Here up in the country you know as Canada, politics have been a daily topic for decades now.

The PQ (Parti Québécois) is the opposition in Québec and is poised to regain power as soon as an election is declared (i would put at 96% their chances of k1lling the provincial liberals next election).

PQ leader Bernard Landry resigned in june, leading the way to a leadership race for the head of the seperatist party.

André Boisclair (gay and out) is leading the race to be the head of the PQ and subsequently become the Prime minister of Québec.. and he would then declare another referendum in the hopes of Québec finally declaring their independance and taking control of its own finances and destiny.

Today Boisclair criticized the current government (Liberal Charest) saying that:
"he is alienating all the unions, and saying that he is strapped for cash.. there is a way Québec could benefit by winning on both fronts and having total control of its finances instead of always being strapped for cash.. (there are millions accumulating in Ottawa).. and not being able to negociate with unions and Québecers, and that's with Québec seperation".

[ August 29, 2005, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Leph28 ]

Haven't they been trying this for decades? What really is the point of separation from Canada? Canada has allowed them to keep French as their language. Wasn't that one of the biggest sticking points? I recall this same argument in the 1970's, again in the '80 and I am sure in the '90's. What does Quebec hope to gain by separating from Canada? Please enlighten your neighbors to the south.

Hi Millerbeach,

Yes, separation from canada has been an issue going on for decades now. There have been a few referendum, with the closest one coming in 1995.

In 1995, the NO side won by a very slight margin (50.4% vs 49.6%) and still to this day there are big questions as to who really won the referendum and the tactics used by ottawa and the liberals.

Canada has "allowed" us to keep talking french? why that's very nice of them! The truth is that Québec still speaks french DESPITE Canada. The constant efforts to assimilate Québec have failed.

What does Québec have to gain by seperating? Well one of the major points is control over its own finances. Right now, all revenues by all provinces are sent to ottawa, which then turns around and distributes it throughout all the provinces as it chooses. Ottawa also puts money in different programs. Québec has no say in what programs it wants the money into.

Québec is very different.. as many other provinces are very different too, but i've noticed that even in terms of culture and social policies (like gay marriage for example), Québec seems totally different than the rest of Canada.
Had Québec been seperate, gay marriage would have passed a LONG TIME ago.

Québec, for years, have been on their hands and knees in front of Ottawa, just working to get money from them in order to work towards it's own programs. The biggest thing independance would give Québec is control over our own province.

Now contrary to what many think, Québecers do not hate Canada.. Seperatists do not hate Canada (of course there are extremists, but there are extremists everywhere, not just here).

Personnally, i love Canada. It's a great country. It's just not MY country. I feel no attachment to it. When i see the Canadian hockey team, i don't care if they win or not. When i hear the anthem, it does nothing for me. It's just not my country.

I believe in self-determination for any group

If the people of Quebec vote to separate from the rest of Canada, good luck and god-speed

I only worry what it will do to Canada-I wonder if the country will fall apart

For some reason I keep thinking of Star Wars. Star Wars VII - Revenge of the Qubecois.

So, if the Seperatists take power, when would the next referendum vote occur? If the "Yes" votes win this time, would the rest of Canada sit back & allow Quebec to separate from the country? Fascinating.

While NOT a separatist, I must admit that rational people must think one thing very appealing:

Imagine what it would be like to eliminate an ENTIRE level of government from your life!!!! Wow.

I think the concept of Quebec "being on it's hands and knees before Ottawa," while obviously heart-felt, is a bit much. Try being a maritimer. Try being from the west, without proper representation while the great vacuum that is Ontario and Quebecs siphons the dollars east-ward.

Quebec is entitled to self-determination. The people are free. Despite what a separate Quebec would do to the rest of Canada, which I believe would have trouble holding together with an unbalanced centre of gravity. It's selfish and it's dangerous, but I understand that the soul of Quebec yearns to be the master in its own house.

Fair enough, but if Quebec separates, then it can take Ottawa with it. We don't want it. It certainly has nothing to do with us in the west. Take it, it's yours.


chuck

I live in Ontario, and own a cottage in Quebec. And I have on ereply. A lot of what you say is total BULLSHIT.

First of all, Quebec is the largest NET beneficiary of the Equalization Payments.

In case you don't know what that means, that means that money from the "have" provinces is taken and given to the "have not" provinces in order to equalize the standards of living.

Second. For over 50 years, Quebec has had control over the vast majority of its finances. Quebec does not pay into the Canada Pension Plan, but manages its own, the QPP. And Quebec is the ONLY Province that doesn't submit any of it's Federal taxes. It keeps them all, along with your provincial taxes.

And your provincial taxes are the highest in the country. Still paying 9% sales tax? Do they still call it an "olympic" tax? Cigarettes and Booze are also one of the highest in the nation.

