The willingness of the US citizenry to surrender its civil liberties to this near-total sham of a 'War Against Terrorism' is nauseating, most recently in the "unshackling" of the FBI to commit the same abuses they were notorious for during Hoover's lawless reign. As this staunch conservative angrily points out:
The new FBI: ministry of surveillance (William Safire)
Full Version: FBI is free to spy on us all again
[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]
[quote].... OK for the FBI to peruse the Internet's chat rooms, Emails, etc. to look for suspected child pornographers and molesters, yet everyone's up in arms if they snoop around for terrorists?
Maybe it's because we are terrorists who don't wish to be discovered as pedophiles.......
Maybe it's because we are terrorists who don't wish to be discovered as pedophiles.......
[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:
Permit me to preface my post here by saying emphatically that I am NOT one who is willing to "sacrifice a little privacy" for some security (remember Ben Franklin's comment on this?), but I do have one question:
Why is it OK for the FBI to peruse the Internet's chat rooms, Emails, etc. to look for suspected child pornographers and molesters, yet everyone's up in arms if they snoop around for terrorists?
Who's to say they'll just look for terrorists? They abused this power they had in the past, which is why it was taken away.
It amazes me that this organization has proven flat-out INCOMPETENT in the handling of these various memos warning of terror attacks, and the response is to give them MORE power? For what, to screw up even worse?
Permit me to preface my post here by saying emphatically that I am NOT one who is willing to "sacrifice a little privacy" for some security (remember Ben Franklin's comment on this?), but I do have one question:
Why is it OK for the FBI to peruse the Internet's chat rooms, Emails, etc. to look for suspected child pornographers and molesters, yet everyone's up in arms if they snoop around for terrorists?
Who's to say they'll just look for terrorists? They abused this power they had in the past, which is why it was taken away.
It amazes me that this organization has proven flat-out INCOMPETENT in the handling of these various memos warning of terror attacks, and the response is to give them MORE power? For what, to screw up even worse?
I have an Idea. Why don't we just get rid of the FBI? And the CIA. And all the other organizations in our governments alphabet soup who are trying to protect us. This way the average U.S. citizen can defend himself against the average terrorist. When the next airplane is highjacked and the next skyscraper collapses, when the next embassy is bombed and the next navel ship is rammed with explosives, we won't have to look to our government for help. We can point to ourselves and blame each other. This is the best way do't you think?
When the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor 60 years ago I don't remember hearing about finger pointing. I hear about everyone standing together and winning the war. We put all the Japs in camps here in the US till the war was over. Did we screw with their civil liberties? Damn right we did. And look what happened. We WON the war. And if our government has to screw with our civil liberties again to win this war then do it. Otherwise, in the future, we will not have a country with civil liberties or anything else for that matter.
We need to stop whinning and pointing fingers. We need to pull together and win this damn thing so our constitution will remain intact and this country will survive for another 200 plus years.
When the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor 60 years ago I don't remember hearing about finger pointing. I hear about everyone standing together and winning the war. We put all the Japs in camps here in the US till the war was over. Did we screw with their civil liberties? Damn right we did. And look what happened. We WON the war. And if our government has to screw with our civil liberties again to win this war then do it. Otherwise, in the future, we will not have a country with civil liberties or anything else for that matter.
We need to stop whinning and pointing fingers. We need to pull together and win this damn thing so our constitution will remain intact and this country will survive for another 200 plus years.
It is a traditional CoverYourOwnAss reaction to say "I could have done the job, if only you had given me more $$/people/attention etc." Airline security people are saying the same thing--as if the people who did the highjackings wouldn't have passed any Mattel-like security check.
Even entertainment companies do that--because different "administrations" fund things that don't come to pass until a new administration is installed. At a certain point, whenever the light is turned on, all of the "resting comfortably" cockroaches go scurrying around trying to look busy. The problem is that when Guys With Badges try to look busy, sometimes they harrass, lock people up, and manufacture evidence in their attempt to justify their previous lapses, or ego needs.
We need to hold our government responsible for the money and time we've already invested in them, and not rush to cover them in a monsoon of money that will more than likely just serve as mulch for their future dirty activities.
I'm for free speech--even when it means speech I don't agree with. I'm against the FBI snooping without warrants and controls even when pursuing "child" pornography. I'm for the FBI using their brains and far-flung network of agents and resources to actually come up with reasonable conclusions that can be acted on.
While the FBI plays the Blame Game with the CIA, the rest of us are left to wonder--what the hell are they really doing with all the billions and authority they already have?
