On Friday the US will execute the 1,000th person since the death penalty was reinstated.

Only China, Iran and Vietnam have more executions than we do???

How proud to be associated with that group.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051201/ts_nm/...me_execution_dc

Thankfully Governor Ah-nold has denied clemency for Stanley "Tookie" Williams. The man who started th Crips gang that has devastated countless lives will die one minute past midnight tonight.

So now I see Jesse "Marblemouth" Jackson on TV and he just said that he was disappointed in Ah-nold's decision because Schwarzeneger had previously met with Nelson Mandela and been congratulatory towards him on his being freed. This idiot just compared Tookie Williams with Nelson Mandela!

I'm with you Mike, Tookie is one of those people who deserves the death penalty. I'm not a big fan of it overall, but there are some people that just require the use of the death penalty.

I don't support the death penalty. There was a time in the past, I did.

I was having dinner with my Dad one night and we were discussing it and he said to me..."if one person is executed who is innocent of the crime they're being put to death for, then I can't accept that".

That was the changing point. Funny how something so practical would never have entered my mind up to that point.

If I were questioned for jury duty, I would tell them I wouldn't be able to vote to put a person to death...I'd have absolutely no problem condemning them to life in prison with no possibility of parole though.

HOWEVER, the issue I have with anti-death penalty advocates is their cannonization of murderers....I think more people would be supportive and open minded about this debate if it were not for the fact that everytime the media jumps onto an "important" execution, it sickens my stomach watching people out there burning candles and waving huge posters of the killer like he is their f**king Jesus.

They make them into martyrs.....that is simply wrong. Its a spit in the face to the real victim(s) and their families...

I have little to no compassion for a killer...whether they've "changed" or not...but I don't feel its up to me or any other person to condemn another to death.

I won't/don't shed a tear for them either.

NJ

[ December 12, 2005, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: NathanJones ]

Well said, Nathan.

A reminder: the U.S. and Iran both execute people. Nice company we keep, huh? As we all know, Iran has no problem killing gays and, I, for one, oppose the death penalty. I also think opposing the death penalty is integral to the gay agenda. After all, the death penalty _is_ a human rights issue and we're all for human rights, yes?

We can't call ourselves a civilized society as long as a we have capital punishment in this country. It's a stain on our national identity. Human life is a gift that none of us mere mortals have any right to take.

I'm much more for the rights of the 4 humans the Tookster decided to brutally murder and the countless scores of others who have died because of his gang warfare enterprenurial skills.

Tell that to those who favor abortion. Bigger and more obvious hypocrites there are not.

Well, there are some of us that believe both are wrong...I've never really understood why I am supposed to pick one...

NJ

Remember eye for an eye. If you kill somebody intentionally, you should join them.

Well, I'm not basing my beliefs on any sort of biblical teachings...I'm basing mine on common sense, common good, character and values all people should live by....

That's where I get irritated with anti-abortionist and death penalty advocates....it ain't about what the damn bible says.... (at least not to me wink )

But yes...I am human, therefore I am a hypocrite...before anyone decides to jump in and point that out.

NJ

I'm in favor of the death penalty only when there's absolutely no doubt of that person's guilt, ie; deranged ppl who shoot up schools and offices, serial murderers with dead bodies in their basements, etc..

I just don't want to see an innocent person executed. I still don't understand how someone like Scott Peterson could be sentenced to death based only on circumstantial evidence. :confused:

I'm with you on that one Allen. wink I'm not saying he's innocent...but its pretty scary to think my ass could be sitting on death row without one shred of physical evidence having put me there...."Guilt by People Magazine". eek!

Meanwhile, O.J. still walks the streets free as a bird.

NJ

I never said you should. I oppose both, but I understand the logic behind supporting capital punishment and not abortion. In the former, an individual has been tried and sentenced and has received appeals ad infinitum. In the latter, there is no judge, no jury, no trial--just an innocent individual summarily executed in the name of personal convenience or otherwise nonexistent "right."

Actually, I believe he's walking America's golf courses, and not the streets, looking for the real killers (in-between pirating DirecTV).

Clemency Decision of Governor Terminator

For I was hungry and you gave me no food,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome,
naked and you gave me no clothing,
ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
Then they will answer and say,
'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty
or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison,
and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you,
what you did not do for one of these least ones,
you did not do for me.’ (Matthew 25:31-45)

Well said.