And gas is also about 10 cents per litre higher than in Ontario. And it's all Provincial taxes, but BOO f**kING HOO, it's the nasty Englishman's fault. Kiss my ass.

Third. Canada has done a f**k of a lot more than "allow" Quebecers to speak French. The original legislation that created Canada, the "British North America Act", passed in 1867, guaranteed Quebec its own language, school systems, and legal systems. It was the only territory to receive "special dispensation", as it was seen as the right thing to do. And now, no matter what part of the country you are in, you MUST be able to receive goverment services in both offical languages.

Think that happens in Quebec? NOPE. French only. That's the law.

The Federal Government in Ottawa is now over 60% of people that claim French as their mother tongue. that's pretty f**kING good for a province that has less than 20% of the population.

And how about my rights in QUebec?

I pay almost 25% more in taxes than my next door neighbour at the cottage simply because I live in Ontario.

I am not permitted to receive my tax bill, or any other government communication in English, as Quebec passed bill 101, FORBIDDING the use of English in the Governement.

I pay DOUBLE the education taxes because I am an English Non-Quebecer. That's right toots. Because I am not "pur laine".

It's a bunch of CRAP that Quebecers think they have been so hard done by for so many years.

If you have any concept of history, you will realize that the vast majority of the downtrodden in Quebec was done by the Union Nationale Party in cahoots with the Catholic Church. That ended in the 1950's under Maurice Duplessis.

And the rest of us have been handing Quebec money ever since.

DOn't get me wrong, I love Quebec. I have spent every summer there since I was born, and am bilingual BY CHOICE but if you think that you can do better outside of Canada, then don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Oh, and by the way. If you do leave. It will be like this.

Closed Borders
No Trade (no trade treaties)
No currency guarantees
No debt guarantees
No passport use
No international support or representation

In other words. If you go, you go alone. Completely alone. And when your taxes rise about 40% (that's what the loss of equalization payments will cost you), I will be in my back yard celebrating that my taxes will have gone down.

If you represent the "new generation of Quebecois", then good riddance. We in the rest of Canada have pandered to you long enough.

The way you say this makes it sound as though Quebec is the only province that has no say over federal revenues. I won't pretend to know how the distribution of tax revenues works in Canada, but I would wager that all provincial tax revenues that flow to Ottawa are treated the same and that Quebec is not particularly aggrieved by this. Or am I wrong? Is Quebec the only province that has so no say over federal monies once it rests in Ottawa's coffers? If so, then you've got an argument. If not, then you are no worse off than Manitobans or Nova Scotians.

Aquaman:

Actually, Quebec has very little interferance from the Federal Government in it's financial affairs, except for the distribution of the budget surplus. QUebec stands to lost between 10 and 15 Billion dollars in equalization payments per year if they separate.
Most provinces, especially in Eastern Canada, went to a harmonized GST and PST, giving the feds more control. But in the end it saved them money, as the feds to all the accounting, and then write a cheque.

Quebec has chosen to retain control, and that's fine, but a lot of Canadians, of which I am one, are very tired of Quebecers constantly playing the aggreived partner. they have a special status both linguistically and financially that every other province envies. But the majority of Quebec's market is with the rest of Canada, and if they separate, we shut the door.

ANd do they really think the US would allow a unknown country to control the St Lawrence seaway?

theodoresdaddy:
Chuckvanc:
Would you guys have said the same thing back in 1861? Seems like something called the Confederate States of America tried separating and a little war broke out.

[ August 30, 2005, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: HotlantaTarheel ]

LKSimcoe,

While i appreciate a good debate, please do not come here and say i don't know what i'm talking about and then just flat out say things that are not true on here. Here we go:

[quote] First of all, Quebec is the largest NET beneficiary of the Equalization Payments.
[/quote]Québec does not get as much as it should. This is not a PQ invention, this is even something Mister Charest is saying.

[quote] Second. For over 50 years, Quebec has had control over the vast majority of its finances. Quebec does not pay into the Canada Pension Plan, but manages its own, the QPP. And Quebec is the ONLY Province that doesn't submit any of it's Federal taxes. It keeps them all, along with your provincial taxes.
[/quote]that is simply not true. Québec is one of the most taxes places (if not THE most) because we pay to the provincial AND to the federal.. all in all in amounts to 15%.

[quote]And gas is also about 10 cents per litre higher than in Ontario. And it's all Provincial taxes, but BOO f**kING HOO, it's the nasty Englishman's fault. Kiss my ass. [/quote]wow. And to think this thread started in a civil matter. Maybe you should go for a walk or something. Calm down! No one talked about nasty englishmen except you. As i said in my earlier post, i do not want seperation as an act of hostility or negativity. I want both countries to survive and thrive. If that is what makes you angry, then i suggest you ask yourself the real reason why.

