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twin58
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle...sp?story=410730

QUOTE
WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
By David Usborne
30 May 2003

The Bush administration focused on alleged weapons of mass destruction as the primary justification for toppling Saddam Hussein by force because it was politically convenient, a top-level official at the Pentagon has acknowledged.

The extraordinary admission, which is bound to stir the controversy in Washington and London about the murky motivations for war, comes in an interview with Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Defence Secretary, in the July issue of the magazine Vanity Fair.
Edited to add:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politi...sp?story=410741

QUOTE
Government blames spies over war
By Paul Waugh, Deputy Political Editor
30 May 2003


A senior minister warned yesterday that the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq would constitute \"Britain's biggest ever intelligence failure\" and would trigger an overhaul of the security services.

The minister told The Independent that the security services were responsible for Downing Street's uncompromising stance on Saddam Hussein's weapons. He spoke after a row erupted between politicians and the intelligence community over the Government's justification for going to war.

With the Whitehall blame game gathering pace, a senior intelligence official told the BBC that Downing Street had wanted the Government dossier outlining Saddam's capability \"sexed up\". He also said Downing Street included information against security service advice.

Washington dealt another devastating blow to Tony Blair, who was visiting troops in Iraq yesterday, fuelling anger on Labour's back benches.

Paul Wolfowitz, the US Deputy Defence Secretary, said in an interview that disarming Saddam of illegal weapons was nothing more than a \"bureaucratic reason\" for war.

He told Vanity Fair magazine that members of the divided White House cabinet pushed the issue because it was the only way they could present a united front.
I don't believe Colin Powell will want to stay on the job much longer after this disgrace.

[ May 29, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]
fantomas
So the stupid pResident lied before the entire nation in his State of the Union address, as Powell did before the UN and world, claiming all those WMDs as pretext, though they knew the bill of goods they were selling us was rotten to the core? Well, I never!

First, I've got to give it to Wolfowitz for his brazenness and hubris. He's so feeling his little oats he doesn't give a damn if he brings the entire government down. Now those are some balls for you--either that, or he's totally meshuggeh.

Then, Rummy lied again today on the radio, while Richard Perle lied again on "Newshour with Jim Lehrer," since both of them claimed yet again that the WMD threat WASN'T a lie. So either Wolfie's lying (again), or if Rummy's lying, it's even worse since he's the boss.

Clinton lied about getting his dick sucked and was impeached. The current liar publicly dissembled (on more than one count) to get us into a war in which American servicepeople are STILL dying and thousands of innocent civilians in the defeated country have died. It sounds impeachable to me.

[ May 29, 2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
fantomas
AP: Failed arms hunt stumps top marine

Did he not get the memo or read the newspapers?

Senator Rockefeller rips lack of Iraqi weapons finds

But maybe if he'd spoken out earlier we'd not have gone over there!

Interim Iraqi oil chief seeks investors

Appointed by the US, overseen by a board headed by Shell Oil's prez....

Iraqi Communist party, critics of Saddam, plans comeback

I guess our success is complete now. rolleyes.gif
fantomas
More on Wolfowitz and his comments:

AP: Comments revive doubts on Iraqi weapons
santana57
lies, lies and more lies...

i'm surprised.

NOT.
hockeyTom
Me either. Our Prez has a problem with exagerations, pronounciations, and is far far to secretive. He is a master magician, and alot of his supporters just suck it up.
PhillyFan
Terror training camps, mass graves, 100,000 plus missing kurds, torture chambers, civilians used as shields, starving citizens... yeah, there was no reason to do it.

Even your beloved leader of the previous administration said they thought they had the WMD's.

Maybe you guys need to move on about this, because no one else seems to care. Ask the kids in prison for not being part of the baath party if they are happy or not....
Bill W
The ever-changing story:

WMDs: Who Said What When


QUOTE
PhillyFan:
Terror training camps, mass graves, 100,000 plus missing kurds, torture chambers, civilians used as shields, starving citizens... yeah, there was no reason to do it.  
Like Bush, Rumsfeld etc ever gave a f**k about any of that....
CPT_Doom
QUOTE
Obviously you guys want this to mean a particular thing so you've just decided it is going to mean that no matter what, but any reasonable individual who is not blinded by this absolutely rabid hatred for President Bush could see that what Wolfowitz is saying is not that WMDs were a made up reason but the best reason out of many excellent reasons to invade Iraq.

