Just wanted to pass this one on.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...56p-47453c.html

These guys are just amazingly stupid! Not surprising there are players that feel this way and I don't know why I am surprised when these dolts continue to say such things out loud. I'd say it now makes me want to root for the Raiders, but there are undoubtedly some of them that feel the same way (despite its proximity to San Francisco as Ferguson so intelligently points out).

Well yeah, it's even more amazing that Garrison Hearst even wants to play football in the gayest city in the U.S.

I know this dead horse has been beaten once already but it kills me that a lot of straight guys think just because you're gay means your a freak or that you're automatically attracted to every man out there. Seeing Ferguson's mug, I'd want to look the other way if I was in the same shower as he.

While there is no doubt that Ferguson should be severely reprimanded for his indefensible comments, I must admit that my first thought when I read the transcript of the question and answer session was how could ANY professional athlete be so stupid as to not see they were being set up by that idiot Howard Stern - again??....I, for one, would love to see the Jets heavily fine or even suspend Ferguson (if any current NFL coach would take a strong stand against such action it would seem to be Herman Edwards IMHO) though I doubt that will take place in lieu of the "punishment" (or lack thereof to be more accurate )received by Shockey and Hearst for their similar outbursts.

I'm sorry to say that something tells me that Ferguson's openly public expressions of bigotry earned him some back slaps, high fives, and laughter from a few of his teammates in the locker room (excluding the intelligent ones like Rhode Scholar candidate Chad Pennington, of course)....I am appalled, however, that these incidents are occurring with an ever increasing amount of regularity and feel that the "ho hum" response by the media, league, and respective teams to the statements of their players is a VERY BAD sign....I certainly hope that I am proven wrong and that Ferguson is fined and punished for his actions....although it won't keep me from rooting for the Jets to make it to the Super Bowl -- at least the comment wasn't made by Pennington, Chrebet, Martin, Moss, Coles, et al -- they all have too much class to hold those beliefs (right? )

[ January 11, 2003: Message edited by: gamecock ]

The Daily News headline's a little coy, too, don't you think? "Shocking gay taunt from Jet" Eat me, dickhead. (Hmm, is that the right retort for this situation?)

As of now, the wire services haven't picked it up, and according to the Greenwich CT Time, the Jets have had "No comment".

Damn I'm getting tired of listening to these fools insult us... The NFL has got to start taking a position, and taking action at the League level.

[ January 11, 2003: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

[quote]Originally posted by gamecock:
I must admit that my first thought when I read the transcript of the question and answer session was how could ANY professional athlete be so stupid as to not see they were being set up by that idiot Howard Stern - again??....

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Howard Stern may, in your opinion, be an idiot. But it isn't fair to lay the blame on him anymore than it is to blame the reporter from the Sacramento Bee for what Hearst said or the Sports Illustrated reporter for what John Rocker said or the reporter from Bryant Gumbel's HBO show for what Sharpe (can't remember which one, Shannon or Sterling)said. Stern may have posed the question in a more "Beavis and Butthead", 6th grader way, but the response would have been the same if Walter Cronkite himself had posed the query. Freguson, Hearst, et al are the idiots here.

[quote]Originally quoted by GeorgeVikingFan
Stern may have posed the question in a more "Beavis and Butthead", 6th grader way, but the response would have been the same if Walter Cronkite himself had posed the query.

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I have to disagree, Geo. If he were being interviewed on ESPN SportsCenter (which they broadcast over and over again), he would have probably been more careful in choosing his words.
The Howard Stern show thrives on an It's-cool-to-be-a-jackass atmosphere, because the vast majority of the listeners are ready to laugh WITH you, and not AT you.

Just My 2-cents.

Oh come' on guys what's so bad about all this? So what he doesn't want to take a shower with gay men. I wouldn't want to take a shower with a woman. As a matter of fact every time in my adult life I have sensed a woman trying to flirt and/or get close to me, I too become kind of uncomfortable.

And how can any professional athlete possibly give honest thoughtful answers on the Howard Stern Show? How can they with Stern egging them on and Robin Quivers constantly cackling in the background. They're both troublemakers and would like nothing more than to have a bunch of people call their show to complain. They love the attention. Just ignore them and move on.

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: amazin12 ]

Not to turn this into a pro-Howard Stern thread, but we've got the comments Shockey and Ferguson made on his show vs. the comments made by Hearst, Rocker and Sharpe. The latters', to my mind, are MUCH scarier and more harmful in that they were given in a "professional" interview environment. Shockey and Ferguson were on a comedy show. They may have felt a need to "play along" or be controversial. It certainly doesn't excuse what they said, but I am much more troubled by what the other idiots said in the context of a "serious" interview.

And at least when these things are said on Stern's show, the comments are out there for all to here. With the interviews given to the Sacramento Bee, Sports Illustrated, HBO and undoudtedly countless other media outlets, I'm sure comments like this were for years were swept under the rug. Reporters didn't want to lose access to the athletes. Dare I say I give credit to Stern for shining the spotlight on the issue, however unintentionally.

