Why not a Turkic Union, instead of wasting time with what may be a useless bid for the EU?

Turkey can never be an equal partner, anyway, until they get themselves together (hence a reconciliation, if only legal - with their eastern neighbors).

Any thoughts, gentlemen and ladies?

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

I hope the current leaders are serious about promoting a modern, more inclusive islam. Progress in the treatment of women will be an early indicator.

The opposition to Turkey in the EU seems to drifting toward biases that no change in behavior could overcome. That would be unfortunate.

This is a complicated issue; hard to say how it will be resolved. I think in the end it will come down to economic rather than cultural/religious issues. I don't think the issue of integrating a Muslim, though officially secular, country into post-Christian Europe is quite the issue that some people are making of it. But, letting in a relatively poor country of this size (60 million + population) might be a strain that the EU cannot afford, with so many poor eastern European countries already slated for membership. With as large a pool of cheap labor as Turkey offers, the unions across the continent would likely be opposed, as it would bring downward pressure on wages, benefits, work conditions, etc.--the "race to the bottom" that is often triggered by neo-liberal trade policies. But this is precisely the one competitive advantage that Turkey has in attracting investment--it doesn't have unemployment insurance, $20 an hour wages, & rules that make it practically impossible to fire workers. EU membership was a ticket out of relative poverty for Greece, Spain & Ireland, but this will not be duplicated so readily in Poland, Slovakia, etc.; it's simply a matter of scale. This time around, the integration of eastern Europe might become a drag on the rest of the members, much as the former East Germany has become a drag on Germany's economy. In this regard the admission of Turkey would be an even heavier burden.
But the EU is obviously much more than a common market; it is a transnational system that has ensured an unprecedented level of peace, prosperity & democracy for its members. In abolishing the death penalty, Turkey appears at least willing to try to meet the social/cultural prerequisites for joining; but in this it still has a long way to go, specifically citing its denial of Kurdish language & cultural rights, role of the military in politics, repression of homosexuality, etc.
Then there are external factors, such as the fact that Turkey possesses such a strategic location in terms of Middle Eastern trade and geopolitics. Also, the EU plans for admitting Cyprus will complicate matters, though Greece seems to view the admission of Turkey as a way of bringing this long-festering issue toward resolution. Also, the U.S. is applying heavy pressure behind the scenes to have Turkey admitted.
In the end I think they will get in, but probably several years down the road.

[quote]Originally posted by Billy:
letting in a relatively poor country of this size (60 million + population) might be a strain that the EU cannot afford, with so many poor eastern European countries already slated for membership.

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That puts the EU in the position of choosing one group of poor people over another. Why should they choose the eastern europeans on that basis?

Strategically and economically Turkey may be a better investment, but only if it's commitment to human rights as defined in the west is demonstrated.

I think the libreration of women will be a yardstick measuring Turkeys progress on other human rights issues.

hello~?--liberation of women? obviously you don't know much about turkey--i suggest reading 'the red crescent'. turkey had a female prime minister too. europe is xenophobic--especially toward turks--in addition, their memory of the ottoman empire still lingers. there was briefly a pan-turkic movement, but was quelled by the soviets and others. now..how about the big ten--football?

I mean, sure, turkey is great for Thanksgiving. It's an American tradition. I enjoy turkey year-round - turkey sandwiches, turkey burgers, etc. Now I know some people prefer ham for Thanksgiving, but I think - what? You mean the country Turkey? Oh, never mind.

Will you eat your turkey on your china?

[quote]Originally posted by hurrin_hoo:
hello~?--liberation of women? obviously you don't know much about turkey--i suggest reading 'the red crescent'. turkey had a female prime minister too. europe is xenophobic--especially toward turks--in addition, their memory of the ottoman empire still lingers. there was briefly a pan-turkic movement, but was quelled by the soviets and others. now..how about the big ten--football?

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Guess what I found!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/stor...2063867,00.html


I was looking for "The Red Crescent". Is that a book, or a newspaper?

My understanding about women in Turkey is that they are pretty liberated, as Ataturk liberated them and mandated that ALL Turks attend at least 5 years of schoool.

The hijab (black Muslim outfit that covers the body) was outlawed, and if you're a Muslim woman, I guess you could consider this oppression.

Nevertheless, comparatively speaking, given the otehr problems they're dealing with, Turkey's females are not really separable as an oppressed group.

LGBTs, on the other hand..... .....and I really don't know the answer to this question. I wonder wthat Amnesty International would have to say on this.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

[quote]Originally posted by Billy:
Will you eat your turkey on your china?

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Great one, Billy! LOLOLOLOLOLOL!

[quote]Originally posted by hurrin_hoo:
hello~?--liberation of women? obviously you don't know much about turkey--i suggest reading 'the red crescent'. turkey had a female prime minister too. europe is xenophobic--especially toward turks--in addition, their memory of the ottoman empire still lingers. there was briefly a pan-turkic movement, but was quelled by the soviets and others. now..how about the big ten--football?

---

Pakistan and Israel among others have also had women prime ministers. The rights of women vary, and fluctuate in these countries regardless of the gender of individual leaders.

Europe opposed, militarily with US leadership, the oppression of the islamic population in former Yugoslavia.

For the Russians, and others affected, Pan-Turkism may pose the same threat as Zionism or as the Kurds pose to Turkey. All of these movements to unite ethnic groups across national boundaries are seen as a threats by some established nation.

