"It's the way God wants it to be."

So sayeth Mayor Ray Nagin in a speech commemorating Martin Luther King Day. Nagin also said, "Surely God is mad at America. He sent us hurricane after hurricane after hurricane, and it's destroyed and put stress on this country."

Has he been hanging around Pat Robertson?

Re. the "chocolate" comment, what if a white person would have said something like, "[insert city name here] will be vanilla again"?

Edited per my esteemed colleague's suggestion.

[ January 16, 2006, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]

Wouldn't they say vanilla?

Yeah, you're right. I'll correct that.

Anyway, on topic you're right, public figures should be held accountable for their statements, no matter their race. I've actually spent an hour debating this exact topic on another messageboard and this was pretty much the consensus.

Although some thought we should wait until Nagin explains his words, even though I get the feeling the foot will be inserted in the mouth.

I had the same train of thought as you, MIB, when I heard this story. There is a talk show host in town, Steve Dahl, who caught a lot of heat when he came up with some goofy bit involving a new cocktail, called a New Orleans Hurricane, shortly after Hurricane Katrina. It included a chocolate "baby" floating in the drink. I did not hear the bit, but I guess it was ripe with racial overtones. Funny how he caught so much flack over this, yet Nagin goes on unscathed. I thought it was silly of Nagin to go on about how New Orleans is being punished by God. I too thought it was as silly as what comes out of the mouth of Pat Robertson. I found it ironic that his statements were uttered on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, a day in which we should all judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. What's next for Nagin...a brown paper bag test for folks who wish to move back to New Orleans?

[ January 16, 2006, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: millerbeach ]

Nagin would pass the test with his sexy self, LOL!*

Come on, he's playing to his constituency, which includes the hundreds of thousands who're dispersed all over the country (but primarily in Texas). His comments were unwarranted, but seriously, you've got White politicians and developers basically saying they want to keep the Black population low in New Orleans, so his stupid statements were a response to that. (And DC used to be known as "Chocolate City," though I guess Atlanta or Detroit could vie for that honor now.)

Also keep in mind that when people throw God's or Christ's names in the mix, they can almost get away with anything. Look at our Wiretapper-in-Chief.

Plus, do you not think that Tom Tancredo of Colorado wouldn't get MORE votes if he said that he wanted to make the United States (not a city that has long had a strong African-American profile) "vanilla"? And he's not the only one.

I just wish some of my fellow Black people--and some Whites, Latinos and others--would stop repeating the insane rumors that someone dynamited those levees down in New Orleans. THEY WERE UNDERFUNDED AND POORLY BUILT! They didn't need to be dynamited! You've even got Spike Lee repeating this nonsense!
--
*You do know, of course, that the "brown-paper bag" test is a longstanding African-American issue, though traditionally you couldn't be DARKER than the paper bag to be admitted to certain fraternities, clubs, etc.

Fantomas, I am glad that the irony of my usage of the term "brown paper bag test" was not lost on you. When I first wrote that term, I worried no one on this board would know what I was referring to. I understand Nagin is attempting to appeal to his voters, but for once, could he aspire to take them to higher ground instead of repeating cheap, heart-tugging sound bites?

Of course he wants the "chocolates" to return to New Orleans. How else will this completely ineffective mayor have a hope of getting reelected?

Here's an honest question for the masses here: should New Orleans even BE rebuilt?

Forget the politics for the moment. Forget the 9th ward, Katrina response, etc. I ask this from a practical, logistical, geographic, and even a meteorological point of view.

Think about it. New Orleans, a wonderful city with fantastic architecture, great music, and outstanding food--love that cajun!--basically sits at the bottom of a bowl, surrounded by water, well below sea level, right along the Gulf of Mexico. Odds are likely that a hurricane even greater than Category 3 Katrina is going to hit that city, probably wiping it out for good.

Is it time we make the tough but correct decision of not rebuilding the Big Easy? Or is it correct to rebuild it?

