It's okay, sweetie. We all know that hubby, though conservative, was not a Bu$h supporter.

As with may of us, I went to bed last night & woke up this morning wondering about those civics class lessons I endured a generation ago, the ones that highlighted America's tolerance for diversity. In light of the election results, I think wondering whatever happened to those lessons and to question whether there is a place at the table for all of us. Broader question could be is it possible for the chasm that exists between the socially right-wing and the socially left-wing without some sort of civil war. If the results had stemmed from economic issues, foreign affairs, or health-care policies, there could be debate and the usual "process, process, process" of politics to assauge difference, but how does that take place when these differences go to the core beliefs of religion and personal morality?

If change is to come, it'll be street by street, neighborhod by neighborhood. That's why I'm going to continue doing what I have been doing--at the grass roots level--and urge others to do the same. Remember Gandhi's exhortation to be the change you want to bring about--well, be the first-class citizen you want to acknowledge.

~Adam

Well, now that we know its over can we change the tone of the thread to what are we in for next? I listened a little to what the Chimp was planning for us but frankly don't remember much of it. I expect I'll now have to start playing the markets game if I want any type of social security, and stop working overtime? oh and should we expect a major workup over in Falluja in the next few days? Does anybody think they will try and bring up that FMA again or will we have a least a 3 year repreive?

Word.

It is my duty to inform you that annulment papers have been filed. We know as a fact there is no way PhillyFan is the father. frown

[ November 03, 2004, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: scottie ]

Mark Warner is a good guy, an excellent campaigner, and not a bad basketball player, (although I threw his shot into the cheap seats last election) but I don't think he has the weight to be the next Truman or Clinton. But I can tell you who could really rally the troups, because he already did. Barak Obama. Of course if he runs there goes the solid south again....

I wish I could wholeheartedly agree with Tom Ford, but you know what, it just isn't like that here in the south. My secretary, who I love and who is a wonderful, caring person, is also a member of a fundamentalist church, and she said today, "you know why Bush won with that majority? Because the church people voted this time. We heard it on the gospel radio stations, from the pulpits, in our literature and in sunday school. We have to return to moral values in this country, with Clinton, partial birth abortions, and..." she paused. I said "and gay marriage" and she turned red and changed the subject.

I just came across a pic of Ann Coulter in my websearches. Ugh, What on earth did we do to deserve another four years of her? I think my head is about to explode!

Beg to differ. I doubt New Jerseyans take seriously that the attack on Iraq was part of the war on terror. They are an educated and sophisticated lot in general IMO. They may have voted their pocketbooks. Many jobs there are pharmaceutical-dependent. They are lots of moderate Republicans.

Welcome back, buddy. The fact that we are different sides of the political aisle doesn't mean that I didn't miss you.

Its still so interesting to me that as America moves to the right, our great neighbor to the north Canada, continues to move to the left. All hail Canada!!!!

OMG! What a sad day in American history. frown

I concur with most of the comments made so far re: this election and echo the sorrow felt by many with the outcome. I am having the greatest difficulty coming to terms with the public's decision here. If someone voted for Bush because they were afraid of change during a war or due to fear of another terrorist attack, I could understand their viewpoint--though I would disagree. But my fear is that many in this country allowed this president and his administration's decisive course of "dividing" the electorate on moral values to work...and it worked effectively. It concerns me that a country I really love and support is giving me, a gay man, a loud wake-up call. When a person from Ohio who is out of work votes "out of his pocketbook" and states "moral values" as the reason he voted Bush, I am saddened because republican moral value issues to me are abortion and gay rights. So I sit here self analyzing how can we live in a country which was founded on separation of church and state and equal rights for all men with these outcomes...... 0 for 2.

As a few people on here will probably brag about the results, let's keep in mind that one of the main reasons Bush won was because of hatred for gays. aka us. That's not something to be bragging about.

Bush may hqave won because he appealed to older white evangelical christians. The single largest issue (according to CNN, ABC, and NBC exit polls) among those who voted for Bush - ahaead of Iraq, the economy, or the 'war on terror' - was moral values. Bush succeded in scaring older - white - middle and lower class christians.

I find it significant that the only people who are actually celebrating with Parties, outside the Bush Campaign, are the Russians, Iranians, and Balkans.

75% of Europeans polled yesterday believe that the world is closer to threats from terrorism, as well as widespread war with the election of Shrub.

The worst however is yet to come; Now shrub gets to appoint a totally new Supreme Court in his own image with the full backing of a majority of the Senate.