You people are really sad. I feel bad for you.  
So the best spin we can put on this is that the administration really believed what it was saying - but there are no WMDs in Iraq. Which means we had a MASSIVE intelligence failure and need to find the culprits in the CIA and Defense intelligence who failed in their spying and/or made up the WMD stories, perhaps to force a war the military wanted (there is a theory I learned from military friends that you need a good war every 10 - 20 years to keep the military at its best). In any case, the lack of WMDs is a massive amount of egg on our face (as it was the only palpable threat Iraq posed to the US) and this Administration, and this country, must be held accountable for it.
RazorbackTX
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
Terror training camps, mass graves, 100,000 plus missing kurds, torture chambers, civilians used as shields, starving citizens... yeah, there was no reason to do it.  

Even your beloved leader of the previous administration said they thought they had the WMD's.  

Maybe you guys need to move on about this, because no one else seems to care.  Ask the kids in prison for not being part of the baath party if they are happy or not....
You're missing the point. No one argues that Saddam wasnt a brutal thug but the Bush administrations whole marketing plan was built around WOMD, I for one just thought they should have been honest and said why they really wanted to go to war.
fantomas
QUOTE
PhillyFan
[QB] Terror training camps, mass graves, 100,000 plus missing kurds, torture chambers, civilians used as shields, starving citizens... yeah, there was no reason to do it.  
We knew about all of this as far back as 1991-92, when W.'s daddy encouraged the Kurds and Shi'as to rise up, then watched as they were slaughtered. Or don't you recall this?

BUSH LIED, and the rest of the world knows it, and more and more people in this country know it. Maybe you've moved on and don't give a damn that your pResident is lying to you and the rest of the world on EVERYTHING, but many people do care. Wolfie's so shameless he couldn't keep the lies to himself; he even so much as admitted that the tinpot dictator's defiance was really getting W. mad. He couldn't find Osama, he didn't kill Saddam, and now Afghanistan AND Iraq have descended into chaos. But you know what? In both countries, he's made sure that oil facilities are up and running. Sounds like blood for oil to me.

And as for mass graves and slaughter, are we invading Congo, where hundreds of thousands of people, possibly millions, are believed to have been killed or slaughtered in their civil war? What about Uzbekistan, where dissenters are shot and killed on a daily basis? Or Burma? Or Indonesia, where the military once again is slaughtering people, this time on the island of Aceh? Or the political sinkhole of Colombia...oops, we do have troops there but most Americans don't know it.

As I said, if he's lying about his boozing, which is one of the current Washington rumors, that's one thing (just keep him from behind the wheel of a car cause he's DUI-W!), but lying before Congress AND the American AND the international community is damn serious. I said from the beginning the man was a total liar and farce, and he just proves it more and more each day. "Compassionate conservatism" my ass!
PhillyFan
Dont worry, you only have 5 more years of this to complain....
fantomas
You certainly hope, don't you? I bet you can't wait to greet him with cheers and flowers the next time he brings his shocking-and-aw(e)ful campaign through Arizona. Just don't kiss too much--the Christian Right doesn't want your kind near W!

[ May 30, 2003, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
santana57
QUOTE
Just don't kiss too much--the Christian Right doesn't want your kind near W!
 
ouch!
Bill W
Wonder how those of you STILL supporting Op Iraqi Fiefdom will rationalize this -- in US News & World Report no less...

"Not all the secret intelligence about Saddam Hussein's misdeeds...stood up to close scrutiny. At one point during [his UN speech] rehearsal, [Colin] Powell tossed several pages in the air. 'I'm not reading this,' he declared. 'This is bulls- - -.'"

New questions about US int on Iraq's alleged WMDs (USN&WR)
fantomas
And more:

The spooks have failed to track down Saddam and bin Laden

Plus a rep from Blair's team was almost ambushed yesterday in Iraq by bandits who now control key roads. Is this what we call "liberation"?

"Untidiness"--Donald Lebensraumfeld
GatorJamie
QUOTE
fantomas:
We knew about all of this as far back as 1991-92, when W.'s daddy encouraged the Kurds and Shi'as to rise up, then watched as they were slaughtered.  Or don't you recall this?
From the sound of it, I don't think that he was alive then. Or maybe riding a Big Wheel... wink
fantomas
QUOTE
William1865:
Here's the quote:  

\"For bureaucratic reasons we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree on,\" Mr Wolfowitz tells the magazine.

Obviously you guys want this to mean a particular thing so you've just decided it is going to mean that no matter what, but any reasonable individual who is not blinded by this absolutely rabid hatred for President Bush could see that what Wolfowitz is saying is not that WMDs were a made up reason but the best reason out of many excellent reasons to invade Iraq.  

