http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?ID=75...582&sd=01/27/03

Here's another headline:

George_vikingfan Calls Pope "Inauthentic"

How does it feel, Johnny Boy?

Maybe the gay/lesbian families don't put enough in the collection plate. Or maybe they're smart enough to NOT leave their kids alone with priests. The Pope-ster really needs to just shut up sometimes.

".....Experience has shown that such a 'caricature' has no future and cannot give future to any society."

Not any one this Pope will be a part of, at least.....

George - you are right on the money, but as someone raised Catholic, and not just any Catholic, but Irish-Catholic, I am sick over the latest string of anti-gay teachings coming out of the Vatican. Perhaps I'm just bitter that I agonized for nearly 20 years trying to reconcile what I was taught in CCD and religion classes with my sexuality, and it was a completely wasted effort. As far as I'm concerned the latest teachings completely undermine everything the Catholic Church once stood for, at least in my life.

The Church has been incredibly two-faced about gay people in the past few years, with more strongly worded negative teachings coming out of the Vatican balanced by kinder words from the US Bishops. With the lastest barrage of anti-gay crap, which my cynical side says is only an attempt to deflect the pedophile scandal, the Church as radically altered how it considers gays. Apparently the Catholic Church has now created a sub-class of human beings who aren't quite as human as other people.

Basically, the Church's teachings on gay people now go something like this:

1. Gays do not choose their sexual orientation, but experience it as a given (e.g., the Church doesn't force you to undero conversion therapy, like the Mormons).

2. However, all sex outside marriage is a sin, therefore gays must remain celibate for life.

3. However, because gays have defective souls (are "intrinsicly disordered") they cannot enter into the sacraments of marriage or holy orders (becoming priests, at least). What this means for my baptism, first communion, confirmation, etc. is anyone's guess.

4. Families should love their gay relatives, but not recognize or support any relationships these same relatives choose to make outside the Church's blessing. This means not going to commitment ceremonies, and I guess not even acknowledging the relative's partner, as well as officially opposing all legislation that would make gay families legally stronger.

5. The Church does not interfere with secular governments, but expects Catholic politicians and voters to vote the way the Church wants.

I realize that I should just ignore the Church and go on with my life, but I simply can't. I am angrier about this whole pile of sh*t than I can even express, because being Catholic was always more than a religion. Like being Jewish, being Irish-Catholic is as much a cultural experience, I still bless myself when I pass a Catholic church! To take away my religion in some small way takes part of my identity, and that is just heart-breaking.

There is a real part of my that would love to see formal protests by gays against the Catholic Church - a la ACT UP, but at the same time I am too much a wimp to do it myself.

I don't know if this post makes a lot of sense, but thanks for letting me vent.

Doomster, I agree with you 100%, just as I did when this issue was raised a few months ago. The tone now has become gratuitous, since there isn't any real impetus for these spontaneous outbursts. ("You'd think that with the world on the verge of war ...")

Last week a blurb appeared noting that the Pope expected ALL Catholic politicians and statesmen to adhere to Catholic teachings. Count me out on that one. Whither the Kennedy Doctrine on church-state relations, as espoused during his 1960 campaign?

Like I said before, I'm willing to wait until this Pope is succeeded before I start thinking about becoming an "English Catholic." Most of my Catholic friends already are!

Very good points everyone. I gave up going to church when I came out. My mother, who is hard-core Catholic, doesn't expect me to go to mass when I'm home.

I can't imagine any gay person going to a Catholic church. Why go someplace where we aren't wanted? It's not like each parish makes its own decisions like some Protestant churches do.

My mother's priest was removed from his position by the Redemptorists for soliciting sex from a policeman, a security guard, and two guys who were working with the parish! My mother doesn't even speak of the Church and homosexuality any more.

This Pope has a terrible record on homosexual issues, but I don't think he actually said the most recent statement. I don't even think he knows where he is most of the time. The people surrounding him, like that extremist Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (isn't that his name?) and the creep who took the lead on the priest sex abuse scandals openly loathe gay people, even though the Church would collapse if all the homosexuals in it were forced out. In fact, I just saw a book at the local Borders on the homosexual scandals in the Swiss Guard that protect the Vatican.

At any rate, I take anything supposed declared by this Pope cum grano salis. If he can even finish a Mass these days it's a miracle for him.

If you're at the Outsports convention, ask me about my ex.

