It has just been confirmed that Saddam's sons Uday(his right hand man) and Qusay, along with his grandson were killed in a firefight with Special Forces!! This news will have ripple effects for all Iraqis, and throughout the immediate Arab region!! It definitely made a local Iraqi man, $30 million richer today, as each of Saddam's sons had a $15 million bounty for information leading to their whereabouts! eek!

Having been honorably discharged a few years ago, and having several friends in Iraq right now, I am very pleased with this information. Especially with Uday being killed, because he was directly linked to orchestrating the guerilla attacks(murders, I would say) on our soldiers over there, as well as the previous massacres of his own people!! Although the attacks may not stop completely, I think that with the Queen Bee(so to speak) being eliminated, the attacks will at least slow down!!

The Link is below!!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/07/22/...sons/index.html

[ July 22, 2003, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: SmoothRon ]

bring um on.

Good news, though I'm sure this will be a bit macho for Dick Gephardt's tastes.

I will believe this story when there is confirmation from more than the army command. So far not even the WH (which usually trumpets news like this asap) has confirmed it to be true.

The bodies were said to have a "strong resemblance" to the two sons. What? they can't even do a comparison with images of the sons? God knows we have plenty of pics and video of the two.

secondly, they were captured in Mosul. A Kurd controlled part of Iraq that would be one of the most Saddam hostile parts of Iraq and where US forces have the most control.

I find it hard to believe that his two sons would voluntarily hide out in kurdish territory.

So do we have gin yet?

ung- that is the very reason that they hid out in that area, because it was one of the few areas where the coalition forces would likely suspect them to be. The reports stated that the compound where the firefight took place was the home of one of Saddam's relatives. I do think that the Iraqi people will want physical proof that they are indeed dead though, because they have been misled before.

Exactly! already since the war we have TWICE declared Saddam dead. Only to have him resurface like Lord Voldemort time and time again. (that's a Harry Potter reference y'all)

as of last reckoning, Saddam was alive and producing mixed tapes like some weird VJ in a Baghdad basement mocking the US. So far we have just as much evidence as previous claims that the sons are dead.

and if we use the logic of "they were hiding out where they would least likely be" ... well then.... they should have hitched a ride to Lancaster Pennsylvania. Cuz we certainly would not expect to find them there.

One other thing..... if you read the account of the battle in various sources the details fluctuate wildly. The battle's very duration is reported as 2 hours long by one, 3 hours by another and 6 hours by yet another.
The details and what happened are very sketchy as of yet.

Confirmed


I feel somewhat confident that Bo and Luke Hussein have Saddam-ized their last Iraqi.

Ung, don't be such a clinic!

Damn. $15 million big ones for each of the sons?

Is it too late to say: "They're in Iraq, sir. Certified checks only. And Saddam- Iraq, too, sir. Wire it to my savings account. Thank you"

They've got the results of the DNA test already?

I really hope they pay the informant his $30 million. He can help rebuild all the shit we've blown up.

They're supposedly doing the DNA tests now, but Saddam's old right-hand freakazoid supposedly ID'ed them. If it is them (and grandsonsaddam), the troops ALL DESERVE A HUGE RAISE! Now get Saddam and get OUT OF THERE!

The US military hierarchy in Iraq will confirm to all of the Iraqi citizens tomorrow that Saddam's sons are indeed dead. They apparently will display pictures of the bodies all over the country. The citizens are extremely skeptical because they have been similarly misled before. This world is a much better place without these MONSTERS in it. They raped, mutilitated, tortured, and massacred many Iraqis. They even initiated the 14 yr old grandson(who was also killed today) to commit his first murder at the young tender age of 11!! They will not be missed! :mad:

Apparently, confirmation is now official. Indeed, positive verification on one of the sons was made by identifying, among other things, of course, his bullet wound he suffered after a failed assassination attempt of a few years back.

Finally, some good news from Iraq, and a morale boost to the troops.

[ July 23, 2003, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: MIB ]

I find it hard to call it good news. Yes, two tyrants in training (and perhaps a third) are no longer able to menace their people, but I don't believe we should be celebrating death at all. It is a pity that we weren't able (or perhaps never intended) to take them alive, because I would prefer they stand for their crimes against humanity, as the Nazi leadership did. They might also have provided information on exactly what was going on with the WMD program, and we could settle the questions once and for all.

