Dean was great on Meet the Press.

Russert was really pressing on some issues in a way that I wish he had done when questioning Powell about the forged documents.

In the subject of Dean's temperment and his (according to Russert) three apologies so far to the other candidates, Dean was very steadfast. "that's wrong. I didn't apologize three times. I did once."
Dean said thinking he maybe shouldn't have said something is not the same thing as saying "I'm sorry. I was wrong."
When Russert disagreed. Dean pushed back and said, "Look. When I'm wrong, I'll admit that I 'm wrong and apologize. What you're alluding to is not that."

Dean then took a swipe at Russer by saying, "I'd rather be doing other things than talking to a Washington insider about what I said about the other candidates."

I loved that. Calling Russert just another Washington insider. Russert had it coming.

As far as what George Will, Mister "I don't play baeball but I wrote two books on it" and his opinions are as relevant to the american public as his books about baseball are to the fans at the ballparks.
He has been ensconced in his cocoon so long, he wouldn't know populism if it bit him on the ass.

lastly, I was at Louisville's gay pride picnic yesterday. I manned the Dean for President booth there and was absolutely amazed at the total lack of knowledge in the gay community.

Most of the people I stopped and/or talked t said they had never heard of Dean. Come on guys. Get the word out!

[ June 22, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: ung ]

I saw Dean too. He came off okay to me. I'm not sure he'll play to the mass of dazed and easily misled American voters, though.

Isn't George Will the same hypocrite who was involved in using purloined (stolen) materials from Carter during his race against Reagan in 1980? This phony was discredited a long time ago; a total, pompous fake who should get far less airtime.

Finally, I'm glad you were out there, ung.

Dean and all the other Demos are going to have a hell of a time challenging the war chest of W, who will be just across the river from me (the Hudson) snarling traffic and raising yet more money tomorrow. He's planning on raising $200 million, and I wouldn't be surprised if as late as the first debates most folks don't know who his opponents are, especially if he keeps wagging the dog and finding other ruses to scare and distract most Americans.

[ June 22, 2003, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

You took the words out of my mouth, or something like that

Doctor Howard Dean Governor and M.D. officially announced his candidacy today.

Yes he did. As far as for people not hearing about Dean, as fantomas posted, it certainly isn't Deans' fault here. Apathy gets plenty of credit I think. This next election coming up next year is so huge its not even funny. Shrub is cranking up the $$$ for his war chest like no tomorrow, and we have to fight fire with fire. Go Dean Go!!!

from Today's New York Times

Go Dean Go!

link to Wash Post article of the same via the AP

[ June 23, 2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: ung ]

I TOLD you that the campaign finance reform would cause problems!

As reported by NBC news last week, the new campaign finance reform law is expected to benefit Bush and the Republicans far more than the Democrats, mainly because Democrats rely more heavily on soft money from interest groups--banned in many respects by this law--whereas Republicans rely more heavily on hard money from individuals; and such limits were increased 100% by this new law.

Even though this law benefits Republicans more now than it does Democrats, I still am opposed to it.

[ June 23, 2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]

It's probably because Dean represents the left-wing of the party, and this does not appeal to most Americans. Another northeast liberal as the Democratic nominee would guarantee a Bush reelection.

I've told many folks that IMHO, Gephardt would be the most formidable opponent to Bush (Gep might still get trounced--who knows?--but he'd be a challenge). You heard it here first.

MIB,

I would ask you to read my excerpt and link to the AP article a couple of posts ago.

It states, plainly that Dean is NOT a Northeast liberal in the sense you mean. and he is not the "left wing of the party" He was a commonsense centrist before Clinton. He is a fiscal conservative. His supporters in Vermont consistently included republican businessmen. he even has received a favourable rating from the NRA.

Don't listen to the uninformed cliche that since he's from Vermont he must be another "Ben and Jerry" granola pol. He's actually from the upper eastside of Manhattan.

[ June 23, 2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: ung ]

Actually, Ben of Ben and Jerry ice cream fame endorsed Dean recently

I may be wrong. But I could swear that i read recently the ripples caused because Dean was NOT endorsed by the founders of Ben and Jerry's. I think they endorsed Kerry.

Anyone know about this?

Actually, B&J endorsed Dennis Kucinich

*rolls eyes, shakes head* To each his own...

(though they did honor Dean with a sundae -- Maple Powered Howard)

Don't buy into the "too liberal to win" meme about Dean without checking him out first. You'll probably be surprised.

Dean stands for something. He's a real centrist (as opposed to the center of the right -- which is how most pundits describe centrists these days), and he's a pragmatist.