Accountability and transparancy is the foundation of a democracy in my book, but it seems some are inclined to rip those pages out when that results in embarrassment. But to be embarrassed to hold those accountable who are in the pursuit of terrorists within the hard-won structure of our democracy is to me the most UN-patriotic thing we can do.
Being a good citizen doesn't just mean joining the army. It also means educating yourself and asking the tough questions without a Rush to Patriotic Judgment.
Even entertainment companies do that--because different "administrations" fund things that don't come to pass until a new administration is installed. At a certain point, whenever the light is turned on, all of the "resting comfortably" cockroaches go scurrying around trying to look busy. The problem is that when Guys With Badges try to look busy, sometimes they harrass, lock people up, and manufacture evidence in their attempt to justify their previous lapses, or ego needs.
We need to hold our government responsible for the money and time we've already invested in them, and not rush to cover them in a monsoon of money that will more than likely just serve as mulch for their future dirty activities.
I'm for free speech--even when it means speech I don't agree with. I'm against the FBI snooping without warrants and controls even when pursuing "child" pornography. I'm for the FBI using their brains and far-flung network of agents and resources to actually come up with reasonable conclusions that can be acted on.
While the FBI plays the Blame Game with the CIA, the rest of us are left to wonder--what the hell are they really doing with all the billions and authority they already have?
Accountability and transparancy is the foundation of a democracy in my book, but it seems some are inclined to rip those pages out when that results in embarrassment. But to be embarrassed to hold those accountable who are in the pursuit of terrorists within the hard-won structure of our democracy is to me the most UN-patriotic thing we can do.
Being a good citizen doesn't just mean joining the army. It also means educating yourself and asking the tough questions without a Rush to Patriotic Judgment.
It seems to me that he FBI is saying that if they'd had the current draconian abilities to spy on domestic targets, they would not be able to have stopped p/11. Yet they sit in front of Congress demanding draconian abilities to spy on domestic targets so that they can prevent another 9/11.
Then I watch a story about the FBI going to a Mosque for a job fair because they don't have enough Arabic speakers in their ranks. I wonder how many members of that Mosque are currently sitting incommunicado in a New Jersey jail because they speak Arabic.
On the whole, I have a great deal of respect for and trust in our law enforcement agencies. I believe they really are out to get the real bad guys and are doing the best they can within a flawed system. But episodes like what we've seen since 9/11 demonstrate that the system is already strained to the limit, and when international terrorism is dumped on top of that flawed system it fragments into something that is not even aware of the best interests of its citizens, much less able to act on them.
Then I watch a story about the FBI going to a Mosque for a job fair because they don't have enough Arabic speakers in their ranks. I wonder how many members of that Mosque are currently sitting incommunicado in a New Jersey jail because they speak Arabic.
On the whole, I have a great deal of respect for and trust in our law enforcement agencies. I believe they really are out to get the real bad guys and are doing the best they can within a flawed system. But episodes like what we've seen since 9/11 demonstrate that the system is already strained to the limit, and when international terrorism is dumped on top of that flawed system it fragments into something that is not even aware of the best interests of its citizens, much less able to act on them.
[quote]Originally posted by Brent:
It is a traditional CoverYourOwnAss reaction to say "I could have done the job, if only you had given me more $$/people/attention etc." Airline security people are saying the same thing--as if the people who did the highjackings wouldn't have passed any Mattel-like security check.
Isn't that also the traditional liberal response to the well-documented failures of public education: that we only need to spend more money and the problem goes away?? Intersting the role versals between liberals and conservatives on this,
One other point to those who are crying for heads to be lopped off because of the FBI failure to give proper regard to the Minneapolis and Phoenix field office memos. Go into your way-back machine and answer this question: What was perceived to be the primary law enforcement problem in this country on September 10? Anyone?
If you remember, the primary law enforcement problem facing America on September 10 was: RACIAL AND ETHNIC PROFILING! Surely you remember. The Diallo case in New York. Black drivers in Christine Todd Whitman's New Jersey. It was in all the papers.
Now look at the Minneapolis memo. What was the basis for suspicion in Coleen Rowley's memo? Ethnic profiling! Too many Arab nationals on expired visas taking flight training! Special Agent Rowley was engaged in pure ethnic profiling.
