The Bush administration has blocked compensation for US soldiers captured and tortured during the first Gulf war, arguing that the money was now needed for Iraq's reconstruction, veterans' lawyers said yesterday.
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Full Version: US blocks payout to Gulf war veterans
Happy Veterans Day.... :confused:
Not THIS Navy vet's idea of a Happy Veteran's Day! :mad:
Whatever happened to reparations FROM defeated countries instead of TO them? Victimology trumps victory, I guess. frown
Whatever happened to reparations FROM defeated countries instead of TO them? Victimology trumps victory, I guess. frown
Big article by Howard Dean on this subject on his website. He believes this is a disgrace, as do I. :mad:
QUOTE
puckman1:
Big article by Howard Dean on this subject on his website. He believes this is a disgrace, as do I. :mad:
Well unless they fly that southern flag in their pick-ups.Big article by Howard Dean on this subject on his website. He believes this is a disgrace, as do I. :mad:
You guys crack me up. First of all, if the US uses this 1 billion dollars to rebuild iraq, that's less of your tax money. Isnt that what you are screaming for all along here? Doesnt that reduce the deficit? You know the drum you have been beating.
However, now they are taking money away from the captured soldiers. So you see some ploy to show the govt as uncaring. Mainly W.
In all honesty, how many soldiers were captured during that war? a billion dollars in a lawsuit? Dont you think that is a bit out of hand?
There has to be a reasonable expectation here as a soldier. If you are captured, it's not going to be pleasant. Did they give the captured soldiers billions of dollars after ww2? vietnam?
The govt's stuck on this. Bad precedent to let them collect, no? I mean, x years from now, if one of the detained at Guantanamo Bay (esp the Brits and the Aussies) gets out and can successfully plead that they should never have been captured, we'd have a hard time denying them punitive damages of the billion plus these POWs were awarded. Besides, it made sense when it was Saddam's money. It doesn't now. It would be really hard for the govt to explain to the Iraqis how, on the one hand, we've allocated 87b for reconstruction, and, on the other, their govt coffers owe us for bad things he did to our POWs. The award was excessive but it made sense if it could come from him. He's gone, new angle, suffer the POWs. The defeated country, after all, was Saddam's administration. The people of Iraq didn't start the war, nor did they mistreat the POWs. His goons did. Of course, it hard to get that across to the POWs without looking like a jerk.
[ November 11, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: TomFord ]
[ November 11, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: TomFord ]
PF, I guess it comes under the heading of priorities, of which GW's are skewed. WE have $87 billion for Iraq, but screw the Vets. Now thats Republican patriotism for you!
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
You guys crack me up. First of all, if the US uses this 1 billion dollars to rebuild iraq, that's less of your tax money. Isnt that what you are screaming for all along here? Doesnt that reduce the deficit? You know the drum you have been beating.
However, now they are taking money away from the captured soldiers. So you see some ploy to show the govt as uncaring. Mainly W.
In all honesty, how many soldiers were captured during that war? a billion dollars in a lawsuit? Dont you think that is a bit out of hand?
There has to be a reasonable expectation here as a soldier. If you are captured, it's not going to be pleasant. Did they give the captured soldiers billions of dollars after ww2? vietnam?
FillyPhan, you really just like to take the other side of arguments and stir up the pot, don't you? I have suspected this for quite a while, not I know it is very true. I question your sanity.
QUOTE
puckman1:
Big article by Howard Dean on this subject on his website. He believes this is a disgrace, as do I. :mad:
Well unless they fly that southern flag in their pick-ups.Big article by Howard Dean on this subject on his website. He believes this is a disgrace, as do I. :mad:
You guys crack me up. First of all, if the US uses this 1 billion dollars to rebuild iraq, that's less of your tax money. Isnt that what you are screaming for all along here? Doesnt that reduce the deficit? You know the drum you have been beating.
However, now they are taking money away from the captured soldiers. So you see some ploy to show the govt as uncaring. Mainly W.
In all honesty, how many soldiers were captured during that war? a billion dollars in a lawsuit? Dont you think that is a bit out of hand?
There has to be a reasonable expectation here as a soldier. If you are captured, it's not going to be pleasant. Did they give the captured soldiers billions of dollars after ww2? vietnam?
