Here's a question to this politically literate board: does it bother any of you that most Americans not only are clueless about how our government works (this has been borne out by various studies and polls), but also lack basic information about our closest neighbor nations in the Americas? We're fighting a war in Iraq, which admittedly is halfway across the world, but many U.S. citizens don't have a clue about Mexico and Canada which border our country (and whose histories are inextricably linked to our own), as well as other countries that are reachable by boat from Florida, like Haiti, Dominican Republic, Cuba, Jamaica, and the other Caribbean nations (MANY of which the U.S. has occupied at one point or another). Then there are the nations of Central America (which popped up as problem sites during the 1980s), and South America (which we've meddled with since their independence).

(When we suffered the blackout in August, I actually heard TWO TV reporters call Toronto the "capital" of Canada; most of my students can't name one foreign capital in the Americas outside of Washington, though they know the resorts in Mexico and the Caribbean; and I've read and heard people refer to Dominicans as "Mexicans," or assume Puerto Rico was in South America; and then there was W's bafflement about "blacks" in Brazil (I guess he'd never heard of Pelé or "Black Orpheus" or Ronaldo or samba, etc.), even though that country had the largest slave population in the Americas and was the last (in 1888) to end slavery, etc.).

I guess people could argue that we have enough to think about in the USA without considering what's going on in these countries, but their internal problems (Colombia's rebellion and drug wars; Venezuela's class struggles; the Maoist Shining Path's resurgence in Peru; Ecuador's fiscal problems; Bolivia's Indian uprising; Argentina's financial collapse; Brazil's leftward shift; etc.) all affect the US directly, not least in the issues of economics and immigration. Were there more jobs and opportunities in Ecuador, for example, or were Mexican small farmers and factory workers not devastated by the economic problems those countries, we'd have fewer illegal immigrants from those countries (as was the case before the 1990s).

What do you guys and girls think?

[ December 23, 2003, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

So, Fantomas, what you're saying is that Canada is a state without a capital?

Good grief When you used the word 'state', I hope you didn't mean it as in one of the United States? And yes, Canada DOES have a capital, it's called Ottawa, located in the province of Ontario on the border of Quebec. Toronto is simply the Centre of the Universe to Canadians, being our largest city and commercial hub. Although most of us receive all the US television networks, we tend to watch CBC and CTV so that we get a balanced coverage of domestic and international news. There is a strong perception up here that Americans simply don't care what's happening outside the US unless it affects them directly...personally I think that's a little harsh, because I've met quite a few knowledgable Americans. But just for the heck of it...name our Prime Minister, WITHOUT CHEATING.

The Right Honourable Paul Martin

All that the majority of Americans know about other countries anywhere is that Britain has a royal family. And they only know that because of Princess Di and the various scandals.

Well, that was quick! Congratulations BPT336. But wait a minute, aren't you the guy who was in Vancouver for a hockey game recently? Maybe that's how you knew the answer, being exposed to Canadian news during your visit? In any case, bonus points to you for not only getting the name right, but for spelling 'Honourable' correctly.

It was sort of a trick question; I was hoping someone would answer with 'Jean Chretien', who was our PM until just ten days ago. But I guess the news has filtered down to the US, perhaps because Martin has said he wants to forge a better relationship with our neighbour to the south (Jean and George W didn't get along very well).

Marc, yes I was in Vancouver, but I follow plenty of politics. I thought about saying Stockwell Day at first, but I figured you would beat me with a curling rock or something for that.

Stockwell Day :mad: :mad: ...ooh, don't get me started, BPT336!!

Sorry Marc.... I'll take "Canadian Politicans who won't appear on the Loony" for $1600 please Alex.

Oh and Marc, just to show you that some of us know whats going on with our great neighbour to the north, I just read where Canada's Supreme Court voted 6-3 to keep pot illegal. Of course I will credit my source here, msn.

...as Puckman supports Marc's comment about Americans' not caring about foreign news unless it affects them directly. Just kidding, Puckman

My parents were immigrants, so I am lucky to have been raised in a household with an international bent. I think it's shameful that Americans know almost nothing about the world outside the US.