Whether the topic is Capital Punishment or Abortion, The taking of human life is Anathema.

While my heart and soul go out to the families of those slain, the execution of this man will not bring back those who were slain, ease the pain and suffering of those who mourn, or deter anyone else from future actions.

I found Gov S’s reasoning to be clear, concise, and to the point however. Without an admission of responsibility and remorse on behalf of Mr. Williams, there can be no redemption. I sympathize with him in what must have been a difficult decision. While I do not agree with him on this issue; after reading the entire release, he has risen several points in my respect.

R

that is an old testament (exodus) biblical quote, so if you are a christian of any stripe, this is a very misguided invocation of the bible to justify the death penalty.

jesus refered to this idea in the sermon on the mount and urged his followers to reject this principle and instead to turn the other cheek.

even talmudic law largely rejects the eye-for-eye principle in the case of physical harm, albeit largely for logistical reasons, and with some narrowly carved out exceptions.

it's time this old barbaric chestnut and justification for so much exacting of revenge be laid to rest.

I totally understand the hesitatativeness (is that a word?) of the death penalty is certain cases. If there is even a .00000000000001% chance some evidence was wrong or something, it is wrong to put that person to death. HOWEVAHHH, in this case, There is no doubt in the world that TookTooK started a gang, killed 4 (that we know of) and is (IMO) indirectly responsible for every death that a member of his gang committed. So the only injustice here is the way he died, by simply lying on a table. If only all his victims had such a painless death.

I hope the needle hurt going in.

[ December 13, 2005, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: Merloni26 ]

It did. I heard they had trouble finding a vein in his left arm.

I hope you remember that, my esteemed friend, the next time an unborn child is ripped apart via abortion, for such is truly the best example of a "least one"; otherwise your impactful statement is void of any meaning or credibility.

It appears that this liberal, black journalist tends to share Governor Arnold's views.

whoops, double post.

[ December 13, 2005, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Merloni26 ]

I read that as part of the article on CNN's site. It also says he bacame irritated that it was taking so long...THIS JUST PISSED ME OFF EVEN MORE! Yeah, I'm sure he didn't care when he was standing over his victims who were in pain bleeding to death and probably wishing for death to come quick. He has a god damn nerve to be "irritated" f**k HIM! He got to live with 3 tax paid meals a day for 25 extra years and work out in a gym to develop those muscles that made it so hard to find a vein.

[ December 13, 2005, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Merloni26 ]

Yep, its pictures like this that get me...



All these tears shed for what? A man who blew the head off a 17 year old boy simply doing his job....and then he sat back and ate a sandwhich while the kid bled to death on the floor.

Wow...maybe if these folks wait around long enough, like say....3 days....he'll rise from the dead and lead them to their salvation.

NJ

Maybe it's Tookie's family. Maybe it's the family/friends of Tookie's victims. I just don't know. And neither do you.

Both the death penalty and the attached crimes touch people emotionally, eliciting a myriad of responses: anger, rage, relief, satisfaction, sadness, etc... I see no problem with arguing the merits of the death penalty, whether for Tookie specifically or as part of a larger discussion of the American justice system. But to criticize someone's personal emotional response (which isn't necessarily driven by logic or reason) seems pointless.

I've already said I don't support the death penalty....but I don't understand any persons response of tears for a killer....and the caption on the photo indicated it was a group of "supporters".....

Does anyone actually believe this man would have "changed" had he not been put in prison for his crimes?

My "presonal reaction"? I don't and won't shed a tear....so don't condemn mine either.

NJ

None of us know whether or not Tookie Williams really changed or whether he was a calculating sociopath saying what he figured we wanted to hear. None of us know whether he would have changed had he not been in prison; a lot of people, after all, do change in prison (Malcolm X comes to mind). None of us know if his lawyers were correct when they claimed he did not actually do the murders; they are, after all, paid to raise reasonable doubt.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume the worst. Assume Williams was guilty, assume he was a cold-blooded sociopathic scumbag with no regard for anyone but himself.

Should we, as a society, act like its worst members?