There is a breed of people out there who can never concede that there is a flaw to their cause. I am like this with sports. The Atlanta Braves can do no wrong. Every year they end up exactly where the want to be. They chose to let the Cubs get ahead this year for the benefit of an age-old team who deserved one last chance at the spotlight ... this is very clear. All those losses to the Yankees in the 90s? A clever PR campaign to get the world to resent NY's unending success. Every trade, every play, every pitch is 100% perfect. This is blind loyalty, and you will never see me concede any point.
When discussing politics, however, I leave the play pen, and I try to think rationally. PhillyFan is so loyal to the Republican molded view of the Bush administration that he reacts to every criticism (valid or not) that gets mentioned even in the general vicinity of the government. He really is of the impression that the current leaders never have and never will do anything wrong. So, we say "veterans are losing precious benefits" and he plays the hypocrisy card without ANY context. Sometimes his rhetoric is so off the wall I doubt he even takes himself seriously.
The truth is, politicians are all slimy and self-serving. Occasionally, with enough pressure from the people, they are forced to do an altruistic thing. That is much more the exception than the rule. And though the rabid right may call you un-American, it is really OK to criticize, if only for a moment, one or two bad policy initiatives taken by the leader you support. It won't indicate to anybody with a brain that your loyalty is wavering ... it might even get them to believe that your mind is actually in support of everything else you say.
[ November 12, 2003, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: araanib ]
When discussing politics, however, I leave the play pen, and I try to think rationally. PhillyFan is so loyal to the Republican molded view of the Bush administration that he reacts to every criticism (valid or not) that gets mentioned even in the general vicinity of the government. He really is of the impression that the current leaders never have and never will do anything wrong. So, we say "veterans are losing precious benefits" and he plays the hypocrisy card without ANY context. Sometimes his rhetoric is so off the wall I doubt he even takes himself seriously.
The truth is, politicians are all slimy and self-serving. Occasionally, with enough pressure from the people, they are forced to do an altruistic thing. That is much more the exception than the rule. And though the rabid right may call you un-American, it is really OK to criticize, if only for a moment, one or two bad policy initiatives taken by the leader you support. It won't indicate to anybody with a brain that your loyalty is wavering ... it might even get them to believe that your mind is actually in support of everything else you say.
[ November 12, 2003, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: araanib ]
QUOTE
araanib:
There is a breed of people out there who can never concede that there is a flaw to their cause. I am like this with sports. The Atlanta Braves can do no wrong.
I agree about the Braves. I also have a HUGE (tee-hee-hee) affinity for Chipper Jones. There is a breed of people out there who can never concede that there is a flaw to their cause. I am like this with sports. The Atlanta Braves can do no wrong.
I really appreciate your comments, araanib
Others, myself included, have said the same thing. Over and over and over again.
Others, myself included, have said the same thing. Over and over and over again.
Yeah, I guessed I wasn't saying anything too original.
Dude, no...I really meant it as a Thanks!
I've been run off threads, told I was being "too sensitive" or some shit, because I resent being called an idiot for being critical of how blindly partisan our conversations here seem to be. So, hey, I think we need to keep reminding ourselves of exactly what you said again and again and again (x1000, then repeat)
I've been run off threads, told I was being "too sensitive" or some shit, because I resent being called an idiot for being critical of how blindly partisan our conversations here seem to be. So, hey, I think we need to keep reminding ourselves of exactly what you said again and again and again (x1000, then repeat)
I hate to break up this "love fest" but come on, let use a little common sense.
This little story basically allows you to say that W hates vets blah blah blah... Ok so these guy got caught and were held. Sued and got a billion big bucks from Sadaam. So what about all the guys who got shot during the war? How about the ones who got killed in the first gulf war? where is there billion smackers at?
All the Vets just described deserve the same treatment, with the ones giving their life deserving even more.
This is a dangerous precedent as mr ford points out... Are we to take a billion dallars from kosovo for that fighter pilot who was shot down and went through all of that trauma?
What about Grenada, where is their money? The war in afganistan? hell where is our billion dollars from frenchies for them bing spineless punks? Can we just take that from the skanky dixi chics?
