Has anyone come across this book by Strupp yet? Supposedly it's based on compiled facts about us God's-Gift-to-the-Worlders.

Boston Globe: The below-average American

fantomas, does your contempt for Americans and the United States know any bounds?

Something that's wrong with the United States or some horrible crime we've committed against mankind is in almost everyone of your posts.

Well, what do you expect from a country that has George W Punk-Ass-Chimp Bush as it's leader?

I have to agree. Examples ...

My 19 year old co-worker never heard of the Sistine Chapel. He always thought it was the Sixteen Chapel.

At Ballys, I love seeing people trying to lose weight and watch them drinks these "sport drinks" filled with carbs and sugar. Smart. :mad:

I was helping out in a variety show and I was telling this music major to wait until the intro of the William Tell Overture ends and then speak your lines. He asked me what the William Tell Overture was. I wasn't in the best mood and I screamed at him, It's the f**king Lone Ranger theme song! He looked at me and said, "Well, why didn't you tell me that? Duh!" :mad:

Wrong! Actually, of my posts yesterday, I think one was on the Yankees' acquisition of A-Rod, and another was finding a way to praise John Kerry. Is this one hitting a bit close to home for you?

That's my favorite John Hughes movie. I just looove Molly Ringwald.

ROTFLMAO -- thanks, twin.,

Hey! I thought *I* was the leading anti-American on this site! [Crosses arms and pouts]

This isn't any surprise, is it? Americans are notoriously insular, culturally ignorant and so forth. I like the lines from Crowded House's Chocolate Cake:

And PCC obviously failed to see that I wrote "we" in my first post--because despite our wacky president, despite our fractious history, despite the fact that we now stand confidently and nervously astride the entire world, I have to echo H. L. Mencken in that earlier link: I am an American too.

I think this is funny as hell. Americans have the mentality that they shouldn't care because it is unimportant and doesn't fit into their daily lives.

If you hypothetically go to the feed store in Bozart or some other rural area and start asking about Israel or about Earth's yearly revolution around the sun, they would look at you crazy and ask you about the feed, or what Jim Bob down the street said about so and so.

Perhaps ze book vas writteen by ze vacky Canadian comeek Triumph ze Insult Comeek Moose?

Is it any surprise when most Americans won't eat fruit that has DNA?

The worst lie ever perpetrated in the US is that musical theatre is culture.

Take comfort in the fact that Europeans mistook advertisement of "Independence Day" as a real life alien invasion.

Yeah, but we probably won't know anything about the feed, how to keep a cow alive, how to tend to the crops, or even know where Bozart is, these simple things that's a necessity to an agricultural nation because its unimportant and doesnt fit into our daily lives. He's be looking at us like, "ya city-folk moron, ya don know noth'n 'bout Jim BOb, but ya know 'bout Paris Hilton?!"

[ February 16, 2004, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: savvy ]

I can't say I disagree with the findings, but I can't think of another place I would rather live and die....cept' maybe Canada.

I also agree there is way too much false bravado among American's, but...

What's the point of this "finding" anyway?

Is the writer suggesting other countries scored higher?

Where is your Utopia if its not the USA?

Why do so many people in our World risk life and limb to get here?

Even with all of our problems, there is no other place I would want to live.

We have the best and the worst there is to offer society. We have freedoms that the majority of the world's population can only imagine.

You think its tough being gay in America? Racial, ethnic, religious and cultural intolerance is rampant in Eastern/Western Europe, Asia, and Australia. Homophobia is too.

Don't look at the rest of the world through rose colored glasses folks....the grass isn't as green over there (wherever that may be).

NJ

[ February 16, 2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: NathanJones ]

All of this is true. And some examples of our growing stupidity:

Knew a guy a few yrs ago who "graduated" from high school and didnt know who Fidel Castro was.

Said in a gay chat room recently- "so why are they having all these votes now if the presidential election isnt until November?"

