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Maddog
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SCTrojan
OUCH maddog! Excellent pt! smile.gif
sportinlife
QUOTE(Maddog @ Jun 3 2009, 11:32 PM) *

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The one in the middle of course, still trying to keep the other two from fighting each other rather than the enemy.

Edit to add: Obama's Head of the Office of Personnel Management, and the highest ranking gay official to date in the administration, alludes to the foreign why the US policy of DADT is unlikely to be banned during the current presidential term - leaving the US as one of the few hold-outs in the West to continue justifying such nonsense.

This chronology of Truman's desegregation of the military gives a direct and accurate reason for his urgency:

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November 1947: Clark Clifford presents a lengthy memorandum to President Truman which argues that the civil rights issue and the African-American vote are important elements in a winning strategy for the 1948 campaign.


And the result:

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January 1948: President Truman decides to end segregation in the armed forces and the civil service through administrative action (executive order) rather than through legislation.


Obama has every reason to do the same. If not for his country, do it for his party. He certainly has played the political card well with the selective release of records that embarass Republicans.

Here is an opportunity to show, if not some political courage, some enlightened self-interest.

All we can do is continue to get the word out and eventually develop sufficient political allies to make the authorities feel the political heat.
BigBlueCowboy
The President and First Lady met yesterday at the White House with representatives of gay and lesbian organizations. He reiterated his commitment to federal protection of gay rights i and his intention to see "DADT" overturned. These are more important to me than marriage rights. Right now I can be denied housing, refused services, and fired from a job because I am a gay man, and there are no federal recourses for me. And I could not serve in the military as an openly gay man.

I am encouraged by Obama's statements yesterday. I would prefer Obama to issue an executive order, as Truman did when he ended segregation in the military. He wants to work through Congress and the Pentagon. By following Truman's course, Obama would be making a powerful statement that the denial of our civil rights as gay men and lesbians are on the same plane as the denial of civil rights to African-Americans and others. Sexual Orientation, it seems, has yet to be completely accepted as a defining mark of individuals as race is.

Obama's on our side. I just wish that he would be more forceful.
sportinlife
Great speech, well deserved applause. But the upshot is Secretary Gates considering something that looks like DADT Lite, which looks about as tasty as the beers that popularized the term.

Apparently Obama's preference to build support in the military and seek approval from Congress may actually be *gasp* necessary given the precedent set by the constitutionally questionble War Powers Act.

Truman's racial desegregation of the military preceded that act, and succeeded a real war, something that always gives the executive and Commander-in-Chief more authority.

Still I think that continued political impetus is the only thing that will ultimately change DADT for good.

But hey, I won't look this gift horse in the mouth. rolleyes.gif
SCTrojan
QUOTE(sportinlife @ Jul 1 2009, 07:09 PM) *

But the upshot is Secretary Gates considering something that looks like DADT Lite...


Yeah, I read about it earlier. Truly disappointing!

I'm seriously considering not voting anymore!
fenwayguy
I'd call it Stop Loss Lite, a step to at least reduce DADT discharges in the short term. Such a measure would have immediate but limited effect; however it's probably way more realistic than just issuing an executive order without DoD's and Congress' buy-in. Look where that got us with Bill Clinton.
BigBlueCowboy
As we prepare to celebrate Independence Day, here's the plight of a patriot...willing to serve his country and honoring the best of its values!
Take action now, Mr. President!
sportinlife
Tomorrow I'll also be thinking about the soldier currently being held capture, regardless of his sexual orientation.

No man - or woman - left behind is just as important as no child left behind.
SCTrojan
This is truly a sad story. Who knows if this incident may have an affect on DADT. I sure hope hope that Obama & his admin know about it. sad.gif
sportinlife
QUOTE(SCTrojan @ Jul 4 2009, 10:54 AM) *

This is truly a sad story. Who knows if this incident may have an affect on DADT. I sure hope hope that Obama & his admin know about it. sad.gif
Ditto. Unfortunately supporters of DADT may attempt to find a way to use this as an argument against repealing it as well.

If so then I suspect their twisted logic, and intentions, will be used against them.
Bill W
The Obama Administration has also backtracked on lifting the ban against needle exchanges to curtail AIDS transmission.

http://www.americablog.com/2009/07/aids-ac...obama-aids.html


QUOTE
Let's see:

1. The candidate promised to lift the ban.
2. The White House Web site reaffirmed the president's commitment to lifting the ban.
3. The White House Web site no longer reaffirms his commitment to lifting the ban.
4. The president now refuses to lift the ban.
5. The president actually affirmatively makes things worse by administratively supporting defending the ban.
6. The spokesman reiterates the president's support for lifting the ban, some day, once Congress gets around to it.