This church has NO credibility on any issue regarding sexuality.

Oh, how I love going to a church on a liberal college campus! Our priests have emphatically denounced the Pope's stance on this, and have even held gay/lesbian spiritual groups on church property. I've even heard other priests state specifically that the Pope doesn't know what he's talking about!

As far as I'm concerned, the church can't realistically expect all one billion Catholics worldwide to follow and believe everything the Pope says. He simply gives "advice," and in this sense, I feel he's wrong. Now, to answer theodoresdaddy's question, I go because a)there's nothing in the core beliefs of the Catholic church which are anti-gay and b)the community here accepts me.

Interesting historical note: When the Church forced priests to become celibate in 1250 A.D., many said it was a plot by jealous gay Church leaders.

[ January 27, 2003, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: AriSea ]

I survived the Jesuit environs of my Bachelor's stint at Georgetown University. Not exactly as difficult as BEING Catholic, but I demand my brownie points!! I am happy to have retained my sanity having been schooled around so many cute, educated-to-be guys (and gals) who were forbidden to allow the pleasures of the flesh!!

And, just think, the word "catholic" means "inclusive".

Posted by Fantomas:

Sadly enough Fantomas, assuming the Advocate got it right, he certainly did say it. From the Advocate new item:


"The pontiff, speaking from his studio window above St. Peter's Square, said the meeting reaffirmed that the family, based on a union between a man and a woman, is the authentic signal 'of life and hope for humanity.' In defining what he meant by family, he said, 'It's ertainly not that inauthentic one based on individual egoism. Experience has shown that such a 'caricature' has no future and cannot give future to any society.'"

The Vatican has also decreed that Bishops must fight all gay rights legislation, at all levels of government, and Catholic University is working with the "Traditional Values Coalition" to "protect" marriage from being marred by these inauthentic families. The Vatican (or was it the US Bishops?) has also stated that gay and lesbian people should expect violence if we live openly and honestly.

I hate to beat the dead horse, but the more I think about it, the more enraged I am. The Church is turning into nothing more than an anti-gay hate group. The Bishops said, less than a decade ago, that Catholic families should love their gay relatives - apparently this does not extend to the Church.

So, in the eyes of the Church I am a "child of God" however a child that is so disgusting, so repulsive that I should never know the joy or happiness of a meaningful personal relationship with another human (lifelong celibacy), must expect my fellow humans to do violence to me (encylical mentioned above), can be left homeless, penniless and a social outcast if society so deems it (as evidenced by the Church's stance against gay rights legislation) and will ruin society if allowed to live contrary to the Church's teachings. AND, to top it all off, I did not hoose to be gay, and cannot change what I am.

One question for the Church - My God, my God, why have you foresaken me?

One must wonder if, in the world today, the pope's opinions on homosexuality & family carry any more weight than his opinions on pre-emptive war or capital punishment.

The Catholic Church preaching about sexuality??
You gotta be kidding.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I think that's why the Episcopal Church exists...or as one of my catholic coworkers calls it "Catholic Light".

The horse is not dead, CPT_Doom. Keep a kickin'. :mad: frown

For one, the Catholic Church is not ANYONE'S God/Goddess. Watch how you word your petitions.

Secondly, the Church is the institution that set up so many men and women to be just that (repugnant): men and women who have their life energy (e.g., sexuality, regardless of what manifestation) ripped from them in an arrangement that is false, devoid of sanity, not current with our understanding of human sexuality, homophobic, predatory, and dehumanizing.

And then we wonder why so many people involved the church service prey on our children, the feeble, the physically and mentally challenged, and the otherwise helpless.

Society calls these perpetrators sick and ill, and that they are. But, what about the sick tortures that the perpetrators were forced to endure as a way of life?

And, like any society that struggles with organized crime, no one dares to stand up for what is right - becuase we all know that that the church (especially the Catholic Church, being one of the most wealthy landowners in the world) would see to it that those "dissonant voices" would be immediately AND PERPETUALLY silenced. frown

I think you're being a little dramatic, BB. There are many people who dissent from the Church and do so quite publicly. I haven't heard of any of them being "perpetually silenced" by some sinister Catholic henchmen.

Yes, the Roman Catholic Church hasn't been silencing people regularly for a few centuries now.

Even Opus Dei's reach extends only so far (and I know this personally, having studied at an Opus Dei center in the midwest when I was younger).

