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MIB
I read this article and was intrigued. I must admit I've never heard of reform such as that described in the article.

What do the masses here think about this suggestion? Would it--could it--work?

Interesting.

[ February 04, 2005, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]
MarcusF
It could work, but highly doubtful that it will. Many of my tax clients have trouble wrapping their minds around anything more complicated than the Earned Income Credit... and the AMT is a totally alien concept to them. I shudder to think what would happen with this.
sportinlife
I think a progressive tax on individuals is simpler.
MIB
QUOTE
MarcusF:
It could work, but highly doubtful that it will.  Many of my tax clients have trouble wrapping their minds around anything more complicated than the Earned Income Credit... and the AMT is a totally alien concept to them.  I shudder to think what would happen with this.
I think this should be given a try. It's the best suggestion, IMHO, I've read. It's simpler, and it's definitely a method that removes a lot of power and control from lawmakers and interest groups, which is probably the reason why it'll never be adopted. frown
HotlantaTarheel
A flat tax would also create a much higher individual burden on the lower classes and shift more and more money to the weathiest in society. Capitalism, when unchecked, leads to more and more money concentrated among fewer and fewer holders. A flat tax, instead of a progressive bracketed income tax, would eventually lead to the USA having an income distribution very similar to that of most 3rd world countries.
sportinlife
QUOTE
A flat tax, instead of a progressive bracketed income tax, would eventually lead to the USA having an income distribution very similar to that of most 3rd world countries.
...And might ultimately lead to domestic terrorism with the less wealthy people from the religious right being the primary recruiting ground for ideological demagogues, similar to what happened in Saudi Arabia. But those are dots too difficult to connect for those who only see the faux simplicity of regressive taxation.
JC
The U.S. already DOES have an income distribution similar to a third world country--its income distribution in the late 90's was very similar to Mexico's.
MIB
QUOTE
HotlantaTarheel:
A flat tax would also create a much higher individual burden on the lower classes and shift more and more money to the weathiest in society.  Capitalism, when unchecked, leads to more and more money concentrated among fewer and fewer holders.  A flat tax, instead of a progressive bracketed income tax, would eventually lead to the USA having an income distribution very similar to that of most 3rd world countries.
So what's your answer? Redistribution of wealth, which is essentially socialism?

Personally, I'd like to see a national sales tax on everything except food/water/medicine (those usually have a lower tax rate on them anyway). So something's going to cost, say, 17% more? Who cares if you're taking home 20% or more every paycheck?

Too many people look at any type of tax reform as helping the wealthy. They're rich; they're going to stay that way. They got that way due to several reasons, and rarely is it because of the tax policies of this nation. We should just focus on making the tax system simpler for everyone, and if rich folks happen to benefit from it, so what? I don't begrudge them their wealth. As long as a reform doesn't make things more difficult for the poor, there's no reason why a plan such as the one linked to in this thread cannot be tried.
CPT_Doom
QUOTE
So what's your answer? Redistribution of wealth, which is essentially socialism?

Personally, I'd like to see a national sales tax on everything except food/water/medicine (those usually have a lower tax rate on them anyway). So something's going to cost, say, 17% more? Who cares if you're taking home 20% or more every paycheck?
All economies must have a \"social welfare function\" that determines where the economy will end up in the Pareto-efficient \"long term.\" For non-economists that means there are infinitely many ways to construct an economy that runs on pure market principles (\"efficient\"), and market economics does not dictate any one form or another. An economy may be efficient with a dramatically uneven wealth distribution, or a generally even one.

Income redistribution is going to happen in any complex society, whether it comes from the government or simple altruistic largesse. Many forms of this redistribution have in fact strengthened our economy - unemployment insurance and social security come to mind.

QUOTE
Too many people look at any type of tax reform as helping the wealthy. They're rich; they're going to stay that way. They got that way due to several reasons, and rarely is it because of the tax policies of this nation. We should just focus on making the tax system simpler for everyone, and if rich folks happen to benefit from it, so what? I don't begrudge them their wealth. As long as a reform doesn't make things more difficult for the poor, there's no reason why a plan such as the one linked to in this thread cannot be tried.  
Yes, but the rich are far better able to game the tax system than the poor, and have far more incentive to do it. More importantly, wealth is far more commonly familial rather than earned - the best way to be wealthy is to have rich parents. I don't necessarily think that's bad, but I won't weep for them if they have to pay slightly higher taxes.

In fact, I would argue it is better to have income redistribution because it provides a powerful political force for good in the country. The more people are vested in the current form of government, not to mention fed, housed and clothed adequately, the less chance of revolution or social upheaval.

