Well said!!! The thing that I like alot about Dean and admire very much is that this gay marriage/civil union thing isn't put in your face by him, its being put in his face though big time, by the media and interviewers trying to peg him down. I agree with his standing on civil unions 100%. This gay marriage thing has got America salivating at the moment. Its on everyones' minds and causing alot of anxiety.How will it play. Time will tell. I keep reading polls though which are encouranging about Americans saying in increasing numbers that gays deserve more rights, and should have certain rights, and shouldn't be discriminated against and so on and so forth.

I wont say Im Dean's biggest fan yet, but its going to take a liberal to beat George Bush. We dont need another conservative clone to try and take him down. Who would vote for someone new if theyre the same as the current president? That was the problem with Gore and Bush the first go around. Nobody knew which was better since they agreed on anything. So they chose the lesser of the two morons, er I mean evils.

So far Dean is the new golden boy for this campaign. He can only get stronger or allow the other moronic Democrats to take him down. And if it comes to it, I know he'll have the support of the other liberals in the race if they think they dont stand a chance. Kerry and Liberman need to get out now.

That was a good answer, p2insdca. I think the worker in the Jeep plant in Toledo COULD relate to Dean's take on civil unions. And yes, the Jeep plant is still open in Toledo, as far as I know, right off of I-75. It's not a pretty sight, though.

DC-Buckeye... OMG I forgot about the drive on I75
I used to live in Atlanta, and would drive the I75 to my folks home outside Detroit...No not a pretty sight, neither was Zug island!
Anyway sorry about all the typos on my post,,, my partner put a microsoft keyboard on the pc...trying to get used to it!

BTW, there's an interesting article about Howard Dean on the front page of Salon.com today. It's a subscription website, but you can get a free day's pass if you agree to look at a couple of advertisements you can click your way through in about 5 seconds.

an indicator of whether Dean can win over the blue collar vote or not was seen today.

I'm in Philly and went to the Dean Rally with 4,000 people showing up....followed by a presidential forum organized by the national electrical workers Union, a blue collar group. By far, Dean had the most enthusiastic support of the union members.

[ August 11, 2003, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: ung ]

I saw a neat comment on the union issue..one of the other guys ( sorry don't know which) said
I want to remind those who are anti-union that the firemen and policemen who died sept 11th were union members...

Need I remind you, a California dock worker (union employee) makes 6 figures to sit in a crane half asleep all day. The cops and firemen were lucky to make 50 grand and died in a gigantic building imploding around them. Now, do you wish to defend all unions?

And by the way the electrical workers union kept my grandfather on the unemployment line for most of the 80s.

[ August 11, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: DallasUNC ]

No I do not...BTW I do not think a dock worker is half asleep either, it is not an easy job from what I have seen.
At the same time do you think 40 hour work weeks paid time off, overtime etc would be around if not for the union movement?

Oh yeah, we'd be living in slave mines in 2003 right, if not for the glorious unions.

QUOTE]Oh yeah, we'd be living in slave mines in 2003 right, if not for the glorious unions. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Your being silly, I did not imply that at all. Even if your anti-union for what ever reason, you need to look back at what gave rise to the union movement. IF you do this with an open mind you just may see that the rise of unions was followed by the if not creation then the growth of the middle class. If you want to argue they ( the unions) have out lived thier purpose fine. BTW have you ever had a blue collar job?

Saw and listened to Gov. Ann Richards former Gov. of Texas on Larry King last night. God I love this woman. She is so finely tuned into whats happening right now. She once again praised Dean. In fact the last time she was on Larry, she said that Dean was the only Demo speaking out and up on the issues.I credit her for turning me onto Howard. Last night she said what is going on with him is a phenomenon, with all the sign up meetings, and how he has been able to raise so much money through small contributions from all over the country. She didn't mince any words stating what Bush must be defeated next year either. Way to go Ann.

Saw parts of the same program -- Howard Dean is the real thing when authentic democrats like Richards are taking note of his rise. I also watched a bit of the debate on CSPAN -- Leiberman ought to just admit that he is a republican in disguise -- and also that his lackluster (to say the least) performance in the last campaign probably cost Gore the election.

Did you hear Richards say his campaign is the one thats not going anywhere!!!
I understand Dean is going on a "Sleepless Summer Tour" beginning very shortly to a number of cities. He will be in Seattle and Portland, Or. on Aug. 24th. I am thinking seriously about going to the Seattle rally.

Leiberman lost my vote when I found out he voted against beefing up the SCE in the pre enron days...seems he sold out on that one

Question asked above was how do you sell the blue collar workers in the Midwest on civil unions? Doesn't matter. It's the economy, stupid. (to no specific person). I believe people are hurting and the economy is not rebounding. And what little recovery is happening is not including jobs. People will vote their pocketbooks, following a Maslow-type need analysis. They cannot concern themselves with "issues" until they know they can take care of their families. Dean can sell this, that W took a good economy and let it fail.

SO, There is a Dean rally being held across the street from where Mr Bush is holding a fund raising event here in San Diego. As this will also be an anti Bush rally, and I am in the ranks of the unemployed I am going.....maybe I will post some pictures!

I hope you're right about that, dinger, I sure hope you're right.

Should be a huge crowd!

[ August 12, 2003, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: RazorbackTX ]

Read this morning that Leiberman was loudly booed at some event in Oklahoma last night. His campaign is unraveling fast.

I find the man extremely boring, and someone with the ability to put a crowd to sleep fast. He is not a good orator.

Puckman -- he ain't no "Give 'em hell Howard" is he?

Howard Dean IS the right man for the job. Joe Liberman, Kerry and the other pretenders should bow out NOW!

Dean is smart, good looking, eloguent, smooth and knows his stuff. He can articulate more in 5 minutes than the others can in 15 minutes.