I have waited to respond to you Bluebird, mainly because I found myself angry at your depiction of the Catholic Church. I don't think that the concept of celibate religous leaders is necessarily a bad thing, although the Church has not dealt with the question of how to maintain celibacy appropriately during the training for the priesthood or the sisterhood.

I also don't believe that the Church's religious are, in general, pedophiles or abusers of others in any way. My experience with the Church has mainly been positive, at least through my upbringing, with the exception of my sexuality. Nonetheless, I have known many wonderful and giving religious people, who maintained their vows of celibacy and never abused anyone. In fact, my great-aunt was a Sister of St. Joseph, dean of the college my mother went to (and later my older sister also attended, although my great-aunt was retired by then), and the first woman in our family to earn a graduate degree. She was simply one of the most wonderful human beings I have ever known.

The reason I am so disenchanted with the Church is that I don't see it as you do. I know the Church has the capacity to become as spiritual and wonderful as it now simply presumes to be, although it will take an enormous amount of work.

I guess my biggest frustration in this whole debacle is my loss of that hope for the Church. For the longest time I though real reform was possible, but with the leadership the Pope has put into place, I fear instead the Church will disintegrate within a few generations. And that simply is not positive for anyone.

By the way, when I asked my question I should have phrased it as, "Catholic Church, why are you now teaching that God has foresaken me?"

[ January 30, 2003, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: CPT_Doom ]

Here's a peripheral story: "Three Catholic gay activists were convicted of unlawful entry yesterday in D.C. Superior Court by a judge who then declined to sentence them, told them she was sympathetic and went on to apologize on behalf of the Catholic Church."

Read more here

Fallacies of the Catholic Church

#1 - God is God. Jesus ain't God. And neither is Mary. Nor the Holy Ghost.
God isn't three "entities" living inside "God."

There is God, and then there's Jesus. Jesus may be "of" God, and may claim to be the "son" of God, but he ain't God.
If Jesus were alive to hear about the "Trinity", the news would probably kill him.

#2 - You don't need a human to act as your emissary to God. God listens to you. And you don't need a pedophile to listen to your confessions and tell you how you must repent before the three-headed God beastie.

#3 - The hypocrisy of the Pope denouncing gay families while his minions destroy the lives of children (and he sweeps this under the carpet), well, I really don't think I need to say anything more.

[ January 31, 2003, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: AU Tiger in LA ]

i'm not catholic, but i'm impressed that you think you can unequivocally state who or what god is.

[ January 31, 2003, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

DCB, thanks for that interesting story. While I agree with the Judge's sentiments, especially as a RC myself, they should not have been expressed in the public forum of the courtroom. There is also the very real jurisdictional problem inherent in the Judge's apologizing "for" the Church. Who (no pun intended) died and gave her the authority to do so?

To my mind, she should have dispensed with any additional sentence beyond the 30 days served and left it at that. The common law was built up incrementally and can be destroyed so just as well. However well meaning, the Judge overstepped her legal bounds, the opinion of the Chief Judge notwithstanding.

I see no reason for this forum to turn into a denunciation of the Catholic theology, and I really don't think it is necessary to label every priest as a pedophile. As many in the Church have pointed out, the number of priests who have been accused of molesting minors is less than 2% - so 98% of priests risk being labeled as criminals when they have done nothing wrong. This is the same tactic that the "Christian" Right uses on gays and lesbians, and we should not sink to that level.

What Catholics believe about the Holy Trinity (and please understand that God is not three entities, just that God has three different forms - the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost - St. Patrick gave the best explanation of this when he used the 3-leafed shamrock to explain) is completely within their theology, and should not be labeled a "fallacy" just because someone else does not believe the same. In addition, I can't believe there are still people out there who think that Mary is God to Catholics. We just figured out a long time ago that if you want someone to intercede with God for you - His Jewish mother is probably a good choice.

As for confession, there has been a move in the Church to return that sacrament to its earliest roots. When the sacrament began, in the 2nd century, I believe, it was reserved for those who had murdered, committed adultery, or renounced the Church (typically to avoid being thrown to the lions). Many Catholics practice the sacrament of Reconciliation only for "big" issues.

I don't want to turn into a defender of the Catholic faith, but do want to limit our discussion to the Church's treatment of gays and lesbians.