When you look at the ENTIRE situation here and not just use your blind hatred for W, you see the big picture of how stupid this lawsuit was and still is.
Bush 1, Billy bob, and Ray-gun never would have paid this money out had they liberated Iraq, you know it and i know it.
Now back to your love fest.
[ November 12, 2003, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]
This little story basically allows you to say that W hates vets blah blah blah... Ok so these guy got caught and were held. Sued and got a billion big bucks from Sadaam. So what about all the guys who got shot during the war? How about the ones who got killed in the first gulf war? where is there billion smackers at?
All the Vets just described deserve the same treatment, with the ones giving their life deserving even more.
This is a dangerous precedent as mr ford points out... Are we to take a billion dallars from kosovo for that fighter pilot who was shot down and went through all of that trauma?
What about Grenada, where is their money? The war in afganistan? hell where is our billion dollars from frenchies for them bing spineless punks? Can we just take that from the skanky dixi chics?
When you look at the ENTIRE situation here and not just use your blind hatred for W, you see the big picture of how stupid this lawsuit was and still is.
Bush 1, Billy bob, and Ray-gun never would have paid this money out had they liberated Iraq, you know it and i know it.
Now back to your love fest.
[ November 12, 2003, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
I hate to break up this \"love fest\" but come on, let use a little common sense.
This little story basically allows you to say that W hates vets blah blah blah... Ok so these guy got caught and were held. Sued and got a billion big bucks from Sadaam. So what about all the guys who got shot during the war? How about the ones who got killed in the first gulf war? where is there billion smackers at?
When you look at the ENTIRE situation here and not just use your blind hatred for W, you see the big picture of how stupid this lawsuit was and still is.
Now back to you rlove fest.
FillyPhan, something you fail to realize...rebuilding Iraq is something Bush can show the world...giving a vet the reward he or she is due is not something he can show the world. BTW, thanks for trivializing the pain and suffering our troops have gone thru by pretty much calling them a bunch of crybabies looking for a handout. What a patriot you are. Also, in case anyone hasn't done it in a while, thanks for keeping al Qaeda out of Arizona by manning your post at the keyboard. BTW, how do you rationalize the fact that troops in harms way have gotten a line-of-fire pay cut from about $400 a month to about $200 a month? azairforce told me about this before he left last month. That's pretty damn shitty. Maybe if they all wore endorsements for Haliburton on their unis, they could recoup some of their lost money.I hate to break up this \"love fest\" but come on, let use a little common sense.
This little story basically allows you to say that W hates vets blah blah blah... Ok so these guy got caught and were held. Sued and got a billion big bucks from Sadaam. So what about all the guys who got shot during the war? How about the ones who got killed in the first gulf war? where is there billion smackers at?
When you look at the ENTIRE situation here and not just use your blind hatred for W, you see the big picture of how stupid this lawsuit was and still is.
Now back to you rlove fest.
[ November 12, 2003, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: bobby78751 ]
Well if this a GOOD lawsuit and money is being taken from their pockets, please tell me why ONLY these captured vets deserve this cool billion? The arguement is NOT that Vets deserve this or that... the arguement is a specific group who got captured sued and got this huge sum of money, so why do they deserve it more than any other person who was in the gulf war, or any other war for that matter?
This article and this lawsuit have absolutely nothing to do with airforce dude what so ever.
This article and this lawsuit have absolutely nothing to do with airforce dude what so ever.
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
This article and this lawsuit have absolutely nothing to do with airforce dude what so ever.
God forbid anyone bring a second issue into a discussion, FillyPhan...we all know you've NEVER done that. My point in mentioning the cut in hazard pay was that this regime is disrespecting soldiers left and right because soldier respect is not something they can show...like playing jet pilot and landing on a ship. 356 days until our regime change!
This article and this lawsuit have absolutely nothing to do with airforce dude what so ever.
What does a crazy billion dollar lawsuit have to do with hazard pay? Military benefits? The price of tea in china? You are trying to lump 2 things together that are mutually exclusive.
Please give me ONE, just one reason these few folks deserve the billion dollars... Just one reason... all i'm asking. What makes them different than anyone else who is in the military?