Sound familiar?
BigBlueCowboy
I saw this on Joe. My. God.

Glad to see a representative doing the right thing!
Rep. Patrick Murphy on the Rachel Maddow Show
sportinlife
QUOTE(BigBlueCowboy @ Jul 10 2009, 01:48 PM) *

I saw this on Joe. My. God.

Glad to see a representative doing the right thing!
Rep. Patrick Murphy on the Rachel Maddow Show


Yep!
SCTrojan
Well if DADT does get repealed this year (fingers crossed), & it's because of Rep. Murphy's efforts, then Time magazine should declare him Person of Year come 12/09, imho!
mdterp01
Update on the murdered black gay sailor

Murdered Seaman August Provost Laid to Rest, Racist and Homophobic Comments in News Coverage

The comments do not surprise me at all. I read some of the most vile comments by people online when it comes to race issues and gay issues. You have such ability to hide yourself from everyone on the internet. These comments are made by people that blacks mingle with at work and in the neighborhood that think are cool with them, but really aren't...and by gays who do the same thing not realizing that the person has such hatred in their heart. Its really disgusting. Glad Rep Sheila Jackson-Lee is going to demand a Congressional inquiry into this.
mdterp01
From Rod 2.0 who is doing a great job staying on top of this story.

Did a Closeted Gay Sailor Kill Seamen August Provost?

Now here's a piece of the article that I did not know was part of the DADT policy:

The new theory departs from previous claims made by Rose Roy and other family members that Provost’s murder was an anti-gay hate crime. Provost reportedly told numerous family members he was harassed and ostracized at Pendleton for at least a year because he was gay and black. Under the military's failed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, if Provost reported the homophobic harassment, that would have been considered "telling" and lead to immediate discharge.

So umm...we all know that some guys have more soft and feminine tendencies who are totally not gay at all. So even if this was the case for Seaman Provost, he would've been discharged?? Am I reading that right? Is Rod reporting that right? If you report homophobic harrassment its considered telling??? I mean do you have to word it differently? Do you have to say up front "Hey Commander I'm not gay but these guys keep calling me fudge packer and faggot can you help me?" People are subjected to homophobic harrassment who aren't gay. Maybe I should've had that extra shot in my Starbucks today because that can't be right. I have to be misinterpreting that somehow.
BigBlueCowboy
Here's an article from Soldier, a publication of the British Army:
"My problems are like every other soldier's-bombs and bullets."
sportinlife
An article written half a decade ago Gays in the Military : 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' - 10 Years And 10,000 Discharges Later put it best:
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...10 years of experience with the policy has made it clear that this compromise is not only a failure, but also an international embarrassment.


A fair comparison of our policy to those of the other western nations would give further reason for pause. But anecdotal reviews demonstrate the clear illogic of "don't ask, don't tell". In Allies’ experiences draw scrutiny as US debates letting gays serve openly in military an attempt is made to compare opposing views on gays in the military within Israel, Australia, Britain and the US.

The sharpest criticisms come from a gay Israeli major who says "Those who are more feminine in their speech and appearance have a harder time fitting in." still he fully supports the Israeli policy of serving openly and "sympathized with gays in the U.S. military who don’t enjoy the same liberty he did." On the other hand among the integrated Australian army, which is culturally closer to the US model, a retired marine brigadier opines that "Now if you introduce into that 10 men [the traditional 10-soldier units commonly deployed in Australian combat forces] a love or lust relationship, you immediately damage the phenomenon of mateship." What might Hephaestion say?
SCTrojan
Read this yesterday. Where it will lead who knows, but sil is prolly right. Can we say, "DADT lite!" rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
A committee spokeswoman confirmed that there will be hearings but that no specific legislation is under consideration.
sportinlife
A military joke making the rounds. The real joke is DADT.

From a thread on the democraticunderground.org an impassioned expression of disappoint with the Obama administration.
QUOTE
I woke up this morning, turned on the news and I couldn't believe my ears.

My president, through the DOJ, called me a faggot today.

He told me my relationship doesn't matter.

He told me to put on my assless chaps and get back on the float.

He told me that Rick Santorum was right.

He told me it was about sex and nothing more.

He told me that he has forgotten what it's like to experience discrimination.

He told the bully it was OK to beat up on the gay kid.

He sided with the Westboro Baptist Church.