As for me - I am just plain depressed.

I mourn for the land of Franklin, Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt, and Eisenhower.

Rob

[ November 03, 2004, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

I, too, am disappointed with the outcome of the election. I'm afraid BBallRob is correct in the fact that the Gay Marriage issue was the rallying cry they needed to get their side frothing at the mouth.

Let's face it, who here was REALLY excited about Kerry? I know I wasn't. I voted for him because he opposed Bush. Frankly, I don't like either of them and I think America was robbed with these two as our choices.

Moral issues are different for everyone. Abortion is certainly a huge issue. Let's not be so quick to assume all homosexuals are for abortion. I know many that are vehemently opposed to it and didn't vote for Kerry because of it. We all have a hot buttons, and Kerry wasn't able to punch enough of the hot buttons. People crave leadership and like to live within boundaries because it's easier. To those who voted for him, I would say that is what they like most about Bush. Right or wrong, he is willing to lead. I didn't see Kerry do that.

So, we lost. We can mope over it, or we can work to find the next great candidate. As far as Barak Obama, I don't think you should write off the South that quickly. The color of one's skin is important to some, but for many, it's not.

To all you bastards who voted for DUMBYA: When the gas prices go up to $4.00, don't say a DAMN word! When 5 million more jobs are lost, don't say a damn word! When all the old people don't receive any benefits, don't say a damn word! When your loved one gets killed overseas, don't say a damn word!

To all the gay people for voted for DUMBYA: WTF were you SMOKING?! I mean, SERIOUSLY!

To all the black people who sat on your asses and didn't vote: don't complain one bit! There are enough blacks in Cleveland, Akron, and Cincy, who didn't vote, that could have brought it home.

In addition, to all the blacks who voted for DUMBYA, you will join the legacy of the Republican House Slaves Condaleeza and Colin and JC. DON'T SUPPORT SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T GIVE A RAT'S @SS ABOUT YOU!

Finally, to ALL the Republicans who credited "Christian and Moral Values" for their reasoning to support DUMBYA: It's very "Christian" and "Moral" to raise daughters who break the law and get cited for underage drinking. And let's not forget the DWI Bush received. How "moral" can it be to endanger the lives of others while driving under the influence? Do you not realize how many people are killed by drunk drivers?!

This country will continue to get d*cked up the @ss - without lube!

(tells myself) "now breathe, stretch, shake......let it go"

Something to also send chills up your spine:

A quote from Tom Delay this morning:

"Now we can do even more exciting things".

eek! eek! eek! eek!

The only thing that will change the anti-gay sentiments of "religious" people is actual leadership - something our country is completely lacking in. It will take leadership on the Left to stop the demonization of gays. What did we get during the FMA debates from the Left? It was a lot of "don't worry, DOMA already stops the evil faggots and dykes from marrying, so the amendment is unnecessary." There was precious little actual debate about the value of our lives and our rights as citizens.

I thought John Kerry was doing the right thing in not pushing gay rights, but it also left him in a bad position about not being able to attack Bush and the GOP for their blatant gay-bashing. We need a candidate who will get up and say "all of you have gay people in your families; all of you know and love gay people, so why is [insert GOP homophobe here] claiming these people are threats to the country? - Because it is to deflect your attention away from the real issues, the ones that affect your life."

As for the Right, we need leaders like William Weld, not only to voice their support for our lives, but who also have the balls to stand up to the anti-gay hatemongers who control the GOP mechanics.

Finally, we have to wait until this generation dies out, and the next takes its place - we won't have social security, a clean environment or any allies left in the world, but it will be a start.

Just for shits and giggles, here's the top ten and the bottom ten from the recent list of the 50 smartest states, with number one being the smartest. States voting for Kerry are in bold. Undecided are in italics.

1. Massachusetts (2nd year in a row at number one and John Kerry's home state)
2. Connecticut
3. Vermont
4. New Jersey
5. Wisconsin
6. New York
7. Minnesota
8. Iowa ... CNN lists as 50% Bush & 49% Kerry
9. Pennsylvania
10. Montana

41. Tennessee
42. Hawaii
43. California
44. Alabama
45. Alaska
46. Louisiana
47. Mississippi
48. Arizona
49. Nevada
50. New Mexico ... CNN lists as 50% Bush & 49% Kerry

Now, I am from the south originally, and by all means I know that not everyone in the bottom states is stupid. Far from it. Nor do I think all democrats are smart and all republicans are stupid. However, it is plain to see that - by and large - the states with the higher quality of education voted Kerry while those with the worst voted Bush.

re: "Finally, we have to wait until this generation dies out, and the next takes its place."