I use the following train of thought and it can be applied for ANY subject you can think of:

If an adult of average common sense wants to do something, either alone, or with other average common sensed individuals, no matter what it is, i.e. if they want to slap each other silly, if they want to run over themselves with cars, whatever.....if they want to do it, and it involves NO CHILDREN, NO UNWILLING PEOPLE, AND BRINGIN NO HARM TO ANYONE BUT THE WILLING PARTICIPANTS, then there is nothing wrong with it. Others may think they're odd for doing whatever it is, but they have no authority to judge them.

However, once whatever it is involves and unwilling person or causes harm to a child, that person is wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong! And should be punished so.

No, we shouldn't. I agree with that.

But I don't think I'm gonna make me a big poster of Tookie and shake it for the cameras and demand "justice for Tookie" and throw myself on the streets in tears when I hear he's gone.

NJ

I use to think that....but a couple years ago (I think) I read about that German man who put up an add on line looking for someone willing to allow him to torture and kill them.

I don't remember the exact number...but he got hundreds of positive responses....he apparently filmed himself torturing and EATING this willing participant ALIVE until the guy died...

He was charged with murder and his argument was the man he killed was a willing participant and even had it on film....

I stopped thinking that way after I read that one.....I'll look for a link about the story and if I can find it, I'll post it for you to see.

The media jumped all over it and of course reminded everyone the men were both "homosexuals".

Strange, strange people in this world.

NJ

Found one!

Eat Me

[ December 13, 2005, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: NathanJones ]

Holy S**T! I never heard about that! I would go on the argument that the guy (the torturee and eatee) wasn't "of average common sense" and insane.

ewwwwwwwwww!

Edit: Just read the article! I'm speechless.

[ December 13, 2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Merloni26 ]

The opponents of execution were generally saying life without parole, which is hardly no punishment.

One argument against capital punishment which is rarely, if ever, raised, is its effect on those whose duty it is to inflict it.

How can anyone perform an execution, and nut be coarsened and brutalized? One might argue that no one is forced to be an executioner, but I don’t believe that mitigates to effect. I read the memoirs of a prison chaplain once, whose duty it was to attend executions. He was unable to take it very long, and spoke of the ghastly effect it had on others involved.

Perhaps a relevant question therefore, is whether the effect of executions on our society is one we can or should tolerate?

It seems to me that executions fan vindictiveness. Does that make us better?

And as long as recent events show that a significant percentage of those executed or condemned are innocent (not the care here, I grant) - can we as a society tolerate it?

Nat

Why don't they show the dead victim's pictures -like the poor guy who was forced to lie down on the floor of the convenience store where Tookie shot him in the back of the head - or the family he blew away. :mad: I know it was twenty some years ago - thats twenty some years that the murderer had that the victims didn't. Why don;t the celebrities like Wayne Rogers hold a candle light vigil for the VICTIMS. I didn't see celebrities show any sympathy for "poor Tookie's" long dead victim's.

Two gays who don't support the death penalty.

Sucking cock is a far cry from capping peeps. Blowing a dude ain't the same as blowing a dude away. I'm just sayin....

I gotta hand it to you copman, you must see so much disgust and unfairness on a daily basis in your line of work, I know I couldn't handle it.

Why is compassion seen as either or? Why are those who oppose the death penalty seen as having no compassion for the victims of murder? Is compassion some finite quantity like marriage and if gays get some there will be less for straights (well, that is close to the argument)?

The point about effect on executioner, or on chaplains and others who don't throw the switch but are involved, is excellent.

Because VISIBLY there is little to NO balance....

Most of those people out there swinging the banners with THE KILLERS photo on it are not chanting "justice!" for the victim....their cannonizing the killer.

If they say anything at all about the victim, its usually lip service with the focus clearly driven toward "prisoner rights".

Its interesting...if you go to the Texas Department of Corrections Website and read the "last statements" of the condemned....with a few exceptions..the one being executed spends his last breath talking about how "the system" is "killing" him......yet, they never utter one iota of a remourseful tone to the victim and their families....they seek "justice" but only for themselves.

As Alanis would say...."Isn't it ironic"?

Perhaps this is an urban legend here in Texas....but supposedly there is a waiting list of people (TDC employees) waiting their turn to flip the switch in Huntsville.

NJ

[ December 15, 2005, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: NathanJones ]

It is not canonizing a convicted person to say one opposes the death penalty. It is saying that we should be better than the worst among us.