It's not like these guys are putting this money into a fund where every vet shares the money, or are they?
[ November 12, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]
Please give me ONE, just one reason these few folks deserve the billion dollars... Just one reason... all i'm asking. What makes them different than anyone else who is in the military?
It's not like these guys are putting this money into a fund where every vet shares the money, or are they?
[ November 12, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]
QUOTE
bobby78751:
Also, in case anyone hasn't done it in a while, thanks for keeping al Qaeda out of Arizona by manning your post at the keyboard.
Beautiful.
Also, in case anyone hasn't done it in a while, thanks for keeping al Qaeda out of Arizona by manning your post at the keyboard.
raze, even you know this a joke and can't defend this lawsuit...
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
Please give me ONE, just one reason these few folks deserve the billion dollars... Just one reason... all i'm asking. What makes them different than anyone else who is in the military?
They were AWARDED this money. It has to do with respect. The billion dollars is going into Haliburton's pocket -- does that sound better to you, Filly? I guess, being a "true American patriot", that doesn't bother you at all.
Please give me ONE, just one reason these few folks deserve the billion dollars... Just one reason... all i'm asking. What makes them different than anyone else who is in the military?
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
raze, even you know this a joke and can't defend this lawsuit...
Yeah, this is very frivilous compared to FAUX "News" suing Al Fraken over the words fair and balanced.
raze, even you know this a joke and can't defend this lawsuit...
That explains the rain last night and today, raze just came the closest ever to defending my position...
consider yourself merely a commmie and not a commie-pinko for the next hour.
consider yourself merely a commmie and not a commie-pinko for the next hour.
The White House press briefing exchange. Scroll down.
QUOTE
Q Scott, there are 17 former POWs from the first Gulf War who were tortured and filed suit against the regime of Saddam Hussein. And a judge has ordered that they are entitled to substantial financial damages. What is the administration's position on that? Is it the view of this White House that that money would be better spent rebuilding Iraq rather than going to these former POWs?
MR. McCLELLAN: I don't know that I view it in those terms, David. I think that the United States -- first of all, the United States condemns in the strongest terms the brutal torture to which these Americans were subjected. They bravely and heroically served our nation and made sacrifices during the Gulf War in 1991, and there is simply no amount of money that can truly compensate these brave men and women for the suffering that they went through at the hands of Saddam Hussein's brutal regime. That's what our view is.
Q But, so -- but isn't it true that this White House --
Q They think they're is an --
Q Excuse me, Helen -- that this White House is standing in the way of them getting those awards, those financial awards, because it views it that money better spent on rebuilding Iraq?
MR. McCLELLAN: Again, there's simply no amount of money that can truly compensate these brave men and women for the suffering --
Q Why won't you spell out what your position is?
MR. McCLELLAN: I'm coming to your question. Believe me, I am. Let me finish. Let me start over again, though. No amount of money can truly compensate these brave men and women for the suffering that they went through at the hands of a very brutal regime, at the hands of Saddam Hussein. It was determined earlier this year by Congress and the administration that those assets were no longer assets of Iraq, but they were resources required for the urgent national security needs of rebuilding Iraq. But again, there is simply no amount of compensation that could ever truly compensate these brave men and women.
Q Just one more. Why would you stand in the way of at least letting them get some of that money?
MR. McCLELLAN: I disagree with the way you characterize it.
Q But if the law that Congress passed entitles them to access frozen assets of the former regime, then why isn't that money, per a judge's order, available to these victims?
MR. McCLELLAN: That's why I pointed out that that was an issue that was addressed earlier this year. But make no mistake about it, we condemn in the strongest possible terms the torture that these brave individuals went through --
Q -- you don't think they should get money?
MR. McCLELLAN: -- at the hands of Saddam Hussein. There is simply no amount of money that can truly compensate those men and women who heroically served --
Q That's not the issue --
MR. McCLELLAN: -- who heroically served our nation.
Q Are you opposed to them getting some of the money?
MR. McCLELLAN: And, again, I just said that that had been addressed earlier this year.
Q No, but it hasn't been addressed. They're entitled to the money under the law. The question is, is this administration blocking their effort to access some of that money, and why?