[ January 31, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

I didn't/wouldn't say that they all are. Yes, the wording was a little slack on that sentiment.

Nevertheless:

*There ARE a great many abusers in the Church who are, unfortunately, victims themselves of an "employer", if you will, that denounces the core of their employees' being.

*Persons operating as officials/staff have a great deal of access to children, and in my PROFESSIONAL understanding, have, for some years, been traveling to Latin America and Mexico to get access if they don't feel they have enough. A great number of men and women (not affiliated with any religious organization) have been doing this.

NB: The two statements DO NOT necessarily equal to abuse of children (even in Mexico and Latin America) being the sole responsibility of the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, I WAS DEFINITELY pointing out that the Church staff that DO ABUSE children are life-long devotees to an organization and life that dehumanizes them.

Very sad, and rarely confronted by society. :confused:

[ January 31, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

Very good post, CPT Doom. AU Tiger's post was just condescending and absurd.

BB, I'm pretty sure that no one FORCES people to become priests. They choose that profession, and they know the sacrifices that go along with it.

You're saying priests travel all the way to Latin America just to molest little kids? Um, do you have anything to back this up?

[ January 31, 2003, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: conor500 ]

Right...then how do you explain the invasive behaviors and the regard that the Church's criminal staff has toward youth?

I was once interviewed by a doctoral candidate who was doing her dissertation on the sexual victimization and vulnerability of Mexican youth.

Read it for yourself

Excerpt -

Sex offenders everywhere need to be exposed, regardless of their age or station in life, so that the public can know of their activities and take steps to protect itself against them.20 To report one abuser is perhaps to save scores of future victims.21 The typical child sex offender molests an average of 117 children, most of who do not report the offence [National Institute of Mental Health, 1988].22 Thomas Fox estimates that the “average pedophile priest abuses 285 victims.” 23 The percentage [of] pedophile priests remains controversial; AW Richard Sipe, one of the leading experts, estimates around 6%.24 One in 11 American Catholics say they have “personal knowledge” of child sexual abuse by a priest, according to the first national survey of Roman Catholic opinion since revelations of abuse cases began sweeping the country.25

and...

The multi-billion-dollar worldwide sex trade in children is growing, with more than 1 million youngsters trafficked every year for the purpose of sexual exploitation, the United Nations Children’s Fund said in a [December 2001] report.28, iii Incest, sexual abuse, rape, dowry burnings, infanticideiv or beatings of girls and women by those closest to them are turning into a global epidemic that too few countries are taking steps to curtail, a UN report said.29

Child sex abuse and prostitution are rising in Latin America and children are most threatened in Brazil, Colombia, the Dominican Republic, Venezuela and Cuba, United Nations officials said [19 March 1997].… The reason for this is “a lack of social protection” and growing numbers of tourists from developed countries who come to Latin America on sex tours, according to Agnes Fournier de Saint Maur of Interpol’s general secretariat.30

Child sexual abuse is such an evil, insidious thing that reaches its tentacles into every aspect of the survivor’s life. So often the survivor isn’t even aware of how their actions or inactions are a result of past trauma.31 The exploitation of children and adolescents causes rage and helplessness,v, vi a problem that continues to grow worldwide and has begun to incorporate new technologies such as the Internet.32

:confused:

[ January 31, 2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

Have very much enjoyed reading all of your posts on this topic - survived 12 years of Catholic education (mostly inferior). Wouldn't set foot in or near one of those awful places; btw, I recognize that there are many excellent Catholic colleges and universities). It was a cesspool of predatory priests, brainwashing and mind control and frankly a lot of garbage. Very glad I'm away from the nonsense. Like someone else said, thanks for the vent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/11/nyregion.../11PRIE.html?th

Suffolk County grand jury accused Roman Catholic Church officials on Long Island yesterday of protecting scores of pedophile priests for decades by using sham policies and a bogus "intervention team" to trick and silence victims, cover up crimes, avoid scandals and hold down financial consequences.

and...

As for dangerous priests, it said they were shuffled from parish to parish and often allowed to minister to children, while recommendations for psychiatric treatments were ignored and a "legal affairs" team, ostensibly set up to help sexual abuse victims, worked to suppress legal claims and husband the money.

- - - - -

Priests requiring PSYCHIATRIC treatment were basically BANKROLLED by the Catholic Church?!?

This is worse than I thought - and these are religious officers and spiritual professionals!