[quote] Third. Canada has done a f**k of a lot more than \"allow\" Quebecers to speak French. The original legislation that created Canada, the \"British North America Act\", passed in 1867, guaranteed Quebec its own language, school systems, and legal systems. [/quote]then trying to repress it. Read the whole story, not just the parts you like.

[quote] And now, no matter what part of the country you are in, you MUST be able to receive goverment services in both offical languages. [/quote]yes and i am against that. I believe that Canada should speak english and Québec should speak french. Whatever individuals learn on their own is to their own benefit. It's obvious that a large population of french Québecers learn english while the anglophones make no effort whatsover to learn french. After all, they don't need it.

[quote]Think that happens in Quebec? NOPE. French only. That's the law. [/quote]ever been to the Outaouais region? how about Montréal?

[quote] The Federal Government in Ottawa is now over 60% of people that claim French as their mother tongue. that's pretty f**kING good for a province that has less than 20% of the population.
[/quote]what does that have to do with anything? those people in the liberal party are against seperation.

[quote] I pay almost 25% more in taxes than my next door neighbour at the cottage simply because I live in Ontario.[/quote]why buy a cottage in Québec if it gets you that angry?

[quote] I am not permitted to receive my tax bill, or any other government communication in English, as Quebec passed bill 101, FORBIDDING the use of English in the Governement.
[/quote]this is simply not true. In fact, it is totally false. bill 101 has NOTHING to do with government communications. You should seriously go and read it. By the way, the Québec government web site offers services both in french and in english. All forms are in both languages and service is provided in both languages (i know, i've worked there).

[quote]It's a bunch of CRAP that Quebecers think they have been so hard done by for so many years. [/quote]sorry you feel this way.

[quote] DOn't get me wrong, I love Quebec. [/quote]of course you do! it's Québecers you don't like? or people with a different view than yours?

[quote] I have spent every summer there since I was born, and am bilingual BY CHOICE but if you think that you can do better outside of Canada, then don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. [/quote]i do think we can do just fine on our own, and apparently a large percentage of the population thinks so too. We will see, because i do believe it's going to happen.

[quote]Oh, and by the way. If you do leave. It will be like this.

Closed Borders
No Trade (no trade treaties)
No currency guarantees
No debt guarantees
No passport use
No international support or representation [/quote]no it won't. This is a Liberal SCARE tactic. Liberals are great at this.

Québec will do just fine on its own, IN a partnership with canada. Fortunately for Québec and Canada, you and your temper tantrums won't be the ones making the decision on business, partnership and how things will work post-seperation.

And i'll be celebrating in my backyard too.

Aquaman:

Of course Québec is not the only one. There are provinces on both sides of this argument.

My opinion is that sooner or later, Alberta will want to seperate also. They are already starting to talk about it.

I love Canada! Please don't break up! It'll make me cry! wink

LKsimcoe:

For reference purposes (and to back up what i say, as you probably can't back up the inventions you're spewing on here), i suggest you read this:

http://www.pq.org/nv/tmp/finance_quebec.pdf

along with the many responses by the liberals, financial experts, and the like in the following weeks after this report was released.

Although many people yelled, not 1 person could prove any data in this report wrong. In fact, most people said the report was very accurate.

I know you can read and speak french, so have fun. Then come back and say Québec will be in the hole in terms of finances. That's just laughable.

damn, Leph! If this goes through does this mean I'm gonna have to get a passport to see the Sabres in Montreal. :confused:

Makes my attempt to hit as many QJMHL venues as possible a bit more difficult.

I remember the '95 referendum and my eyes were transfixed to the TV set watching all of this.(Buffalo and surroundings get the CBC on cable)

If I remember correctly, it was not anglophones nor francophones that decided the referendum but immigrants from other countries who predominantly voted to stay Canadian that decided it.

One of the problems with the seperatist arguement has always been that they say they want Quebec to be indepenmdent of Canada but still want to be part of an economic union with Canada. I think that just muddies the issue both in Quebec itself and in the rest of Canada, who would of course have to agree to this economic arrangement. And yes, Quebec is a net beneficiary of transfer payments from the "have provinces", perhaps not as much as they feel they deserve but that is an arguement every Quebec government has made as well as 7 other provinces. I certainly have no desire to see Quebec leave Canada, but how many referendums do we have to go through. Its like a constant threat after every Quebec election, and I believe Quebec has suffered as a result. Many businesses think twice about operating in an area that many consider potentially politically and economically rocky. And of course who would Quebec politicians have to blame for their problems in an independent Quebec without Ottawa to bitch about. Gee, they might have to take full responsibility for their decisions.
Just because the possible new leader of the PQ is gay does not make his rhetoric any more sound. I also doubt that gay marriage would have happened much quicker than it did, even an independent Quebec would have had a judicial system that the arguements would have had to work through. I certainly would never vote for a leader or a party simply because the guy was gay.