At the same time, income redistribution can be a powerful force for economic development and growth. When Henry Ford went to the $5/day wage, he was trying to retain workers and keep his training costs low - so he voluntarily redistributed income to his employees. But he also created a huge market of customers for his product - because the wage increase was so high, and a lot of it was paid in lump sum bonuses, which allowed workers to buy Model Ts. In the same way, when I pay Social Security taxes, I am redistributing my income to older people, who are in turn buying things, like vacations to DC, that help me economically, at least peripherally.

Getting off the philisophical soap box, I would want a LOT more detail on the specific proposal outlined here before I would support it. Any tax system, even a simple one, can be gamed, and the flat tax is no different. Exactly what would be "income" in such a system? What are we taking the 20% off of? Would people be able to switch back and forth each year, or would you have to sign up for a system for a longer time period? How would such a system effect the social welfare role the tax code plays (one of the main reasons America has such a high home ownership rate is because of the mortgage interest deduction - the tax code is a mechanism for reflecting societal priorities)? All of these questions would, for me at least, have to be carefully considered.
sportinlife
QUOTE(MIB @ Feb 7 2005, 03:24 PM) *
Too many people look at any type of tax reform as helping the wealthy. They're rich; they're going to stay that way. They got that way due to several reasons, and rarely is it because of the tax policies of this nation.
I'm boosting this thread to suggest that this fallacy posted on the board some several years ago - and before the recent financial scandals, and the current mess that has followed as a result - has once again been refuted by a Nobel prize-wining economist in today's paper. I've copied the text below since the link may change or others may not have a subscription.

QUOTE
The debate over the “public option” in health care has been dismaying in many ways. Perhaps the most depressing aspect for progressives, however, has been the extent to which opponents of greater choice in health care have gained traction — in Congress, if not with the broader public — simply by repeating, over and over again, that the public option would be, horrors, a government program.

Washington, it seems, is still ruled by Reaganism — by an ideology that says government intervention is always bad, and leaving the private sector to its own devices is always good.

Call me naďve, but I actually hoped that the failure of Reaganism in practice would kill it. It turns out, however, to be a zombie doctrine: even though it should be dead, it keeps on coming.

Let’s talk for a moment about why the age of Reagan should be over.

First of all, even before the current crisis Reaganomics had failed to deliver what it promised. Remember how lower taxes on high incomes and deregulation that unleashed the “magic of the marketplace” were supposed to lead to dramatically better outcomes for everyone? Well, it didn’t happen.

To be sure, the wealthy benefited enormously: the real incomes of the top .01 percent of Americans rose sevenfold between 1980 and 2007. But the real income of the median family rose only 22 percent, less than a third its growth over the previous 27 years.

Moreover, most of whatever gains ordinary Americans achieved came during the Clinton years. President George W. Bush, who had the distinction of being the first Reaganite president to also have a fully Republican Congress, also had the distinction of presiding over the first administration since Herbert Hoover in which the typical family failed to see any significant income gains.

And then there’s the small matter of the worst recession since the 1930s.

There’s a lot to be said about the financial disaster of the last two years, but the short version is simple: politicians in the thrall of Reaganite ideology dismantled the New Deal regulations that had prevented banking crises for half a century, believing that financial markets could take care of themselves. The effect was to make the financial system vulnerable to a 1930s-style crisis — and the crisis came.

“We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals,” said Franklin Delano Roosevelt in 1937. “We know now that it is bad economics.” And last year we learned that lesson all over again.

Or did we? The astonishing thing about the current political scene is the extent to which nothing has changed.

The debate over the public option has, as I said, been depressing in its inanity. Opponents of the option — not just Republicans, but Democrats like Senator Kent Conrad and Senator Ben Nelson — have offered no coherent arguments against it. Mr. Nelson has warned ominously that if the option were available, Americans would choose it over private insurance — which he treats as a self-evidently bad thing, rather than as what should happen if the government plan was, in fact, better than what private insurers offer.

But it’s much the same on other fronts. Efforts to strengthen bank regulation appear to be losing steam, as opponents of reform declare that more regulation would lead to less financial innovation — this just months after the wonders of innovation brought our financial system to the edge of collapse, a collapse that was averted only with huge infusions of taxpayer funds.

So why won’t these zombie ideas die?

Part of the answer is that there’s a lot of money behind them. “It is difficult to get a man to understand something,” said Upton Sinclair, “when his salary” — or, I would add, his campaign contributions — “depend upon his not understanding it.” In particular, vast amounts of insurance industry money have been flowing to obstructionist Democrats like Mr. Nelson and Senator Max Baucus, whose Gang of Six negotiations have been a crucial roadblock to legislation.