I guess my point is if you dislike his show fine; but he is no more responsible for these idiot's comments than the other reporters. I don't see why Stern's eliciting of these responses is any more egregious than the other reporters'.

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

There has been a fair amount of positive press about gay athletes in the last few years. We all applaud when we see it. But we have to understand that there are always two sides to any argument and not everyone will be on our side.

Ferguson's comments have to be expected - there hasn't been a wholesale acceptance yet in society and it will take time - perhaps a generation - for things to shake out the way we want them to. Some members of society will come around sooner than others. Ferguson appears to be at the back of the line, not the front.

Hope the NFL responds with the same pressure for an apology from this guy - his apology will get more press attention and positive thinking for us in society than his original comment to Stern did. And I agree - I ain't takin no showers with this guy!

[quote]Originally posted by amazin12:
every time in my adult life I have sensed a woman trying to flirt and/or get close to me, I too become kind of uncomfortable.

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That's not a fair comparison, amazin12. What's offensive is the assumption (pre-judgement) that 1) there aren't gay guys in his locker room already, guys who are there to play football, and have no interest in "flirting and/or getting close" to a pea-brained, bigoted teammate, and 2) that we are uncontrollably predatory toward EVERY SINGLE non-gay man we encounter, and can't keep our eyes, hands or mouths off their delicate (yet manly and magnificent) penises.

It's obvious that Messrs Ferguson, Hearst and Shockey are FAR more obsessed with their own dicks than any gay man would ever think of being. Obsessed and outright terrified, it's obvious. While it's not likely that their attitudes can even start to change without months of counseling and prayer <sarcasm alert!>, the eternal truth that has yet to sink in is a simple one. "Better to let a reporter _suspect_ you're a bigoted idiot than to open your mouth and prove it in front of millions, then look like an even bigger fool when you have to pretend you didn't mean it." Freakin' D'UH, dudes! Just keep your filthy traps closed, that's all we ask...

[quote]Originally posted by Theo:
I know this dead horse has been beaten once already but it kills me that a lot of straight guys think just because you're gay means your a freak or that you're automatically attracted to every man out there.

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And just where do they get those ideas from, I wonder. Surely it couldn't be anything some of us in our own "community" are doing ourselves!

Therre's no excuse for stupid remarks like these, but I submit there's also no excuse for exhibiting behavior that provides the basis for them. Face it guys, we've got to discourage gays who feed into these stereotypes from doing so!

OK, it's 10:00 - gotta watch the 'Niners!

Don't take the bait, guys, we've covered this ground before. All it generates is more bad feelings, which apparently is the point.

No, RSB, I'm not here to piss people off, especially on a Sunday, but sometimes remarks beg to be answered because the answer is so clear, and this was one of them. I'll be perfectly happy if the thread closes without further adieu.

We seem to be dwelling on the negative here. Since Howard Stern seems to bait any pro athlete that appears on his show with the same question (which is his right), why do we never hear of those who respond "It wouldn't matter to me if someone on my team is gay," or "Sure, someone on my team might be gay, but it doesn't present any problems on the field or in the showers," or "What a childish question, Howard." Surely there HAVE been pro athletes on Stern's show who have answered the question in such positive way? (Someone who listens to his show might be able to address this.)

And if/when that day comes (and when Howard doesn't edit it out as not being worthy of his listening audience), would said athlete instantly be proclaimed to be a champion of gay rights and tolerance by our community, or would it simply be swept under the rug? These "stories" only seem to be see the light of day when the media, so obsessed with titillation and low-ration, can exploit it to feed a public that craves it (including "us," it seems).

The half-dozen or so athletes who have made these ignorant comments may have their day (and of course we do need to hear about these instances), but what of their gay and gay-positive teammates who are for the most part ignored? I think we might try focusing more on the heroes of "our great cause," instead of wasting our energies obsessing on the brain-dead that walk among us.

No further reports or comments on Ferguson's fear of showering with other men. Since he didn't call anybody a "faggot", apparently it's not a problem.

[quote]Originally posted by Seph:
what of their gay and gay-positive teammates who are for the most part ignored? I think we might try focusing more on the heroes of "our great cause"

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Oh, right, of course! All our gay and gay-positive pro athletes! Here, let's make a list:
1.


(Ok, I admit it, I'm a member of the Cult of Victimhood tonight. Where's BoSoxRudy, anyway, when I need him to slap it out of me? )

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

Right on both counts, rsb. The silence is deafening.

I guess I'm in the minority, but I'm just not that offended by Ferguson's comments. First of all, although he made the stupid statement that there are no gays on the NY Jets (out of 50+ guys?), he did say he wouldn't have a problem with it outside the locker room. That's a hell of a lot better than Shockey, who said he "wouldn't stand for a gay teammate". He wouldn't be comfortable with a guy he knows is gay in the shower...it's irrational, it's immature, but it's important to note that he has NOT said that he wouldn't want to have one as a teammate, just that he wouldn't to shower with him. If I were his teammate, I'd roll my eyes, but I could live with it.

As far as NFL players who are gay-positive, quite a few of Tuaolo's former teammates would qualify.