I disagree. If they are in fact dead, that is good news.

I'm just wondering..... how did just 4 people (one of them a 14 year old) hold off the US army in an "intense firefight" for 6 hours?

Good question, ung. My understanding is the Army didn't push all that hard, they just tried to wear them down. It was still intense, I'm sure, but I think the Army paced itself. That's my understanding, anyway.

Soooooo... you got three adults and one kid in a house. surrounded by the best in modern military firepower.... over a 6 hour period.... and "pacing themsleves" to wear them down.... So how is that an "intense firefight"?

Unless those inside the house had missiles piled up to the roof (like what you see in a Bugs Bunny Cartoon), How can they have enough firepower for such a scenario?

and if it would have been so advantageous for us to capture the two sons (as opposed to killing them) why couldn't we wait a couple of hours for them to exhaust their weapons and/or get tired?

[ July 23, 2003, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: ung ]

My thoughts exactly, Ung. I saw part of our General's briefing on the event which included a detailed blow by blow account of every weapon system and vehicle we employed. How in the world can four people defend against that for so long? Something just doesn't add up. It's not like a hostage situation where we tried to negotiate a safe outcome. Once again, it seems like we only get part of the story.

Tell that to the families of the females (some as young as 12-13, some were brides on their wedding day taken screaming from the church)-that the brothers systematically raped & then killed. Check todays (Wed.) NY Times for the story.

Has anyone considered that perhaps, just maybe, Bo and Luke Hussein were already dead, and have been dead for some time, and CentComm just held onto the bodies until a time when their "deaths" would be of maximum political advantage to President Bush? I mean, this is a rather convenient time for this news to pop up, given the rather difficult couple of weeks President Bush has experienced. Just a thought...

Of course this is bad news for you, have you been openly rooting for sadaam all along

[ July 23, 2003, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]

Or maybe Bo and Luke died during a particularly vigorous bout of auto-erotic asphyxiation (ala Michael Hutchence, I believe) and the military staged this whole "intense firefight" as a compassionate gesture to make the boys' deaths seem less humiliating. Anything can happen with W. in charge...

I completely understand they were heinous criminals - but death is ugly, death is horrible, and death should be a last resort when nothing else will work. Even then, we should not be celebrating that we had to kill these two human beings. It may have been the right thing to do morally, it may have been the strategic thing to do militarily and it might have been the only thing to do given the circumstances, but it should not be celebrated. We don't (or shouldn't) celebrate when the death penalty is meted out in this country either. Any time we are forced to kill a human being to make them 1) pay for their crime or 2) stop their crimes then we are marking a failure of humanity.

I don't believe all people who do evil things are necessarily themselves evil, because that is too easy. Almost all people who have done evil things are human beings who, for one reason or another, have allowed the worst parts of themselves to rule their lives. Anytime that happens it is a horrible thing and should be mourned. If we do not want to mourn these two adult tyrants, or their teenage protoge, let's mourn the children they all once were - when they had a chance to be productive in their societies - before their humanity was systematically drummed out of them.

I sincerely hope, Phillyfan, that this was some kind of horrible twisted joke on your part. If not, I would suggest you have some proof that I am a traitor before you call me one. I have NEVER routed for Saddam or any member of his family, but I do decry the tendency for people to so villify any opponent in a war that we forget they too are human beings.

[quote]CPT_Doom:
[QUOTE]I sincerely hope, Phillyfan, that this was some kind of horrible twisted joke on your part. [/quote]Are you implying i would post someting i didnt believe? me, never.... heh..

I believe the children are our future, blah-blah-blah, but I think this is a very westernish analysis of this particular situation. Inasmuch as Bo and Luke had the misfortune of having Saddam Hussein as a father, they are to be pitied. But do you really think they ever had a chance to be productive members of society? If they had defied their father, they would have undoubtedly been killed. Moreover, they were somewhat productive members of their society. Their society produced murder, mayhem, rape, torture, etc, and they were big producers of it. I just don't think this is any time to get all sentimental.

I am not getting all \"sentimental\" about them, just pointing out that I don't believe death and killing should ever be celebrated. And I don't believe that we can argue Iraqi society has only produced \"murder, mayhem, rape, torture, etc.\" This is the cradle of civilization we are talking about, and Hussein is a part only of its recent history.