[ January 17, 2006, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: MIB ]

In your effort to vilifie the government, you forgot to mention the hurricane, you know the reason why the levees failed.

As for Nagin's comments...inappropriate at best. If my mayor (a white man) said this about white people, I would be outraged, as should the people of NO with Nagin's comments.

These comments are nothing new. I watched a short news story about the shortage of workers in New Orleans, and similar comments were made then (at least a couple months ago). City leaders (mayor, city council president) were quite concerned about the influx of Hispanic workers, and thought that every effort should be made to hire black workers first. They interviewed a black contractor who said he wouldn't hire Hispanics, only black people. Imagine a white person saying something like this. I agree that the politicians are catering to their base, but it's still disgusting to listen to the leaders of a city with as much cultural diversity as N.O. spew out this crap.

As for N.O. being rebuilt, MIB, you know not all of it is below sea level. The functioning sections above sea level should certainly be kept going, but I do think it's foolish to rebuild the lowest of the low-lying sections. There's simply no defense against a major hurricane, and those sections will flood again.

Quoth fantomas:
You're acting as apologist. If this sort of crap is wrong when it comes out of Robertson or Falwell's mouth, it's wrong when it comes out of Nagin's. Frankly, if Nagin's reacting to this big whitey-conspiracy to re-make NO white, then I suppose I wouldn't have a problem with him addressing that so-called conspiracy. But to to say God wants NO to be chocolate just sickens me... in the same way that I am sickened by Palestinians and Jews claiming that God has decreed that some little slice of sand belongs to them.

They've built in a dangerous area, but it should be re-built. Why? Because most major cities in this country sit in very dangerous areas. California is open to earthquakes, parts of St. Louis have expanded out into the flood plains that will be destroyed if the flood of 1993 were to be repeated. Just because it could happen again doesn't mean we shouldn't rebuild. Although, caveat emptor.

[ January 17, 2006, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Illini_fan ]

Why are blacks not held to the same level of criticism on racism as whites? This man is a racist saying he doesn't want whites in his city. It's plain wrong and he should be relieved of his duties. The double standard has gone on too long and it's time for ALL of us to live to the same standard.

Did Nagin say he doesn't want whites in New Orleans? Did he say that, or is that your interpretation? There ARE white people in New Orleans, right now, as I type this. There are White business owners, White residents, White citizens, White tourists. So what are you talking about? He didn't say he didn't want Whites, he said he wanted the hundreds of thousands of Black people who were dispersed to come back. He's said this since the hurricane happened.

The reason some people respond differently when Whites and Blacks (or Latinos or any other group) make comments that could be construed is racist is because White people have most of the power and resources in this country. They also had the power to enslave millions of people for two centuries, they had the power to write laws so that those enslaved people's descendents could not get a fair opportunity, had to live in segregated communities, go to substandard schools, etc. Many White people fought alongside the non-whites (and this includes Asians, who were barred from immigrating, who were interned in camps, etc., and Latinos, who were treated as second-class citizens, Indians who were slaughtered, etc.) to help change the laws, end the state sanctioned violence, and so on, but keep in mind that today Whites are still the majority, still control most of the resources, and still hold most of the power. We have White governors of every state except New Mexico, the Senate has only a handful of non-White members, the Congress is more diverse but Whites are still the vast majority, and Whites control the boardrooms of most major corporations, though this is changing. To speak as if we're living in a vacuum or everything is equal makes no sense. That doesn't excuse Nagin's comments, but they're also qualitatively different from Trent Lott's, Thurmond's, Bennett's, etc.

As to Shep, New Orleans has suffered many hurricanes. This one was particularly devastating because of a failure, which had been predicted repeatedly, to ensure that the levees could withstand a category 5 hurricane. If you want to be blind and act like that discussion never occurred, either before Hurricane Katrina, or afterwards as the devastation was occurring, fine. But it did, and yes, I was vilifying the government, which failed to do its job, both in terms of the Army Corps of Engineers, and after Hurricane Katrina hit, as the ENTIRE WORLD SAW, when FEMA under "Heckuvajob" Brownie screwed things up royally.