You people are really sad.  I feel bad for you.
"Absolutely rabid" blah blah blah. Your absolutely rabid adoration of this liar--I mean, W., because there are so many in the administration--is what's sad. Does it not bother you AT ALL that the pResident of the United States got on national TV, before both Houses of Congress, the Supreme Court, and the American people, and proclaimed that the US had all this "evidence"--specific, detailed evidence--of WMDs and Al Qaeda links, almost NONE of which have panned out? That he had our secretary of state, our nation's chief diplomat, make a fool of himself before the representatives of all other nations? That our secretary of defense also proclaimed falsehoods or obvious mistruths before our democratically elected officials?

Because either W. was lying or grossly mistaken, or his intelligence services were lying or grossly mistaken (as before 9/11), or both were lying and grossly mistaken.

And you DON'T CARE? Lord knows, THAT is sad. Of course you haven't lost a loved one or family member over in Iraq, I suppose, and also aren't a resident of that country, which has now descended into utter chaos, so you also haven't lost property or any means of taking care of yourself. Why even participate in a democracy? There are many other forms of government, such as what you can find in Burma or Zimbabwe or Cuba or China, where official lies are the order of the day and the government does whatever it wants.
PhillyFan
If you go on the pentagon website, they show the entire interview that took place... why dont you do that, instead of the 1 quote that was pulled out and you seemed to jump on. Much like the NYT's, they just pull one line from the interview and leave out the rest that doesnt help with their fabrication of what was said.
fantomas
Paul Wolfowitz:

QUOTE
Look, the primarily difference -- to put it a little too simply -- between North Korea and Iraq is that we had virtually no economic options with Iraq because the country floats on a sea of oil. In the case of North Korea, the country is teetering on the edge of economic collapse and that, I believe, is a major point of leverage, whereas the military picture with North Korea is very different from that with Iraq. \"
DoD Transcript

And:

Mark Bowden, author of \"Black Hawk Down\" on Philly.com

US gained little if Bush lied about war


QUOTE
Events have moved so swiftly, and Hussein's toppling has posed so many new pressing problems, that it would be easy to lose sight of this issue, but it is critically important. I can imagine no greater breach of public trust than to mislead a country into war. A strong case might have been made to go after Hussein just because he posed a potential threat to us and the region, because of his support for suicide bombers, and because of his ruthless oppression of his own people. But this is not the case our President chose to make.

Truth in public life has always been a slippery commodity. We expect campaigning politicians or debating journalists to pitch and spin. Facts are marshaled to support arguments and causes; convenient ones are trumpeted and inconvenient ones played down or ignored. This is the political game.

But when the President of the United States addresses the nation and the world, I expect the spinning to stop. He represents not just a party or a cause, but the American people. When President Bush argued that Hussein possessed stockpiles of illicit and deadly poisons, he was presumably doing so on the basis of intelligence briefings and evidence that the public could not see. He was asking us to trust him, to trust his office, to trust that he was acting legitimately in our self-defense. That's something very different from engaging in a bold policy of attempting to remake the Middle East, or undertaking a humanitarian mission to end oppression. Neither of these two justifications would have been likely to garner widespread public support. But national defense? That's an argument the President can always win.

I trusted Bush, and unless something big develops on the weapons front in Iraq soon, it appears as though I was fooled by him. Perhaps he himself was taken in by his intelligence and military advisers. If so, he ought to be angry as hell, because ultimately he bears the responsibility.


[ June 06, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
fantomas
I saw Blair getting grilled in today's rebroadcast of the British Parliament's PM question session. He held up pretty well, but I think it's clear that many in his party, as well as the opposition, believe Britons were duped.

Too bad W. doesn't have to face something similar here. Our Congress is controlled by Stepford members of his party, he gets softballed by the media, and his agents, like Rice, just blatantly lie with impunity, as she did all Sunday morning. Her lies were so transparent I could see the sun shining through them.

I give the GOP credit, though, for always staying on script. The new mantra is, let's not worry about the lies and our outrageous predictions and the fact that we abused the State of the Union address and manipulated the media and public opinion, but gee, who's got the weapons now? Not even where's Saddam or Ossama or those faux biochem trucks (old news), but where are those darned WMDs, geewhillickers? Where'd that old disappeared baddy Saddam stash them--where offshore, in what country, where where where? We were too lazy even to give a damn about guarding all the nuclear facilities in Iraq after the war (cause they no oil was stashed in 'em), so they got looted. Big whoop. But where are all those dastardly weapons?

Because even though they're phantom weapons, we'll repeat Clinton's name ("even Clinton said blah blah blah") to give the lies the tint of credibility as well as sometime taint him too. It's just so f*cking perverse it beggers the mind.

[ June 08, 2003, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
p2insdca
Yea, things were bad in Iraq,, but they are dab in alot of areas, I seem to recall when we went in to stop the killing in Kosvo the Trent Lotts saying we can not police the world. Please Philly fan explain why it was bad then but morally correct now?
PhillyFan
HA, they should have bombed the hell out of them in 1998, more than they did.... however, everyone has said Iraq has these weapons....