What I find particularly troubling is that there almost seems to be a sense of pride attached to this ignorance (people who go to Paris and smirk at the French who do not speaking English, people who feel no embarrassment that they don't know who is Vincente Fox or what's the capital of Australia... Canberra, people who when asked to name a country in the Middle East say "Chicago"... uh, that's a city not a country and it's in the Midwest not the Middle East, etc.).

I think most Americans are interested in navel-gazing. If it doesn't directly impact their lives, they don't care about it.

I agree fantomas that most American's are generally ignorant of our neighbors in this hemisphere - especially to the South.

The United States has enjoyed unfettered dominance of this region for more than a century, (even with the Sandinistas we would never have allowed Soviet bases) so we do bare a considerable degree of responsibility for the existence we see - especially in Central and South America.

South America is truly an interesting study. No major wars of devastation on the content in the modern era, and no nuclear arsenals - with those exceptions, the United States has very little to be proud of. There's probably more dirt on our white hat from our political and economic manipulation of Central and South America than any other region of the world.

I am willing to bet, that if you asked the 'average person' on the street, "What is the capitol of California or New York or Texas?" - the replies would most likely be L.A./S.F or NYC or Houston.

Ignorance knows 'no bounds'!

Here is a good trick question to ask people on the street--- What state is Washington DC in?

Ive asked that of some people and they have to stop and think for a while.

Aquaman......reminds me of REDS owner Margie Schott at the Reds' opening game in Cincinnati 1990, after the first Gulf War. She was inebriated, and oh so very ignorant. wink

"Pre-emptive" wars: the way Americans learn geography? (Not judging by the number who think Osama is holed up in Iraq, I guess.)

We are the most willfully ignorant citizenry in history (hence, we have the leader we deserve).

Having been a history/geography geek who had all the states and their capitals memorized (in alphabetical order too!) when I was 8, my feeling about not being aware of state capitals is a big SO WHAT. Really, what difference does it make if someone from Florida doesn't know what the capital of Iowa is?

Surely people should be more aware of foreign affairs and how our own government works, but in the grand scheme, the names of state capitals are nothing more than good Trivial Pursuit questions.

Not to get too pedantic here, but if you're referring to Sacramento, Albany and Austin, then surely you mean "capital," not "capitol." The latter refers to a building where a legislature meets or, if capitalized, to the home of the U.S. Congress.

[ December 29, 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Skiguy ]

Right arm! And spelling is nothing more than someone else's opinion. So overratted! :mad:

Delusion, right where it borders on insanity.

"then surely you mean "capital," not "capitol." (Skiguy)

Mea culpa! [ironjohn heads directly to the 'People who should be shot' thread and adds the following post > People who should be shot... People who have the neurotic need to correct other people's spelling! ]

All in good fun! wink

I always enjoyed the state of Euphoria.

I've been to Euphoria! :cool:

Euphoria is lovely this time of year - the scenery is breathtaking!

If you want to talk about delusions, you should see the Canadian show "This Hour has 22 Minutes".

There was a comedian on it a couple of years ago, (all of them are from Newfoundland) named Rick Mercer.

He had a weekly comedy sketch called "Talking to Americans"

What he would do is go to various areas of the US and stop a person in the street and get them to congratulate Canada on something inane.

Like the time the GOVERNOR of Iowa, congratulated Canada on legalizing VCR's, or the US Senator, (who's name I don't remember) congratulated Canada on going to a 24 hour clock.

But the best one was good old GW, congratulating Canada's Prime Minister, John Poutine, on his election win. And he had already been elected President!! :mad: :mad:

Hint. The PM at that time is JEAN CHRETIEN.

Poutine is a French Canadian dish, consisting of French Fries, gravy and cheese curds. YUM!!!!!!

I can kind of understand the average joe not giving a shit about Canada, but shouldn't the bloody politicians have a freakin clue?

ANother question.

What is the capital of Nunavut.

WITHOUT CHEATING

I think the capital of Nunuvut used to be called Yellowknife, but now it has a native name which escapes me right now. Can I have partial credit?? wink

Sorry.

Yellowknife is the Capital of the North West Territories. And it still is. A few years ago, the eastern Arctic was made it's own territory, and it's capital was made Iqualut.

And then there's the Yukon, and the capital is Dawson.