I can't believe it's now a liberal view to want a balanced budget.

[ June 23, 2003, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: MCMikeNamara ]

All of which are reasons why bostongirl and I will be at a fundraiser for him tonite in DC. I've never given a political candidate money before - would rather spend it on all things orange and blue - but this guy is growing on me...

Good for you gatorjamie!! Thats fantastic. I find Howard to be extremely passionate about his beliefs and where we need and should be going as a country. I don't think there is any other Dem at the moment that is as articulate as Dean.

Obviously if one takes a serious look at his record, it would be impossible to label Howard Dean as a "tax & spend liberal". I too have taken a liking to him personally & his theme of social justice on a foundation of fiscal discipline. He's not afraid to criticise W. on the many issues where he's vulnerable. Perhaps some of the other candidates, in so labeling him, are talking in code to imply that he is unelectable. After all, if he is the Democratic nominee, the Bushies will hang the civil unions law & his opposition to Operation Iraqi Plunder & Evangelism like an albatross around his neck.

The Howard Dean story on this morning's AP wire defined him as "a favorite of anti-war liberals." Umm, ok, whatever... :confused:

Today and tomorrow, that bastion of online liberal activism, moveon.org, gives you the opportunity to vote in their virtual presidential primary. If you're not already a MoveOn member, you will need to register with an email address and phone number for ballot verification purposes. (Also see Salon.com commentary about the exercise)

You know my motto - LICK BUSH in 2004!

(although there's no time like the present )

eeeeeeewwwwwwwwww. NOT!!!! Afraid of what I might catch! eek! eek!

[ June 24, 2003, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: puckman1 ]

GatorJamie, can you have some bumper stickers made?

Unfortunately the window to sign up and vote on moveon is now closed, but you can still send a petition to your elected officals calling for an independant investigation re: Shrubs justifications for us going to war in Iraq. I urge everybody to check this out.

I too would love a Dean for Pres. bumper sticker. wink

I would also urge anyone interested to go to Mr. Deans' website:www.deanforamerica.com and sign up for what are called "meetups", where you can get togther and shoot the breeze with other people in your town or city. Go Howard Go!

did anyone hear this... when dean gets the nomination, the new spelling of his name will be Dukakis. Did i spell the right?

Nope. Dukakis is spelled with "t-a-x-e-s," while Dean is spelled with "c-o-j-o-n-e-s."

Dean is actually a Rockefeller Republican, if you compare the two.

(thanks ung!)

[ June 24, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: GatorJamie ]

Gator Jamie is right.

Dean's family is from the uppereast side of Manhattan and his father was a Rockefeller republican (I think that's what she meant to say instead of FDR) and delegate to the GOP Nominating Convention.

at Dean's website, You can download banners etc.

The campaign only formally launched yesterday as you know. There will be more emphasis on getting out bumper stickers and the like.

also Dukakis is spelled W-I-M-P. Dean is anything but.

[ June 24, 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: ung ]

ung: you are so right!!

From the Burlington, Vt. Free Press:

How will he win support of Democratic Party leaders, given his frequent criticism of them, a reporter asked Dean at a small morning news conference.

Not a problem, Dean responded. They'll come around once they get to know me.

"It is a bit of a club down there," he continued. "The Democratic Party, all the candidates from Washington, they all know each other, they all move in the same circles, and what I'm doing is breaking into the country club."

Jaws dropped.

Dean's 17-year-old son, Paul, was cited last week for aiding a break-in at the Burlington Country Club. Paul Dean allegedly drove the car while three friends broke into an outbuilding to steal beer.

Dean then asked a press aide: "Why do I say these things?"

PhillyFan - I know you'll be supporting Dean. You were/are so upset about DOMA that it only makes sense for you to back him. Also, he's pro choice like you. You two liberals were made for each other!

Dukakis has ZERO chance of getting the nomination... zero... zip. It wont be allowed.

whatever.

Excerpt from the Washington Post. Still think he has Zero chance for the nomination?

Here's the article link

Sorry guys.. much like mccain, the guy has NO CHANCE OF GETTING THE BID. It wont be allowed by the establishment. You heard it here first.

And like you told me, opinion polls dont mean shit.

Dean has no chance on getting the nomination -- need to totally discount that straw poll in Wisconsin -- that took place at the recent state Democratic convention, attended by mainly very liberal party activists. They don't reflect the mainsteam who will actually vote in the primary.

And he just won't get the big $$$ needed.

[ June 24, 2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: DCBucky ]

Time will tell. Mark my words.

