[quote]Originally posted by Stephen:
All you Ninth Circuit haters in San Francisco should move to my hometown, Richmond, where you can watch the 9th's ideological opposites in the 4th Circuit in action, marching firmly towards the 18th century (to the applause of Justice Scalia).

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Starting today, the words "one nation, under God" must be posted in every school in Virginia. God - believe, or go to jail.

The article says "every school," not just every public school. That may not be accurate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2002Jun27.html

>>
Va. Schools Forge Ahead With National Motto
'In God We Trust' Must Be Displayed in Buildings

By Rosalind S. Helderman and Christina A. Samuels
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, June 28, 2002; Page B01

Even as a court ruled that it is illegal for schoolchildren to recite a Pledge of Allegiance that mentions God -- and then swiftly put an indefinite hold on that decision -- Virginia schools are preparing to quietly welcome Him into every foyer.

Starting Monday, every Virginia school will be required to hang a poster with the words "In God We Trust, the National Motto, enacted by Congress in 1956," in accordance with a law signed by Gov. Mark R. Warner (D) in May.
....
<<

The kids I saw interviewed on TV tonight know it's all a bunch of politics at work.

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: twin58 ]

On Charlie Rose tonight (Monday): Jeffrey Toobin, Floyd Abrams, Laurance Tribe, Nina Tottenberg, all talking about SCOTUS.

[quote]Originally posted by twin58:
Starting today, the words "one nation, under God" must be posted in every school in Virginia. God - believe, or go to jail.

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What if the law, instead, required the posting of the Declaration of Independence? Wouldn't that be awful? Just look at the words ...

"WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.

"WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

NATURE'S GOD?????
Endowed by THEIR CREATOR????

Good God. Ooops. Scratch that. Wouldn't that be horrible to subject school students to such a text ... such a RELIGIOUS text. Ban the damn thing (using damn in the secular sense of the word, of course).

And GOD FORBID (Ooops! I did it again, as Britney Spears might say) we would make school children recite this text. Thank the Ninth Circuit that no public school kid will ever be forced to recite the Declaration of Independence. All those subversive religious references.

Of course, if you believe that the world was created by a giant tortise (and that the earth is flat and rides on the tortise's back) then it's OK .....

[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:
I have no problem with a kid not wanting to say the Pledge of Allegiance. What if the little guy simply isn't patriotic? Not everyone is. Sure it'd be nice...

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No it wouldn't be. Blind, irrational group thought is what sports fandom is for; it kills fewer people than patriotism!

This "little guy" stopped saying the Pledge at 12. It was the "justice for all" phrase, which I realized was a crock of shit when Ford pardoned Nixon.

Funnily enough, rabidly conservative comedian Red Skelton had a *serious* bit in his late-life stage act in which he analyzed the Pledge with cringe-worthy bathos... which concluded with "Wouldn't it be a shame if the courts ruled 'under God' was a prayer and threw it out of the schools?" (Skelton actually got booed at Carnegie Hall when he performed this!)

This decision's for you, Red!

Ump, you can still be patriotic without saying the pledge. Why is it if you don't have the flag tatooed on your ass or not served 100 years in the military the gung ho's think you're not patriotic?

[quote]Originally posted by Charlie in the Trees:
What if the law, instead, required the posting of the Declaration of Independence? Wouldn't that be awful? Just look at the words ....

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Quoting Jefferson? No sweat. He also said:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

Words to live by, considering that it is currently acceptable for one person to sign a piece of paper declaring another an enemy combatant and have that person whisked away to a military prison, without habeas corpus, without charges, without a trial, and without access to an attorney. *That* is scary. Drop dead, Magna Carta. WWJD - What would Jefferson do? I think he'd be the first to pick up a paving stone and hurl it at Bush's head. Bravo.

Jefferson also said, "Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." Just how is that to be interpreted, now that it is official US policy to have Saddam removed by any means necessary? Assassination is OK, when we do it?

For Jefferson's remarks on the "wall of separation" between church and state, one is invited to visit http://w3.trib.com/FACT/1st.jeffers.2.html to read Jefferson's letter, in which he states:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

The entire exchange is there. Jefferson's comments, like statistics, can be parsed to endorse anybody's opinion.

I'd like nothing more than to see Jefferson's words posted, seeing that they might get schoolkids thinking, a miraculous achievement if ever there were one.

People looking for Jeffersonian quotes in "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations" should note that Jefferson was born in 1743. Authors in Bartlett are arranged by date of birth. Residents of Spokane need only visit their local airport, where important documents are prominently on display.

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: twin58 ]

[quote]Originally posted by budge:
Ump, you can still be patriotic without saying the pledge. Why is it if you don't have the flag tatooed on your ass or not served 100 years in the military the gung ho's think you're not patriotic?

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Hogwash, budge. Everyone must have the flag tatooed on their assess; otherwise, they're godless commies. I'm going to the tatoo parlor this afternoon.

Ten-hut! (sp?)

So what happens when the commonwealth of Puerto Rico and the D of C are granted full statehood - are your "round mounds of renown" big enough for multiple banners ??

P.S. Whatever agency is responsible for flag design has already designated the layout for 51 and 52 star flags - IIRC the 51 star version will alternate 6-9-6-9-6-9-6


Edited for syntax

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: Wurm ]

What'll they do when Cuba becomes the 53rd state?