I bet people were saying that about racists in the 50s, and that's sadly didn't pan out.

[ November 03, 2004, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: TomFord ]

Ditto that, sweetie. I'm so glad this election crap is all over with, now I can get my life back.

I suppose this "Mrs. PhillyFan" situation will soon make sense...

[ November 03, 2004, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: William1865 ]

Glad to see you back William.

Has anyone checked on Bobby? We need to make sure he hasn't committed hari-kari. He's probably laying in a gutter somewhere, clutching his last UT game ticket and Pre-election ballet in his left hand and an empty Jack Daniels bottle in the other...

Bobby, let us know you're ok buddy.

[ November 03, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]

They rank states on the smartest people? WTF?

I've met alot of "smart" people who were book smart, but had zero common sense... Alot of them post around here....

And how many electoral votes does Europe have? Just checking.

Thank God that left-wing continent doesn't dictate our elections. We shouldn't tell them how to vote; they shouldn't tell us how to vote.

No, it won't, so don't even bother trying to make sense of it. wink

Oh, puhleeze! The Democrats have exploited the blacks for decades. What have they delivered to them? Endless promises never fullfilled. They have constantly denied that which blacks so badly want--good schools, choice in schools, a chance to succeed in business, freedom. The Dems have opposed this every chance they got.

HMMM...I'm so used to saying "Thank God for Mississippi" and now I get to add "Thank God for Arizona"? That's gonna take some getting used to.

Those polls are about the dumbest damn things I've ever seen. Intelligence isn't measured in your ability to take a test.

I promised myself that I would not respond to the baiting, but here goes.

So the opinion of the rest of the world doesn't matter?

Okay then. At least we know the ground rules.

So that means that the next time the US Gov't closes the airspace, we up here will refuse permission for the planes to land, and just let them crash in the ocean. After all, you don't care about us. At least we know the rules.

And when Iran cuts off oil, and Saudi Arabia descends into civil war and it's oil is cut off, we up her know to say, sorry, we have no more oil and natural gas to spare, so have a nice day, and will the last person alive in the north in February please turn out the lights. At least we know where we stand cuz you don't care about anyone but you.

And when hundreds of thousands of Seniors can't afford medications, and start dying, we'll just say "Sorry, our cheap priced meds are for us. You don't seem to care, so we;ll just keep them thanks".

And when you have hydro blackouts, and need to import power from Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec, (who supply 40% of the power to the North East) we can say, "Sorry, we don't want to export to you, and people will either freeze to death or die from heat exposure. After all, you don't care about the rest of the world, we're just responding in kind. "

Isn't an "I don't care about any other country but mine" attitude SOOOOOOO freeing?

I find it very liberating.

The "smartest" list takes its findings from a survey of public schools, actually, not of individuals or even of people of legal voting age; however, you can assume that a good chunk of the people educated in many of these places grow into adults who live in these places and that it is then reflective of the adult population in that sense.

It's not solely about test scores. States are graded on a variety of factors based on how they compare to the national average. These included positive attributes like per-pupil expenditures, public high school graduation rates, average class size, student reading and math proficiency, and pupil-teacher ratios. States receive negative points for high drop-out rates and physical violence.

You can take it or leave it. Like I said, I certainly don't think all the Repubs are morons or all the Dems are geniuses. Both lists are percentage based on the states as a whole, after all. I just found the juxtaposition of the two lists interesting.

In Georgia, we always said, "Why do all trees lean west? 'Cuz Alabama sucks!!"

It makes perfect sense to me! Welcome back William1865 you True American Patriot you! :cool:

In Florida, we said, "Why does the St. John's River flow north?"

"'Cause Georgia sucks!"

It's a sad day for America in that the lowest common denominators have ruled. The President succeeded in keeping people frightened, he succeeded in his religious war rhetoric both against the terrorists (read: Muslims) and the liberals (read: gays), he succeeded in his torrent of lies about John Kerry's agenda, and he succeeded in convincing his base, the elite, that their finances would only be safe in his hands. If you're rich, white, and corporate, he's your man. If you're unemployed but full of faith, he's your man. If you're willing to lie, cheat, and steal to get your way, he's your man. And if you're willing to marginalize those who don't believe exactly as you do, than he's your man.