But some of the blame also must rest with President Obama, who famously praised Reagan during the Democratic primary, and hasn’t used the bully pulpit to confront government-is-bad fundamentalism. That’s ironic, in a way, since a large part of what made Reagan so effective, for better or for worse, was the fact that he sought to change America’s thinking as well as its tax code.

How will this all work out? I don’t know. But it’s hard to avoid the sense that a crucial opportunity is being missed, that we’re at what should be a turning point but are failing to make the turn


My only criticism of the author's conclusion is that it is too pessimistic about the possibility of change, just as I believe he was at one point too pessimistic about an Obama administration making it to the White House.

He fails to make it clear enough that the Bush administration caused the recent economic thievery by legally transferring so much wealth to so many people who had no use for it that enhanced greed was an inevitable result without an effort to "change America's thinking" before changing "its tax code."

This is an argument that needs to be hammered away at by the Obama administration, no matter the political sensitivity of discussing tax "increases" during a downturn. Most economists have already admitted that the government spending money during a severe downturn is generally necessary, they just have not had the balls to admit publicly where the money has to come from: increased taxes on the upper income sector which caused the downturn with their corruption in the first place.

The future of health care reform, the country and the world economy may depend on it.
Crew Chief
The author also fails to mention that Obama is making the economy worse, driving it to a point from which we may not be able to return. I can't speak to the OP's primary post about a national sales tax or flat tax, but what's going on now with this runaway spending and the trillion dollar deficits makes the drunken sailor spening Bush Congress look like a simple, little teetotaler.
aquaman
Flat taxes are seductive for their simplicity and seeming equality, but they are, in the long term, a terrible solution. If you have two individuals, one making $1million a year and one making $20k per year and assess each at a 20% federal income tax bracket, the millionnaire would still have $800k a year in post-tax income. The guy making $20k a year would have $16k. Let's just assume that (somehow) each could save 50% of their post-tax income. In 3 years, the millionnaire would have $1.2 million in the bank. The guy making $20k would have $24k. In 10 years, the millionnaire would have $4 million in the bank. The guy making $20k would have $80k. Keep that going and add on a generation or two and it would be clear that a flat tax system would create a permanent upper class and a permanent lower class. Sorry, but I don't want to live in India.

Income redistribution goes both ways in the US -- the Internal Revenue Code is just the most obvious and most publicly known means of income redistribution. We subsidize massive industrial corn growers like Cargill and ADM in the US. Where do you think that money comes from? It comes from the wallets of every tax payer. AIG bailouts? Income redistribution from the common purse the the bonus pools of a select few.

A flat tax would only compound the problems we face with respect to income disparity in this country. Count me out.
sportinlife
To the Gentleladies and Gentlemen of the United States Senate Finance Subcommittee on Health Care:
QUOTE
Please consider the financial burden of not passing the public option on your constituents. Perhaps the two greatest worries among them are the loss of health care and the loss of a job, the two often being closely connected. This worry may in no small way contribute to the health crises of obesity and the use of unnecessary drugs, both legal and illegal, as palliatives.

Removing the fear of loss of health insurance, over which few of your constituents have any real control, will have a trickle-down effect on economic productivity that will far outweigh the cost of implementation of health care stability; and might in the long run be of greater economic benefit than rescuing the financial markets from the problems of its own making.

You as senators theoretically were given longer terms than representatives to allow you the breathing room to think deeply about issues. Our founding fathers expected greater wisdom to accrue from this time.

Please Sirs and Madams take advantage of that buffer and do what is in the extended and enlightened interest of your constituents and the country.


My small contribution to the health care debate sent to each senator in the link. I am awaiting a response wink.gif.
fantomas
QUOTE(Crew Chief @ Aug 25 2009, 01:45 AM) *

The author also fails to mention that Obama is making the economy worse, driving it to a point from which we may not be able to return. I can't speak to the OP's primary post about a national sales tax or flat tax, but what's going on now with this runaway spending and the trillion dollar deficits makes the drunken sailor spening Bush Congress look like a simple, little teetotaler.


Okay, let's stop here. I would like to respectfully ask you a few questions.

Crew Chief, do you think the President and Congress should not have passed the stimulus bill? If not, then how should the President and Congress have addressed the plummeting economy? What would you have proposed? Do you agree with John McCain's and Sarah Palin's recommendation, which many in the GOP supported, that the President and Congress should have implemented austerity measures? Do you think we would have been able to avoid the sort of economic collapse that occurred after Hoover and the GOP did this in 1932, or when Roosevelt began cutting spending in 1936?

Remember that 1) the stimulus was not as big as many leading economists argued it should be because Republicans and conservative Democrats demanded it be trimmed and that tax cuts be substituted for direct spending; 2) the stimulus is scheduled to take effect mostly in 2010 as opposed to in 2009; 3) so far the economy has started growing again, as opposed to shrinking, though joblessness continues to rise; and 4) Sheila Romer and others have shown that economies that instituted a stimulus during this global crisis have had faster turnarounds that countries that did not (cf. Central and Eastern European countries).