The reason for the splitting of the NWT into NWT and Nunavut, was because the Western Arctic is mainly Inuit and Innu peoples, while the Eastern Arctic is mainly Dene peoples. Both used to be lumped under the term Eskimos, but in Canada, most people refer to the Aborigonal peoples of the north by their native names.

I should be on Jeopardy!!

I suddenly feel like I have fallen into the George W. Bush Twilight Zone of No-Knowledge.

I will acknowledge that many Americans are ignorant of their fellow continent-dwellers (and yes, we are the only ones who should call ourselves "Americans" because we are the only country in the Americas with "America" in our name), but I don't think knowing the capital of Nunavut is the hallmark for the knowledge of Canada - I mean we are talking about the NW Territories (or were, before the split), which is both pretty deserted and empty of all but a few native people (relatively - you know, compared to Montreal or Toronto or Vancouver). I wouldn't expect many Canadians to know much about New Mexico.

You mean like the Capital is Santa Fe?

And is one of the few states in the South and South West to go Democratic in the last Presidential election.

(I hope I got them right, as I didn't look them up)

Crap!! Looks like I get the "Booby prize": a case of Turtle Wax

[ January 07, 2004, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: BPT336 ]

What I should have added at the end is that you are right.

It shouldn't matter whether the average person knows about Nunavut, or New Mexico or whatever, but the fact that for 300 of the past 500 years we have had an almost common history, one would hope that the average person in American should know something.

But for politicians, especially Federal ones, ignorance is inexcusable.

I remember on a talk show about a year ago, someone mentioned to a couple of congressman that Canada was the largest single oil exporter to the US (about 30% of the total oil imports) and over 90% of the natural gas imports.

There was about a 5 minute arguement with the congressmen not beleiving it.

And they were BOTH on the Congressional sub-committee dealing with energy.

But then we have politicians who think that Hollywood Florida should be bilingual because so many French Canadians go there.

So I guess there's idiots everywhere.

What's Canada?

It's the town where all the hunky lumberjacks come from.

Fantomas, if you have ever wanted to visit Buenos Aires Argentina, now is the time. Their financial collapse has revitalized tourism there. Originally the Argentine Peso was equal 1 to 1 with the U.S. dollar, but since the collapse, the American dollar is like gold in Argentina. Argentina is referred to as the "Paris of South America" because of its grand boulevards and architecture.

I'm definitely going to get there within the next decade. I've been to Brazil several times, and would like to see the south of Brazil (like Florianópolis, where Guga is from, and Porto Alegre), which actually has many options for traveling cheaply and quickly into Argentina. (Although I'm not sure about getting harassed by the Brazilian authorities in retaliation for the US's new fingerprinting and photographing requirements.)

Friends of mine who've traveled there actually had a great time, though they did say the Argentinians--or the Porteños, the people from Buenos Aires specifically--could occasionally be somewhat haughty. One friend is not, shall we say, that attractive, described his numerous conquests with horny Argentinian hotties (and another friend backed the stories up), so I think single guys should put it on the list (along with the country I just visited, the Dominican Republic--and Brazil). I'm not single, but I've come across some gorgeous Argentinian men in the US (a nice combination of southern Italian and Spanish ancestry).

[ January 09, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Another point, which is about Mexico. I have come across some Americans who literally think Canada is another "state"--or, if they do know it is another country--a sovereign country whose government remains mysterious-at least has its own capital, even if they think it's Toronto. (Though when I was really small I thought it was Montreal, mainly because of glamorous Pierre Elliot Trudeau--does anyone else remember him? He was a character!)

Anyways, I really think we need to increase American knowledge about Mexico (as well as the Caribbean), and not simply because its history is intertwined with ours, or because it's our next door neighbor, or because 60% of the Latinos in the US are from Mexico or have Mexican ancestry (or even because we have a population of Mexican illegals about the size of Wisconsin living within our borders that our president, for political gain and the economic benefit of far too few, is aiming to give amnesty and all kinds of rights).