He said it was OK to keep me from my loved one's side.

He said get back to planning the weddings.

He told me I was an expense the government couldn't afford.

He vindicated Carrie Prejean.

He allowed the DOJ to use language one would expect from Mike Huckabee.

He is silent now when his voice matters most.

I defended Obama over gay rights. I was beaming when he went on Ellen. I figured there was a good reason for his actions on the DADT challenge. I tried to convince myself it was politics and nothing more. Well this is a mystery I will never be able to solve.

Why is my president calling me a faggot?

Be warned. I'm really not in the mood for apologists right now.
Torchwood's John Barrowman and his partner Scott Gil display what may be the perfect response to the haters:

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TC
HRC was taken to task yesterday by Andrew Sullivan for not doing much of anything on DADT.

Why is it Obama feels compelled to speak out on the perceived injustice of one black man (HL Gates) but not the thousands of gay men and women who ask nothing more but to be allowed to serve the country they love. Just another politician.
boomer400
Sullivan also points out the double standard in military sex offenses. Straight adultery, which is against the rules? Meh. Gay sex, which is against the rules? Get rid of them!!!

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_...e-military.html
SCTrojan
Add to that the many sexual assault cases involving straight males against women in all braches of the military. How is that not reason enough to break the cohesiveness of a unit?! mad.gif
mdterp01
Another update on the murdered gay solider:

Suspect in gay sailors death commits suicide

If I were the family I would demand an autopsy performed by someone of the family's choice. Not saying the man was murdered, but I know this was publicity the military did not want and I wouldn't put anything past those muthas!!! There are lots of people 6 feet under who died of "self asphyxiation" who were really the victims of homicide.
Elemental
Don't ask don't tell is a load of shit. It has destroyed the lives of so many military members both gay and lesbian. Please repell this abomination President Obama.

And I mourn the murdered gay sailor. So sad. Another hate crime against our people.
sportinlife
And now come these extraordinary and unsupported claims of atrocities commited by US soldiers against gay Iraqis.

It is policies such as DADT that help make the military vulnerable to such blackmail, assuming that is what it is.

Not only does this lend support to banning DADT, but it also suggests once again that we are doing more harm than good by overstaying our welcome - if there ever really was one - in Iraq.
SCTrojan
Un-frakking-believable if the allegations are true. & frankly, I wouldn't put it passed some ignorant soldiers, sad to say. mad.gif
sportinlife
On a lighter note, uniformed Dutch soldiers participated in Amsterdam's Gay Pride canal parade this year for the first time though not as official representatives of the military.

And though 90% of young people said "they would not have a problem if their boss or teacher was gay", over 60% say that the parades represent a distorted view of the homosexual community - gay youths slightly more so than straight ones.

Many have marched in military-like regalia in previous parades. But skin and "glitter" are apparently things of the past for the young. Such institutions as the police have been well-represented in uniform for years.


SCTrojan
I know this article isn't completely related to this topic but I thought it "fit" for this thread. I wonder tho if it would be a hit w/ hetero boys if it were the case? I'd say prolly not. But I do like the concept, that's for sure. What are thoughts?
John King
QUOTE(SCTrojan @ Aug 9 2009, 02:38 PM) *

I know this article isn't completely related to this topic but I thought it "fit" for this thread. I wonder tho if it would be a hit w/ hetero boys if it were the case? I'd say prolly not. But I do like the concept, that's for sure. What are thoughts?


Here is a cartoon on this very same thing.

http://www.adultswim.com/video/?episodeID=...11a8241f5ce000c
SCTrojan
Another sad case of an excellent soldier being "honorably" discharged. There's nothing honorable about this type of situation, imho. I know what it means, but still I'd feel betrayed & humiliated if I were in his shoes. mad.gif

At any rate, I thought that these quotes were encouraging:

QUOTE
"Ironically, it pulled the unit together. A lot of them started to invite me out," Manzella said. "My co-worker was getting married; she told me that my boyfriend and I were invited to the wedding. It made me feel like I was more a part of the family."...

In 2006, Manzella's unit was sent back to Iraq, and he served his 15-month deployment with his unit knowing he was gay.

"I could have pictures of my boyfriend out, I could talk freely on the phone without having to worry about someone overhearing me and reporting me," he said.
sportinlife
QUOTE(SCTrojan @ Nov 10 2009, 07:26 PM) *

Another sad case of an excellent soldier being "honorably" discharged. There's nothing honorable about this type of situation, imho. I know what it means, but still I'd feel betrayed & humiliated if I were in his shoes. mad.gif

At any rate, I thought that these quotes were encouraging:
Apparently he was discharged "honorably" but the reason for the discharge was homosexual conduct. And it appears he did not lose any of the benefits that would normally accrue to an honorable discharge.