As I stated above, it is far too easy (and I believe too common on the part of this Administration) to regard one's \"enemies\" as vicious, violent and useless people, no matter who they are or their rank in the respective society. That kind of thinking may be necessary in order to invade a country and kill its soldiers, but it is also responsible for the reprehensible discrimination against the Japanese during WWII and against Muslims today.

If we are to be the leaders of the world, then we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard, and I believe that means acknowledging that there was certainly good in Iraqi society - the lawyer who alerted US soldiers to Private Lynch's whereabouts being a prime example.

If you are trying to be funny Phillyfan, it is not working. That kind of broadside against someone who is merely making a different point than yours is exactly what is wrong with political debate in this country.

PhillyFan & William1865- For once, I agree with the both of you. How Capt. Doom can be insensitive for the countless Iraqis who have lost their lives, limbs, and their sanity(orchestrated by the murders, tortures, rapes, etc, of Uday & Qusay) is beyond me. Capt. Doom, why do you think so many Iraqis were dancing in the streets yesterday!! These two gentlemen were the most feared men in their entire country. They were more feared than Saddam, himself!!

I, and I am pretty sure the majority of the posters on this board, will not shed a tear for these feared "Monsters of Terror"!!!

The story about Uday's human "paper" shredding machine was really eye-opening!! For those who dared to defy him, he would throw the person head first(quicker death)into this giant shredding machine, if he didn't have very much time to watch. But if he was really pissed off, he would them the person in feet first(guiding them in while holding their hair, which resulted a slower, more painful, death!! He was just a totally evil person all the way around. The family of all those who died, or those who were fortunate enough to live through the torture or maiming, should have your sympathy, Capt. Doom, not these so-called human beings!!

[ July 23, 2003, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: SmoothRon ]

So Iraq was the cradle of civilization a billion years ago, thus we should have some sort of mournful sympathy for Ebay and Yoodelay as representatives of a world gone mad? I don't think so. They were bad, bad people. And with all due respect, stuff like this is why I (and I suspect a majority of Americans) are glad we have a badass Republican cowboy in the White House and not some egghead Democrat. Sitting around moping about the nuances of good and evil and the philosophical ramifications of modern society and its effects on the children of ruthless dictators (who, awful as they may seem, are still from the cradle of civiliaztion, so c'mon, how bad can they be?) wouldn't do us any good when the truly evil guys are crashing jumbo jets into our buildings and crafting weapons programs designed to destroy us and our allies. Given the choice between every argument that's ever been made against this war and the words "Bring 'em on," I'm with W.

Perhaps Holocaust survivors should have mourned the child that Hitler once was too.

Sorry but give me some tap shoes, I've got some grave dancing to do.

My Lord in heaven! - I am sorry if I find the idea of still more slaughter after decades of slaughter to be cause for sadness and not for celebration. I am sorry that my human compassion is still working.

I feel for the Iraqi people who had to go through this hell for the last 30 years with no help from the West until it was finally in our financial interest, and then we still hung them out to dry! I am sorry that successive Presidents, under the guise of what was America's "best interest" continued to do business with this thug until 1990. I feel for our soldiers who have to kill and maim just to protect themselves and because their Commander-in-Chief has ordered them to.

I am sorry that I feel dancing on graves is disgusting and counter-productive. I refused to "celebrate" when Gulf War I ended, and I won't "celebrate" this wonderful victory either. War may be a necessity (and I am not convinced this one was) but it should NEVER be glorified!

I guess I am just not gung ho enough. I guess I am a traitor to my country because I find death depressing and horrible, no matter who it happens to.

And yes, I would hope that everyone would mourn the child who became Hitler, or Stalin, or the dictators of Burma, Argentina and China. I mourn for the child who became the UnaBomber, or a serial killer. All of those children had the chance to be decent human beings and for some reason did not. If we do not examine the reasons why, if we fail to see that at some point these people had humanity, then we guarantee there will be still more like them down the road.

Until we admit that human beings are the cause of death and destruction in this world, and not some nameless, faceless "evil," we will never be able to improve our civilization.

Look. I'm not trying to minimize your feelings. I think what you say has a noble feeling behind it.