Our FUTURE hinges on the situation in our neighbors, not only to the north, but especially to the immediate south--Mexico's population was about 70+ million back in the late 1970s, and now it's verging on 100 million, and between the steadily increasing social and economic links between our peoples, and the need for hemispheric coordination in every way in light of globalization, we have got to have a better sense of Mexico, its government, how the country operates, its history, and what its links with us mean for its future and our own.

fantomas -- I fear most Americans still think of Mexico as just a place with great beaches (it does have them), seedy Tijuana (it is seedy), other cheap border town for buying cheap prescription drugs, and guys sleeping against a cactus during siesta covered by their serape and sombrero.

But thanks to NAFTA, the increasing commercial and trade ties between our countries should help change perceptions. My little brother, for example, goes to Mexico regularly for business since his company owns several maquiladoras, and has a much greater appreciation for the country.

There's a terrific group of young American political types -- Hill staff, municipal officials, state party activists, etc. -- that sponsors an annual forum with a similar group down in Mexico -- now that Mexico is finally building a stronger multi-party system. Those sort of exchanges really help.

Speaking of Brazil -- have you been following Lula? Seems the socialists and the other leftists there are quite disenchanted with their leader. He's turned out to be IMHO a pleasant surprise. ... oh and we're aiming to get to Bahia for vacation in April. Can't wait!

I used to give map quizzes in my classes (college history, at some pretty sizeable universities) where people could not locate Brazil (put it anywhere in South America, you've got a 50-50 shot at being right, guys). I once asked what the original 13 states were, and had people tell me that among the original 13 states were Atlanta, Chicago, and Denver.

I had students in Michigan who couldn't tell me the official languages of Canada (umm, it's 80 miles away, guys....) . I also had students in Alabama who could not find Florida on a map, and who responded on a reading quiz to the question, "Is Christianity was monotheistic or polytheistic?" that it was, indeed, polytheistic (and yes, we did define the words in class).

Yeah, I think that these kids need to learn something about India, since, if they want a tech job, they might have to go there. I'm not completely sure what they taught in high school, but this is the future of our democracy. Deity-of-your-choice help us all.

Actually Bucky, there is an article in the Journal of Commerce this past week about NAFTA also hurting Mexico severly. Their trade has gone up with us significantly. However due to the rise in wages of low skill workers, all the low skill jobs went to China and other Asian countries. I believe in Mexico they make $1.39 whereas in China is like 89 cents an hour.

I get to see NAFTA in action though since I work for an intl shipping company. And our national trade deficit as well.

Originally posted by LkSimcoe:

Sorry LkSimcoe, but in the interest of accuracy, the capital of Yukon Territory is Whitehorse , not Dawson City. Also, about the Inuit and Dene...it's actually the other way around. The Dene people live mainly in the Northwest Territories, while the Inuit form the majority in Nunavut. Better this coming from a fellow Canadian before some sharp American spots the error!

DCBucky, it's great to hear about the exchange you mention, and about your brother's business with Mexico. I've read comments where some Americans were asked about Mexico, and they thought Pancho Villa was the president, or didn't know that Mexico had a president, or thought that Acapulco was the capital, and so on. But you are right that those resort towns like Cabo San Lucas, Mazatlan, Acapulco, etc., as well as Tijuana in all its sleaziness, and the cross-border possibilities of cheaper drugs are part of our national consciousness. That and the imperative "to never drink the water" down there.

I have been following Brazil and Lula pretty closely, and what's fascinatnig is that he is literally pulling a Clinton by triaging his party and the Left there in general while remaining personally very popular. Several members of his very Left-wing Worker's Party have quit, shifted their alliances to other socialist parties, or attacked him publicly for his pursuit of what would be moderate-to-conservative economic and social policies. Meanwhile, rightist legislatures have developed new alliances with him, thus making possible his recent reform of the pension system, which many Leftists did not think was possible.

