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DallasUNC
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NathanJones:
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DallasUNC:
Remember eye for an eye. If you kill somebody intentionally, you should join them.
Well, I'm not basing my beliefs on any sort of biblical teachings...I'm basing mine on common sense, common good, character and values all people should live by....

That's where I get irritated with anti-abortionist and death penalty advocates....it ain't about what the damn bible says.... (at least not to me wink )

But yes...I am human, therefore I am a hypocrite...before anyone decides to jump in and point that out.

NJ
Actually eye for an eye is not biblical. It comes from the times of Babylon in the Codes of Hammurabi. But you were close by several thousand years.
DallasUNC
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thersis:
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DallasUNC:
Remember eye for an eye. If you kill somebody intentionally, you should join them.
that is an old testament (exodus) biblical quote, so if you are a christian of any stripe, this is a very misguided invocation of the bible to justify the death penalty.

jesus refered to this idea in the sermon on the mount and urged his followers to reject this principle and instead to turn the other cheek.

even talmudic law largely rejects the eye-for-eye principle in the case of physical harm, albeit largely for logistical reasons, and with some narrowly carved out exceptions.

it's time this old barbaric chestnut and justification for so much exacting of revenge be laid to rest.
See reply to Nathan and I am no Christian. I dont believe in smoke and mirrors.

I also ask to those who dont support the death penalty- what alternative do you offer? Life in prison? Labotomy? Chopping their hands off so they cant hold a gun again?

[ December 16, 2005, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: DallasUNC ]
Nat
>>I also ask to those who dont support the death penalty- what alternative do you offer? Life in prison? Labotomy? Chopping their hands off so they cant hold a gun again?

Life in prison. It's really quite simple. Safer if a mistake was made, cheaper...

Your other "alternatives" are typical reactionary reationary rhetoric. Does ANYONE support cutting hands off? Hyperbole like this does not help mature discussion of the topic, and is one reason the discussion usually generates more heat than light.
thersis
dallas, i refer you to exodus 21:22-25, leviticus 24:17-21, deuteronomy 19:16-21, and matthew 5:38-39. all these passages refer to the eye for an eye principal. other references may predate these, but to say the eye for an eye idea, as greatly misunderstood as it is -- it was meant to LIMIT punishment, biblically speaking -- is not biblical is truly a stretch.

and when jerry springer guests start spouting their i4i claptrap, they seldom, okay, never preface it with, "the codes of hammurabi say...". i assure it is the bible they are citing.

now to your question regarding alternatives...it all depends on what one's view of the purpose of our criminal justice system is. whenever i get mixed up in a death penalty debate, i contend we should be debating the purpose of the justice system. is its main purpose to punish, reduce recidivism, avenge, rehabilitate? when one settles in their own mind the answer to this question, they tend to develop a more cogent stand on the merits, or lack thereof, of the death penalty. and most people, not being vengeful to the point of murder, realize that the only purpose served by capital punishment that could not be served by other means, namely life without parole, is, in fact, vengeance. and few people would cite that as the main purpose of our justice system.
smalltownboy
Personally, I can't think of any worst punishment then to be kept in jail the rest of my life with no possibility (other then jailbreak) of getting out.....ever.

NJ
DallasUNC
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thersis:
dallas, i refer you to exodus 21:22-25, leviticus 24:17-21, deuteronomy 19:16-21, and matthew 5:38-39. all these passages refer to the eye for an eye principal. other references may predate these, but to say the eye for an eye idea, as greatly misunderstood as it is -- it was meant to LIMIT punishment, biblically speaking -- is not biblical is truly a stretch.

and when jerry springer guests start spouting their i4i claptrap, they seldom, okay, never preface it with, \"the codes of hammurabi say...\". i assure it is the bible they are citing.

now to your question regarding alternatives...it all depends on what one's view of the purpose of our criminal justice system is. whenever i get mixed up in a death penalty debate, i contend we should be debating the purpose of the justice system. is its main purpose to punish, reduce recidivism, avenge, rehabilitate? when one settles in their own mind the answer to this question, they tend to develop a more cogent stand on the merits, or lack thereof, of the death penalty. and most people, not being vengeful to the point of murder, realize that the only purpose served by capital punishment that could not be served by other means, namely life without parole, is, in fact, vengeance. and few people would cite that as the main purpose of our justice system.
Its not a stretch for those of us who are , again, NOT CHRISTIAN or any other religion. Its a stretch to only say its biblical, when its principle was borrowed from a source thousands of years prior. If your view is so narrow that you can only harken back to sources written in references to a holy power, then you need to not use the argument. "Eye for an eye" as I said dates back to Hammurabi's code. And it wasnt added because some dude named Jehovah told him to add it. Its a just punishment code. Last I checked also, Jerry Springer doesnt make the laws and his show is not real.

Someone used a reference earlier to death penalties being used against sodomites in Islamic countries. That is not a valid comparison. Youre right, I would not agree that someone who performed a sex "crime" or stole a $1000 should die. But someone who takes a life intentionally, should suffer the same fate. Keeping them locked up in jail forever is not a severe enough punishment for them. Its simply a waste of money and time.