In terms of "Hispanics," the issue wasn't and isn't "Hispanics," but illegal immigrants. I listened to Black and WHITE Louisiana residents complainining about Halliburton bringing in illegal immigrants to do the work at below-market rates. The same thing is true in Mississippi. So rather than miscontrue the issue as being anti-Hispanic, it's really a misguided focus on immigrants, whom I don't blame, since they're there to do a job and are being played against the residents, of all races, who'd like to do the work. Don't forget that thousands of Vietnamese, Hondurans (many of whom are Black and Latino), and others were displaced by Katrina as well.

I said Nagin's comments were stupid. They were. He wants the city's residents to return. I share that desire. That includes not only the many Whites who have returned, but also the city's Black residents, who together have created a culture that's one of the distinctive in the US and which has had an impact all over the globe. Maybe some people on here don't care if New Orleans never returns or is transformed into a theme park, but that would be the entire nation's and world's loss.

Also, if most of the Black people return, chances are Nagin's ass would probably be voted right out of office. Right now he's more in line with the developers than his constituents, which is why he made those outrageous comments.

[ January 17, 2006, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

From fantomas AS someone that TRIES to do business in New Orleans, they have created one of the most corrupt cultures the free world has ever known. If you are an honest individual, it is virtually impossible to do business with anything dealing with municipal government.

Ft, you are one of the best posters on here and I enjoy reading them. One question, is it right to make these comments and not be railroaded out of office?

Personally, I think him making these comments and the black community not calling him out is actually worse. It says that it's okay for blacks and whites to attack a white politician, but you refuse to hold black politicians to the same standard. This is wrong.

I'm not saying that he didn't say a stupid, outrageous thing. Didn't I say this in my initial post? Didn't I also say that when people throw in God's name they think they can get away with anything? That doesn't make it okay, but it contexualizes it, as does saying that he's playing to a particular constituency. That's not EXCUSING, but EXPLAINING. There is a difference. You can't drive anyone from elected office; as far as I can recall, none of the most outrageous racists who served in Congress were ever driven from office, and it took years to get Joseph McCarthy out. You can only criticize people who make hateful statements and make sure that people don't forget. As for Nagin, I think he really may rue the day that the majority of Black New Orleansians return, because I don't think they'll EVER forget the horrors they experienced or his own contributions to that terrible experience.

Also, many Whites do NOT attack White politicians who make racist comments. Maybe in your world, but in the one I live in, many can get away with saying anything. Look at Tom Tancredo, from Colorado, who has made outrageous statements about Latinos and Mexican immigrants in particular. He's got so much cred now he's even talking about entering the GOP primaries in 2008. Or look at Rudy Giuliani, who is just beloved by Republicans, but whom many Black and Black Latino New Yorkers consider to be grossly racist. He said whatever he felt like, had a racist pedophile in his employ (Harding), and was quite popular with White people. And we're talking in *liberal* New York City. Alabama keeps electing Jefferson Sessions, who has a history on racial issues. David Vitter of Louisiana is alleged to have ties to David Duke, one of the most extreme racists in the US--did the White people of Louisiana get up in arms? No, they sent Vitter to the US Senate. Did White North Carolinians criticize Jesse Helms after his repeated racist comments and actions? Wasn't he sent back to the Senate again and again? Think about Thurmond, etc.

Second, New Orleans was corrupt well before ANY Black politician led the city. I'm not sure how old you are, but I can recall when New Orleans elected its first Black mayor. There was corruption WELL before mayors like Barthelemy and Morial (the first one), and believe me, it wasn't the Black folks who were in charge. HUEY LONG, etc. LOUISIANA has been known for its corruption (up there with New York, New Jersey, Illinois, etc.) for decades. I mean, the former Democratic governor, Edwin Edwards--remember him?--who was WHITE, had as his motto, "Laissez les bons temps rouler!" And he was subsequently convicted of various crimes. He wasn't the only one. One thing that even critics of Nagin have noted is how he's actually IMPROVED the city since he took office. The prior mayor (MM), while being very sexy, was alleged to, uh, partake of illegal substances and was considered very incompetent. So blaming Nagin for the corruption just doesn't make any sense.