So far his key left-leaning acts have been to appoint a number of black Brazilians to high-level posts (including judgeships), to challenge the US on free trade, make overtures to Fidel Castro, and declare Brazil's opposition to the Iraq war. These are mostly political vs. policy actions. In terms of policy, he's been far more moderate-conservative: he's pursued a fairly fiscally austere debt reduction plan, pushed for lower interest rates, proposed cutting taxes on the wealthy, allowed genetically modified crops from the US to be brought to Brazil, pushed actively for Brazil's space program, repeatedly confronted the Sem-Teto and Sem-Terra (Without Roof and Without-Land activists who literally take over people's property, etc.), and spoken of resuming nuclear weapon construction. Who would EVER have thought an uneducated former union activist would be taking such stands? It's not totally surprising, however, because his predecessor, F. H. Cardoso, was a famous left-wing academic whose moderate-to-conservative policies helped to turn around Brazil after more conservative leaders had bungled its return to democracy. What's also interesting is that the Brazilian right's--and the US right's--predictions about Lula and Brazil have proved so wrong. In Brazil, some extreme rightists had gone so far as to start assassinating members of the PT in the lead-up to the election--yet Lula still won, the PT won in a number of states, and it's probably safe to say that while Brazil still has a long way to go, it's probably better off than had the right-wing gotten control of the country. That hasn't worked in Colombia, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia--anywhere in Latin America--in recent years.

BTW, drop me a personal note about your trip to Bahia. It's an amazing place!

Interesting thread, even if it jumps back and forth between discussions of different countries. The furthest south I have been is Belize (a small yet diverse and fascinating country), but I hope to visit South America within the next few years, and am particularly interested in Brazil, Suriname, Peru, Argentina and Chile.

I was browsing through the 2003 Global Almanac to get a sense of the quality of life in the countries of South America, using life expectancy and literacy rates as measures. I was a little surprised to find that Brazil lags significantly behind virtually all other countries in South America ( note : no stats available for French Guiana). A Brazilian male can expect to live just 59 years, a female to age 68, and the literacy rate is 85%. The only other countries that come close to those figures are Bolivia and Guyana. At the other end of the scale, the people of Argentina, Chile and Uruguay have life expectancies of 72-73 for males and 79 for females, and literacy rates above 96%. These figures are only slightly lower than the USA (74M/80F, 99%) and Canada (76M/83F, 99%).

Looking at the entire Western hemisphere, however, there are several nations with lower literacy rates than Brazil, but only one that fares worse in both measures ( far worse, in fact). That country is Haiti, where the life expectancy is just 48 for men and 51 for women, with a literacy rate of only 49%. These appalling figures are actually worse than many African countries.

Well, the thing to keep in mind about Brazil is this: it's the most populous country in South America, and the second most populous after the US in the Americas (at 170 million people), and its economy dwarfs all the other Latin American nations except Mexico's, particularly because Brazil has not only a highly developed agricultural sector (coffee, soy, sugar, beans, etc.) and vast mineral resources (amethyst, diamonds, bauxite, oil, etc.), but also is the industrial powerhouse of Latin America (cars, airplanes, electronics. etc.). HOWEVER, it also has the most extreme disparities in income among its citizens, with the wealthiest people possessing the majority of capital (and access to capital) and the poorest basically with NOTHING. What exacerbates Brazil's problems is that most of its major cities (São Paulo, Rio, Salvador, Porto Alegre, Belo Horizonte) juxtapose extraordinarily rich people--the beneficiaries of Brazil's economic might--with people living in conditions that would make people in the South African homelands, for example, feel at home--the favelados. So this has produced social conditions that are quite extreme, and when you add on racial and gender issues--Brazil has the largest population of people of African ancestry outside of Africa--it has created a country that, despite its wealth, has social indicators that fall far below its potential. Thus the mocking tone among some concerning Brazil's motto, which is "The country of future." Its current president, a supposedly committed leftist, was supposed to push for income equality, land reform, etc., but he's taken a different tack as did his predecessor, a noted intellectual and boutique Marxist who governed like a neoliberal. So all in all, Brazil is a very rich and very poor country, in many ways, and hopefully it will be able to draw upon its numerous resources to solve its myriad problems. But I would urge you to see it in person--it is definitely worth the trip.