Second, do you disagree with TARP, which was initially instituted by President Bush, Hank Paulson, Ben Bernanke, and Congress? While I strongly disagree with many of its terms, how Obama and in particular Geithner and Summers are implementing it and other economic policy, and still have questions about who benefited most (it appears to have been Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan Chase), given the enormity of the crisis at the time it was first proposed, it seems to have been necessary. But I ask, do you disagree that Bush and later Obama should have pushed and implemented TARP? In the absence of TARP, what would you have done?

Third, I agree that the current deficit scenario looks grim. What I'd ask is what you propose the US do to address the situation. It's clear that without government underwriting of a large portion of the economy we'd be much worse off. Even with the stimulus, Fed lending to the banks, TARP, and other government programs, like buttressing the FDIC, and so on, the federal economy is still on very shaky grounds. The ongoing housing-mortgage crisis is going to linger on for a while, especially now that ARMs and commercial real estate spell more crises to come. Some measures which would radically help turn things around, like cram-down legislation with personal mortgages, quicker nationalization of teetering banks (some 84 or 85 have failed this year, after the fastest collapse of banks last year since the 1930s), reinstitution of Glass-Steagall and 21st century regulation of some of securities, repeal of the bankruptcy bill, stronger measures to stop bankings from consolidating and hoarding cash, and so on, have drawn very strong opposition both from the financial industry and its lobbyists, and from the GOP and conservative Democrats, and Obama does not seem disposed to take a truly radical or progressive direction, despite all the demonizations of him to the contrary.

So what do you propose the country do to bring down the deficits in the short term without harming the economy? In the longer term, I think there are many ways of bringing them down. Some will be to completely withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan; trim military spending, as Clinton and Gore had begun to do; institute real health care reform, including with a public option or best a single-payer system, to bring down costs and ensure efficiency; reinstitute a progressive tax rate and abolish the Bush era tax cuts; and get as much as possible of the federal dollars we taxpayers invested in the mega banks and other financial institutions.

How we got to where we are, from: NY Times: America’s Sea of Red Ink Was Years in the Making
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sportinlife
QUOTE
In the longer term, I think there are many ways of bringing them down. Some will be to completely withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan; trim military spending, as Clinton and Gore had begun to do; institute real health care reform, including with a public option or best a single-payer system, to bring down costs and ensure efficiency; reinstitute a progressive tax rate and abolish the Bush era tax cuts; and get as much as possible of the federal dollars we taxpayers invested in the mega banks and other financial institutions.
I heartily endorse those proposals. In addition I would suggest the temporary institution of a graduated tax system similar to that in most developed countries - higher maximum rates at the upper end than before the Bush tax cuts - and fewer loopholes for both those and inheritance taxes. A law making it mandatory for them to return to pre-deficit levels after the deficit was lowered to some triggering level would make it easier politically. And an independent financial institution like the fed deciding when these triggers arrive would also help.

The administration deserves considerable credit for finally going after overseas tax shelters. This however should be pursued more aggresively. Partially enforcing a law is the surest way to prevent it from being an effective deterrent. Give financial criminals a loophole and they will make a lasso big enough for a Texas longhorn; and big enough to choke the world economy once again.

Part of the new revenue should go toward aggressively pursuing major public services infrastructure such as a national hi-speed rail system and publicly operated internet hardwiring that is leased fairly to all private communications firms. This would stimulate competition where there is very little right now - in the e-media.
SeaCraig
QUOTE(sportinlife @ Aug 29 2009, 05:16 PM) *

I heartily endorse those proposals. In addition I would suggest the temporary institution of a graduated tax system similar to that in most developed countries - higher maximum rates at the upper end than before the Bush tax cuts - and fewer loopholes for both those and inheritance taxes. A law making it mandatory for them to return to pre-deficit levels after the deficit was lowered to some triggering level would make it easier politically. And an independent financial institution like the fed deciding when these triggers arrive would also help.

The administration deserves considerable credit for finally going after overseas tax shelters. This however should be pursued more aggresively. Partially enforcing a law is the surest way to prevent it from being an effective deterrent. Give financial criminals a loophole and they will make a lasso big enough for a Texas longhorn; and big enough to choke the world economy once again.

Part of the new revenue should go toward aggressively pursuing major public services infrastructure such as a national hi-speed rail system and publicly operated internet hardwiring that is leased fairly to all private communications firms. This would stimulate competition where there is very little right now - in the e-media.
I agree wholeheartedly.

We need to refresh the old and build new infrastructure.
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