And even after September 11, the so-called civil liberties watchdogs (I use the term loosely because the ACLU has gotten out of the civil liberties business and is now merely a left-wing advocacy group) talked about how we shouldn't single out Arab Nationals as suspects. The ACLU types, and that cruel farce known as Amnesty International, still oppose the post-9-11 detention of foreign nationals who (1) like the future terrorists cited in Minneapolis memo are here on expired visas and (2) are Arab nationals and (3) know known terrorists (guilt by association!) and (4) nothing else.
How many terrorist incidents have been thwarted by these post-9-11 detentions? Could be zero. Could be hundreds. This isn't "It's a Wonderful Life." We'll never be shown what might have been.
And what would've happened if the FBI had listened to special agent Rowley and detained the future terrorists for the crime of "flying while Arab"? Think John Ashcroft and Robert Mueller would have been thanked for saving thousands of lives and the New York skyline? More likely, the ACLU and Amnesty International still would be screaming about Ashcroft's gestapo tactics and, yes, racial profiling.
It's easy with 20/20 hindsight (more like 20/15 hindsight) that the FBI and the CIA (who are barred by law from operating within the U.S. borders) should've known. It's easier to scream that someone else should've known something, should've done something, than it is to figure our how to prevent such occurrences in the future. Personally, I think the failure was that law enforcement in general, and the FBI in particular, were unwilling to engage in ethnically profiling Arab nationals. I think it is a travesty and a disaster-in-waiting that airport security is not ethnically profiling Arab nationals (NOT Arab-Americans, but foreigners here on visa from the Islamic countries of North Africa and Western Asia.) But that's my opinion. I don't have all the information.
Investigate, sure, but don't use this as an excuse to beat the dead corpse of J. Edgar Hoover.
It is a traditional CoverYourOwnAss reaction to say "I could have done the job, if only you had given me more $$/people/attention etc." Airline security people are saying the same thing--as if the people who did the highjackings wouldn't have passed any Mattel-like security check.
Isn't that also the traditional liberal response to the well-documented failures of public education: that we only need to spend more money and the problem goes away?? Intersting the role versals between liberals and conservatives on this,
One other point to those who are crying for heads to be lopped off because of the FBI failure to give proper regard to the Minneapolis and Phoenix field office memos. Go into your way-back machine and answer this question: What was perceived to be the primary law enforcement problem in this country on September 10? Anyone?
If you remember, the primary law enforcement problem facing America on September 10 was: RACIAL AND ETHNIC PROFILING! Surely you remember. The Diallo case in New York. Black drivers in Christine Todd Whitman's New Jersey. It was in all the papers.
Now look at the Minneapolis memo. What was the basis for suspicion in Coleen Rowley's memo? Ethnic profiling! Too many Arab nationals on expired visas taking flight training! Special Agent Rowley was engaged in pure ethnic profiling.
And even after September 11, the so-called civil liberties watchdogs (I use the term loosely because the ACLU has gotten out of the civil liberties business and is now merely a left-wing advocacy group) talked about how we shouldn't single out Arab Nationals as suspects. The ACLU types, and that cruel farce known as Amnesty International, still oppose the post-9-11 detention of foreign nationals who (1) like the future terrorists cited in Minneapolis memo are here on expired visas and (2) are Arab nationals and (3) know known terrorists (guilt by association!) and (4) nothing else.
How many terrorist incidents have been thwarted by these post-9-11 detentions? Could be zero. Could be hundreds. This isn't "It's a Wonderful Life." We'll never be shown what might have been.
And what would've happened if the FBI had listened to special agent Rowley and detained the future terrorists for the crime of "flying while Arab"? Think John Ashcroft and Robert Mueller would have been thanked for saving thousands of lives and the New York skyline? More likely, the ACLU and Amnesty International still would be screaming about Ashcroft's gestapo tactics and, yes, racial profiling.
It's easy with 20/20 hindsight (more like 20/15 hindsight) that the FBI and the CIA (who are barred by law from operating within the U.S. borders) should've known. It's easier to scream that someone else should've known something, should've done something, than it is to figure our how to prevent such occurrences in the future. Personally, I think the failure was that law enforcement in general, and the FBI in particular, were unwilling to engage in ethnically profiling Arab nationals. I think it is a travesty and a disaster-in-waiting that airport security is not ethnically profiling Arab nationals (NOT Arab-Americans, but foreigners here on visa from the Islamic countries of North Africa and Western Asia.) But that's my opinion. I don't have all the information.
Investigate, sure, but don't use this as an excuse to beat the dead corpse of J. Edgar Hoover.
"We put all the Japs in camps here in the US till the war was over. Did we screw with their civil liberties? Damn right we did. And look what happened. We WON the war. And if our government has to screw with our civil liberties again to win this war then do it."