His situation compared to a discharge without the homosexual conduct "charge" (which any heterosexual serviceperson would have received given the same conduct he admits to, but with a person of opposite sex) is somewhat similar to a comparison of civil unions vs gay marriage.

It is separate but not equal. He can not return to the military for instance as other honorably discharged veterans are able to do.

Also he was discharged involuntarily. Which does not occur for equivalent heterosexual conduct. The case is actually very instructive with respect to gay rights in general. It is good that his comrades reacted so well.
SCTrojan
Interesting pts sil...

Btw I loved watching the video since he explains his perspective as to how the repeal of DADT will more than likely go down. He makes a good pt, which basically states that the military at its core is an organization that is given rigid rules & the soldiers MUST follow suit. In other words, there's no gray area about specific policy & law in the military--you simply follow orders period!

...Gawd, I think that the sports world (pop warner, hs, college, pro, etc) can certainly learn from the military. It certainly seems that more & more "honorably discharged" glbt soldiers are stepping up to the plate & speaking out, even when they were serving. I can't think of any other macho organization that could possibly be a template for glbt athletes. Maybe cops, but there hasn't been such a recent handful of glbt soldiers speaking out @ once. It's a govt conspiracy I tell ya. wink.gif

Edit:

Btw, like I mentioned earlier, being "honorably discharged" would not only make me feel betrayed & humiliated, but I'd also feel forsaken...Forsaken by MY country that I love & am serving w/ my life, literally! Isn't that the general philosophy of the military? Just sayin.
sportinlife
How low can we go? A Canadian court will now allow a soldier discharged under DADT to be considered for refugee status.

Our nearest and dearest ally gives us a well-deserved smack in the caboose. I just hope that Private Smith finds justice, and that we can find a more "fierce defender" of human rights as chief executive.
SCTrojan
Interesting article about a LA based photographer who has started an art project to capture currently enlisted glbt service members. So if you know of anyone who's interested in participating they can contact him.

Here's the photo website.

He also did a similar project/exhibit in '03 highlighting openly gay high school & college athletes.

Gotta give a lot of credit to this photographer's vision & the courage by those who participate in his projects. smile.gif
fenwayguy
Is it too early to get excited about the apparent movement on DADT?

In his State of the Union speech, the president called on congress to repeal the noxious policy.

The Pentagon is preparing an implementation plan. Tellingly, a critique of the policy won the 2009 Secretary of Defense National Security Essay Competition. (pdf)

The official rebuttal to the presidential address was silent on the subject (although the usual suspects are bleating the "unit cohesion" canard), so maybe there won't be much by way of organized Republican opposition.

All I can say is, it's about damn time.
mdterp01
Yeah yeah...I'll believe it when I see it. rolleyes.gif
sportinlife
Again, like the case of gay marriage that is progressing toward the Supreme Court, even if legislation for the abolition of DADT fails in Congress, it is in Obama's political interest to support it - and always has been in my opinion.

Opponents would reveal once again that they have no interest in any legislation that will appear to give Obama a "victory", and could not care less about the merits of that legislation.

Abolishing DADT would strengthen the military.

Abolishing laws that prevent gay marriage would strengthen marriage.

Abolishing discrimination against gays in the workplace would strengthen the USA workforce.

Supporters of these rights should have been more bold much earlier. But better late than never.

History will be our judge. Selfishness, displayed as political expediency and greed, is our enemies, just as it is the enemy of every human rights movement.

Had Obama been the fierce defender of human rights that he claims to be he would be on more solid ground.
BigBlueCowboy
Former Rear Admiral and Current Congressman Takes Issue with McCain
Huffington Post on McCain's Response

I'm saddened by John McCain's response. After his wife and daughter have come out against Proposition 8, I thought that he would have changed his mind. I wonder what his son, who is serving now, thinks.
fenwayguy
Oh how exciting! Gates and Mullen have a plan to make a plan! (C-Span video of the hearing)

Early in his testimony, Mullen came out in full support of eliminating the policy.
buccoman
The military is ready to do this, but the politicians are scared. They realize this would be another step along the way to social acceptace of homosexuality. It will be very interesting to see how this discussion plays out among the pols, because in reality they undesrtand the exisitng policy is bad for national security. Let's watch the republicans (and maye some dems too) respond.
sportinlife
An interesting story on the abolition of laws against gays serving openly in the British military is instructive.