I agree with you, JC. In fact, I'll go a step further: I can totally buy a straight guy not wanting to shower next to a guy he knows is gay. I can't even piss comfortably next to a straight guy who knows my deal; I'm always paranoid he thinks I'm checking him out (and believe me, that's the LAST way I want to see a penis presented).

It doesn't have anything to do with fear of a "pass". NFL players are not worried about being molested in the shower. It's just the idea that the guy next to you might be turned on by seeing you naked. If that was easy to deal with for ANY man, there'd be a lot more closet doors opening up a lot sooner around the world. Can we please not pretend that straight football players are being childish and stupid for not understanding a concept that millions of gay men struggle with their entire lives?

It's a comfort-zone thing. I've never made a play for any of my straight friends, and they're totally cool with me, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they'd think twice before jumping into a shower room with me, and it's not something I'd willingly do, either. You can say it's an ignorance issue, and the problem could be eliminated by discussion and reassurance, and that might very well be true, but I think the gut-reaction on both sides is "too uncomfortable". And I doubt anyone in the NFL, players OR management, is taking steps to make it otherwise.

Even NOT granting the shock-value context of the Stern show, I think Ferguson's remarks were pretty tame (although I'm just going by what I read; I didn't hear the show). Certainly not in the same class as Hearst, or even Shockey (I cut him the same slack on the shower issue, but found his "I wouldn't stand for it" nonsense sad at best).

I'm not suggesting Ferguson be appointed Grand Marshall of the next Pride Parade, but I don't think he should be villified, either. Certainly not when there are so many other truly mean-spirited individuals out there.

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Alton ]

Okay, so I'm going to continue beating the dead horse.

originally posted by Alton:
[quote] It's just the idea that the guy next to you might be turned on by seeing you naked. If that was easy to deal with for ANY man, there'd be a lot more closet doors opening up a lot sooner around the world. Can we please not pretend that straight football players are being childish and stupid for not understanding a concept that millions of gay men struggle with their entire lives?

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Alton, I just can't see why this argument makes sense - most gay men do not stay in the closet because they have a problem with other guys being turned on by their naked bodies (and I speak from 20 years of experience in the closet). And why do you think it is rational for a straight man to get all weirded out that a gay guy might find him attractive? If another person finds you attractive, and doesn't make a play or pass at you, how would you know? And even if you did figure it out, why is that not a compliment? Women reporters are allowed in locker rooms, when guys are not necessarily dressed, but no player seems concerned that some ugly female reporter finds them attractive (I am assuming they wouldn't mind it if an attractive female reporter had the same feelings).

I think the larger issue, more than Ferguson, Shockey or Hearst is the league's complete acceptance of this type of bigotry. They would never have a "no comment" if a white player said they didn't want to shower next to a black player. But homophobia is built into the sports experience for so many athletes, coaches and management that they consider the prejudice to be completely acceptable.

This is not an issue where the "two sides to every argument" idea holds much water. Either the league is committed to letting those with the skills and ability to play professional football into the league, or they want to limit access.

Because it's "normal" and "right" for women and men to be attracted to each other. Most straight guys WOULD probably appreciate it if any woman, regardless of whether or not she's ugly, found his naked body attractive. But that kind of attention from a man is "weird".

You're absoluelty right that the league would and should take steps if similar comments were made re: a black player in the shower. But racism is overtly rejected at a national level, while homophobia is still tolerated. The best the NFL can hope for at this point is "don't ask; don't tell". Is that fair? Of course not. But it's the way it is, and it will probably remain that way until a gay Jackie Robinson comes out and paves the way for all other active homo players. Whoever he is, he'll truly be a hero; I doubt many gay men (myself definitely included) could be that brave.

Please understand, CPT: I'm not trying to make excuses for Ferguson. All of us have the choice to reject societal or parental conditioning and become our own person. I'm just saying I think I understand where he's coming from. From that perspective, what he said didn't seem so bad to me.

Alton, I get where you're coming from, but I hate to see us agree that the "normal" revulsion straight guys are taught to feel about gay guys should be accepted at the league level. I am not just thinking about Ferguson (who, in fact may have been trying to make a lame joke to deflect the leading question), but both the league and the "pro-gay" players who have been quoted. The league says "we allow anyone to play, orientation is not an issue," and the pro-gay players say "I don't care but other guys will." It may be a pipe dream, but if Rosey Grier can do needlepoint and get away with it, one of these professional football players has got to have the guts to say "I don't care if my teammate is gay, and anyone who does is a fool/idiot/moron." Like I said, it's probably a pipe dream.

[quote]Originally posted by Alton:
I can't even piss comfortably next to a straight guy who knows my deal; I'm always paranoid he thinks I'm checking him out (and believe me, that's the LAST way I want to see a penis presented).

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Do you get uncomfortable watching a woman talk authoritatively about a sport that only men play?

The lockerroom is the pro player's workplace. A straight players "discomfort" is fine as long as it doesn't extend to discrimination.

If I was a pro player I would want Ferguson to keep his homophobia at home.