BTW, did anyone else read David Brooks' strange Brookhiserian piece in the NY TIMES a few days ago about the end of the protestant establishment and how Dean and Bush II represent opposite poles?

According to Brooks, Dean's full name is Howard Brush Dean III, he comes from a very socially prominent and old New York family, more tony that W's, in fact (the fact of W's social prominence and elite background has all but been buried, mainly I think because journalists readily buy into his Texas rancher shtick.) Instead of going the route of old-line blue bloods and trading in on his connections, after Yale College Dean became a doctor, worked in the south Bronx, married a Jewish woman, raised his children as observant Jews, and entered politics.

Brooks then makes the point that the prep schools that educated the likes of Dean (St. George's in Rhode Island) and Bush (Andover), like those that produced Kerry (St. Paul's, the most exclusive in the bunch, which Brooks gets wrong, as well as claiming that Kerry went to Harvard, when he attended Yale and Boston College Law School) and Gore (St. Alban's in DC), now no longer produce these kinds of leaders, because they're more open, free-wheeling, blah blah blah.

Whatever. I think Dean's background is very interesting and matches well with Clark's. Two very smart men with real-life experiences and successes who didn't get ahead just based on their names, but on their own merits. So far, Dean's got my vote, though if the nominee were Clark, Kerry or Edwards, or less likely Gephardt, Graham, Kucinich, or Moseley Braun, I'd still vote for the Dem. If it were Lieberman, I'm not so sure. I mean, why not just vote for W rather than the ersatz version of him?

[ September 16, 2003, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Going to be a mini-rally in the heart of downtown Spokane tomorrow for Howard, and to declare Spokane as a "Bush Free Zone", and also to declare that Spokane is Dean country!!

Puckman - are you going? Sounds like fun.

yesir!!!

I understand in a New York fundraiser for Howard Dean the other night. Gloria Gaynor was there, yes she sang "I Will Survive" , and so was Whoopi Goldberg!! Right on Whoopi. wink

I understand that Al Frankton ( spelling?) was there....From what I saw, he used the F word several times while on stage...I was very disappointed and think Dr Deans needs to go on record and say what Al said was over the top...just my opinion

I agree - Al Frankenstein (I think that is the correct spelling) is like a little kid doing "naughty" things to draw attention to himself -- what a bore.

Sorry for the back to back posts but I just read an account of Dean's speech in Boston today. Not very good at linking but it is well worth a look on line to read what he had to say.

The message is strong and compelling and on the heels of W's "tail between his leg" begathon at the UN today puts the entire situation in perspective. Bush and the conservatives have been reckless with our rights, our freedom, our future and our stature in the world.

Right on Howard!

Yeah,, I like Dean so much I parted with $25 today- hey being unemployed that is alot of money to me....anyone else going to put some money into his camp?

I am next month. Like you p2, $ is tight here on a fixed income. But I feel so strongly about what Dean says and believes, I feel I owe it to him. I got a nice e-mail today from deans camp that was from his wife, who I didn't know this, but she is a Dr. as well.

Ditto unemployed, ditto coughed up $25 for the Dean campaign a while back. Figured it might help "rid the world of the evil-doers" -- or at least rid the White House.

Dean should be ashamed of himself for not stopping that vile diatribe by Al Franken. Come on. You don't have to love FOX News or Brit Hume (at whom the bulk of the vulgar speech was directed) to realize that that F-word, profanity-laden public rant by Franken was an embarrassment and pathetic. Worse were the people cheering him on.

How mature. Especially of Dean for doing nothing. Says a lot about that guy's character. I for one would not want some profane hothead running this country, that's for sure, and by not trying to stop Franken, Dean is no less vulgar than Al.

FYI Dean supporters:
http://www.blogforamerica.com/
Also I just found out:
Governor Dean will be on Good Morning America (ABC) tomorrow morning between 7:00 and 7:30 AM ET. Enjoy!