Have met MANY people online who do not know the postal codes for states. If I said I was from NC at the time they used to respond "North Colorado?".

I also work for a company who still allows people within our export departments around the country to book cargo coming from AK (where they mean Arkansas).

I had someone ask me once "so what day of the week is Good Friday on?" or alternately "what day of the week is Ash Wednesday?".

I used the term "HR" (human resources) and an elementary teacher asked me what that was and that he had never heard it in his life.

Last but not least..people still worship Michael Jackson.

[ February 16, 2004, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: DallasUNC ]

NathanJones wrote:
Even with all of our problems, there is no other place I would want to live.

We have the best and the worst there is to offer society.

We have freedoms that the majority of the world's population can only imagine.

You think its tough being gay in America? Racial, ethnic, religious and cultural intolerance is rampant in Eastern/Western Europe, Asia, and Australia. Homophobia is too.

Don't look at the rest of the world through rose colored glasses folks....the grass isn't as green over there (wherever that may be).

Thanks for this reminder of reality - we need to "hold these truths as self evident." We are considered the most arrogant nation on Earth, and we are - but for all the right reasons - and there is no more self-critical population anywhere.

We constantly point out our flaws - the article that started this thread is point in fact - and yet if given a choice the vast majority of people around the world would rather be here.

I once heard Tom Friedman quote an un-named Indian politician’s opinion about how the world viewed America, he said - "Yankee Go Home...and take me with you."

My favorite is when a buddy of mine wasn't allowed to make a bank deposit in Indiana with just his New Mexico drivers license. The teller asked for his green card because she thought he was a foreigner.

Western Europe. Maybe not "Utopia"--such a place is a fiction--but with the exception of the lack of baseball, superior to the US in every way, in my not at all humble opinion. Scandanavia, France, Holland, Spain, the UK, Italy, Germany, the Czech Republic: they kick ass on the US.

She must have got that state mixed up with Old Mexico. Reminds me of the time I was visiting family from a small town in Missouri. I am half Fillipino and apparently that is not a very common thing in Missouri, my cousin's best friend seriously asked me if I was Jamaican, then somehow I got the nickname Seattle Sound, whatever that's supposed to be.

"Hey, there's a new Mexico!"

- Homer Simpson

American culture and influence is everywhere. It only makes sense that other developed nations would know more about us than we know about them. Canadian TV isn't on my cable system; German movies aren't playing in every cinema in my city; French isn't the language used most commonly among people of different nationalities.

By the way, in the "most livable" countries rankings that people of many other Western nations like to quote to us, we ranked No. 7 for 2003.

The only country that was a bit of a surprise on that top 25 list was Israel. But perhaps the fear of being killed by suicide bombers wasn't factored into the quality of life. I also thought Canada, Denmark and New Zealand would rank somewhat higher than they did.

Along the same lines as the experiences mentioned by CNSea and Rupert...back in the 80's, a friend and I were on our way home from California. Somewhere around San Bernardino, a state trooper pulled us over and demanded to know who we were, where we had been, etc. The licence plate on the car apparently made him suspicious, as he also asked 'where is Alberta'? Once he was satisfied we were Canadians, he waved us off. We had a good laugh about it later...my theory was that the cop thought Alberta might be a state within Mexico and that we were in the US illegally.

You'll be glad to know that Canada was No. 2 the preceding year, if I'm remembering correctly. I have some Canadian friends who, year after year, bragged to me about the ranking, so I couldn't help but share 2003's numbers with them.

So what if there are few americans don't know world facts, or even simple facts they should... why is it a big deal? why is it a big deal that americans are heavier than most people in the world? I don't give a CRAP. This country is good. Better than any country out there, and better people than any citizens outside this 50 states. We have flaws in our judicial system, but it is BETTER anywhere else. I came to this country almost 20 years ago for a better life, and darn it, this country made it possible. So for those of you who like to knit pick every fault of this country, GET OUT and don't come back. Because I'd rather have a fat, dumb neighbor than you pricks you think this country and it's people a waste.