BTW, Argentina's situation took a turn for the worse a year ago, though things appear to be turning around under leftist Nestor Kirchner. The country literally was bankrupt. But its economy is growing again and Argentina, for a long time the wealthiest and usually considered the most European of all the Latin American nations (which allowed it for many years to look down on Brazil) is on the rebound, I gather. Bolivia experienced a coup of sorts last fall, when the most Indian and mestizo masses got fed up and forced the resignation of its pro-Washington leader Sanchez de Lozano. Bolivia has a hardcore socialist, Evo Morales, waiting in the wings; and Indian himself, he's big with the indigenous masses in the highlands and the trade unions and probably will lead the country into the kind of crisis now plaguing Venezuela, but Sanchez de Lozano was ineffectual and really did have to go,

Haiti, as you probably know, has been plagued by problems since its independence in 1804, making this year its 200th anniversary, and making Haiti the second oldest country in the Americas and the world's first black Republic. (Only one foreign leader, the president of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki, attended the commemoration ceremonies, and thugs shot at his helicopter as it was landing in the provincial capital of Gonaîves!) Haiti has suffered almost continuous political instability and turmoil (including several long dictatorships), hostility from the major international powers (especially the US, which refused to recognize it until decades later, as was the case with Liberia), a continuing debt issue with France (which though defeated by Haiti required it to pay exorbitant restitution costs the country has never recovered from), gross undercapitalization, environmental degradation, and on and on. I find it quite extraordinary that despite Haiti's endless crisis its population of nearly 8 million soldier on and have given the world of Caribbean arts in particular some of its treasures. But it is a powder-keg, and the current president (dictator), ex-priest Jean-Bertrand Aristide, who began with such promise but yet whose now as bad as any strongman out there, is going to have to step aside and push to disarm his anti-democratic thugs, the Lavalas Family party, a murderous syndicate of the extremely poor who have seized power and intimidate anyone and anything who attempts to challenge them. As a result, the USA and the EU have suspended ALL payments to Haiti. It's really a mess--Haiti basically operates like Zimbabwe, except it doesn't even have the natural resources of that country.

[ January 12, 2004, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Thanks Marc. I was flying on memory fumes I guess.

Do you remember the group Kashtin? They were Dene, and were from Northern Quebec, north of Rouyn-Noranda.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Summit of the Americas, recently held in Monterrey, Mexico. This seems like an appropriate thread to post the following link, from the Globe and Mail, summarizing the highlights of the conference.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/Articl...the+americas%22

It was disturbing to read that, according to President da Silva of Brazil, 100 million people in Latin America earn less than $2 US per day. Considering the social problems in his country, I can understand his reluctance to commit to a firm deadline for implementing the FTAA.

In another article, it was mentioned that Jean Bertrand Aristide has agreed to hold 'free elections' in Haiti within the next six months. But the story that got the most hype in the press here in Canada was the fact that our new Prime Minister, Paul Martin, had his first formal meeting with George W. Bush. Martin was on a mission to try to mend fences with the US President, as it is no secret that Bush and Jean Chretien were not exactly warm and fuzzy with each other. But Martin had to be careful not to appear to be getting too cosy with the US...that doesn't go over too well up here, especially when there is a Republican president in power. Topics covered included Canada's role in the re-building of Iraq, the BSE crisis and the deplorable treatment of Mehrer Arar (a Canadian citizen who was deported by the US to Syria where he was imprisoned and tortured for nearly a year...although it turns out our own RCMP wasn't exactly blameless in this either).

By the way Fantomas, thank you for your interesting and knowledgable post about the socio-economic conditions in Brazil and elsewhere in Latin America. If and when I ever get a chance to see more of that part of the world, I know I'll find it fascinating, although before going I should probably brush up on my Spanish and learn a little Portuguese while I'm at it.

LkSimcoe, yes I vaguely remember the name Kashtin, but I don't have any of their music. Here's a link to a Kashtin web page:

http://www.canoe.ca/JamMusicPopEncycloPage...htin.html#disco

Offhand, I can think of only a couple other Canadians of native descent who are known in the music industry, Buffy Ste. Marie and Robbie Robertson (of The Band).

Marc

I still have a couple of their CD's and they sing mainly in their native tongue. Some of their songs are also in French, and later on, as they became more popular, they recorded a couple of songs in English.

As for other Aboriginal singers, how could you forget Susan Iglukark. And Sylvia Tyson is part Aboriginal I think, (I know, that doesn't count).

Also, does it count that Shania Twain's stepfather is 100% aboriginal?

I'm surprised no one has started a thread about this or mentioned it here: Ugly American-ism alive and well: Tee hee. Arrogant dickhead. Rot for all I care.

[ January 15, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]