Tommy Thompson says there is no flu vaccine crisis...just one in two of us will not be able to be vaccinated. :confused: Another example of an administration that is out of touch with reality.
CNN Story

[ October 18, 2004, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: bobby78751 ]

Why has there been a shortage for the past couple of years? What makes making this stuff so difficult that they can't churn it out as needed?

We're turning the corner on flu vaccines.

The economy is good, everyone who wants a flu vaccine is getting one, flowers are clogging the streets of Baghdad...excuse me while I re-bury my head in the sand.

I had my flu shot last week, free of charge at my worksite. No shortage of the flu vaccine in Canada, and it appears that many worried Americans are looking north for help. Apparently George Bush said something last week about purchasing extra supplies from us. I'm not opposed to the idea if it will keep Americans healthy, but it does seem rather hypocritical...after all, the Bush administration (read: profit-hungry US pharmaceutical firms) has questioned the 'safety' of medications that many Americans have been buying from Canadian pharmacies because they can't afford the high cost of the drugs in the US.

It just amazes me that we only have two companies that make the flu vaccine and they are hired out by the United States through Great Britain. Their form of the FDA is where the whistle was blown before the vaccines got to us in the US. Can you imagine the panic if we had given out "bad" vaccines instead of not enough? We could all be growing chicken heads or chicken feet with bad flu vaccine.

It was weird too that Shrub suggested during debate #3 that we get flu vaccine from Canada. What a hypocrite. We can get flu vaccine but our poor old grandma's and grandpa's can't get their medicine from Canada and will have to eat Alpo on crackers to afford it here. :mad:

TomFord, these two letters in today's NY Times pretty much sum up the problem. (BTW, were Gore the president, we might still be facing this problem, so if Kerry is elected, he at least is on notice that the current administration's--or any administration's--laissez-faire, market-based approach to public health has to change. What would we do in the event of a bio-terror attack, when massive amounts of innoculants would be needed?)

fantomas,no, what I meant to ask is if anyone knew why it takes so long to make. I've heard that it's cultured from different flu strains, but how come it takes so long? Given the demand, you'd think some enterprising outfit would step in, or the outfit that screwed up would start making more.

Up next: Chimpy McSmirksalot proposes tax cut to help Americans pay for bootleg flu vaccines.

Birds of a feather: I see Heckle, Jekyll and the Blame Bush for Everything Crowd are parrotting any line of argument, however tenuous, that will hold the President liable for unforeseeable mistakes made in a foreign laboratory. With each succeeding argument you guys fly further and further from reality.

Your dose of that tonic will be delivered no later than Tuesday, November 3, 2004.

posted by TomFord: I believe the problems lies in the multi-month preparation of the vaccine, which means any vaccine production started now would not be ready until next March, when the flu season will be over.

As an asthmatic, who has gotten walking pneumonia from the flu in the past, it is vital for me to get a vaccination, which I normally do through my company. Of course, the company's vaccination clinic was cancelled, my doctor has no access to the vaccine supply, and my health plan is not helpful. I likely will have to risk it this winter, and simply hope I don't get it.

posted by gmginsfo: Having never been part of the \"blame Bush for everything crowd\" I have to say that I certainly am not happy with the way that the administration has handled this whole flu vaccine crisis (and it is a crisis, a few years ago we had a shortage and had about 80% of what we needed - 50% is a crisis, IMHO). I don't believe they're to blame for the actual loss of the vaccine - after all, they inherited the messed-up, health-care as a commodity mentality (instead of a public good mentality) when they entered office.

However, this incident shows once again how the government MUST get involved in the manufacture and distribution of the flu vaccine. Leaving this to market forces simply does not make sense, as the flu is still a huge killer in this country, and another epidemic like the one in 1918 is a matter of when, not if. Not to mention the practice working with the flu vaccine would give the government, which would prove invaluable if, God forbid, a bioweapons agent were ever used by terrorists.

And it does not help matters to have Tommy T at HHS try to pretend there is no crisis. His statements were important in that he a) let people know that we have more vaccine coming and that the government at least claims to be working to ensure available vaccine gets where it is most needed. But to tell people not to wait in line, when they know perfectly well there is a limited supply this year, is bullsh*t.

And that is exactly what I am worried about - the loss of this nation's greatness if we allow four more years of incompetence and obfuscation. The Bush administration may not be responsible for the flu crisis, but they have certainly proven they are not capable of governing this country in a responsible manner.

I really wonder if we could recover after another 4 years like the last 4 - I have my doubts.

And now this. If "this" is true it highlights the corruption of the influence of money in the pharmaceutical industry at an entirely new level, and may explain the surging popularity of Bush in New Jersey - which could be called the pharmaceutical capital of the world, if not the planet. Their influence on the FDA is what causes problems like this to become possible IMO.

