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fantomas
On March 9, 2006 at Georgetown University, Sandra Day O'Connor gave a speech that really lit into the current state of GOP attacks on the judiciary, and she singled out both Tom DeLay and John Cornyn for their threatening statements against federal judges. She also warned that the destruction of an independent judiciary could enable a dictatorship. Nina Totenberg of NPR covered it as well.

Just so we recall what our President feels about this topic, here are several quotes:

QUOTE
\"If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier - just so long I'm the dictator.\"
- George W. Bush, December 18th, 2000

\"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it.\"
- George W. Bush, July 30th, 2001
And former Associate Justice O'Connor's take:

QUOTE
\"It takes a lot of degeneration before a country falls into dictatorship, she said, but we should avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings.\"
-Retired Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, March 9th, 2006.
I'm glad that she's decided right after retiring to speak out, but she also only has herself to blame by helping to appoint George W. Bush in 2000. Maybe she thought he would turn out a lot better, maybe she was really angry at Clinton's sexcapades and the right-wing hysteria surrounding them, maybe she was so distracted by caring for her husband she wasn't thinking, who knows? But she helped usher the disaster that plagues our government into office, so she really ought to give more speeches of this sort to atone for the mess she helped to enable.
millerbeach
I have always respected this woman, maybe she feels a bit of guilt over the 2000 presidential appointment by the Supreme Court, since, in effect, it disenfranchised every single voter in America, something never done before in the history of this nation. Maybe she regrets even more that hindsight is 20/20. If she only knew then what she knows now. All the same, kudos to her for speaking the truth. I am begining to think the idea or concept of truth is an endangered species with this administration.

[ March 13, 2006, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: millerbeach ]
sportinlife
I would like to hear her answer the question of why she participated in rendering a decision that put him into office - in defiance of the voters - as well. Until then I will assume she had, and maintains, logical justification for her vote.

What I do not understand is how Republican "moderates" like her and Colin Powell can sit by and watch the institutions they vowed to protect be eroded so cleverly. It's horrible.
MIB
For someone whose opinions and decisions helped to rape the Constitution, she sure is one to talk. Good riddance, Sandy.
CPT_Doom
QUOTE
For someone whose opinions and decisions helped to rape the Constitution, she sure is one to talk. Good riddance, Sandy.
And once again we see the greatest crime in \"conservative\" America today is not being radical enough. Now, I have not conducted a scholarly analysis of Justice O'Connor's rulings vs., say, Warren's or Marshal's, but I am pretty sure there have been others who have \"raped\" the Constitution far worse - after all, in Brown vs. Board of Education the Warren Court actually used results from social scientific analysis (e.g., \"facts\") to rule that blacks and whites were inherently equal, a ruling clearly at odds with our founding fathers' intentions.

On a less sarcastic note:

QUOTE
What I do not understand is how Republican \"moderates\" like her and Colin Powell can sit by and watch the institutions they vowed to protect be eroded so cleverly. It's horrible.
To give credit to Justice O'Connor, she just left the bench and Court ethics prevent sitting justices from making these kinds of comments, so this may just be a start for her. As for other moderates, I'm afraid the gravy train of neo-conservative and "religious" right voters has proven too tempting for them to outright resist the trend. Certainly the leadership of the GOP has tied itself inextricably to these types of voters, so if moderates want the support and $$ provided by the party, they have to shut up, and those voters bring in enormous sums for the GOP. More importantly, much of the local party aparatus in many states is virtually run by the most radically right-wing members of the party, and they wield a heck of a lot of power.

Of course, the GOP dance with the more narrow-minded of our brethren (which really started with Nixon's "Southern Strategy") has always been a tough one - they cannot turn off moderate voters, like they did during the 1992 convention, if they want to maintain political power. The only question is when this delicate balancing act will finally fail, and either the "religious" voters jump ship, or the moderates do.