Mariner duckboy:

The PQ can take power in 2007 if i'm not mistaken.. due to the liberals being in power in Québec right now. It was a big mistake the population made last election.. as now 8 out of 10 people are totally dissatisfied with the current government.

The PQ (unless the world explodes) will take power in 2007 and the leader (who will be determined this year in november.. there are currently about 8 candidates) will most likely declare a referendum right away.

Will Canada sit back and do nothing? probably not. Like last time where the Chretien government paid outrageous amounts of money to give the chance to people of the prairies to come to Montréal (15$ plane ride) to say how much they loved us Québecers

Whoever is in power at that time will most likely try and stop it (apparently the Canadian army was mobilized last time, but that's just rumours i think). If the Conservatives happened to be in power, they would probably encourage Québec to leave.

Blueraider

not at all. You will probably need the same thing you need now when you want to go see the Sabres in Montréal

Awesome, maybe we'll see each other this year.. i go on Q road trips all the time. Last season my maritimes trip got cancelled at the last minute, but this year i am planning to visit a few venues. Rimouski and Québec should be in the list again (it's awesome going there), as will Val D'Or and Rouyn. I suggested Lewiston to my friend, we'll see. BTW, ever been to the Guertin arena in Gatineau?


you are correct. The vote was decided by something like 40000 votes, and more than 50 000 immigrants were given the right to vote (even though they hadn't been in the country long enough) in the months leading up to the vote. In fact, in October 1995, DOUBLE the number of immigrants were registered to vote.. which is kinda odd.

I was one of the NO votes that year. Yes, i was raised in a Liberal family SCARED at what might happen, who might lose their job, etc..
Now i would vote YES, and so would some other of my family members.

In that 95 vote, Francophones voted YES at 60% i think.

[ August 30, 2005, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Leph28 ]

Swiminbuff:

I respect your opinion, but i will of course disagree with some points.

i agree with this 100% however. Québec HAS suffered because of the constant instability. The province as a whole has been stuck on this issue for years and years, therefore not focusing their efforts on where they should be.. in developing and looking to the future.

I would not vote for a candidate because he's gay or not either.. i was just pointing out that right now he is the clear favorite to win. He has a very large support base, and all polls show that he is very much in advance. HOWEVER, debates have not started and the leadership race is just starting.. there's plenty of time for things to change. Personnally i can vote for that race, and i will wait till the last minute to make my decision. I will choose the candidate who i feel will have the most chance to bring Québec to its goal.

Also, i am curious to find out why you and some others think that Québec is soooo beneficiating from the transfer payments? how do you figure that, and where are the numbers to support that? i'm just curious because i hear people say this all the time and numbers released in the Legault project clearly indicated that Québec would benefit from being seperated because of those exact transfer payments. Numbers that were confirmed by many sources.

You could check out the Federal Finance Ministry website under transfer payments.

Federal Transfers to Quebec
The Government of Canada provides financial support to the government of Quebec, most notably through the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), the Canada Social Transfer (CST), and Equalization.

It is estimated that in 2005-06, support through major transfers to Quebec will total nearly $15.6 billion (about $2,052 per person).
In 2004-2005, federal major transfers are estimated to account for about 26% of the province's revenues.

Federal Transfer payments

[ August 30, 2005, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: swiminbuff ]

which is 3rd lowest. For some provinces, it even goes up to the high 70's in terms of percentage.

The point is that there is a big problem in how much provinces put in and how much they get out. Québec has had its transfers back go down since the mid 90's while the surplus in Ottawa keeps on going up.

One of the many reasons (and that's just one of the many) that Québec wants to seperate is that they want total control over its own finances. I think the Legault report described accurately how Québec could survive and do just fine on its own, and it even accounted for their part of the debt paid back to Ottawa.

It's important to note that the financial aspect is also just one part of why Québec wants to seperate. As i mentioned in an earlier post, i think Alberta might even talk about it very soon.

Not that I ever want to see it happen, but in theory it would be interesting to see how independence played out. Maybe this time the question put to voters will be clear and understandable to all " Do you wish Quebec to leave Canada and become an independent nation" instead of the convoluted questions of the past.

I'm sort of reminded of when Newfoundland was an independent country in the 20's and 30's, went bankrupt and then back to being a colony before joining Canada.