The culture is grown on fertilzed chicken eggs. The eggs in the stores are (virtually always) non-fertilized; these have to be specially produced. Then the culture has to grow. It's a biological process and biological processes can't be speeded up.
As to why someone else doesn't jump in, even if they could technically, processes are patented. So there are legal issues as well. companies hold monopolies on drugs for, generally, 10 years.
Even with limited supplies the situation has been horribly handled. An elderly woman wrote into the SF Chronicle today that she had to stand in line outside in cold and rain for 7 hours, then get her shot in the bread department of the grocery store. She wondered why high schools, businesses, etc. that have auditoriums can't donate them. At least elderly and sick people could sit indoors, be called up a row at a time.
I work in quality in the biotech/pharma industry. Reading about this, I wonder how it could happen. Someone, in fact a lot of "someones" were just plain not doing their job. All this is supposed to be tested, verified and documented up the wazoo.

Ms De Blazer, I too work in the industry and I agree about all the testing required. Out the wazzoo is right! There also should be an emergency back-up plan in case something like this happens. This is where our government had its head up its a$$, IMHO.

What about the inhalable flu mist vaccine? Is that an acceptable alternative? I read it is limited to adults under 50 years old, but I'm surprised there hasn't been more publicity about this alternative. I just got an e-mail from my health insurance company that they will be covering this in full this year.

No, the president is to blame for promoting a deregulated medical industry that decided it wasn't cost effective to produce flu vaccines while countries with socialized health care not only have enough vaccine for everyone who is in the at risk group, but anyone who wants the vaccine at all. In fact, it looks like there might even be 2.5 million doses available after the Canadians have gotten done giving all their citizens who want them free shots. Unfortunately, the American shortfall is looking like 10 million doses.

I don't know if it's like that in all provinces but the flu vaccine is not free for everybody. You have to be in a group at risk (above 60, young children, suffer from an illness on a list, etc.), so it's not free for all.

And the two companies that get the manufacturing contract probably don't produce a number that would cover all citizens.

To import in the US, the FDA would have to give a special license. These things are regulated.
"Health Canada and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration license their countries' vaccine supplies independently, so any extra medicine would require special approval before it is shipped over the border."

I have to say this is a good one for Kerry to latch on to in these last few weeks. If there is one thing the old folks are more afraid of than some imaginary terror cell living down the street from them hell bent on blowing up East-But-Fu*k America its the fear of contracting the flu. Not to mention it's a legitimate argument. The government should be looking out for us here. Damn, they dropped the ball again. Can this administration get anything right?

Having spent time in the analytical lab for several different large pharmaceutical companies, I am somehow not surprised this sort of thing could happen. I've never done the type of biological tests that would have been used for the bacterium found in the Chiron product, but I know the industry in general is very much profit-driven rather than health-driven. If profit determines which drugs are developed and most intensely monitored, this sort of thing is inevitable. Shouldn't the FDA be the real focus?

My mistake, I must have misunderstood the news story I heard. So, after Canada has finished giving the vaccine to their citizens in the risk group, they might have less than a third of doses needed to provide relief to Americans in the risk group.

Something very interesting from the debate not many caught on to. Bush did something no other American President has done, he told Americans not to get a flu shot. There wasn't enough for everyone who wants one.

Even durring WWII with rationing, there has always been the overriding theme America has always touted: "There is always enough to go around" "The land of plenty" The consistent notion that ,even when not true, America can provide for its people. I wonder how historians will see this?

As for the shortage, seems the evil state-run health care systems that are second rate to our own will be providing the needed shots to their citizens. Does that mean their system is better? Maybe not, but it's worth a look.

Sportinlife, That is the point, there isn't any profit in the flu vaccine so there isn't any incentive to produce it other than concern by the CDC and such governmental organizations to protect citizens. Apparantly the administration had been warned about a possible shortfall before and in fact when asked about this described it as something that had started a while ago (or has been building for some time, I don't remember the exact wording), in effect, pushing the blame off on previous administrations. I will find the link and add it asap.
Anyone in the area of providing for the public's health should have an alternative plan set up in case of an emergency, the FDA demands such things. This isn't the same as a for profit drug company- more along the lines of the blood supply (which is where I work).

Here it is from Reuters
http://reuters.myway.com/article/20041018/...LTH-FLU-DC.html

[ October 18, 2004, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: gobar ]

Originally posted by Zeno:

I don't know if it's like that in all provinces but the flu vaccine is not free for everybody. You have to be in a group at risk (above 60, young children, suffer from an illness on a list, etc.), so it's not free for all.