[ January 17, 2006, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Forgive me, but aren't we going a little overboard in our reactions to the mayor's comments? FT, I agree: playing to his constituency (just as Robertson, et.al. do.) But unlike Robertson, I'm not aware of the mayor having a history of prejudice and hatred, and certainly, he doesn't have the power that Robertson has to influence people. Were his comments stupid? Yes. Racist? No! As was noted before, he never said that he wanted to bar white people from coming back. Rather, it seems to me that he was merely articulating his pride (albeit in a dumb way) in the fact that NO was a black-majority city (it was, wasn't it?) and there aren't many of those in the nation (Yes, I know that there are some.) Is there a double standard when it comes to saying things like this? Well, yes, but it's not only unavoidable, but as FT intimated (boy, I don't usually agree so much with him - my liberal-minded partner will be so happy!) it's justifiable when one takes into account our nation's history. It's similar to my students using certain terminology when referring to themselves amd their friends that I, as a white man, can not. Do I want them to stop using these repugnant (my view, not their's) names? Of course, but it's not racist or unfair that they use the term and I can't. Let's all take a breath and relax.

It must be a burden to be right all the time.

If a white mayor got up and said his city was going to be vanilla again, there is no way you would have interperted that to mean anything other than a racial slur. None! And rightfully so. In fact, as your many posts around here have shown, you would be leading the charge agains inequity.

Further, did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, we as man can get beat by Mother Nature. We can not protect against ever horror she provides. We try to be as best prepared as possible, but sometimes we get beat, with major negative consequences. Are there things we can do to be better prepared...of course, as there always is, in any crisis situaiton in hind-sight.

I've said it before, but it's worth being repeated before my words are twisted...I don't like Bush, I never have. I believe he will find a place in history as one of our worst presidents, but to blame him or the federal government, or the local governments for Katrina is wrong.

I guess it's better to always be right than to examine an issue objectively. For someone who is always complaining about others' hypocricy, or their failure to adopt children, or their willingness to hide behind a robe, it is astounding that you don't see they hypocricy in your statement above, against what you have claimed repeatedly in differnt threads on this site.

Like I said above, it must be a burden to be right all the time.

P.S. I know I'm a bad speller, sorry.

I think that we should just chalk this statement up to a series of stupidity from a man who has been in probably one of the worst leadership positions and situations in our nations history.

Although we should not forget or forgive the ignorant statement that he made, I think we should simply put him on a sort of "watch list" and if it continues, support those who are running against him in his next election.

This goes for all political candidates. They have to answer to us whenever elections are coming around...

FT, I didn't say blacks created the culture of corruption. You just said that they created a culture beneficial to the world and I pointed out it was corrupt indicating that a culture of the same before the hurricane was not an asset to the city.

Saying one's comments are stupid isn't necessarily saying that you denounce them. Do you think it was right of him to make those comments and intellectual people not to call him out on them. I don't need diatribes excusing them. I want an up or down vote.

To me the racial nature of Nagin's comments pales in comparison (no pun intended) to his idiotic "God sent the hurricanes because..." nonsense. Hurricanes are a natural phenomenon that are caused neither by gay people gathering nor by black people falling into poverty.

Oh, and as far as I know, DC is still "Chocolate City." There may be more of us pale folks here, but the city is still majority-black (and we STILL have a cocaine-using Marion Barry in a position of leadership!). Nagin can just find another analogy for the Big Easy.

As for the rebuilding of New Orleans - the city was not founded simply to put a lot of people in harm's way by building below sea level. The city was founded because it offers access to an important port, and for that reason alone must be rebuilt. Rebuilt differently, more strongly and more sensibly, but rebuilt nonetheless.