Uh huh. Yeah right. And it's going to snow next week in Phoenix. You just keep believing he's no liberal and the Republicans will walk all over him if he's the Democratic nominee.

Dean is a northeastern liberal, period. It doesn't matter if he's as "centrist" as Clinton. There was one major difference: Clinton was from Arkansas; he was from the south. Had Clinton been from the northeast, he probably would not have been successful. The perception of one from the northeast is quite different from one from the south, even if the two hold the same ideological positions.

The Democrats have a serious problem on their hands. They don't want to lose grip of their liberal ideals, yet the country has moved to the right of center. If the Democrats move with this, they risk looking too Republican. If the Democrats don't do this, they risk losing because they're too liberal.

This country isn't exactly right-wing; however, it certainly isn't liberal, nor will it cling to liberal candidates.

It's an interesting conundrum.

Painting Dean-kakis as an extreme liberal is like shooting fish in a barrel. True or not, it would be easily accomplished.

The perception is already out there that he is.

Does it really matter tho... All you hear these guys do is Bush bash, and america is sick of hearing that... do any of them have fresh new ideas? and that 7 trillion health care package is not fresh and new.

I was channel surfing awhile back and saw Dean speak at a Iowa meeting on C-Span. And normally I don't stop on C-span but was intrigued by his delivery of speech and his passion, which really comes through. I've been intrigued with him since.

Dean reminds me of a young Jimmy Carter, very passionate and reliant on grass-roots to build momentum. And like Carter, Dean is very intelligent and speaks his mind.

I thought he did well on Meet the Press (can someone give Tim Russert a dictionary? He doesn't seem to understand the definition of words like "apology" or "tax increase.") Unfortunately, Dean may be TOO intelligent for the American public, who may be intimidated by his smarts. I hope and pray that I'm wrong, because I'm tired of living in a country where you can't speak your mind against the government without being labeled unpatriotic. (And PhillyFan, Bush bashing might be tiresome to you, but if he keeps giving us things to bash about, I say, LET THE DRUMS ROLL!)

I think this is great how everyone's getting into discussing the presidency and not automatically voting by party lines. Just exactly the type of healthy debate Dean is pushing for!

That will get him elected.

What liberal messiah? Howard Dean, left-wing impostor (Saletan, Slate)

I just voted for Kucinich in the MoveOn primary, someone with actual liberal credentials... (Yes, I know he "can't win." I don't give a shit.)

Good article Bill W. Though it doesn't change what I think of Dean, it puts his views into perspective. He has also publicly stated that his views on some things are flexible. I think that is a good thing.

I have problems with the firmness of his support for universal health care. He seems to waffle about whether his plan allows for care for "everybody" or "almost everybody" as he claims is the case in his homestate where he was governor. A healthcare system is not triage. It should be built to include everyone even if some may inevitably get less out of it than others. It shouldn't be purposely built to leave some out. Who is he intending to leave out?

I think Dick Gephardt has the clearest plan for healthcare and the will and political savvy to pull it off. Again it's hard to know how much he will compromise.

I think Dennis Kucinich is certainly the most ideologically consistent and the deepest thinker whether or not you agree with him. I've heard him speak and he sounds younger than he looks yet seems wise beyond his years. For folks in the US to listen to him long enough to appreciate that is asking a lot. But I'd certainly like to hear more from him.

Kerry seems to be the "silver spoon" candidate: the one who has the resume so perfect that his candidacy is destined. I guess that's why he doesn't seem to have much of interest to say concerning policy.

I think this is a good bunch and hope to hear more from all of them, including the ones I haven't mentioned.

Dont give up so easy PhillyFan. When you find a candidate that you agree with as much as you do with Dean you gotta stick with 'em. Keep hope alive PhillyFan!

Actually, as several people have said repeatedly, Dean is not--NOT--a "northeastern liberal." The media's perceptions of him may be, but that does not make it any truer than the media's claims about weapons of mass destruction findings, NONE of which have subsequently panned out. John Kerry is a "northeastern liberal"--so is Teddy Kennedy, so is Charles Schumer, so are ALL the Congressional delegates from Rhode Island. Dean is politically to the right of a number of these folks, though he is obviously far from the right as well.

Second, in several different polls, when Americans are asked what they want from government and how they view the country, their answers consistently poll to the LEFT of the Democratic Party's platform. That's right--to the left. The country is far more centrist-liberal than centrist-right. We'd never know this from our right-skewing media, especially the televisual media, which still likes to portray the New York Times as on the far Left, when that newspaper relentlessly stirred up the Whitewater mess (the current "acting" editor played a chief role in this), and gunned for Al Gore from the beginning of his campaign till the Florida debacle, while giving Bush free pass after free pass.

