimed. In my opinion Rove's campagin of fear, and demonizing won brilliantly, plus throw in "moral issue" vote. It worked to a fault. Now I feel its time for the Dem. party to do some serious soul searching, about where do we go from here?? Its clear that some things need to change and in a big way. I remain ever the optimist here, and I also can report that in my state, Washington, things did indeed go well for us. I now await for Shrub to "come to the center", and reach out to the 50% of the country who did not support him, and to put some Dems. in his cabinet!!

[ November 03, 2004, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: puckman1 ]

Perhaps it would help if the current Republican Party would return to its roots, replacing "Fremont" in the phrase

with "the freedom to have your vote count equally" for all USA citizens. If Kerry does miraculously win Ohio, perhaps that could happen.

Your candidate will execute us if we load it.

He won't. He'll continue to pander to those who got him reelected.

Interesting post by bballrob. I agree that we should do a little post-election self-reflection. Gay marriage is, disturbingly enough, becoming a vote winner for the christian fundamentalists! Not a good sign. Should we try and shift more of our efforts towards "winning the hearts and minds" of people in the heartland? Maybe through outreach, speakers, movies, media, etc., we could try and change opinions out there....

Thought all of you here would be interested to hear what happened in Massachusetts last night. Contrary to what happened in the rest of the country, a pro-gay marriage stance was a WINNING issue in Mass!

- Every legislator that voted for gay marriage in the state house debates was relected, often with large margins.

- In 6 of 8 open seats, pro-gay marriage candidates beat anti-gay marriage candidates.

- An openly gay candidate defeated a long-time anti-gay state legislator, even after a rapidly gay-baiting campaign.

If we go back a year ago, the state opinion here was much more divided on the marriage issue, and the catholic church fought it really hard. But now that gay marriage has been legal for almost half a year and the sky hasn't fallen in, it looks like people are more open to the idea.

As one of the other posters wrote, Massachusetts is a far cry from what's going on in the heartland. But hopefully this is an encouraging sign - once people see that nothing changes with gay marriage, their resistance fades.

We're not. We're going to stand and fight on the front lines of the culture wars in Virginia.

As was said above, Welcome to Hell.

I think you guys are overestimating the gay issue and underestimating how close this was.

Bush won because he's a war-time incumbent president. The religious right will crow that their guy won because he shares their values. They want to think of themselves as kingmakers. We want to blame HRC and gay marriage activists because we want to beat ourselves up. It's understandable.

But a large percentage of people who voted for Bush did so simply because they think the right thing to do is support the President. Dumb as you may think it is, a lot of people are loath to send a signal to the world that what we did in response to 9/11 was wrong by voting out the man who made those calls. Keep in mind that a lot of those voters still think the war in Iraq is tied to 9/11 and a global war on terrorism. All this talk of values is just talk compared to the real issue: a war time president.

Take a look at NJ: Bush 46% compared to Kerry 53%. You really think 46% of voters in NJ want religious right values? Of course not. They're voting for him because he's a war time president. They'll overlook all the other stuff. I know people like this--don't particularly like Bush, don't dislike Kerry, look down on the religious right, think the Iraq war was a mistake, and yet will still vote for Bush because they think that appearing united in war time is the right thing to do.

Kerry did well, really well, considering he was up against a war time president. This idea that we're this small powerless minority who are now about to be swallowed up by a mass of unthinking yahoos is an overdramtization if you look at how well Kerry did in each state. He won 38% in TX at the low end, and was so close in others. I realize it's nothing given how the electoral system works, but all this talk of how we're a small and powerless group sunk because a teeming mass of idiot rednecks is a bit much considering how close this was.

It is so very disheartening. We all know what they are talking about when they say "moral values". It can't be anything but gay equality with perhaps a little abortion rights thrown in. Its so sad to think we are so hated, but then look at how African Americans have been treated in this country. My partner of 4 years is African American and talking about this election with him he's just like "What did you really expect?" I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. I really don't know if I can take another for years of being so demonized. I also don't think for a minute Bush will keep any of his compasionate promises. Throwing us on the fire worked for them this time and it will work for them again so they'll do it. Welcome to the dark ages. This is going to take some time for me to get over. Thankfully I am cushioned here in Jersey but I feel really sorry for you guys and gals out there in the heartland.

Tom Ford, I just read your post and hope you are correct but I have to say the few folks I know in Jersey who voted for Bush did so because their churchs told them to. I wish it weren't true, but...

[ November 03, 2004, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: gobar ]

Good posting Bball, I agree to some extent but honestly fell they would not have been able to resist some other “homosexual agenda” to their means. Marriage, was just the one on the hot seat. If just one homosexual somewhere opens his or her mouth they will make sure the church goers vote Repub.

One of our Canadian members posted a message about some awful incident that happened to him in an American airport when he was wearing a Canadian sports short. I’ve heard of many other anti-Canadian attacks. Now admit it guys, this country has reached a new level of xenophobia when some of our citizens demonize our peaceful, civilized neighbor to the north. I mean really, Canada!!! That’s like the Europeans demonizing Belgium. And why? Because they have the sense to say that the war in Iraq is not a good thing.

So what this says is that by appealing to the homophobes you can rally enough people to vote against their own domestic interests, and by appealing to the xenophobes you can convince them that sending their young men and women off to be killed in a useless war is okay.

If this war continues to escalate they may just have to allow homosexuals to serve as we’ll be running out of people to voluntarily die for our country.

Kerry has conceded. :mad:

I am thinking of continuing my education only to run for office and fix the issues with society. I am thinking of going to law school after my doctoral program. I am also beginning to volunteer even more than I have with the democrats here in Virginia. All the while I will be looking for jobs in Blue states and Canada.

[ November 03, 2004, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Jason Cottrell ]

I know I probably shouldn't be posting this under this display name, but watching the election returns come in the whole night made my physically sick. This morning however, I got up and realized that I'm just pregnant. eek!

In all seriousness, Democrats really need to find our next Harry Truman. Someone who can give the GOP some hell and do it with an unassuming Main Street USA flair. While most of us here hate Dubya's ™ smirk, it's one of his "down-home charms" that people respond to. People think, he is one of us, and listen to him while tuning out the candidate who doesn't seem to fit in.

But as CPT_Doom has already said, there is no one currently in the Democratic party who can be this kind of leader. Now is the time to find him/her, and start convincing these Americans that the GOP will never give them a Fair Deal.

Otherwise, we need to start knocking up the "red state" lesbians and beat 'em on sheer numbers!

Tally ho!! -- cause I'm trying to stay optimistic

I think Mark Warner from Virginia may be in the running. He has a 69% approval rating in Virginia...The highest of almost any governor in the state and everyone is actually supporting the things he has done in Virginia, including a tax hike.