With respect to the pro-union v non-union stance that some have taken. There are pros and cons both ways, but I can sincerely state that I personally thank past union members for health care options, minimum wages, overtime pay, vacations and severence packages, and unemployment compensations. Not all things are pretty, but I feel fortunate to at least have options that otherwise would not be offered or even considered had unions not been in place over the years. Non-union backers should not so quickly be inclined to dismiss the hard work others have done over the past decades. A lot of noggins were busted so others can sit on their asses and bitch. :cool:

Just for the record, when I replied earlier, I was speaking of Lieberman, definitely not Dean, who is a give em hell Harry type of guy. Go Dean!

I am very pleased to report that Howard Dean is coming to my town too!! I just read in my paper this morning that he will be in Spokane on Aug. 25th, in a question and answer rally at the West Central Community Center. Now I don't have to drive to Seattle or Portland. I can't wait to see/hear him!

puckman -- we expect a full report and maybe some pictures. wink

Puckman said: And now, this just in:

Don't worry, puckman. Your secret is safe with us. wink

Thanks for the Friday morning laugh Seph. You have a very active imagination my friend.

Puckman -- what kind of trouble are you getting into or is Seph brewing for you? and...Hunky???

None yet, but my options are open.

By the way Dean supporters, go to this website to sign up for the petition to stop Ashcroft from taking any more rights away from us Americans. Thank you.
Howard!

I am pleased to report that as of now, there are 159 people registered to attend the Howard Dean rally in Spokane next Monday, this is up from 50 just 5 days ago. The momentum keeps growing. Can't wait to hear what my partners Dad has to say, if anything about my Dean bumpersticker by the way. He is a hard core Republican.

Welcome to my world ... MY Dad, AND Mom, are both hard-core Republicans. I'm, well ... NOT a hard-core Republican. It makes for some tense moments, for everyone concerned.

I mean, I'm sure my parents go home after visiting me and wonder how they ended up with such a liberal, pinko, tree-hugging, un-American, ungrateful, uber-gay hippie of a son.

Sonix he is coming to Seattle, and also Portland as well as Spokane. In Seattle on Aug. 24th, Sunday I believe at 4th and Westlake downtown about 4:30pm I believe. Should be a huge crowd for him.

I'm planning on going to see Dean in Falls Church VA this Saturday. I'm pretty psyched about it. Anyone in the DC area who can, come join us.

Me too dinger. I have never felt this compelled to be so involved so early, but Dean has struck a nerve, and truly has balls, unlike some of the other Dems.

It's kind of wild, Puck. I get the same feeling with Dean as I did with Clinton - this guy is not so far left that he's unelectable, he comes from a smallish, not-so-liberal state, etc. He can get rid of Bush II just as Clinton did with Bush I. I really think he can do it and I think that that would be a big step for the country overall and gays and lesbians particularly.

Dinger, I do too, thats why I have got behind him and involved. Like Ann Richards said, "if the Democrats get out the vote next year, we will win the election. There isn't a doubt in my mind". Mine either.

Just to be clear: I'm a BIG fan of Howard Dean ...

But where did we get the idea that Vermont is a not-so-liberal state? :confused: Vermont is a lot more liberal than Howard Dean is!

Unless the Repugnicans steal it again. J/K

Excuse my ignorance, Red7. I guess when I think of VT I think mostly rural, mostly small towns, mostly white, etc. - and then I have a hard time equating that with liberalism. Libertarianism maybe. My bad.

My favorite Deanism so far is when Larry King was talking to him about how the right is trying desperately to paint him as a liberal, and he replied, "well if wanting a balanced budget is liberal, thats fine with me"!

Puckman -- that is an excellent line. You geting psyched for the rally next week? Have your camera ready? We expect pictures wink

In 3 words, yes Yes, yes!!!! The number of people now signed up is over 300 in Spokane, and just keeps growing!!! Of course I am taking my digi-cam. wink I also understand that 30 members of the national media will be with Dean. With luck you all may be seeing me soon. Look for the guy with the Ducks-cap, which I may be wearing, that will be the puckman. Can't wait for Dean!!!

Just read this about Mr Deans latest stop..
"Live from Seattle...
Never before in the six years I've been involved in politics have I ever seen anything like this. Everywhere I look were more people waving Dean signs and wearing Dean shirts. From the main stage to press riser was a shoulder-to-shoulder sea of Dean signs as far as the eye could see. At least 4,000 people just in that front area! Moving to the press riser, I found an even larger sea of Dean signs behind the press risers, flowing all the way down the street for nearly a block. At least twice as many people as the group in front of the press risers! Media reports and police official estimates put the crowd between 12,000 to 15,000 people. All I can say is that Washington is certainly Dean Country. Photos are coming -- stay tuned."

He did draw an incredible 15,000 people to Seattle!! This morning, its Spokanes' turn!!! wink

I just got back from the town hall meeting in Spokane with Dean. They expected 500, and just over 1,000 attended!!! The place was jammed with people. Overflow crowd! Dean said he was deeply touch and moved by the turnout and enthusiasm shown in Spokane. He looked fantastic, and sounded even better. Spokane and Washington State is DEAN COUNTRY!!!! I was very impressed with the depth of his answers. This wasn't so much a rally, as a question and answer forum, but he got dozens of rounds of applause and many standing ovations. Go Dean GO!

Great!
I watched on Cspan, and was blown away at his answers. More so as I did not see a telprompter...
did you take any photos?

yes I did, but know not, on how to post them here. Anyone????? There is also more info and picks on his website about the Spokane event. Go Howard.

Dean rocked in Falls Church on Saturday! There were way many more people than anyone expected - I heard around 4500. We got all the signs and bumper stickers - this is exciting. Get involved, folks - no one is going to lead you better.