Most of these surveys are BS, IMHO, and they often don't take into account the knowledge base that many people do have - for instance the comments about feed stores above. If I live in a ranching community in the middle of the Plains and have not interest in moving or changing my life, the name of the President of France really isn't that important.

At the same time, I think reactions like jeffrey3410 may be why people keep printing these stories. Many Americans react so strongly to any criticism of the country that they fail to see it can be improved. With the globe shrinking and our lives so wrapped up in the lives of many other nations, we cannot afford to simply ignore the fact that many Americans are not getting the education, nor any admiration for, or love of, political issues/players that we probably should.

For me, the attitude about America should not be "Love it or Leave it," it should be "Love it Enough to Make it Better."

One of the few things I remember from Sunday School has stuck with me all my life:

Luke 6:42

It fits so well in so many situations. I always keep that scripture in mind when ever I become too critical of another....I wish other people would too.

NJ

Uh :confused: Eastern Europe and Asia I can understand, even Western Europe - but Australia??? Of course I won't deny that there are racial, ethnic, religious and cultural intolerance here - but rampant? Hmmmm. Maybe qualifications on this statement are needed

I note that Australia ranks No 4 - but possibly the rampant racial, ethnic, religious and cultural intolerance have not been taken into consideration wink .

Now, see, this is where I have a bit of an issue. Blanket statements without any real basis for being made. "BETTER" than anywhere else? I'm rather proud of our juidicial system in Australia, particularly our High Court which after 200 years of colonisation, overturned the legal fiction of terra nullius which basically said that when Australia was colonised in the 1700's, the land was not populated, which conveniently dismissed over 40,000 years of Aboriginal Australian occupation prior to white settlement. Whilst it still is an ongoing battle for indigenous peoples in Australia, at least we have a legal precedence which basically says that indigenous peoples may have, in certain instances, "native" title to traditional land. Now this is only one instance of the progressive nature of the Australian judicial system. Again I won't deny that we still have flaws, but I would never say that we have a better system than anyone else.

Hey, I love Australia, but....

here ya go...

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/5535

http://library.trinity.wa.edu.au/issues/racism.htm

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=517

NJ

[ February 17, 2004, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: NathanJones ]

I am saying it again--- YOU NOT HAPPY??? GET OUT!

In response to NathanJones, your links still don't prove that racism et al is "rampant" in Australia. As a gay man working in a conservative industry, also as a gay black male working in a conservative industry, very rarely do I come across the rampant issues that you raise. That of course is my personal experience, but even generally speaking, Australia is quite a tolerant and safer society than, dare I say, the US, for a non-WASP gay male.

Oh no question about that, especially on the safer part...I totally agree with you.....I was only suggesting that very few countries can claim to have a utopian society that joins hands and sings kumbaya in perfect harmony....the United States in NOT alone was my point. People love to be critical of the USA, but its not just us...thats all I meant.

NJ

I want to dignfify this Fat, Dumb american stereotype. Most of these 'fat' 'dumb' americans are hard workers, making sure their children eat, have a roof over their head, drive a half way decent car, save money for their retirement... and all along, pays taxes so that we police this world so no nuke would land and kill millions of people, whether it is France, or Zimbabwe. So what if they don't know 'Sistine Chapel'... would that knowledge get them along the day? Do you think the French know the Libery bell? Exactly... Do you think that most citizens of the 3rd world nation know how many planets are there in the solar system, because new flash... many are illiterate. I was raised to believe that americans were inferior, and when I came here, it was all propaganda. Americans are hard workers, bright, innovative, caring. I believe that. And if the media are happier to call their fellow americans fat and dumb, then I think they are obliged to keep using the other stereotypes for other countries.
Hmmm... please name me a country with a better judicial system with comparable size of this country, wide range of economic status, and with very high number of immigrants from many countries... I really want to know.