[ March 14, 2006, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: CPT_Doom ]
RazorbackTX
QUOTE
MIB:
For someone whose opinions and decisions helped to rape the Constitution, she sure is one to talk. Good riddance, Sandy.
Remind me judge, who was it that appointed her to the Supreme Court?
gmginsfo
QUOTE
fantomas:
... I'm glad that she's decided right after retiring to speak out, but she also only has herself to blame by helping to appoint George W. Bush in 2000. Maybe she thought he would turn out a lot better, maybe she was really angry at Clinton's sexcapades and the right-wing hysteria surrounding them, maybe she was so distracted by caring for her husband she wasn't thinking, who knows? But she helped usher the disaster that plagues our government into office, so she really ought to give more speeches of this sort to atone for the mess she helped to enable.
Maybe, just maybe, FT, she was actually following the law.

That said, I agree that GOPers like Cornyn and others are wrong to threaten the judiciary, federal or state. However, speaking as a lawyer who does the majority of his work in federal court and has been for the past 24 years, there are judges, particularly on the federal bench, who DO take themselves too seriously and the constraints of their limited jurisdiction too lightly. THAT is what President Bush was really railing against when he spoke out against judicial activism a few years ago and he should have limited his critique to that issue. Too bad he seized on gay marriage as the vehicle for his attacks though; there are any number of other examples of legislation coming from the bench that would have sufficed to highlight the very real problem of unrestrained judicial activism that plagues some of our courts.
KeyWest Guy
QUOTE
gmginsfo:
. . . there are judges, particularly on the federal bench, who DO take themselves too seriously and the constraints of their limited jurisdiction too lightly. THAT is what President Bush was really railing against when he spoke out against judicial activism a few years ago and he should have limited his critique to that issue. Too bad he seized on gay marriage as the vehicle for his attacks though; there are any number of other examples of legislation coming from the bench that would have sufficed to highlight the very real problem of unrestrained judicial activism that plagues some of our courts.
Come on, GM. Did Bushie tell you what he really meant personally? And it's merely "unfortunate" that he chose gay marriage as the vehicle? What a crock!

Usually, you at least back up your statements with some sort of (twisted) logic, but this is just pure fantasy on your part. He knew exactly what he was doing and had no higher purpose in criticizing the judiciary. What he was really was doing was pandering to the Radical Right.
MIB
Regarding Sandy's ridiculous comments: the conflict of interest is more than usually high when judges speak on the subject of the judicial power in relation to political authority.
Aubie In Bham
I think SDO is closer to being right that MIB is. I have many times thought that the Christian right was trying to take us along the road of the Taliban (or at least Calvinists). They have no desire for "freedom". They have a desire to implement their brand of democracy where they win all of the time. I think that was called communism in the old days.
fantomas
Aubie, you're so right, only they want to substitute their perverted version of Christianity, just as the Communists sought to impose their "religion" upon the masses, or the Taliban, or the Fascists/Phalangists, etc.

Open, liberal, communicative and deliberative representative democracy always ends up suffering in the end, which is what they want.
swiminbuff
I don't think the brand really matters, all forms of fundamentalism essentially believe its their way or the highway to hell. All are perversions of the faith they profess.
Joe in Philly
QUOTE
gmginsfo:
Maybe, just maybe, FT, she was actually following the law.
Except when she was busy raping the Constitution.
rolleyes.gif
MIB
QUOTE
Joe in Philly:
Except when she was busy raping the Constitution.
rolleyes.gif
Exactly!!! smile.gif
RazorbackTX
QUOTE
MIB:
For someone whose opinions and decisions helped to rape the Constitution, she sure is one to talk. Good riddance, Sandy.
Ronald Reagan would role over in his grave if he heard you say that.

You remember Ronnie, right? Remember, you went to his funeral in DC? rolleyes.gif
HotlantaTarheel
So Judgie.....if Sandra D was raping the Constitution and the Constitution became pregnant....well, since you're firmly against abortion, then I guess you'll just have to live with (and support) her legal offspring! tongue.gif
ITJock
QUOTE
fantomas:
On March 9, 2006 at Georgetown University, Sandra Day O'Connor gave a speech that really lit into the current state of GOP attacks on the judiciary, and she singled out both Tom DeLay and John Cornyn for their threatening statements against federal judges. She also warned that the destruction of an independent judiciary could enable a dictatorship. Nina Totenberg of NPR covered it as well.
Like or dislike her, I agree with her; and with Eisenhower before her when he warned us of the MIC in his farewell address.