Lets go back to 98...

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/199...ts/clinton.html

my favorite quote:

without a strong inspection system, Iraq would be free to retain and begin to rebuild its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs in months, not years

HMMMMMMMMMMMM
RazorbackTX
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
HA, they should have bombed the hell out of them in 1998, more than they did.... however, everyone has said Iraq has these weapons....

Lets go back to 98...

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/199...ts/clinton.html

my favorite quote:

without a strong inspection system, Iraq would be free to retain and begin to rebuild its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs in months, not years

HMMMMMMMMMMMM
PhillyFan - You should go sign up and help them look.
PhillyFan
Looks like there has been failed intel all the way to 1992.....

the is no molson canadian in iraq...yet...

[ June 09, 2003, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]
RazorbackTX
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
the is no molson canadian in iraq...yet...
There is also no running water or electricity or jobs which leaves plenty of time for dancing in the streets - for those that still have their limbs that is.
PhillyFan
There is no time to dance in the streets cause most people are too busy digging up the mass graves to find their long lost relatives....
fantomas
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
Looks like there has been failed intel all the way to 1992.....

the is no molson canadian in iraq...yet...
Didn't I say on another response that the GOP was trying its best to find a way to loop Clinton into all of this? Really pathetic.

W., before launching this war, should have conducted his OWN, NEW intelligence, and in so doing he should have cleaned house ASAP, especially after the spectacular 9/11 failures by the FBI and CIA.

Blaming Clinton at this point is utterly unacceptable. He's been out of office for two and half years.
PhillyFan
HMMMMMMM, Gulf war, "Iraq has weapons"

1993- Iraq has weapons

1998- Iraq has weapons

2003- Iraq has weapons.

See a trend?

The question is... if Iraq had NO weapons, as you claim... why did Sadaam NEVER cooperate at all with inspections? The answer is, he did.
CPT_Doom
posted by Phillyfan:
QUOTE
HMMMMMMM, Gulf war, \"Iraq has weapons\"

1993- Iraq has weapons

1998- Iraq has weapons

2003- Iraq has weapons.

See a trend?

The question is... if Iraq had NO weapons, as you claim... why did Sadaam NEVER cooperate at all with inspections? The answer is, he did.
Clearly Saddam had weapons in 1990 - he used them against the Kurds, Kuwait and the Coalition forces (Scuds, I believe, were banned from the Iraqi arsenal after Gulf War I).

I do not know, and will leave it up to other posters on the site, how effective the UN inspections were until 1998, when the inspectors left. What I seem to remember is ongoing destruction of remaining Iraqi weapons, and then a continuing cat and mouse game as to whether Saddam was trying to restart his programs and hide weapons, and where and when he was doing this.

If our intelligence from 1998 has been telling us he has these weapons, it brings up some questions:

1) Can we really trust our intelligence community, or was there another massive failure, a la 9/11, on the Iraqi issue? As far as I am concerned, we have never taken a good hard look at our intelligence forces following 9/11, and believe we should do that before any more "incursions" into the Middle East.

2) Were the weapons programs as threatening in 1998 - 2000 as they (supposedly) were before Gulf War II? If the answer is yes, then Clinton did fail in the foreign policy angle, because he should have acted then. HOWEVER, not once prior to Gulf War II, and this includes the entire campaign, did the Bush Administration claim that Clinton should have gone after Saddam because of these WMDs, which threatened the United States directly. The Clinton "tie" only came after the fact.

3) Whatever our intelligence before Gulf War II (and if it was so good that we could quote amounts of weapons Saddam had, it should have been good enough to pinpoint their likely locations), is it true that Saddam posed an imminent threat to the US at the time we invaded. Remember, the US violated internal policies and UN practices to launch a unilateral attack against an enemy on the grounds that enemy could hurt us at will, and posed a direct and immediate threat. If that threat was over-stated, then the Administration at least owes the American people an apology, and may have conducted themselves in a way that will lead to indictments.
p2insdca
Phillyfan, I see a trend....it is one of a total liar in the White house. No weapons, no link to Osama. Of course what do you expect from a party that thinks Ollie North is a hero.
I will wait for you to consult with fox for your reply
PhillyFan
Ollie rocked in his war coverage... hell, i thought he was gonna pick up a gun and start shooting.
p2insdca
Ollie is a sham, most of the USMCers I know really loath him
RazorbackTX
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
Ollie rocked in his war coverage... hell, i thought he was gonna pick up a gun and start shooting.
I thought he was going to take his shredder and get a job with Enron, with an office next to "Kenny Boy."
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