On the whole I would say that Canada is a great country to be a part of, despite all the belly aching from the provinces. You will never convince me that Quebec or any other province has been hard done by, by being a part of Canada. As for separatist movements in the rest of Canada, I'm originally from Nova Scotia and I believe we started having seperatist movements almost as soon as we joined Canada in 1867. At the time we were a "have" province and didn't like sharing the wealth LOL. What goes around comes around I guess.
And yes,other provinces do receive transfer dollars from the Feds. Its no secret, only Alberta and Ontario are now considered "have " provinces.

I thought the USA was changing its regulations so you have to have a passport to get back into the country.

I believe they dropped the plan after a bit of a public outcry on the issue.

I thought it was a silly idea, customs officers usually ask you for photo id of some kind anyhow and that's it. The plan had all the making of another government scam to bring in some revenue.

I'd rather see Canada stay in one piece, not that I follow things all that closely. Yet it would be interesting to see how things would occur if Quebec did go alone.

Yes, and I vividly recall this prompted then-Premier Jacques Parizeau to bitterly blame \"money and the ethnic vote\" for the \"Oui\" side's narrow loss, a comment which did not go over well with many non-francophones; even Lucien Bouchard (Bloc Québecois leader at the time), to his credit, made a point of denouncing Parizeau.


The idea of the four western provinces separating (and especially Alberta) is nothing new, but a recent poll by Western Standard magazine claims that over 40% of Albertans and over 30% of other westerners support "exploring the possibility" of separation. I don't dispute the existence of western alienation, but I take those figures with a healthy dose of skepticism, considering the magazine is a rabidly right-wing, homophobic, anti-eastern publication. Reasons often cited for such separatist sentiment are the predominance of the Liberal party whose power base has always been eastern Canada, a paranoia that Ottawa will rob Alberta of its oil and gas revenue, the firearms registry and more recently same-sex marriage. Personally, I have nothing but disdain for Alberta separatists. They live here in the richest province with the lowest taxes and lowest unemployment, but have become Canada's biggest whiners and are never happy with ANYTHING the feds do. If there is ever a referendum on separation and the "Yes" side actually wins, I am OUT of here and will gladly return to my roots in south-eastern Ontario. Ironically, this Thursday, the two provinces with the highest support for separatism (Alberta and Saskatchewan) will be celebrating the 100th anniversary of their admission into the Canadian federation.

Getting back to the issue of Québec independence (or 'sovereignty', an often-used milder-sounding euphemism), I think it's important to keep in mind that a vote for the PQ or the Bloc does not always necessarily mean a vote for independence, but often a shrewd way of trying to get the best deal for Québec within Canada. Nonetheless, I'm sure the Bloc will do even better in the next federal election than they did last year, thanks largely due to the Liberal sponsorship scandal.

BTW, Leph, I haven't heard much about Mario Dumont and the Action-Démocratique lately...I know they won several seats in the last Québec election, but as a 'third party' are they making any gains in popular support?

One last point, on a related note for the benefit of U.S. Outsporters who may not be as familiar with this controversy...Michaëlle Jean, recently appointed as Governor-General, has been fighting off allegations that she and her husband are (or were) sympathetic to the Québec independence movement. Quite an irony, for someone who is supposed to be the representative of a British monarch!

A Canadian friend of mine from Edmonton who lives here said that if Québec were to gain independence, the western provinces would petition to become part of the United States. (What!!??)

I can't conceive of it.

swiminbuff:

bah, i think everyone knew that if they voted yes it meant yes to seperation and if they voted no it meant no to it. Sure it was a 4 line question, but people were not confused into voting what they didn't think wink

although he would eventually be proven right, the way he did it cost him his job.

His support has gone down slightly. The main reason being that he flip flops on certain issues and the visibility the ADQ has is practicly non-existent.

It's too bad, because i really like Dumont. I think he is an intelligent man with good ideas.

I want to point out that the only reason i vote PQ is because of seperation. I do not agree with alot of their issues. I do not agree with their constant siding with Unions on every issue. After seperation, there would be different partys, including probably the ADQ and i would vote for Dumont in a second.

The ADQ is still third behing PQ and Liberals right now.

Leph:

I apologize for being rude yesterday. I should have red what I wrote before I clicked on add reply.

I do agree with another poster that if there is another referendum, the question must be clear and concise. The question must also reflect that it is independance. For any government to propose "sovereignty association", or an "economic partnership" would only be correct if the rest of the country was in agreement, and I seriously doubt that the Canadian people would agree to any form of partnership should Quebecers vote yes. I beleive that the question that was proposed would be the correct one.

ANd with regards to the taxation, you are correct that Quebec is the highest taxed province, but the heaviest burden is the provincial taxes, ones that will not go away with independance. When you take the approx 15 Billion out of the equation that Quebec gets in transfer payments, the tax burden would indeed be even heavier.

I do agree with everyone on one point. This constant threat has hung over everyones heads for much too long. The question needs to be asked, and settled, no matter what.