And for the rest of those who still like to put this country down--- ask the immigrants who stayed here. Ask the ones from western europe since these are the countries that they like to compare USofA. If they tell you this country sucks, then why the heck are they still here. Then tell me, what country is better overall... Seriously, I am curious.

Excuse me, but I and many Americans aren't going anywhere. And before you arrived here 20 years ago, my tax dollars were underwriting the arrival of many other immigrants who arrived on these shores, so I am going to say what I feel, as every American should.

The point is not that people don't know about the Sistine Chapel or when the Continental Congress met (though that would be helpful), but that they can't even identify this country on a map! We have soldiers fighting in a foreign country that many Americans have no idea about, which is outrageous. We give over a billion dollars to a country that many Americans cannot identify on a map. This is a problem! If Americans were better informed, if we had a better educational system, then we probably would, as a nation, make better choices in terms of our leaders, our policies, and where we're going as a country.

In terms of obesity, it saps billions of dollars every year in terms of lost productivity, higher health costs, increased rates of chronic illness (especially diabetes, heart disease, and colorectal cancers), and consumed energy and environmental resources. Before you got here, 20 years ago, the American obesity levels and rates of obesity were much lower, but we are getting fatter and fatter and it is seriously harming us as a country.

I'm not sure what country you fled, but seriously, one thing you should remember is that the one you arrived in, that you're living in now, has a long tradition of dissent--like, FROM THE BEGINNING--and it is the right of every American to speak out in the public sphere as she or he sees fit. We don't HAVE TO GET OUT if we don't worship or praise the country--this ain't Russia, it ain't East Germany, it ain't Zimbabwe, it ain't Cuba--we did away with that kind of wacko absolutism when we broke away from King George, set up a democratic republic with a written constitution (unlike the United Kingdom's), and defended these rights, beginning in 1776.

[ February 17, 2004, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Oh the irony of Jeffrey3410 telling us natives to get out, when some of the people with the same "America-Love or it Leave it" attitude would not take kindly to an foreigner being here at all.

I've said it here before, but I'd leave and move to England/the UK faster than you could say "renounce citzenship" if I could find a job over there. I try all the time but since my job (secretary) is not one that overseas companies recruit for, I'm almost going to have to become an illegal alien to do it. The only thing I'd miss about the US is baseball.

And Jeffrey, if I could be bothered, I'd dig up a bunch of stats showing why other countries are "better" than the US in terms of measurable quality of life issues (literacy, infant mortality rate etc.). Culturally, there's no contest whatsoever: Europe is light years ahead of the US. I think a lot of black men in the US would strongly debate your praise of the US justice system.

More: I'd weep but I'm not shocked: The low regard that religion is held in most of Europe is another reason why I think it's "better".

Speaking of irony, I'm betting perceived "intolerance" in the States is one reason you want to flee — yet you readily ridicule/disregard anyone with religious convictions.

And as far as Europe's regard for religion is concerned, it will be interesting to see where things are in places like France in 50 years, considering the ever-growing number of Muslims there. The push for sharia law might arrive sooner than they expected.

[ February 18, 2004, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: SportsOutdoorsGA ]

Speaking of irony, it's odd to see someone complaining of Jim's intolerance of religion trotting out the ideas of the xenophobic European right.

You're implying I'm claiming to be some poster boy for tolerance when that wasn't my statement. I apparently wasn't clear enough. My point was that most people who complain about this country the loudest talk about its alleged intolerance. But then those are typically the same people who don't have any respect for people whose religious beliefs, if any, are connected with Christianity.

But do you dispute the fact that the number of Muslims is on the rise in Western Europe? I said nothing about whether it's OK for them to live there or exercise their beliefs. My point was that, if Europe is such a utopia for its lack of religion, then do you simply ignore the presence of Muslims and their religious faith? Or are the non-Muslim Europeans the only ones who matter?