It was inspired by an appeal to the European Union based on human rights. Britain's change followed the loss of that case by British counsels:
QUOTE
At least one British army brigadier publicly resigned in protest, citing "strongly held moral and military convictions" but most observers were surprised at how smoothly the new law - which was forced on the UK government by the European Court of Human Rights - was implemented.
There may be some early resignations among high-level US military as well if DADT is changed.

Personally I think it will make it safer for gays to serve openly if they do.

Nothing harms military discipline and morale more than having leaders within who do not respect the human rights of the people who must take orders from them to go into harms way.
canmark
Very good words from Adm. Michael G. Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff:
QUOTE
"Speaking for myself and myself only, it is my personal belief that allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly would be the right thing to do," Mullen said.
* * *
"No matter how I look at the issue, I cannot escape being troubled by the fact that we have in place a policy which forces young men and women to lie about who they are in order to defend their fellow citizens," he said.


Mullen also said: "I have served with homosexuals since 1968," Mullen added. "Everybody in the military has."
BigBlueCowboy
QUOTE
"At this moment of immense hardship for our armed services, we should not be seeking to overturn the 'don't ask, don't tell policy," said Republican Senator John McCain, who was his party's presidential nominee and lost the 2008 election to Obama, a Democrat.


McCain should remember that the period of desegregation in the military was also a "moment of intense hardship," and yet it was accomplished.
phillyrunner
Obama has so few victories since taking office, especially with the economy still tanking and health care getting sidetracked that getting rid of DADT should be a slam dunk. Unlike his other programs, this won't cost trillions of dollars and can be done with the sign of a pen. He has nothing to lose since his opponents already hate everything he does. At least he can score points with one segment of his constituency, the GBLT community.
Eric Swanson
There's a fairly recent book about "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and its impact that I'm eager to read, but I can't remember the title or the author. Can anyone help?
sportinlife
QUOTE(Eric Swanson @ Feb 6 2010, 04:01 PM) *
There's a fairly recent book about "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and its impact that I'm eager to read, but I can't remember the title or the author. Can anyone help?
There are some books among the list of references on this site, which begins with a short book published in 2008.
canmark
Frank Rich's latest column in the NY Times: Smoke the Bigots Out of the Closet
QUOTE
A funny thing happened after Adm. Mike Mullen called for gay men and lesbians to serve openly in the military: A curious silence befell much of the right. If this were a Sherlock Holmes story, it would be the case of the attack dogs that did not bark.
* * *
Mullen’s heartfelt, plain-spoken testimony gave perfect expression to the nation’s own slow but inexorable progress on the issue. He said he had “served with homosexuals since 1968” and that his views had evolved “cumulatively” and “personally” ever since. So it has gone for many other Americans in all walks of life. As more gay people have come out — a process that accelerated once the modern gay rights movement emerged from the Stonewall riots of 1969 — so more heterosexuals have learned that they have gay relatives, friends, neighbors, teachers and co-workers. It is hard to deny our own fundamental rights to those we know, admire and love.
* * *
The more bigotry pushed out of the closet for all voters to see, the more likely it is that Americans will be moved to grant overdue full citizenship to gay Americans. It won’t happen overnight, any more than full civil rights for African-Americans immediately followed Truman’s desegregation of the armed forces. But there can be no doubt that Mike Mullen’s powerful act of conscience last week, just as we marked the 50th anniversary of the Greensboro, N.C., lunch counter sit-in, pushed history forward. The revealing silence that followed from so many of the usual suspects was pretty golden too.
canmark
Interesting survey results from the NY Times showing how the wording of the survey question can change the results: New Poll Shows Support for Repeal of ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’
QUOTE
As the Obama administration proposes repealing the policy known as “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” a new New York Times/CBS News poll finds that a majority of the public support allowing openly gay men and women to serve in the military.

There’s less support, however, for allowing homosexuals to serve openly.

Confused?

The results highlight the importance of wording on the issue. In a test, half of the poll’s respondents were asked their opinion on permitting “gay men and lesbians” to serve, and the other half were asked about permitting “homosexuals” to serve.

The wording of the question proved to make a difference. Seven in 10 respondents said they favor allowing “gay men and lesbians” to serve in the military, including nearly 6 in 10 who said they should be allowed to serve openly. But support was somewhat lower among those who were asked about allowing “homosexuals” to serve, with 59 percent in favor, including 44 percent who support allowing them to serve openly.
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