And as for me having a cottage in QUebec, it is in the Gatineau region. It is a family cottage that has been in my family for 4 generations. My family has been spending summers there, and living there for over 100 years. My family has been living there longer than most. WHen my family first moved there, it was almost an exclusively English region, with the exception of the area directly around Hull. There are still English pockets.

Whenever I speak to a person in the local offices, there are very few people that can speak in English. While I can communicate quite well in French, the option should be open to me. And it's not. WHether it's a provinical or local matter is not the point. There is a significant minority in our area that are English, and the option should be available. That's only fair.

As for Quebec being French only, there are a large number of English speaking people in Quebec, not only in the Outaouis,(sic) but in Montreal, the Eastern Townships, the South Shore, and in the Gaspe. They have a right to receive communications in their mother tongue, just as a Franco-Manitoban in St Boniface has a right to talk to the Feds in French. To limit any region to one language would be counter-productive.

Anyway, Charest has 2.5 years to turn around public opinion. Personally, I don't think he'll stay that long, but time will tell.

No, no, no! This is still what we need to do:

It sounds to me like the separatists in Quebec and the Westerners have a problem with Ontario. Rather than separating, why don't they just gang up and ask Ontario to leave? wink

Seriously, though, I am just happy to have a political conversation on this board that doesn't revolve around Clinton or W or Saddam or Pat Robertson for a change.

Well if the Quebecois want to leave Canada to control their own finances, they'll have a lot less to control. I found a report from the Canadian Department of Finance on the Tax Foundation website (a non-partisan tax study group), it shows the amount each province gets back from the federal government in transfer payments in relation to how much it pays in....

Alberta: pays in $9.924 billion more than it gets (loss)
Ontario: $4.453 billion loss

PEI: $0.240 billion gain (gets back more)
Sask: $0.355 billion gain
BC: $0.862 billion gain
NFL: $0.866 billion gain
NewB: $1.184 billion gain
NS: $1.209 billion gain
Man: $1.238 billion gain
Quebec: $4.534 billion gain

Quebec by far benefits more from federal tax transfers than any other province.
http://www.ctf.ca/FN2003/chap08.pdf

Hotlanta Tarheel:

Correct: U.S. southern separation led to the civil war. I believe more Americans were killed there in than in the first, second, and Korean Wars combined. Not sure about Vietnam.

We are a very different people in very different times, and we do not have the same concept of "one nation indivisible." We have seen many European countries break up and reform (some with success, others with unspeakable disaster.)

In theory we are a people that believe in the right to self-determination, (but I have my doubts.) I have no doubts however, that active Quebec separation will lead to deaths. Hopefully just a handful. Realistically, who knows. We have an aversion to wasteful death.

We are incredibly intertwined as peoples. I'm resisting getting in to a long disertation, so I won't even start on the series of events that will someday lead to a Yes vote to begin active separation, but here are some of the circumstances of being intertwined:

Quebec hold somewhere around one quarter of the seats in Federal parliament. Those MPs are legally elected. Will the country stand for them negotiating separation terms? Will the ROC (rest of Canada) see this as conflict of interest?

The natives of Quebec overwhelmingly favour staying part of Canada. If Quebec has the right to self-determination, they will also claim it. Then what?

Quebec people contribute to the Armed Forces far more than their statistical share. Shall we talk about who controls the army, and how it would be split?

Pensions. Oy vey! The Federal civil service again is statistically more represented by Francophones than others, due to the fact that both languages are required and Quebecers have learned both languages more so than other Canadians. In the west, for instance, one's second language is more likely to be Mandarin, Cantonese, or Punjabi. These languages don't make you eligible for a civil service job.

Economics while in a state of acrtive separation. It won't be pretty. How long before some guy who lost his job goes postal? How long before domino effects, perhaps not in citizen against citizen violence, but in citizen riots against the government, which will be seen as "giving too much away/ corrupt / treasonous / settling for not 'our' fair share...."

America. Oh yeah, if things weren't messed up enough...Do you honestly think America will permit massive civil unrest above its undefended northern border? Especially, if at the time, the U.S. is finally out of Iraq and has soldiers to spare. Do you realize how much in natural resources and oil is sitting above America, and with a country in turmoil unable to hold it?

Civil War: ever heard the adage 'a house divided against itself cannot stand?' It won't be long before some idiot advocates joining the United States. And then some patriot will blow his head off. Wait for it.

In the long run, I believe Quebec would end up just fine. A unifed people with one language. Canada, however, is a delicate balancing act. There is a not insignificant chance it would end up a Northern Ireland five thousand miles long. Oh, and right above the U.S. border.