However! remember when you said that criticizing Bush does not mean we are pro-Saddam? we had to make sure that Bushies didn't make that assumption?

Likewise, you can't assume that those who are glad to see two murdering scum get the just rewards are "dancing on the graves" of humanity.

When the butchers of Nazi germany or Imperial Japan were killed, we were glad. When Idi Amin was stopped we were glad. When Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge were toppled, we were glad.

Being glad to see a monster stopped from killing is not a bad thing. And it is not "yet more slaughter". This will actually stop future slaughter.

yes? no?

Waco.

Ung, I never said I thought these guys were wonderful and should have been spared. I simply have a problem with people celebrating their deaths. To me it is two more bodies on top of the thousands already dead.

I do believe it is a positive thing overall for the Iraqi people that the government is gone, albeit through means I find wrong. But thinking that the ouster is a positive thing is much different from doing a happy dance that the body count has increased.

I am appalled when people celebrate the execution of murderers here in America. I was appalled at some of my parents very liberal friends who were happy that Reagan got shot (thankfully my parents were also appalled). And I am appalled by Americans celebrating the deaths of these two men. Yes they did horrible things, but our government has known that for years and did nothing. Right now the citizens of Burma, N. Korea, China and certain former Soviet republics live under oppressive, cruel and hateful regimes, but we don't care about them.

Our forces may have done the job in Iraq, and that job may have been necessary. But is not glorious and it is not wonderful, and it is unseemly of us to make it so.

Is there any documentation for the existence of this shredder? Weblogs do not count. No mention of it was made in this Wahington Post account of the sons this morning, though other accounts of their cruelty were not lacking.



[ July 23, 2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]

So does the US.

Actually, the chief butcher of Imperial Japan was allowed not only to survive, but to reign well into his later years--Emperor Hirohito.

The issue of Saddam and his progeny being tried is an interesting one; I mean, shouldn't the Iraqi people have the opportunity to put this unspeakable troika before its own court of judgment? Perhaps they'll get that with Saddam...that is, if his body doesn't conveniently turn up after a "firefight" right before W's poll numbers hit the low 40s.

Overall, though, it's good they're gone.

BTW, doesn't Saddam have a wife and other kids? Has the US taken them into custody to "pry" info--or get the Mossad to do so--out of them?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Jul22.html

Also from CPT_Doom (earlier in the thread):

"If you are trying to be funny Phillyfan, it is not working. That kind of broadside against someone who is merely making a different point than yours is exactly what is wrong with political debate in this country."

So, CPT, you take umbrage at PF's joking reference to your support of Saddam Hussein, yet you feel perfectly comfortable questioning the moral integrity and compassion of those who are "merely making a different point than yours"? This is "exactly what is wrong with political debate in this country."

When people like this die, it's so hard to find the right words.... wait, no its not - enjoy your toasy corner of hell you thugs.

No William, I questioned the moral integrity and compassion of those who questioned my moral integrity and compassion.

Well this is quite a vicious circle you've got going on here. At any rate, you said, "I am sorry that my human compassion is still working," suggesting that others' human compassion was not functioning.

TWIN 58---How does the US even compare to Saddam Hussein in these categories??????? :confused:

Really, after the death of these murderers (nothing else you can call them), you still see the open rooting for more dead US soldiers... and more rooting for the sadaam clan... how else can you explain it, i mean comparing our society to Iraq?

By killing the leaders of the opposition you are saving US soldier lives. So to be critical of this cleaning out, yes you are openly rooting for us to lose the war, which in turn causes more dead soldiers...

Perhaps some of you should really think about a move to Liberia for a day or 2, then get back to PF on what is safe and what is not.

If you look at my first post, you will see I favored capturing and trial over murdering them, I don't see where that would have cost any more lives than killing them, as many people predicted the attacks on our soldiers would increase, at least in the short term, after their deaths.

The theory that the death of two thugs was going to end attacks on US forces seems already disproven by the latest casualties. What has to be done now -- tho I don't expect it to be, least of all by the current bunch of opportunistic frauds -- is to remain in Iraq until there is no longer a situation in which "a new Hussein" can seize power.

[ July 24, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Bill W ]

Whoever said that it would "end" the attacks on U.S. troops? No one serious that I know of. Maybe a Saddam-nostalgic Dem candidate setting up a straw man to knock down?