I ask you, if a Democratic candidate had a record of being AWOL DURING A WAR; a DUI in one state and possibly another in another state; consistent business failures (that make Carol Moseley-Braun's problems with her finances look like a high school kid with a new bank account); AND a history of drugs AND alcoholism, do you NOT think the press would nail her or him to the wall? Where was the liberal media in investigating all of this? They're already painting Dean as being from the far left, in no small part, I think, because they realize how smart he is and how his programs and policies would throw a monkey-wrench into the fascistic zealotry and partisanship that now controls Washington (and by extension the world).

OK, whatever you say; but neither was Dukakis a northeast liberal.
In poll after poll, Americans describe themselves as more right than left, yet they paradoxically ask for more things from their government. Then they protest when they find out their taxes will go up to pay for this all.

America has increasingly tilted more to the right over the last 10 years alone, your misinterpretation above notwithstanding. This does not mean Americans are a bunch of right-wingers. Hardly.

As a nation, we lean to the right of center, as opposed to someone like Dean, who's squarely in the liberal camp, even if his supporters want to hide him in some \"centrist\" disguise.

I don't know what's funnier: This load of BS or the fact that you actually believe it. For your own sake, lay off the sauce before you post next time. wink

[ June 24, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]

bostongirl and I actually MET Dean last night. This guy is the real deal...

Thats very cool, congrats. Did you tell him how MIB had been calling him a "liberal?"

batboy said he may be too intelligent for the average American .
Wow, what an interesting thought provoking statement to make. If, and its a big if to me, Dean doesn't make it all the way to nomination, I would say that that will be the real reason. I tend to agree with you. It's really clear how whip smart this man is, and it took me no time at all to figure this out. He is a reality check in the political world, and boy after 4 years of Shrub, do we need a reality check. Go Howard Go!

Well -- Dean must be a credible candidate if the right wingers and fundies are trying to paint him as a Northeast liberal by calling him names and trying to "pigeon hole" him. The reality is that his views are more in line with the majority of Americans and the independents who decide most elections.

Speaking of Michael Dukakis -- he wasn't the most exciting candidate (understatement) but he still captured 41.8 Million votes in 1988 (compared to the 39.1 Million votes which Bushnix I received in his pathetic relection bid 4 years later when a small state unknown governor beat him).

But now is the time to look at Bushnix II's record -- what has the guy accomplished thus far in his Presidency? Well, he lies as much as Nixon (hence, Bushnix). Squandered the deficit, isolated us from the international community, lead us into a war without much support and under false pretenses.

Lie -- "we need to go in there and get the WOMD" -- none existed. Lie -- 'the people of Iraq want us to liberate them" -- a few crackpots showed up in the public square and hit the statue of Saddam before American troops pulled it down to the cheers of a very few Iraqis. On only one occasion were our troops mobbed as they invaded (sorry, "entered triumphantly") an Iraqi city and that was when they were throwing candy to the kids.

Bushnix II flat out lied about his committment to the environment by doing an about face on Kyoto.

And on it goes...

I'd rather have a Dean (or a Dukakis, for that matter) than a Bushnix.

Not a problem for Bush.

"Wait for us to succeed peace. Wait for us to have two states, side by side -- is for everybody coming together to deny the killers the opportunity to destroy." Kennebunkport, Maine, Jun. 15, 2003

Reminds me of a great anecdote from the 1950s:

Woman in audience: "Sir, I'm sure you'll get the vote of every thinking man and woman in America."

Adlai Stevenson II: "Thank you madame. But that won't be enough. You see, I need a majority."

[true even today -- except W showed once again ya don't need a majority!]

Top Ten Signs You're In Love With Democratic Presidential Candidate Howard Dean

10. You've actually heard of him

9. Whenever he discusses plans to revitalize economy, you get goosebumps

8. Named your cats "Howard," "Dean" and "Six-Term Governor Howard Dean"

7. You'll only watch movies featuring Ron Howard or Harry Dean Stanton

6. When you hear a report on the radio about a highway accident, you murmur, "Please, god, don't let Howard Dean be involved"

5. Constantly complain rival candidate Dennis Kucinich isn't "Howardly" enough

4. Changed outfit four times before watching his appearance on "Meet the Press"

3. You stand by him despite the fact his infidelities embarrassed you in front of the entire...oh wait, wrong Democrat

2. When he announced his candidacy, you didn't laugh your ass off

1. You're actually considering wasting a vote on him