[quote]Joe in Philly:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Puschkin:
[qb] A Canadian friend of mine from Edmonton who lives here said that if Québec were to gain independence, the western provinces would petition to become part of the United States. (What!!??)

] [/quote]Ah Joe, we have fought (and won) several wars against this. It's one of those matters of historical pride that mention of causes people to go into the basement and clean grandma's gun.

Seriously, even the conservatives of Alberta are WAY too liberal to upset the voting balance of the U.S. An extra 23 million democrats???? Whatever "joining" your friend envisions, I doubt it would involve voting rights.

And furthermore, it's moot. See notation on grandma's gun, above....

Lksimcoe:

no prob, i know us Canadians and Québecers get really emotional sometimes when we're talking about politics. (or hockey)

i agree. As i said, last time i voted against seperation.. and i thought it was stupid to have a long ass question when everyone knew what the question was. I still think that now that i'm on the other side. Just ask: Vous voulez que Québec se sépare du Canada, en gardant une alliance économique et politique, oui ou non\". That's simple enough. If Québec are to seperate, they obviously have to keep an alliance with Canada, and both countries will have to help each other out. As i said earlier, Seperation is not about hate or wanting to get as far away from canada as possible. Both countries will need each other, whether people like it or not.

oh i disagree. I think both sides have much to offer to the other. I also think that after the initial anger and resentment by the population, the politicians would realize that it is important to work together.

Québec tax would probably go up to 15%, which is what both taxes together are right now. But economically and according to Legault projections, that should be fine to help Québec support the systems they want to support. I think it would be about the same taxwise for all residents.

cool, wherabouts is it? i presently live in gatineau, and there are really really nice areas around. Val des monts?

i find that weird, because i've worked at both levels of the government in the area, both provincial and federal, and all the offices i've worked from had fully bilingual people. In fact, most people worked using english as the work language because the anglophones didn't know french while all the french people knew english. I was a bit annoyed to be honest because all meetings would only be in english, and i figured that working in gatineau, they should at least be in french sometimes.

agreed. I know in Aylmer, 1/3 (if not more)of the population is english. Montreal (i've also lived there) has the whole west part of the island speaking english. There is a huge english population in Quebec.

this is where i disagree with you. Should people in Alberta or Saskatchewan have to know french to work for the government (in any client related area)? i don't think they should. Same for people in Québec city, Jonquiere, Abitibi, or any other area where people are overwhelmingly french. In fact, i am all for people knowing as many languages as they can (i am personally trying to learn a 3rd one right now), but i believe that Québec should be french and canada english. All secondary language would be bonus, not mandatory.

if he wants to turn things around, he has a heck of a whole lot of money to give out.. and not just to the Montreal jewish community wink

So basically what we gather from this is that Quebec seperatists are in effect anti-socialist and anti-federalist. Because from the statements above it seems to me "controlling your own finances" sounds like "I dont want some guy in poverty living in Alberta to get my hard earned Quebec tax dollars". Thats very capitalist of you so maybe Quebec can join up with the US so you can experience the full effects- like paying for your own health care and no government handouts.

And the laguage deal sounds like a cop out too. Speak your French, but learn English too. Get over it! The Brits won the country so you speak the language. Same deal in the US. If you want to come here and you speak Spanish or whatever else, learn English too! I kind of doubt if I moved to France theyd be too happy if I only wanted to speak English and they had to accomodate me and my lack of French abilities.

[ September 04, 2005, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: DallasUNC ]

umm.. have you ever been up this side of the border or was that just comments thrown in the air?

Despite the British "winning" the country, Québec is here, Québec is french, and Canada has 2 (count them, 2) official languages.
For your information, Canada was founded by both english AND french people. This is not a case of french people "moving" here and wanting to impose their language and culture.. this is a case of Québecers having been here since the start of the country and wanting to preserve their language and culture.

As for the health care and government "handouts", i'm personnally all for paying my own ways and having less taxes, but that has nothing to do with Québec wanting to seperate. Most people in the province do not share my line of thinking on these 2 issues.

"speak english, get over it?".. wow, if everyone thought like you do, we'd all be assimilated. Thankfully, Québecers have fought and still continue to fight to keep their language and culture. It is quite remarkable in my opinion that it has always managed to stay true to itself while totally surrounded by english people.

IMO, seperation is inevitable... and when it happens, Québecers will have claimed the country that is theirs.

[ September 05, 2005, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Leph28 ]

Yes, but when it happens, Quebecers will also have given up the country that is theirs as well.

It may be strange to you, but when I see the fleur de lis, I see my own flag. I know that it is not "mine" in the same way that it is yours, but, respectfully, I see my own flag.

Now I'm reading that Boisclair is on the ropes because of admitted cocaine use. Sounds like he's under a great deal of stress. Hope he doesn't turn into another Svend Robinson (the gay MP from BC who shoplifted a piece of jewellery).