The current Admin is the perfect example of what happens when the MIC has too much power in the American political system.

R
RazorbackTX
QUOTE
HotlantaTarheel:
So Judgie.....if Sandra D was raping the Constitution and the Constitution became pregnant....well, since you're firmly against abortion, then I guess you'll just have to live with (and support) her legal offspring! tongue.gif
Yes.
"Should'nt we err on the side of life?"
gmginsfo
[quote]KeyWest Guy:
[QUOTE]Come on, GM. Did Bushie tell you what he really meant personally? And it's merely \"unfortunate\" that he chose gay marriage as the vehicle? What a crock! [/quote]Such a happy, rational KWG - nice to hear from you again! But if you're going to play by the rules of evidence in criticizing my speculation a/o lack of personal knowledge in a thread devoted to opinions, then you might at least not misstate my testimony. The word "unfortunate" appears nowhere in my post. And just when did President Bush "personally" tell YOU what he was really up to on this one? You cavil to make your (inane) point and end up impaling yourself on its horn.

Speaking of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but, get a load of this one from a fellow OSer: Link to story.

[ March 15, 2006, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: gmginsfo ]
fantomas
Back to the topic at hand, another member of SCOTUS speaks out.

AOL News: Supreme Court Justice reveals death threats

QUOTE
WASHINGTON (March 15) - Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said she and former Justice Sandra Day O'Connor have been the targets of death threats from the \"irrational fringe\" of society, people apparently spurred by Republican criticism of the high court.

Ginsburg revealed in a speech in South Africa last month that she and O'Connor were threatened a year ago by someone who called on the Internet for the immediate \"patriotic\" killing of the justices.
MIB
To blame the death threats on Republican criticism of judges' decisions is rather disingenuous, but considering it's you posting this, it's not unexpected. Perhaps you should have included the facts behind these threats, those being that the idiots who made these threats claimed it was because of the Justices' "reliance on international law" when reaching their decisions.

Regardless, threats like this are reprehensible. BTW, threats against Justices, the president, and Congress are more common that you think, ft. Most just aren't revealed to the public.
W.
QUOTE
MIB:
Perhaps you should have included the facts behind these threats, those being that the idiots who made these threats claimed it was because of the Justices' \"reliance on international law\" when reaching their decisions.
That info is readily available in the linked article, so it was included.
ITJock
QUOTE
MIB:
To blame the death threats on Republican criticism of judges' decisions is rather disingenuous, but considering it's you posting this, it's not unexpected. Perhaps you should have included the facts behind these threats, those being that the idiots who made these threats claimed it was because of the Justices' \"reliance on international law\" when reaching their decisions.

Regardless, threats like this are reprehensible. BTW, threats against Justices, the president, and Congress are more common that you think, ft. Most just aren't revealed to the public.
I think it's highly disingenuous of you to say that it has nothing to do with the Republicans constant vitrolic crusades against the federal judiciary.

The Republicans were not/ are not happy with many judicial decisions; so they have (over the last several years) upped the timbre of devisive rhetoric and fostered a culture of discontent aimed at anyone they disagree with. They have been masters of divisive politics and have taken many active measures to turn a small majority of the scared middle class against almost every minority that exists. "When in doubt, blame the problem on the most visible minority" seems to have become their mantra. Further they have repeatedly increased the anger quotient in politics at every opportunitty.

They can hardly turn around now and act suprised that threats against officials are up across the board. They are the ones who have encouraged the culture of violence.

You reap what you sow.

Tough cookies.

Rob
MIB
So Republicans should just remain silent about judicial decisions? Hardly. These threats are NOT the fault of Republican criticism, despite how much you and FT foolishly believe they are. You guys are simply trying using the GOP critics as an excuse for the actions of some moronic individuals out there who get their jollies threatening people.
MIB
The background information that fantomas didn't bother to include...