MR. McCLELLAN: I don't view it that way at all. I view it the way that I stated it, that this issue was --
Q But you are opposed to them getting the money.
MR. McCLELLAN: This issue was addressed earlier this year, and we believe that there's simply no amount of money that could truly compensate these brave men and women for what they went through and for the suffering that they went through at the hands of Saddam Hussein --
Q So no money.
MR. McCLELLAN: -- and that's my answer.
MR. McCLELLAN: I don't know that I view it in those terms, David. I think that the United States -- first of all, the United States condemns in the strongest terms the brutal torture to which these Americans were subjected. They bravely and heroically served our nation and made sacrifices during the Gulf War in 1991, and there is simply no amount of money that can truly compensate these brave men and women for the suffering that they went through at the hands of Saddam Hussein's brutal regime. That's what our view is.
Q But, so -- but isn't it true that this White House --
Q They think they're is an --
Q Excuse me, Helen -- that this White House is standing in the way of them getting those awards, those financial awards, because it views it that money better spent on rebuilding Iraq?
MR. McCLELLAN: Again, there's simply no amount of money that can truly compensate these brave men and women for the suffering --
Q Why won't you spell out what your position is?
MR. McCLELLAN: I'm coming to your question. Believe me, I am. Let me finish. Let me start over again, though. No amount of money can truly compensate these brave men and women for the suffering that they went through at the hands of a very brutal regime, at the hands of Saddam Hussein. It was determined earlier this year by Congress and the administration that those assets were no longer assets of Iraq, but they were resources required for the urgent national security needs of rebuilding Iraq. But again, there is simply no amount of compensation that could ever truly compensate these brave men and women.
Q Just one more. Why would you stand in the way of at least letting them get some of that money?
MR. McCLELLAN: I disagree with the way you characterize it.
Q But if the law that Congress passed entitles them to access frozen assets of the former regime, then why isn't that money, per a judge's order, available to these victims?
MR. McCLELLAN: That's why I pointed out that that was an issue that was addressed earlier this year. But make no mistake about it, we condemn in the strongest possible terms the torture that these brave individuals went through --
Q -- you don't think they should get money?
MR. McCLELLAN: -- at the hands of Saddam Hussein. There is simply no amount of money that can truly compensate those men and women who heroically served --
Q That's not the issue --
MR. McCLELLAN: -- who heroically served our nation.
Q Are you opposed to them getting some of the money?
MR. McCLELLAN: And, again, I just said that that had been addressed earlier this year.
Q No, but it hasn't been addressed. They're entitled to the money under the law. The question is, is this administration blocking their effort to access some of that money, and why?
MR. McCLELLAN: I don't view it that way at all. I view it the way that I stated it, that this issue was --
Q But you are opposed to them getting the money.
MR. McCLELLAN: This issue was addressed earlier this year, and we believe that there's simply no amount of money that could truly compensate these brave men and women for what they went through and for the suffering that they went through at the hands of Saddam Hussein --
Q So no money.
MR. McCLELLAN: -- and that's my answer.
17 divided by 1 billion dollars, that oh... a little more than 50 million EACH! Thats better than the lottery!
Insert any of your common sense here....
if you can get past your blind hate for just a second and see just how stupid this truely is, or how dumb any of you are for thinking they deserve this money...
Insert any of your common sense here....
if you can get past your blind hate for just a second and see just how stupid this truely is, or how dumb any of you are for thinking they deserve this money...
On a side note, did anyone else see the NBC News piece last night on the GAO report concerning National Guard pay problems? It appears that in some units (they focused on Colorado) there were so many problems, with underpayments, overpayments, delayed payments and general accounting mistakes (e.g., claiming a group of soldiers each owned the government $48,000 and garnishing their wages, while they are in combat!
The military's response - they acknowledge the problems and the accuracy of the report, and are taking steps to fix it - how about a little shame folks?
And exactly how comfortable are we supposed to be with the military getting $4 billion a month for the war in Iraq - how many accounting screw ups are there?
The military's response - they acknowledge the problems and the accuracy of the report, and are taking steps to fix it - how about a little shame folks?
And exactly how comfortable are we supposed to be with the military getting $4 billion a month for the war in Iraq - how many accounting screw ups are there?
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