Huh?

In your response to me saying that New Orleans was a corrupt culture, you went in to how it has always been corrupt and said the whites did it before the blacks were in power. Never did I indicate that the blacks were the cause for the corrupt culture.

You said that the New Orleans pre-Katrina was globally benefically. I simply said it wasn't beneficial to anyone and let's hope that same culture isn't recreated.

OK.

There's two different meanings of "culture" here. Do you agree that the artistic and expressive cultures of the city, which all have a strong Black imprint--from its classical music*, jazz, r&b, zydeco, blues, hiphop, dance forms, visual arts, folk art, and literature--should be kept alive? I think the rest of the world would like for those aspects of New Orleans culture to return. I sure in the hell would, and I know I'm not alone.

In terms of the corrupt business and political culture, well obviously no, I do not want that to continue. But as I said, that didn't begin with Black politicians and won't end with them. (Including William Jefferson who, if it's proved that he was taking bribes, should resign and be convicted.) LOUISIANA--not just New Orleans--is distinguished in part by a history of political corruption.

As CPT also noted, it's one of the most important ports in the United States, so for that reason alone, it must be rebuilt. With top-flight levees. This is America, we don't have to settle for shoddy anything.

--
*Some of the earliest classical music in this country developed in New Orleans. Louis Moreau Gottschalk (1829-1869) was a pioneer in fusing European and African musical traditions; the Lamberts, Charles Lucien (1828/9-1896) and his son Lucien Léon (1858-?) were among the first musicians of African-African American to perform any music outside the US.

[ January 17, 2006, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

It just goes back to what I was originally saying. If he were white, you would have cruicified him. He's black and you're giving him a pass. I won't accept the double standard form you. You either think his statements were racist or else you hold whites to a different standard than blacks based on past abuses. Please remember however, poor whites, Italians, Poles, and every other eastern European were also victims of this discrimination.

Aubster dont worry....

From what i hear, Fantom's hero Hillary is going to come down and turn the place into a plantation of chocolate.... She'll get dem in their place!

She is there Milk and from Ark, should know what she's doing.

I'm not sure who you think you are, but this idea of accepting or not accepting something is ridiculous. If you cannot grasp the contextual issues, that's your problem, not mine. Not everything is Black or White (pun intended).

Second, you cannot compare the experiences of poor Whites to Black people, no matter what their class position, in this country. Whites were never enslaved. Whites, including poor White immigrants were given land and jobs that were taken away from Black people. Are you unaware of "sundown" towns, " which exist all across the South, Midwest and West coast, in which Blacks were driven OUT of their native towns? Whites were never subjected to racial segregation. Comparatively few Whites were lynched. Whites, even White ethnics (with the exception of Jews) were not barred from attending state universities that their tax dollars funded. And it goes on and on. Black people began arriving on these shores as early as 1619 and were in the Caribbean, South and Central America even before that. Italians didn't start arriving in large numbers until the late 1800s, and the same is true of almost every other Eastern European group, except the Poles, some of whom fought alongside American forces during the Revolutionary War and WERE NOT discriminated against. So your comparison is wrong and incommensurate, and you should get your history straight before you start making demands of me. When Black people--or any non-White people--have the same power that Whites do, then we can assume they're speaking from equal positions. As of today, 2006, they're not.

[ January 18, 2006, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Hey Phuzzy, remember, Newtie and all the other Rethugs were talking about "plantations" and slavery too, so Hillary, from Illinois (but I know geography's a bit hard for you) was only keeping up the discourse. Yes Massuh, sieg holla!

I'm just someone that asked a simple question of you without a diatribe. Do you think his remarks were racist or not and do you hold him to a different standard than a white politician? It's a simple question.

Yes, but wouldn't equal treatment (and equal accountability) be a step in that direction? Also, just because someone is white today doesn't mean they should be held accountable for the sins of their ancestors.