Besides the categories mentioned above, the influenza vaccine is available free (at least in Alberta) to employees of hospitals and long-term care facilities, which is why I qualified. But I was surprised by the significant number of co-workers who refused the flu shot. I recall last year the province of Ontario made the vaccine universally available but I don't know if it's the same deal this year.

That is exactly why the focus must be on the FDA who are paid by the tax payers to monitor these things. If the FDA's advice is being ignored by bureaucrats who have power over its budget then we, their bosses have to be informed and respond.

Two stories that I saw on the news this morning:

1. People are crossing over the border to Canada to get flu shots.

2. Towns are holding "lotteries" to see who will receive the shots.

Oh, but there's no problem, nothing to see here, just move along and put your collective GOP heads back in the sand.

I wonder if President Dum-Dum Sucker got a flu shot?

Are you on the ballot again this election cycle or did you get enough of the tonic last time around?

Tuesday, Novemeber 3rd???? Sounds like Miss Thang is already downing that tonic. I would be, too, if I thought W was going to be elected.

Many of our soldiers are not able to get the flu shot. People who defend our country are not getting the flu shot. Does this outrage you, too? Yes, this is not a crisis.
CNN Story

You guys never disappoint with your cheap shots. No wonder you don't recognize your nominees' making them.

11-3-04 because that's when results should be known; I'm not one for predicting election results. But I can report my own: I won my election to the GOP County Committee earlier this year - first time an openly gay man did so in this county - so I won't be on this November's ballot, but I'll be in office for the next two years of the Schwarzenegger administration. :cool:

He's not in the risk group. Besides, he spends so little time in contact with the people, how could he catch it? (ok, gmginsfo, that's a cheap shot. Presidents in general don't really come in to contact with the public a lot) The real question is did Cheney get a shot?

Today it was reported a group of emergency room doctors tried to meet with HHS Secretary Thompson to discuss steps to take. Thompson refused, still saying there is no crisis.
I recently read the book The Great Influenza about the 1918-1920 pandemic that killed an estimated 100 million people. More died in 24 weeks than have died in the entire AIDS epidemic worldwide to date. I'm not saying this winter's flu will be like that one but there are sure similarities: a war, a president who puts faith before facts, a public health system that is overloaded and unprepared. Then as now doctors and researchers issued warnings that were ignored. What we can't say is what strain of virus we'll see this winter. If it's as virulent, or even partially as virulent, as the 1918 strain, considering the world is more populated and more urban, calling this an emergency would be like saying McDonald's has sold a few burgers sells a few dresses.

Oops, cut out the few dresses, it does not make sense and was another thought that I only partially deleted. Sorry for any confusion.

But November 3rd is Wednesday. That's okay, there are other Republicans who aren't too good with dates...

Speaking as one who in past years has been required by Uncle Sam to roll up his sleeve for flu shots, no, it doesn't outrage me in the least.

In fact, I would have been outraged had I been directed to receive the shot this year at the expense of someone truly in need.

[ October 19, 2004, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: PennState4Ever ]

Do you have a link to that quote from the soon-to-be one-termer?

It's in this article.

And for something on-topic...

French firm to supply US with 2.6 million flu shots

Freedom vaccines?

Now THAT is funny!

(Although, I believe that Aventis "outsourced" a great deal of its flu vaccine production to its Pennsylvania plant.)

JIP, Righ..., I mean, correct you are. Satan IS in the details! :cool:

Originally posted by Ms. de Blazer:

And considering the world's population in 1918 was under 2 billion (less than a third of the present total) that death toll of 100 million is even more staggering. The 'Spanish flu', as it was called, killed more people than the total who died in WW 1 (which was just ending) and WW 2 combined.

(note to Ms. de Blazer, you can use the 'edit' icon to change/delete anything in your post; I haven't set foot in a McDonald's for a very long time...are they really selling women's clothes now? )

It was announced on CBC news today that the US Food and Drug Administration is fast-tracking negotiations with ID Biomedical to ship an estimated surplus of 1.5 million doses of vaccine from Canada to the US. Your Secretary of Health was quoted as saying the plan 'does not conflict' with the Bush administration's opposition to importing drugs from Canada.

Mr. Thompson may have forgotten to read an exclusion called the "Bush Doctrine": "Exceptions to any and all consistencies shall be made for political expediency whenever the truth can be bent."

The flu edpidemic that started during WWI and persisted after probably killed my grandfather's two older sisters, in their late teens and early twenties at the time. They were one of many relatively young adults who died in the pandemic.

Though I am not aware of their health status other than the flu, or the genetic propensity of our family, I do know that the family was black middle class (not wealthy, but working poor) and no such early deaths have occured in such a manner since. Legend attributes their deaths to "tuberculosis".

We have already seen sickness and death among small groups of young and healthy people around the country from methicillin -resistant bacteria infections. It is these secondary infections that we should perhaps be more worried about.