[ September 23, 2003, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: p2insdca ]

P2: I saw him, and again, thought he came off quite well. The man is just an energy ball. He has so much to say, and is full of comments and insights on things. I remember when he came to Spokane, he was the same way. I couldn't agree with him more when he said the far right was in control of the White House this morning.

puckman, do you ever go to the blog I listed above?
The people there are amazing too...of course right now it is the end of the quarter and they are trying to raise money....so if you can give a buck or two...

You must have really hated Nixon.

Wasn't it Bush who called a reporter an a**hole,
and Cheeney replied big time?
Oh wait thats right the ole dbl standard.. I just spoke ill of the president, I have helped the terrorist

Dont forget that your also a commie and love Saddam.

And you'd be a member of Al Qaeda if you could find the exact cave where to sign up...but since you can't, I guess that just makes you French!

Hardly. He's now scum in my book, and a dangerous, violent-tempered individual.


No, I didn't "hate" him. I don't hate anybody (unlike those leftists who are so filled with vile that it is sad). I disliked Nixon and am disgusted that a lot of Republicans think he was a great president. He was not.

He was scum and a pox upon the presidency.

[ September 24, 2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]

Yes it was. Labor Day 2000 in Naperville, IL. And for this ONE dirty word, Bush was excoriated by the media. Leno and Letterman went on for weeks about it. Bush erred.

Franken, however, goes on a long, profanity-filled, disgusting tirade, is cheered by Dean supporters, Dean refuses to criticize him for it, and where's the media?

Well, it's a different story here. A Republican wrongly one time calling someone an "ass****" is far worse than a Democrat calling a conservative a "f**king ass****," "cocksucker," and continuing with more profane epithets.

I guess this is what they call "fair and balanced."

It only goes to prove that Republicans are expected to hold the higher ground and be above reproach. Democrats, on the other hand, well...they're a bunch of immature babies, so such behavior is to be expected and excused.

I can't explain any other reason for such silence on Dean's part or the media's part.

MIB I am displeased that Dean did not say anything.
I would say that Dean did not say it and Bush did, there is a difference there. But I do think he ( Dean ) should have said something, in public

For what it's worth the Bush "ass****" comment was an aside to Cheney that happened to be caught on tape. Bush didn't say this in front of an audience as a means of creating some sort of spectacle. In fact, the NYT reported what was intended to be a private conversation between Bush and Cheney. If Fox News reported a private conversation between two alQ terrorists, you guys would all be freaking out.

Latest poll in NH shows Dean still leading Kerry by 12 even with Clark in the race -- Clark garners 8%.

By the way I saw the Dem debate this afternoon on CNBC. It wasn't quite as lively and wickedly entertaining as the Calif. Gov. debacle last night, but I thought Dean did quite well, and held his own under a fair amount of attack, namely from Kerry. Gen. Clark was a bit more specific on his ideas and visions. At one point Dean did say that rather than infighting, the negative enrgy should be used to unseat Shrub. I liked what his final comments were too about being the sponsor of the civil union in his Vermont. I believe it will be replayed on CNBC at 6:00pm p.s.t., thats 9:00pm back east.

I didn't see the debate but I read press reports. Kerry has no choice but to attack now because if he loses NH -- he may be toast. Gephardt has been attacking him on health care and I read that Dean really took him to task.

I'm not as hyped about Clark. I think there may be a great deal of credibility to the rumors that he has been inserted into the race by the Clintons to stop Dean. I need to see a lot more of the guy and hear what he stands for, what he has done and what he proposes to do before I'll jump on his bandwagon.

Also, maybe I'm naive -- but does military experience alone really qualify the guy to be President?

Thats the same exact question I asked about Clark a couple of days ago. Re: Dean, he handled himself admirably yesterday when Gephardt all but compared him to being like Newt Ginrich. Dean shot back that "nobody up here deserves to be compared to Newt Ginrich", and got a big hand from the crowd when he was done.
He also pointed out that the common enemy should be Shrub, and not each other. In his final comment he mentioned the fact that Vermont was the only state in the country that offered any kind of civil union for gays and lezbians. Right on Howard!!!!