[quote]Originally posted by twin58:
What'll they do when Cuba becomes the 53rd state?

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Never'll happen. Platt Amendment precludes it. So much for accusations of "Yankee Imperialism."

(But if I were a resort developer in Havana ... )

gmg - I thought that Platt was cancelled in 1934 ??

Also, many American hotel chains are pissed that rights to build at the prime resort locations have been granted to Spanish (Sol Melia) and other non-USA companies. Apparently one or more tried to do a quid pro quo deal through Canadian internmediaries but it fell apart.

Friends who work for a couple of the cruise line companies tell me that they already have sites picked out to use for cruise embarkation piers, and in fact have preliminary architectural and engineering plans already drawn up, in the (IMHO baseless) hope that there will be a sudden opening of business deals once Fee-dell croaks.....

[quote]Originally posted by twin58:
What'll they do when Cuba becomes the 53rd state?

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That nation--la Cuba--will never stand for being incorporated into the U.S., especially not now. Just as Republicans will never stand for Puerto Rico (which should be its own independent nation) being incorporated.

By the way, the Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by a fervently-anti-capitalist socialist, Francis Bellamy--a Christian socialist, that is, who did not as has been frequently noted include the phrase "under God." The pledge was originally used to sell flags. So much for patriotism.

I guess eventually we'll have children reciting the "Coronet" or Ford's "Quality One" jingos, er, jingles and blindly repeating Old Navy campaigns--that is, if Congress incorporates the words "under God" in them.

My first two years I went to public school before transferring to Catholic school. I remember there were about four kids that were jehovah's witness that left the room when the pledge was said. Can somebody tell me what that was all about?

[quote]Originally posted by fantomas:
... if Congress incorporates the words "under God" in them.

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I figure that's the only way Amtrak can be saved: paint the words "under God" on the side of every locomotive, car, and station. How could Congress vote against it?

Why don't they post this in the schools?

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." – Ben Franklin

[quote] My first two years I went to public school before transferring to Catholic school. I remember there were about four kids that were jehovah's witness that left the room when the pledge was said. Can somebody tell me what that was all about?

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Jehovah's Witnesses will not say the Pledge because they cannot pledge themselves to anything or anyone except God. They (at least those whom I have talked to) believe that saying the Pledge places the state of the country over their relationship with God.

And until the Bush administration admits that it has problems with the Pledge (the "liberty and justice for all" part), I shall continue to mouth the words with no feeling whatsoever.

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: AriSea ]

[quote]Originally posted by Wurm:
gmg - I thought that Platt was cancelled in 1934 ??

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Wuerm, Right you are, it was and I stand corrected. But I seriously doubt if Cuba or the US is contemplating statehood upon El Supremo's demise.

Interesting about the Spanish developers. They've done a nice job in Mallorca and it would be nice to see the Pearl of the Antilles given a new shine.

[quote]Originally posted by twin58:
Why don't they post this in the schools?

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." – Ben Franklin

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That's easy, twin--because "God" is in this quote.

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." – Ben Franklin

Now, THAT is what I have tattooed on my ass!

[quote]Originally posted by Aubie in Bham:
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." – Ben Franklin

Now, THAT is what I have tattooed on my ass!

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It's not just a good idea; it's the law.

Has anyone seen any legitimate national polls regarding the "Under God" issue? It seems like I saw one recently where the overwhelming majority of those polled felt like it should remain as is. I could be wrong, but I think the majority of Americans classify themselves as being "Christian", too. I think the Supreme Court will reverse the decision, and "under God" will remain part of the Pledge of Allegience. Whether it does or not...I don't really care. What I hate to see, though, is when you go to a sporting event, the National Anthem is played, and some people remain in their seats. They may take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance, but I hate it when I see people disrespecting our National Anthem.

LOL, love all the humor-ridden graemlin-free comments here. Not much into the endless banter of politics but this looks like fun.

Here in the capital (capitol?) of patriotism on the day of patriotic fervor, its impossible not to get gungho overflow.

Personally I like the idea of freedom of speech and religion but find it difficult to believe either can ever really be legislated. Worth the try though.

Have to admit I got teary-eyed when "The Battle Hymn of The Republic" was sung at an Independence Day celebration in the local 'town square' (Rittenhouse Square.) The music (classical big-corporation supported), atmosphere (hot & humid) and vocalist (a personal acquaintance) all combined to make for a moving if not technically great performance.

But the only thing that made me want to stand up and salute was some of the guys sunbathing on the lawn.

Ump, godless commies huh? Major Frank Burns lives!

[quote]Originally posted by Hogfan:
What I hate to see, though, is when you go to a sporting event, the National Anthem is played, and some people remain in their seats. They may take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance, but I hate it when I see people disrespecting our National Anthem.

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Hear! Hear! I'm with ya, Hogfan!! It's one of the unfortunate fall-outs of the "it's ALL about ME" mentality, where the individual is paramount while everybody and everything else takes a backseat.

About the "under God" phrase of the Pledge, I believe it represents a spiritual unity for all Americans, not an ode to a Christian God, and certainly not the government establishment of one religion over another or no religion. That said, it does kinda bother me that "under God" was included because of the McCarhy Era foaming-at-the-mouth anti-Communist hysteria. If the Pledge were reverted to its original 1892 text, it wouldn't bother me.