Last month, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg gave a speech in South Africa defending the Supreme Court's (and her) use of foreign law in adjudicating cases under our Constitution. Here are some key excerpts:

An introduction by Justice Ginsburg

... A mid-19th century U.S. Chief Justice expressed opposition to such recourse in an extreme statement. He wrote:

QUOTE

No one, we presume, supposes that any change in public opinion or feeling . . . in the civilized nations of Europe or in this country, should induce the [U.S. Supreme Court] to give to the words of the Constitution a more liberal construction . . . than they were intended to bear when the instrument was framed and adopted.

QUOTE
Justice Ginsburg's comments

Those words were penned in 1857. They appear in Chief Justice Roger Taney's opinion for a divided Court in Dred Scott v. Sandford, an infamous opinion that invoked the majestic Due Process Clause to uphold one human's right to hold another in bondage. The Dred Scott decision declared that no \"descendants of Africans (imported into the United States), and sold as slaves\" could ever become citizens of the United States.

While the Civil War and the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution reversed the Dred Scott judgment, U.S. jurists and political actors today divide sharply on the propriety of looking beyond our nation's borders, particularly on matters touching fundamental human rights. Some have expressed spirited opposition. Justice Scalia counsels: The Court \"should cease putting forth foreigners' views as part of the reasoned basis of its decisions. To invoke alien law when it agrees with one's own thinking, and ignore it otherwise, is not reasoned decisionmaking, but sophistry.\"

... Many current members of the U.S. Congress would terminate all debate over whether federal courts should refer to foreign or international legal materials. For the most part, they would respond to the question with a resounding \"No.\" Two identical Resolutions reintroduced last year, one in the House of Representatives and the other in the Senate, declare that \"judicial interpretations regarding the meaning of the Constitution of the United States should not be based on judgments, laws, or pronouncements of foreign institutions unless such [materials] inform an understanding of the original meaning of the Constitution.\" As of December 2005, the House Resolution had attracted support from 83 cosponsors. Two 2005-proposed Acts would do more than \"resolve.\" They would positively prohibit federal courts, when interpreting the U.S. Constitution, from referring to \"any constitution, law, administrative rule, Executive order, directive, policy, judicial decision, or any other action of any foreign state or international organization or agency, other than English constitutional and common law up to the time of the adoption of the [U.S.] Constitution.\" [Even reference to a Scottish verdict, i.e., a verdict of not proved, it seems, would be out of order.]

These measures recycle similar resolutions and bills proposed before the 2004 elections in the United States, but never put to a vote. Although I doubt the current measures will garner sufficient votes to pass, it is disquieting that they have attracted sizable support. And one not-so-small concern - they fuel the irrational fringe. A personal example. The U.S. Supreme Court's Marshal alerted Justice O'Connor and me to a February 28, 2005, web posting on a \"chat\" site. It opened:

“Okay commandoes, here is your first patriotic assignment . . . an easy one. Supreme Court Justices Ginsburg and O'Connor have publicly stated that they use [foreign] laws and rulings to decide how to rule on American cases.

This is a huge threat to our Republic and Constitutional freedom. . . . If you are what you say you are, and NOT armchair patriots, then those two justices will not live another week.”

Nearly a year has passed since that posting. Justice O'Connor, though to my great sorrow retired just last week from the Court's bench, remains alive and well. As for me, you can judge for yourself.

To a large extent, I believe, the critics in Congress and in the media misperceive how and why U.S. courts refer to foreign and international court decisions. We refer to decisions rendered abroad, it bears repetition, not as controlling authorities, but for their indication, in Judge Wald's words, of \"common denominators of basic fairness governing relationships between the governors and the governed.
Where to begin?

It is unseemly for a Supreme Court justice to smear judicial originalists, including members of Congress, by lumping them with some nutjob who wrote a disgusting post on some website. Ginsburg’s purpose is to paint legitimate critics of her extreme activism and the Court’s excesses as encouraging physical threats against justices. To the best of my knowledge, Ginsburg has never spoken publicly about the attacks on the judiciary or nominees to the bench by leftwing groups, bloggers and members of Congress — whose rhetoric and tactics are typically poisonous. Perhaps the reason is that she’s sympathetic to their goal, which is the perpetuation of judicial supremacy.