"Cocaine is a b*tch!"--the late Rick James, on The Dave Chappelle Show

haha he must be dancing there, like Mohammed Ali.

You're underestimating the openness of Québecers..

In a poll this morning, Boislair gained 11%.

He's the CLEAR favorite to win the race.

Of course public opinion polls matter very little in a leadership race as its the party members that elect their own leader. And then in a general election everyone gets to cast their votes and poll leads can end very quickly. On a federal level examples include Brian Mulroney who won 2 federal elctions coming from more than 18% behind when election was called, and of course Kim Campbell who lost a 15% lead in a single day based on a dumb answer to a reporters question. In short, we shall have to wait til the fat lady sings to see how this all plays out.

actually, Boisclair is in the lead also within the PQ members. (which i'm a member of)

The only way i see him lose this race is if another smart candidate (like Legendre) steps up and pulls out all the charm he can muster.

Boisclair just has too many things going for him. He's young, gets the young vote. He's gay, gets the gay vote. He's made mistakes, gets the sympathy votes. He's got a degree from harvard, gets the votes of those who want a smart guy. It seems like he has everything going for him right now.

The only thing that could have seriously hurt him was the way he handled that cocaine thing on the news.. he seemed evasive and not firm enough, yet since that moment all i hear is that people don't care.

The only people who care about his past right now are liberals.

As I said before, we shall just have to see how it all plays out. There is a lot that has to happen before we revoke your passport wink

Originally posted by Leph75:

...For your information, Canada was founded by both english AND french people. This is not a case of french people "moving" here and wanting to impose their language and culture.. this is a case of Québecers having been here since the start of the country and wanting to preserve their language and culture...

Actually this sounds exactly like the southwestern US. Spain and Mexico founded this part of the country until the US went on its Manifest Destiny high horse.

Originally posted by Leph75:

..."speak english, get over it?".. wow, if everyone thought like you do, we'd all be assimilated. Thankfully, Québecers have fought and still continue to fight to keep their language and culture. It is quite remarkable in my opinion that it has always managed to stay true to itself while totally surrounded by english people...

Yeah, we hear this all the time when individuals speak Spanish w/out truly knowing the history of the southwest. Basically the US history has had, IMO, 3 huge phases of growth: colonization, the Louisiana Purchase, and the conquest of the southwest/west. All have unique & rich stories, peoples, cultures, that were encountered upon these geographical & national endeavors.

BTW, a very good friend of mine lives in Montreal (Mont Royal district). He's french Canadian & fears what will happen to the country if Quebec secedes. He said he'd probably move to Toronto. We'll see...I, too, love Canada especially Montreal & Quebec City (of course).

[ September 22, 2005, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: SCTrojan ]

The biggest obstacle the PQ and seperatists have to face is not education, it's not money, it's not social values. The biggest obstacle is fear.

Fear by the general population.

The liberals have led a campaign of fear for many years.

I believe that once people get the balls to actually go ahead with it, then the country (Québec) will prosper.

That's my opinion of course wink

You see what happens when a General fails to finish the drill? Wolfe's troops killed Montcalm, took Quebec and ostensibly ended Louis' ill fated ventures on this continent. But apparently it wasn't enough. They should've thrown the rest of the fur trappers on boats and shipped their arses back to gay Paris. :mad:

As far as some of us are concerned, the French have had no rights since they lost Quebec in 1758.

Enjoy your freedom.

God Save the Queen.

[ September 22, 2005, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: AU Tiger in ATL ]

thankfully, you're not concerned at all, and your opinion on the matter is irrelevant. FACT: Canada was founded by both french and english people. The original confederation had Ontario, Québec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.

Whether you understand this or not, Canada is presently a BILINGUAL country. France lost its rights back then, yes, but who cares.. the British don't have much either, the last colonial links with them were abolished in 1931. Now Canadians get visits from the Queen every now and then and it's about it.

yeah it's not going anywhere.

what does god have to do with anything?

BTW, i read your post "before editing" and pretty much know where you stand on french people. Nice to have met you too. wink

Openly gay Parti Quebecois leader Andre Boisclair is in a bit of a pickle (moreso in the English media; apparently this is not so much of an issue for French-speakers) for refusing "to retract or apologize for saying he was surprised to see so many students "with slanting eyes" as a student at Harvard University."

Story.

While I don't think he meant this in a racist way, and in fact he was praising the work ethic of Asian people, but why can't he call Asians "Asians." Why the "slanting eyes" ("les yeux brides" in French)? Clearly, a politician speaking in English couldn't get away with calling Asians "slanting eyes," although Boisclair claims this is not a derogatory term en fracais.

In a speech Boisclair said (translated from French):