Yes, Question what would be the most unpopular thing that you would do that you would feel is the most right
Gay civil unions

This evening I got an e-mail from Martin Sheen via the Dean camp, and in it he mentions how many Dem. candidates took it upon themselves to attack Dean and everything he stands for. He also said that one of the Dems. even has a website which is used to attack Dean. He urged anyone and everyone who can contribute to the Dean cause, to do so now, so that Gov. dean can buy valuable media time to counter the insider commercials and ads his opponents are runnign against him. I would also urge anyone who supports Gov. dean to contribute now anything they can. Thank you!

Hey gents,
1) Howard Dean will be on Face the Nation tomorrow
2) Looks like Dean has raised more than 12.5 millon this qtr

Today I worked the Dean booth at a local street fair. During my 2 hour shift we passed out more than 100 position papers sold more than 30 bumper stickers and won over some Greens, and former Kerry and Gephert supporters.
Was called a commie, and fing faggot, and had some intense conversations with some republicans.
I had fun with the Clinton ruined the armed forces - Really did we not win in the 2 wars under Bush? the milarty used was what was left by Clinton. Clinton left us open for the terror attacks,Ok, but Ashcroft CUT the counter terrorism budget before 9/11...

[ September 27, 2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: p2insdca ]

Huh? Ashcroft is the Attorney General. he does not have the power to cut departmental budgets.

and taking credit for Bush's two mideast victories (Iraq and Afghanistan) or attributing them to Clinton is NOT something you can do. If that's the case, then you must give credence to those that say the current economic downturn is not Bush's fault but rather.... the result of Clinton.

You can't have it bothways and take credit for Bush's wartime performance while at the same time, disavowing credit for economic malaise. it's either both or neither.

But I do congratulate you in your work on Dr.Dean's behalf. and please remember that not all republicans are anti-Dean. In fact, of all the democratic candidates, Dr.Dean is the one enjoying the greatest amount of crossover support from many republicans. Myself included.

[ September 28, 2003, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: ung ]

I saw Dean on "Face The Nation" this morning, and I must say he was under attack from the moderator Bob Schieffer, whom I don't like from the get go. He just kept trying to hammer Dean especially for his Medicare vote several years ago, that Gephardt tried to smear him with,( for supposedly siding with Newt Ginrich), and Dean I thought kept his composure quite well, when he could have easily blown up. The thing that most surprised and pleased me was when he went out of his way to portray the other Dem. contenders including Clark, as being inside the beltway politicians, who have been in D.C. for far too long. He called Clark basically a "good guy", but said he felt Clark has been a Republican up until about 25 days ago, based on Clarks votes and support of many key current administration members. All in all, I thought Dean held up quite well given the constant attacking from Schieffer. Way to go Howard!

UNG Ashcroft did cut the funding for counterterrorism in his budget proposal to Mr. Bush. He reallocated those fund to fight porn...
Base on the cycle time of training and procurement there is a lag of about 2 years in admin to admin or budget to ground. The forces used in the last two wars were Clintons budget. I would say that Clinton did skim on the inventory on hand or days of sustained combat inventory.

Dean is going to be on Jay Leno some night this week. Does anyone have specifics??

Dean will be on Leno tomorrow night, NPR "talk of the nation" today

P2: thanks for the info on Dean. wink

I think the Leno appearance will be an opportunity to showcase his personality -- his opponents have been trying to paint him as a "meany" with a trigger temper.

mdphl, anyone who condones a profanity-laden, disgusting public rant against another public official is, indeed, someone with a volatile, unstable temper. Dean is dangerous. The country does not need someone as mentally unbalanced and mean as he is.

Give me a break!! I don't disagree with you about Al Franken's inappropriateness. I haven't read much about it but I think Dean should distance himself from his comments and behavior. But to take that and say that Dean is "mentally unbalanced" that is just flat out plain stupid.

I don't like George Bush even a little bit but do I call him a hate monger because he was on the same stage as Bob Jones and a bunch of other people who are full of hate against people like me and you? Of course not.