Non-ethnic institutions, such as what the EU should be, are a more certain safeguard of peace.

BTW I notice that these red crescent women are wearing scarves. One fear of the sceptics of the current new Turkish regime is that the ban against scarves will be lifted eliminating what they see as a symbol of Turkey's separation of church and state.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

True about Turkey, Israel, India, Pakistan (!), Great Britain, etc. having had female prime ministers/leaders. In the U.S., we've had women run for the Presidency (remember Shirley Chisholm, and Geraldine Ferraro ran for V.P.), and now the first female leader in the U.S. House, Nancy Pelosi...I guess we'll catch up eventually!

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: fantomas ]

We didn't forget the Pihilippines, did we?

Hello? No other president in world history has owned so many shoes!!



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No, Turkey's problems do not involve women's liberation. It's looking at what REAL growth in today's world is and dealing with it.

Eastern neighbors be damned - they're gonna have deal with them somehow in a way that makes sense and maybe some friendships in the process.

But right now, they're cutting off their nose to spite their face.

And, whether or not we attack Iraq, Turkey may STILL get, say, 50,000 people looking for some tea, Imam Bayildi (famous Turkish entree).....and a nation of Kurdistan.

We're talking about a nation that better get on the stick (forget the EU, 'cause they're probably, more than anything interested in wasting 5 precious years of Turkey's resources in xenophobic delay tactics) - and PRONTISSISMO.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

[quote]Originally posted by Billy:
Will you eat your turkey on your china?

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I avoid it. It leaves too much greece.

You guys are making me hungary.

You're in luck, I just made a big pot of chile!

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LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!

Knowin' your geography, the F U N way!

We don't take the fall for ANYONE, huh?

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

On Germany: What interest could Germany possibly have in Turkey except as a workforce?

One of the (very few) assets that Turkey has to offer the EU, despite its ABSOLUTELY TEARFUL number of historic ruins that it has yet to uncover and catalog, is millions of young workers eager for advancement and contribution.

The catch: If all Turkey can provide is a workforce, then

*How can they avoid the racist xenophobia that STILL plagues them from the LAST time Germany imported Turkish workers in the 60's (practically to the present)?

*How can young Turks navigate the inevitable alienation that might surely face them in a workplace so violently demanding so as to bring a great number to stress disorders, disorientation, burnout, and spiritual apathy?

A la Jack Nicholson's character in As Good As It Gets:

If Turks are so sharp, and they are.....when one considers pure bellicosity, then

*Why can't they come to SOME KIND of terms with themselves, their neighbors, and move in a direction that will, at the very least, speak to what Turkey needs (and then they can worry about the EU from a point of strength, order, and awareness)?

Otherwise, how they hope to sit at the EU and expect to be taken seriously?

For those who "just can't understand" Turkey, I think that Turks owe the world some kind of guidance if Turkey hopes to get all this assistance.....correct me if I am wrong.....


??? ???

[quote]Originally posted by bluebird48234:
We didn't forget the Pihilippines, did we?

Hello? No other president in world history has owned so many shoes!!



- - - - -

No, Turkey's problems do not involve women's liberation. It's looking at what REAL growth in today's world is and dealing with it.

Eastern neighbors be damned - they're gonna have deal with them somehow in a way that makes sense and maybe some friendships in the process.

But right now, they're cutting off their nose to spite their face.

And, whether or not we attack Iraq, Turkey may STILL get, say, 50,000 people looking for some tea, Imam Bayildi (famous Turkish entree).....and a nation of Kurdistan.

We're talking about a nation that better get on the stick (forget the EU, 'cause they're probably, more than anything interested in wasting 5 precious years of Turkey's resources in xenophobic delay tactics) - and PRONTISSISMO.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

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Uh, maybe I'm wrong, but Imelda Marcos wasnot president of the Philippines. Her husband, Ferdinand, served in that capacity (in addition to being a dictator). Corazón (Cory) Aquino was the first female president of the Philippines in 1986 (remember when she was elected after the Marcoses had to flee in disgrace?), and the first female president in all of Asia (India had a female prime minister). Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo is the current president.

OOoooops!

All I could remember were the shoes.....I didn't know enough about the Philippines then to remember clearly that she wasn't a president.

But I do know (for sure!) that the current president is female, without a large shoe collection.....

Thanks for correcting me on that one.

India's (1st, and only - to date) female Prime Minister was Indira Gandhi, correct?

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

[quote]Originally posted by bluebird48234:
One of the (very few) assets that Turkey has to offer the EU,

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How 'bout those Greece-y oil wrestlers.

Oil wrestling actually originated in Kirkpinar, Turkey (on the European side), but being on the westernmost part of Turkey, I am reminded that there MUST be some Greek (wanna-be ) wrestlers out there!

FYI: Oil wrestlers at each annual tournament use 3 TONS of oil (specifically from the "Edremit" variety)

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In post-earthquake Turkey and Greece (Greece suffered a smaller earthquake shortly after Turkey's event), the two nations should be able re-create a beautiful friendship, even if Turkey does not end up joining the EU.....

[quote]Originally posted by fantomas:
Uh, maybe I'm wrong, but Imelda Marcos wasnot president of the Philippines.

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Imelda WAS elected as a representative after returning from exile, despite all that had happened with her and her husband, so I can understand the confusion...

Oh, OK.

Yep, but she wasn't and won't be President of that country, though I'm sure she'd love the power!