If you want to steer the topic in that direction, I'd be interested in hearing your take on the differences between the fundamentalist extremists of Islam and the fundamentalist extremists of Christianity (e.g., the Jerry Faldwells and the Pat Robertsons). They seem to me to both lack respect for individual freedoms. Unfortunately, conservatives usually give the latter a pass and liberals usually give the former a pass.

[ February 18, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: SportsOutdoorsGA ]

SportsOutdoorsGA, what I meant by "held in low regard" is that due to centuries of appallingly devasting religious wars, Europeans in general don't give organized religion the same latitude to influence public policy as we do here. I'll speak of England, which I know best: George Bush's "born-again" status and constant use of religious/Biblical imagery isn't all that unusual here. But when Tony Blair tries the same thing, he's widely mocked for being a "god-botherer".

When you've had close to 250 years or so (starting in 1534, when Henry VIII broke with Rome) of brutal--and I mean, some of the worst inhumanities ever perpetuated on fellow humans--religious wars, you tend to be a LOT more sceptical about religion's place in public and politicians that espouse a particular religious ideology. The US has nothing even remotely comparable to the Catholic/Protestant Wars in Britain or the hideously brutal French Wars of Religion (ca. 1560-1600) between the Catholics and Heugenots. That's all; although I loathe religion for myriad reasons, I'm in no way advocating it be banned or whatnot. I'm just more comfortable in Europe where religion is, in general, much less pervasive and influential than it is here.

The headscarves thing in France is very complex but a lot of it has to do with the refusal of the non-French to assimilate and become "French citizens" and French colonialism coming home to roost. Here's a superb thread on the subject from a British board I go to. It's long and wordy, but very thought provoking. And unlike the US, Europeans seem to have few qualms about tightening immigration of certain groups. That's good and bad. That's really a topic for P&R though, as this thread is increasingly becoming.

I'm not one of those dreary Anglophiles who only see the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace and say "Golly, ain't England great!". I've been there 5 times and it has major problems--the class system still pervades everything like smog does here in Los Angeles, for one thing and Everton FC are shite again this year, for another--and I have no illusions about those problems, but, on the whole, I'd live there in a second. It's "home" (I'm of English/Welsh extraction) and it's the only place I've ever been where I feel comfortable with the people and the culture and the surroundings. Mileage varies widely, of course; I have a friend who feels the exact same way about France.

[ February 18, 2004, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

That would depend, obviously, on what is meant by the word "better". Many countries, the U.S. included, have judicial systems that are generally regarded as independent. Many countries, the U.S. included, have a tradition of respect for the rule of law. But NO other country on the planet incarcerates, & only a small handful do executions, with the zeal of the United States of America. As for naming countries, I would have to do some research, but I'm hesitant to consider our judicial system "better" than other countries when hardly a week goes by without a story of some unfortunate soul (most often poor & black) wrongly convicted & languishing in prison or on death row, of fabricated or withheld evidence, of blatant racism & prejudice, of persons convicted amid a witch-hunt atmosphere, & persons sentenced to long prison terms for petty offenses (I read just today of a case in California in which a person was sentenced to 26 years for taking a driver's license exam in somebody else's name).

Thanks for clearing up your position, Jim. I reacted because so many times I see gays and lesbians make blanket attacks on all of Christianity, just as some Christians do on all gays and lesbians.

Also, who are these "liberals" who support fundamentalist Islam or Islamic extremism? In fact in nearly every country where Islamic extremism has taken hold, it's the liberal-thinking and acting and legislating people who are imprisoned or killed first. Perhaps some far left people do support the fundamentalists, but most liberals I know draw the line at the kinds of extremism and church-state fusions that exist in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia, which, by the way, is beloved by the current crop of people in the White House.

Getting back to the topic of the book, does it say where/how he collected his statistics? IMHO, most of the people who take the time to answer such questionnaires are probably not truly representative of the "average american adult." Maybe I just give people too much credit because I work with a lot of intelligent people.

Oh, I thought this was another thread about Rush Limbaugh, never mind.

That's a great question. Any ideas on his statistical methodology?