Why don't you just tone down your rhetoric -- not only is it immature but it is reckless and insulting. Now -- take a deep breath and let's get back to reality. Do you have any EVIDENCE to prove your assertion that Howard Dean is "mentally unbalanced"?

MIB your right, who knows he might out a CIA opertive in a fit of revenge

***mdphl hypocrisy alert***

The left and the media go bonkers over this Bob Jones Univ. appearance (never mind that Dems have gone there too). It's talked about all over the place.

Little, if anything, was ever said about a public appearance by a presently popular comedian/author (who's been quite in the news lately) who launches into a disgusting tirade filled with "f**king ass****" and "cocksucker" remarks directed at a news journalist, among others.

All you can do is say that it was "inappropriate" and that Dean should distance himself from it. Well, kudos to you! That solves everything.

The fact that Dean gets huffy at the first sign of someone challenging him (Meet the Press interview and Face the Nation interview), and the fact that he thought Franken's vile routine was funny is proof enough that he's mentally unbalanced.

[ September 29, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]

MIB again you post"***mdphl hypocrisy alert***

The left and the media go bonkers over this Bob Jones Univ. appearance (never mind that Dems have gone there too). It's talked about all over the place"
I was unaware that mdphl spoke for everybody on the left...I do not know what this hypocrisy kick your on but maybe you need to eat or have you gone off your meds?

OK -- Judge -- what evidence do you have? NONE. If you are a Federal Judge as you purport to be (at least in your first profile before you changed it) you would know a few things. First, your comments about Howard Dean are probably actionable as defamation since they have no factual basis and you repeatedly make this unfounded statement which constitutes malice. Second, your theory as to why Dean is, as you say,"mentally unbalanced" wouldn't even be remotely admissible in any Courthouse either in State or Federal Court. Lastly, you can go on the attack by calling me a hypocrite but the reality is that people like Razor and some others on this Board long ago exposed your lack of credibility.

Now-- if you have evidence to support your hateful, reckless, immature and libelous comment about Howard Dean -- let's hear it!

mdphl, I do not know what kick MIB is on but I was called the same on another topic....IF he is a judge, then I have less faith in our system then before! I am starting to think the MI stands for mentaly imbalanced

So Dean is dangerous??? Thats a new one. Must be because he can take on the right wing,has energized the Democratic party, sees the current administration for what it is, namely deceitful,deceptive, secretive, and he speaks his mind. If because of this he is "dangerous", I would happily agree!

WOW just got back from a house party for Dean.
It looks like we set a few records....
After the call we sat around and talked about Dean what American means to us etc..
It was amazing many skin colors, str8, gay - born here moved here... it was one of the more powerful events I have attended.

Interesting. Why does that suddenly concern you? I have never delved into the specifics of my career in any of the forums, yet you get so obsessed with my background by more than once emphasizing it here. I think you need help, and no, you cannot share my meds. They're not strong enough to be of any benefit to you.

Hmm. I think I've just been insulted. :confused:

Give me some time to think if I should feel hurt or something.

BTW, I think you've got a complex, for whenever I refer to the Left as hypocrites, you seem to take it quite personally. Either the truth really does hurt you, or you somehow are under the impression that I am singling you out. I'd suggest dropping the delusions of grandeur.

But W has condoned his Secretary of Defense repeatedly insulting two of our major allies in a manner that is unprecendented for a Cabinet-level official; he's been silent as members of his administration spread rumors that one of those allies was issuing visas to terrorists (a grotesque lie that has subsequently been buried); he's said nothing while yet other other members of his administration referred yet again to allies as "chocolate makers" in an attempt to be snide; he's kept his trap shut as Congressional leaders of his party and their proxies have insulted the patriotism, the beliefs, and the lives of members of the opposition party; he has refused to condemn the deranged, perverse comments of the leader of yet another allied nation, when that crackpot, among other things, claimed that Mussolini merely sent his enemies "on holiday" even though it's well known he killed quite a few and rounded up 7,000 Italian Jews for the death camps; and finally, W has lashed out viciously at a news reporter, calling him an "ass****," I believe, when he thought the camera wasn't rolling.

Are you saying he's unhinged too?