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Neptune
QUOTE
MIB
If you want the Constitution to say something one year and something different the next, without its words changing, then the whole document itself is meaningless and worthless and ought to be trashed. Why even have one then?
Amend it. Period. [/QB]
Pre 1954: Separate but equal (segregation ok!)
Post 1954: Separate "inherently" unequal (segregation bad!)

The words of the 14th Amendment did not change between Plessy v. Ferguson and Brown v. Board, but the interpretation certainly did after Brown.

Silly me for thinking I could get a straight answer here to my earlier point.

There is always the risk in a democratic society that the public will do crazy capricious things that may unfairly harm/target a certain segment of the population. No doubt the "founding fathers" knew this--thus providing for Article III judges who are insulated from the whims of the public through life tenure and salary.

MIB, let's be intellectually honest here: if you are upset at the activism of the court, then you should at least admit that judicial activism was critical to the civil rights movement and the creation of a racially fair and equitable society; furthermore, a court that totally defers to the sentiments of the public might not have allowed any of these gains to be made.

By the way, what's with all of this MIB = judge nonsense? I haven't been a member of Outsports long enough to get the backstory there.
MIB
QUOTE
Neptune:
Pre 1954:  Separate but equal (segregation ok!)
Post 1954:  Separate \"inherently\" unequal (segregation bad!)

The words of the 14th Amendment did not change between Plessy v. Ferguson and Brown v. Board, but the interpretation certainly did after Brown.
How about if I tell you that both decisions had no basis in the Constitution? Or what if the first one did not but the second one did? A case wrongly decided then remains wrongly decided now. Two examples are Roe and Dred Scott (Miranda would be another--THAT decision was clearly out of the blue). Neither has ever been overturned, but they're both anti-constitutional decisions. Remember, too, that the ends do not justify the means.

BTW, I have not refused to answer your question on Brown. I'm addressing it in parts. I once wrote a lengthy piece on Brown that I had stored among my CD files somewhere. I've been trying to find it to excerpt some parts for you but so far I've been unsuccessful. sad.gif

I may just have to give up looking for that and remember what I can.
ITJock
[quote]MIB:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dinger:
[qb]

Remember, too, that it was the Supreme Court itself that said they had the sole duty to interpret laws. Recall Marbury v. Madison when Chief Justice Marshall found this power and thus began 200 years of the federal judiciary being the sole determiner of what is and what is not constitutional.

[/quote]MIB -

Are you saying you view ALL Judicial Review as unconstitutional??? Surely you are not challenging the concept of 'Review' itself?

I never imagined you leaned that far.
Isn't that a bit extremist even for you?

Even the most conservative members of SCOTUS believe in review tempered by judicial restraint.

I just want to be sure I understand you clearly.

Talk to y'all on Tuesday.

R
Neptune
QUOTE
MIB:
How about if I tell you that both decisions had no basis in the Constitution? Or what if the first one did not but the second one did?
You can tell me anything you want, not that I would necessarily believe you, especially without further support for your assertions sad.gif

I'll agree Miranda is a pretty shady opinion--it isn't clear to me that the 5th or 6th Amendment necessarily require the warnings, nor do I think the decision will be overturned anytime soon, since it's become part of the zeitgeist.

However, if you think Brown is wrongly decided how else would you strike down Jim Crow laws, if not through a reinterpretation of the Equal Protection Clause? [Or perhaps your willing to live with them.] I find it to be the height of intellectual laziness to not acknowledge that Jim Crow laws were frustrating the purpose of the 14th Amendment, under the guise of an absence of explicit text disallowing segregation.

Lastly, as long as the GLBT community continues to face the disapproval of the American public, won't any legal wins involve some of your dreaded "activism"--(e.g. Romer, Lawrence, Goodrich)? I don't want to be the ass**** that writes in language that only the lawyers among us care for, but I want to make clear what the stakes are here for queer folks.
twin58
Getting back to the topic of this thread, I point out that had you thought this story couldn't get any worse, you would be wrong.

(edited to correct a dangling participle. How embarrassing.)

A New (London) Low

QUOTE
A refrigerator box under the bridge: The Kelo Seven prepares for the worst

by Jonathan O'Connell - July 14, 2005
The Fairfield County Weekly

... The U.S. Supreme Court recently found that the city's original seizure of private property was constitutional under the principal of eminent domain, and now New London is claiming that the affected homeowners were living on city land for the duration of the lawsuit and owe back rent. It's a new definition of chutzpah: Confiscate land and charge back rent for the years the owners fought confiscation.

In some cases, their debt could amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Moreover, the homeowners are being offered buyouts based on the market rate as it was in 2000.
....

The New London Development Corp., the semi-public organization hired by the city to facilitate the deal, is offering residents the market rate as it was in 2000, as state law requires. That rate pales in comparison to what the units are now worth, owing largely to the relentless housing bubble that has yet to burst.
....

And there are more storms on the horizon. In June 2004, NLDC sent the seven affected residents a letter indicating that after the completion of the case, the city would expect to receive retroactive \"use and occupancy\" payments (also known as \"rent\") from the residents.

In the letter, lawyers argued that because the takeover took place in 2000, the residents had been living on city property for nearly five years, and would therefore owe rent for the
duration of their stay at the close of the trial. Any money made from tenantssome residents' only form of income would also have to be paid to the city.

With language seemingly lifted straight from The Goonies, NLDC's lawyers wrote, \"We know your clients did not expect to live in city-owned property for free, or rent out that property and pocket the profits, if they ultimately lost the
case.\" They warned that \"this problem will only get worse with the passage of time,\" and that the city was prepared to sue for the money if need be.
....

jonathanoc@uwalumni.com


[ August 27, 2005, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: twin58 ]
MIB
twin, I can't for the life of me ever believe that this is what our Founding Fathers had in mind when they wrote the 5th Amendment. Why do we even have a Constitution when it's been ripped to shreds so casually? frown
dinger
Words by their vary nature require interpretation. And frequently we get it wrong the first time. And doing it over hundreds of years where different circumstances are being looked at by different generations of people - things have to be relooked at, re-studied, reconsidered in light of different unique circumstances that don't fit easily into one of the past opinions.

Words have different meanings and different contexts to different people at different times. This is why people have contract disputes and why you have gazillion Christian denominations going by the same Bible. They are reading the same words, but coming up with different meanings - different rights and responsibilities than those that read the same thing before. And that's good. It's what thinking people do.

That is how ideas evolve.

I don't want the Constitution to be all rigid and strict. It needs to be flexible so that it can bend to meet our needs, as varied as they are. The document itself is not as important as the people it is there to serve and protect.
MIB
QUOTE
fantomas:
MIB, just for the record, when you refer to the document known as \"Magna Carta,\" it is perfectly fine to use the definite article \"the,\" which would have been appropriate in the original Medieval Latin. (Illa Magna Carta.) Classical Latin did not have a definite article, but Medieval writers used both \"ille\" and \"quidam\" at times to approximate what became the definite article in the Romance languages. So \"the Magna Carta\" is perfectly appropriate, and it has been so referenced in English-language texts for hundreds of years.
As it was correctly written in 1218:

"Concesserimus libertates quasdam scriptas in magna carta nostra de libertatibus."

Notice that there is no "ille" or "quidam" present.
Neptune
Why can't this esoteric pissing contest die? :confused:
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