No, you made a demand that I accept your view of things. I guess the irony of your being White and demanding a response from me is lost on you. I didn't respond with a "diatribe," but since you refuse to see it as anything else, so be it. (As for lack of responses, were my comments on "culture" lost on you, or was that also a "diatribe" in your view?)

I said Nagin's comments were stupid and outrageous. The truth is that New Orleans was a majority Black city. Most of its Black population was dispersed by Katrina's aftermath. Some high profile Whites, including a US Congressman, were happy about this. Nagin wants the Black people to come back. Many people do. He never said he didn't want Whites there. They are there, there in his administration, and he's currently planning to rebuild the city under their guidance. So obviously he's not a racist. You cannot see this larger picture, so what more can I say?

[ January 18, 2006, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

If one is benefitting from the "sins" of one's "ancestors" (through things like White skin privilege, White supremacy, etc.) and not working to change things, and if one upholds the ideology that one is superior to other people as opposed to challenging it, then that's a problem. Isn't it?

It's not like I'm ignoring what has happened, but if we don't bury the hatchet how is this ever going to get better? Honestly, I really don't give a damn what someone's skin color is, they're getting the same treatment from me everyone else is. I'm not going to treat someone of a different race on a different level (higher or lower) because of their past. I'm treating them as a person.

here's what Nagin actually said:

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/ind...transcript.html

I find it interesting that he says "before I get into too much more trouble." That tells me that he knew he had crossed the line of what was acceptable. (and I'm implying about the racial issue and not that he's speaking for God apparently)

What if something like this had been said instead:

We ask heterosexuals: it's time. It's time for us to come together. It's time for us to rebuild a New Orleans, the one that should be a straight New Orleans. And I don't care what people are saying in Chelsea or the Castro. This city will be straight at the end of the day.
This city will be a majority heterosexual city. It's the way God wants it to be. You can't have New Orleans no other way.....

By the way, Nagin's apology

See? Explained it's a totally reasonable statement. Good for you Nagin, I apparently underestimated you.

Illinois, that's why she's such a skanky politician. I get it now.

Which Ward did she want to stick the plantation in?

Nagin is ok for saying chocolate

Poor white hillary is just defending sumthin...

Aubster its just NOT ok for republicans, even the blacks republicans to say this stuff.

It's obviously OK for any dem to shout off this stuff... white or black. That exception can ALWAYS be made.

Never confuse this.

From Fantomas I did no such thing. I simple said that I wouldn't accept your double standard. Is that a demand you accept my view of things? No, it isn't. It's simply my point of view telling you that I won't subscribe to YOUR point of view because I find it flawed.

Please don't put words in my mouth because I am always more than willing to answer questions forthright and headon without avoiding them.

[ January 18, 2006, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]

Is this the part of the movie where some unseen force swings through and posts begin to vanish?

Aubster,

I'm still waiting for the answer of your question. Do you think it was a yes or no. Not a rant of excuses. Yes or No.

Dont hold your breath.

Oooh....kinda like in the Blair Witch Project when that guy (Mikey?) disappears and they all think the witch took him and then they hear his voice off in the distance and they stumble into the house and run around and finally get whacked themselves? I liked that movie.

Back on topic: did anybody watch Anderson Cooper 360 last night? His first hour focused mainly on Nagin and Clinton.

And don't blink, either! The thread might vanish.

That doesn't happen in the P & R section, but if you're all not careful, I'll be forced to come in and spank the whole lot of ya!

in your white, chocolate, or black robe?

Only good guys wear white, PF. wink

I think I'll begin referring to Nagin as Mayor Chocolate. Although, he has such poor decision making abilities when giving speeches that I'm inclined to think he might be a better fit for "Mayor McCheese."

Mayor McChocolate.

[ January 18, 2006, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Herr Tiggee ]

Scarlet, let's be fair to the man, give him credit where credit is due.

Mayor McChocolateFloatingBus

I know I'm out of town, but I do know it's not Friday boys

Mayor McFudge

Which is probably why I'm always in robes of flowing white as pure as the driven snow.

So you're a Druid?