In truth, the same discussion goes on elsewhere. Do we shred the bill of rights because (terrorists, communists, drug dealers, whoever is today's #1 enemy) don't respect democracy and we have to end free speech in the name of fighting those who oppose free speech? If Saddam Hussein built prisons where people were raped, tortured, disappeared, murdered, does the US have to build prisons where people are raped, tortured, disappeared and murdered in the name of getting rid of Saddam Hussein?

So, I suppose since I oppose the Patriot Act, I need to go make me a big poster with Osama Bin-Laden on it and hit the streets screaming "Justice for Osama!"?

Okay, so that's how it works?

Thanks for clearing that one up. wink

NJ

[ December 15, 2005, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: NathanJones ]

>>If they say anything at all about the victim, its usually lip service with the focus clearly driven toward "prisoner rights".

Well, it needs to be remembered that there are many injustices in our prison system, from abuse of power among some parole officers to brutality by guards, to obscenely bad medical care. In most cases, prisoners will be returned too society, and it seems only sensible to send them back prepared to contribute, not embittered and brutalized.

A society can be judged by how it treats the most vulnerable… I can’t imagine you really favor a prison system in which ‘anything goes”?


>>Perhaps this is an urban legend here in Texas....but supposedly there is a waiting list of people (TDC employees) waiting their turn to flip the switch in Huntsville.

I’m not sure that proves much more than that there are people willing to do almost anything. Is it right to allow them to indulge in vengeance, or whatever other motivation such people may have? Even if it is, I wonder what the effect might be on the person who throws the switch or inserts the needle? It simply can’t be good for their humanity or their families. (Just is prison guards have the highest divorce rate of any civil service group.)

>>So, I suppose since I oppose the Patriot Act, I need to go make me a big poster with Osama Bin-Laden on it and hit the streets screaming "Justice for Osama!"?

I’d hope that we’d all hit the streets in favor of “justice for all.” Justice is not confined to executing people (it also involves things like habeas corpus, trials, due process, and so on - all very unfashionable these days - but that’s another topic.)

The rest of the Western World seems to get along without capital punishment. It’s not a deterrent, it’s very fallible; all it seems to be is vengeance. And I’m not sure that vengeance is a good thing to base much on.

What sort of a society do we want to be? It seems to me that that is the crucial issue.

I'd hope that the United States could stand for something better, and maybe set an example of open, just and wise treatment of everyone.

Nat

You're preaching to the choir....for the one billionth time...I don't support the death penalty....

I'm simply saying anti-death penalty advocates do little to gain public support for their cause by running around in what appears to most people to be a total imbalance of support.

Y'all can use this "aren’t we a kinder, gentler people?" bullshit till the cows come home...its not gonna work with the general public in this country.

Instead of throwing themselves onto the streets in heaps when they hear "the news,” having candlelight vigils and "Tribute sites to the Killer"...they need to come up with something a bit better....their current methods do NOTHING to change public perception (which isn't on their side) and only alienate people even further....people like me . . . who don't support it in the first place....but don't like seeing killers put on pedestals...and that is exactly what is being done.

Why is that so hard to comprehend?

Do you really think the way anti-death penalty groups deal with the issue is working and garners strong community support outside of the Greenpeace - Lilith Fair Crowd?

NJ

Actually, yes, if polls are to be believed support for the death penalty has declined significantly in the past decade or so.
One of the biggest reasons is the work done by groups like Innocence Project. Aside from a few like Bush, most people are pretty horrified at the thought of an innocent person being executed and seeing how full of holes the "justice" system is has an impact. Bad as it is to be released after serving 20 years for a crime one did not commit, what about those executed? For many people, seeing that innocent people were convicted and served long prison terms makes it credible that some innocent people were executed.

No doubt...and that is my primary reason for no longer supporting it...

However....that doesn't address the issue of gaining support from the masses for not executing the MAJORITY of people sitting on death row who are absolutely, positively guilty of murder.

NJ

Nathan -

I apologize for being the billionth person to seem to need an explanation! Your posts are always interesting and thought-provoking, and my comments were not aimed at you, but at those who might hold out for the death penalty - more of a chnace to say a few things, than to argue with you in specific.

Best wishes for the holiday,

Nat

Thanks Nat....

I do like to argue.

NJ