Now what? It was too early for gay marriage and I think many of us stayed somewhat unsure about pushing this forward. Civil Unions hadn't even become ubiquitious in America and we started slamming gay marriage down everyone's throat. I understand the backlash since marriage is inextricably tied to religion in this country. I do believe in the right to marry especially since legally marriage is defined by the states not the church. What's been proven though is that much of America is defined by religious institutions.

And Kerry, as much as I like him, was the anti-Bush more than the passion inspiring candidate. America's dominated by corporate greed, religious arrogance, and yes, the freedom to be whoever we are. I do think America will continue to be energized and incensed by the oppressive, corrupt regime of George W. and Dick Cheney. And I do think scandals will rock their next four years. Let's just hope they're able to fulfill at least one of their promises (lies-i mean) which is to keep America safe. I can't imagine that anyone feels safer now than they did before 9/11 - another reason I don't understand how we could give this administration another four years to f*ck things up.

That's hysterical! I've never heard it before.

Jersey is the brunt of the geographical humor up here ... but I'm happy with Jersey today, so I'll let them slide!

A SAD SAD day in America. Someone said, 'if someone voted for Bush because of fear of another terror attack, I could understand it, although disagree', I really don't understand it. Do they believe that with that idiot in the office, all terrorist will take America off of their hit list? I spoke to a friend of mine who said he was voting for Bush, says 'he feels safer.' Safer than what? We still have the same troops available without Bush, we still the same military leaders, same power and might. I wonder how safe the troops in Iraq feel, and their families. The war on terror and the war in Iraq are two different topics. The war on terror started in Afghanistan, and should have ended there, with all the troops sent to Iraq, Bin Laden would be DEAD by now. The invasion of Iraq has turned more of the country against America, and I feel more trouble coming our way, NOT less. I really can't believe this country has put the idiot that wasn't even elected into office the first time, in there for a second term. But dividing the country worked for him. Seems to me he said something about 'bringing the country together' when the courts handed him the office of presidency in 2000.

Some initial post-election thoughts:

First and foremost, relief that this election will not be the drawn-out affair the last one was, and that Kerry showed good judgment by conceding. Relief that the voters were not intimidated by Bin Laden's posturing and stood by the President in his conduct of the war. No, Illini, I'm not going to brag about the GOP wins; the results speak for themselves. I will repeat what I've said all thru this election: Bush isn't perfect by any means, but for me was a better choice than any other candidate, and I'm glad and relieved most voters agreed with me.

BBallrob, as always, makes some good points. I fear though, that the lessons of pushing too much, too soon, and too loudly on gay issues will NOT be learned by the gay left, and thus we'll continue to moulder in inequality. The ACLU this morning issued a release stating its intention to litigate the constitutionality of certain anti-marriage measures passed yesterday. That's their right legally, of course, but is it good judgment? Also as I've said before, is continuing to agitate for our rights with the tired, offensive and too-frequently outlandish "in your face," street-fighting tactics of the '60s the way to go? I think not on both counts. Too many of us simply have not learned to LISTEN, let alone LEARN, from viewpoints different from our own. Once we break out of this circle jerk and start approaching others in ways they understand without being threatened by we'll start to make real progress. That's been my experience over a decade of politicking within the GOP.

Now what about the opportunities for advancement here? Well, they're not lost on us in Log Cabin. Since we're arguably pariahs as far as Bush is concerned, we have nothing to lose by increasing our intra-party calls for tolerance and equality, which is precisely what we're going to do. Look for an abandonment of the FMA, even if the GOP gains in Congress makes its passage, if not ratification, more likely. Look for LCR to hold Bush to his late claim that he isn't opposed to civil unions. I can't say what the outcome will be, but that's what we'll be doing.

Finally, I really wish folks here and in our "community" at large would abandon their seige mentality. Things are NOT as bad as many make them out to be; there are NO concentration camps in the offing, a vote for Bush was NOT a vote for "hate," and while the religious right turnout was large, it wasn't the ONLY turnout that was. There was a professionalization of GOTV efforts in this election by BOTH parties that was faith-neutral; such is the case in SDiego, whose GOP is very well-organized and avoids content issues in favor of good campaign management, something my counterparts in Illinois could well learn from.

I'm sure we'll all have more to say, but Kerry's about to make his concession speech and I don't thing I can be accused of gloating if I break off for now to listen to it.