Ginsburg’s history lesson on Dred Scott is fiction. Chief Justice Roger Taney, who she tries to paint as an originalist, was actually an activist. She ignored Justice Curtis’s dissent because it would have disproved her argument in support of using foreign law to interpret the Constitution. Curtis wrote, in part:

QUOTE
When a strict interpretation of the Constitution, according to fixed rules which govern the interpretation of laws, is abandoned, and the theoretical opinions of individuals are allowed to control its meaning, we have no longer a Constitution; we are under the government of individual men, who for the time being have power to declare what the Constitution is according to their own views of what it ought to mean.
Nothing in the Constitution supports the holding in Dred Scott that blacks (or slaves) are property. And the most prominent critic of this decision and the Court was Abraham Lincoln. I suppose had Ginsburg been on the Court in 1857, she might have viewed Lincoln as threatening, too.

Moreover, an early and vocal critic of the Supreme Court was Thomas Jefferson, especially after Chief Justice John Marshall’s ruling in Marbury v. Madison, the source of judicial review. For years Jefferson lambasted the Court’s power. In 1825 he wrote, in part:

QUOTE
To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as other men and not more so. They have with others the same passions for party, for power, and the privileged of their corps … and their power the more dangerous as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whether hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It has more wisely made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves.
In 1825 Jefferson wrote, in part:

QUOTE
This member of the Government was at first considered as the most harmless and helpless of all its organs. But it has proved that the power of declaring what the law is … by sapping and mining slyly and without alarm the foundations of the Constitution, can do what open force would not dare to attempt.
I suppose Jefferson was appealing to “the irrational fringe.”

What Ginsburg and other activists don’t appear to realize is that they are undermining the legitimacy of the judiciary by their refusal to accept the limited role of judges in our constitutional system. The Court’s repeated interposition into political and policy areas invites the kind of scrutiny and criticism received by politicians and policymakers. And the public is growing increasingly resentful of justices and judges who use their office to impose their personal preferences on society. And rather than smearing legitimate critics or tuning them out, Ginsburg and her colleagues could learn something from them.

[ March 16, 2006, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: MIB ]
CPT_Doom
QUOTE
What Ginsburg and other activists don’t appear to realize is that they are undermining the legitimacy of the judiciary by their refusal to accept the limited role of judges in our constitutional system.
Which you \"prove\" by using the words only of Jefferson, who was not the final judge of such things, and in fact represented only one viewpoint on the matter. I believe, IIRC, that Hamilton and Madison, when writing the \"Federalist Papers,\" envinsioned the judiciary as exactly the check on Congressional and Executive powers that it has become.

QUOTE
The Court’s repeated interposition into political and policy areas invites the kind of scrutiny and criticism received by politicians and policymakers. And the public is growing increasingly resentful of justices and judges who use their office to impose their personal preferences on society. And rather than smearing legitimate critics or tuning them out, Ginsburg and her colleagues could learn something from them.
What areas are open to the court if "political and policy" areas are inappropriate? And why is it that decisions with which the "conservative" movement in this country disagrees are considered "personal preferences"? Isn't is possible that decisions, like Lawrence v. Texas or the Massachusetts marriage decision, are actually based on a sound legal decision-making theory, albeit one with which some conservatives don't agree?

For example, I am perfectly able to understand the "originalist" theory of Constitutional rulings, although I disagree with it. Someone like Clarence Thomas, who voted to uphold the Texas sodomy law on Constitutional grounds - he did not see it as the Court's place to rule - while simultaneously expressing his own personal distaste for the law, is a great example. I may consider his view on the Court's place to be incorrect, but I cannot fault his use of his legal thinking - it is a valid opinion to hold. On the other hand, Scalia's "fags are icky" explanation for his similar pro-sodomy law vote smacks solely of personal issues that have no place in the law.

More important, it is not the nature of the decision to which Justice Ginsberg was referring, but rather the criticism of the Court for looking to other civilized nations to see how they define certain things. "Leaders" like DeLay have certainly criticized the court for allegedly using foreign law, and not the Constitution, to make decisions (which is hyperbole, at best), and have often decried the alleged "elites" of the judiciary forcing decisions on the land. They may have not called for violence against the Justices (although Robertson has come close), but they certainly have painted the Justices as enemies of the common people.
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