I would concede that those people sentenced to death before the late 90s should be given the chance of new DNA testing to prove their innocence during any last appeal they may have prior to execution, if the case involves DNA. It has been proven that of those 1001 people executed, that yes a handful may have been innocent men. But 99% of them were brutal and calculating murderers.

I find few people who can say Ted Bundy, who lured victims to die, only deserved life in prison. That Jefferey Dahmer, who ate his victims, would have only deserved his life sentence since Wisconsin had no death penalty (which ultimately led to death at the hands of another inmate). That Blanche Taylor Moore, who poisoned her husbands with cianide, only deserved life in prison. That John Wayne Gacy, who lured boys and men in a clown outfit to rape and murder them, only deserved life in prison.

Thats 1001 executed people in 29 years. An article I found using data from 2002-2003, said there were 127,677 people serving life sentences. And there were 3600 people on death row. The 1001 executions in 29 years sounds like a much smaller number in comparison to those numbers.
dinger
I cannot support the death penalty for anyone. It's too definite for a flawed system like our judicial system, and I know ours in America is probably the best in the world. Besides, it's just wrong to teach people it's wrong to kill by killing them. When we as a society are murderous, we show that we condone the action we're trying to punish. It's not logical.

Addressing the victims, please don't tell me I don't feel for their loss because I'm unwilling to support the murder of their aggressor. I do feel for them, but another death is not going to bring them back, and if their survivors feel the need for another death for them to feel better, they have, in my humble opinion, larger emotional issues going on. Another death does not honor the loss of their loved one.

Departing from governmental reasoning on this issue, as a Christian, I believe God will be their judge one day. And he would forgive them if they sought forgiveness.

Finally, Mom said two wrongs don't make a right.
George Twins fan
I guess all those Hollywood stars who are so oppossed to the death penalty and falling all over themselves trying to save pond scum like Tookie Williams were too busy giving out Golden Globes last night to take the time to protest the execution of the deaf, blind, wheelchair-confined 76 year old Clarence Ray Allen in California last night. Hypocrites.

A note to parents all over the country. If you don't want your kid to end up on Death Row, don't give him the middle name "Ray".
btmuscle
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dinger:
I cannot support the death penalty for anyone. It's too definite for a flawed system like our judicial system, and I know ours in America is probably the best in the world. Besides, it's just wrong to teach people it's wrong to kill by killing them. When we as a society are murderous, we show that we condone the action we're trying to punish. It's not logical.

Addressing the victims, please don't tell me I don't feel for their loss because I'm unwilling to support the murder of their aggressor. I do feel for them, but another death is not going to bring them back, and if their survivors feel the need for another death for them to feel better, they have, in my humble opinion, larger emotional issues going on. Another death does not honor the loss of their loved one.

Departing from governmental reasoning on this issue, as a Christian, I believe God will be their judge one day. And he would forgive them if they sought forgiveness.

Finally, Mom said two wrongs don't make a right.
Dinger, you miss an important difference in your choice of words... kill doesn't always equate to murder. We kill in life-saving abortions, to some we even kill when doing selective reductions in multiple fertilizations, we in kill in war, we kill in self defence, we kill when the sniper takes out the bomb thrower threatening little kids... there are a host of events where society deems killing to be appropriate.

Murder, however, is always wrong.

Try pausing for a moment and reflecting on the grief of the victims' families before pronouncing what you think "honors" the murder of their loved ones. Those families don't want their loved one back... it's condescending to reduce their grief to such a intellectually dishonest platitude.

Sometimes, killing another person is justified --as others have pointed out above.

As for the God/Christian based opinion, he gave us the power to regulate our world and while forgiveness for sins is something He/She can do in the afterlife, we get to do it here.

Last time I checked, nearly all Christian churches support the concept of a just war and are pro-Life.
btmuscle
Oh, and "forgiveness" doesn't mean issuing Get Out of Death Row Free cards to convicted murderers. Our criminal justice system bends over backwards to insure fair and equal access to the Courts for death row inmates. Appeals can take multiple courses over a lifetime of jailtime.

Like your Mom and my Mom offered: 2 wrongs don't make a right... denied justice isn't right; execution isn't wrong.
shep71
But he was blind and hard of hearing rolleyes.gif

If that's not the biggest line of BS I've ever heard.
George Twins fan
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shep71:
But he was blind and hard of hearing rolleyes.gif

If that's not the biggest line of BS I've ever heard.
I heard some say it was cruel and unusual punishment to execute a 76 year old muderer who is deaf, blind and confined to a wheelchair. I say it's more compassionate than letting him live. But that's just me. If I were 76, deaf, blind, bound to a wheelchair and locked up in prison I would welcome death with open arms.
gmginsfo
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KingChildress:
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shep71:
But he was blind and hard of hearing rolleyes.gif

If that's not the biggest line of BS I've ever heard.
I heard some say it was cruel and unusual punishment to execute a 76 year old muderer who is deaf, blind and confined to a wheelchair....
You didn't hear any court say that. I heard the criminal quip that "this is a good day to die" as he was led into the chamber. That's a sign of cold-heartedness and no remorse. Good riddance to bad rubbish - and I'm thankful for my colleagues in the AG's office who saw this case through to the condemned killer's bitter end.
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