Ok, so.... In light of the recent passing of CI-96 to PROTECT heterosexual marriage, I have taken a totally new mindset about hetero marriage. I want to keep it sacred. I want to keep it so sacred that it will be illegal to get a divorce. All these bible thumpers out there can just rot in the hell that they chose so early due to the fact that they want to try out sex at all. No one will be allowed to get divorced. It will be an agreement between our new theocratic government, the church voted into power by the electorate once every 2 years, the individuals, and GOD. It will be unbreakable, undesolvable, and the only way out of marriage will be through death. If one half of the couple commits a crime, both of them will go to prison, due to the new requirement that married couples will never be allowed to sleep more than 1.5 feet from the each other, because we all know that procreation is the only reason for marriage in the first place right? Atheists will be required to stay single, due to the fact that they do not abide by the voter mandated religion, and that there is no GOD for them to enter into the agreement with. This may sound a bit extreme, but we all must be vigilant to protect this institution from all peril in this day and age of heathens. The people of Montana have spoken and protected this cherished institution from the Homosexuals, now we must make it much more binding, and secure, other wise it may not stand for anything at all in the future. There will be people simply getting married because they love each other and want to live under the same roof, and while they are at it, save some money by being able to share healthcare costs with a joint account through their insurance, then when they find out that the person they are living with has been cheating on them for the entire time that they have been married, they may try to get a divorce. Well I'm sorry, but in marriage you take the good with the bad, and if you want to have those health insurance benefits you need to prove that you are in it for the long haul. The only way to do that is to completely outlaw divorce.

Ok, I'm a bit bitter this morning. I hate this f**king state full of religious fundamentalists ass****s. Not that the decision was a surprise, it just wasn't completely real until the vote, and now I'm pissed. I mean royally pissed off that this state of accepting and loving people that I have grown up in my entire life will show it's bigotry to the entire world this way. I have lost my faith in humans. These people are complete f**king ass****s, and every religious f**khead that voted for CI-96 should be forced to live in the hell of their own design, AKA Marriage, for all eternity. No more divorce, Ever. Lets see how well marriage stands up after that.

I'm bummed that Kerry lost and realy bummed the biggest issues were morals and values. But I'm really, really bummed we're not going to get a shot at having the looniest First Lady since Mary Todd Lincoln!

But the bigger issue than Bush winning is the fact that the GOP took full control of Congress. The Supreme Court, in the next 4 years, is going to look more like a religious tribunal than a Supreme Court.

But the saddest thing in all this is, in a nation of our size and strength, that the "best" candidates were Bush and Kerry. A sad state of affairs.

On a side note, pity the poor people of Alabama. Yesterday on ESPN's Pardon the Interruption, Charles Barkley vowed that if Kerry lost, he would run for Governor of Alabama.

[ November 03, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

Don't feed the "GOP" troll.

I know how you feel, MSU. I have had a similar roller coaster of emotions here in Oklahoma in the last 18 hours over SQ 711. I think Andrew Sullivan summed up well in his blog the best way to move on from it:

QUOTE

gmginsfo:
BBallrob, as always, makes some good points. I fear though, that the lessons of pushing too much, too soon, and too loudly on gay issues will NOT be learned by the gay left, and thus we'll continue to moulder in inequality. The ACLU this morning issued a release stating its intention to litigate the constitutionality of certain anti-marriage measures passed yesterday. That's their right legally, of course, but is it good judgment?

I agree with one thing, as I said back when the decision first came down: The Massachusetts decision was too much, too soon, and there would be a backlash. We've now felt it, and it's not going away any time soon. But don't lose sight of the fact that the bigotry insighted against us is NOT the fault of gays and lesbians, but ministers and politicians. MUCH more blame lies with Jerry Falwell, Gary Bauer and George Bush for meddling in our affairs than goes to HRC, NGLTF, or Lambda legal for trying to secure our rights.

QUOTE

Also as I've said before, is continuing to agitate for our rights with the tired, offensive and too-frequently outlandish \"in your face,\" street-fighting tactics of the '60s the way to go? I think not on both counts. Too many of us simply have not learned to LISTEN, let alone LEARN, from viewpoints different from our own. Once we break out of this circle jerk and start approaching others in ways they understand without being threatened by we'll start to make real progress. That's been my experience over a decade of politicking within the GOP.

And, despite their progress, the GOP as a whole is comfortable using us as a collective scapegoat. You still seem to have a long way to go. As far as listening and learning goes, living in the middle of the Bible Belt I'm FORCED to listen, day after day, to the right-wing evangelicals, and there simply is no reasoning with them as long as they are drinking from the kool-aid. I agree using "1960's" tactics are not helpful, but I don't see much of that going on anymore. You have to go after the libertarian-conservative types. Looking over last night's returns and exit polls, I'm increasingly convinced there are not many left.