Thumper, this is just despicable. First of all, it's very unlikely that interning Japanese Americans had any impact on the outcome of the war. German and Italian Americans, and even known Nazi sympathizers like George Bush's grandfather were not interned. This is spoken like a white guy who knows that it would never happen to him. Who cares about the civil rights of Japs or Chinks or spics or gooks or niggers, right?
Secondly, I don't agree that we should take any means necessary to win this war. "We won't have a country" is just such an absurd, hysterical reaction. Get some perspective. Way more Americans were killed by car accidents and murders than by terrorism last year. This might well have been averted with a competent INS with a decent computer database without any changes of the laws at all. If we become a police state to "save" our country, are we really saving anything worth having?
Finally, any civil liberties we surrender now, we will never get back. Japan was a country. Terrorism is a concept. This is not a war that will ever be won--how would you even know for sure that you had won?
Thumper, this is just despicable. First of all, it's very unlikely that interning Japanese Americans had any impact on the outcome of the war. German and Italian Americans, and even known Nazi sympathizers like George Bush's grandfather were not interned. This is spoken like a white guy who knows that it would never happen to him. Who cares about the civil rights of Japs or Chinks or spics or gooks or niggers, right?
Secondly, I don't agree that we should take any means necessary to win this war. "We won't have a country" is just such an absurd, hysterical reaction. Get some perspective. Way more Americans were killed by car accidents and murders than by terrorism last year. This might well have been averted with a competent INS with a decent computer database without any changes of the laws at all. If we become a police state to "save" our country, are we really saving anything worth having?
Finally, any civil liberties we surrender now, we will never get back. Japan was a country. Terrorism is a concept. This is not a war that will ever be won--how would you even know for sure that you had won?
[quote]Originally posted by thumper:
When the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor 60 years ago I don't remember hearing about finger pointing. I hear about everyone standing together and winning the war.
No, only in the sober light of history can we point fingers at just about every responsible figure in the War Department, State Department and Roosevelt administration. They should have known the attack was coming. They should have known Pearl Harbor was a potential target and they should have known Pearl Harbor was, perhaps, the single worst naval instilation in the history of man on water.
[quote]Originally posted by thumper:
We put all the Japs in camps here in the US till the war was over. Did we screw with their civil liberties? Damn right we did. And look what happened. We WON the war.
This is one of the more disgusting pieces of poor logic I've seen recently. The incarceration of the American citizens of Japanese descent helped win the war about as much as the German incarceration of Jews helped Hitler conquer Europe. World War II was won with active Japanese-American involvement in the military, yet the civilians, you know the old men, women and children, couldn't even be trusted to live outside of Arkansas.
[quote]Originally posted by thumper:
And if our government has to screw with our civil liberties again to win this war then do it.
We need to stop whinning and pointing fingers. We need to pull together and win this damn thing so our constitution will remain intact and this country will survive for another 200 plus years.
Wow, that's the most irrelevant, contradictory horse puckey around. First, I don't know what Thumper's ethnicity is, but based on his above comments, I'm almost certain he's saying "And if our government has to screw with THEIR civil liberties again to win this war then do it." Who needs to pull together? The people you want to put in camps? The people in jails around the country who haven't talked to their American Families since October? And what sort of constitution will we have once the Justice department has spat upon it (the more adventurous might replace the 'p' with an 'h')? Every time this country has suspended the Constitution in a time of crisis, it has been demonstrated that a) if didn't do anything to help the country through the crisis, and
the country would have survived anyway. This country has survived 200 years of preying upon its weakest and most vulnerable. We can probably survive another 200, but wouldn't it be nice if we actually formed a more perfect union?
When the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor 60 years ago I don't remember hearing about finger pointing. I hear about everyone standing together and winning the war.
No, only in the sober light of history can we point fingers at just about every responsible figure in the War Department, State Department and Roosevelt administration. They should have known the attack was coming. They should have known Pearl Harbor was a potential target and they should have known Pearl Harbor was, perhaps, the single worst naval instilation in the history of man on water.
[quote]Originally posted by thumper:
We put all the Japs in camps here in the US till the war was over. Did we screw with their civil liberties? Damn right we did. And look what happened. We WON the war.
This is one of the more disgusting pieces of poor logic I've seen recently. The incarceration of the American citizens of Japanese descent helped win the war about as much as the German incarceration of Jews helped Hitler conquer Europe. World War II was won with active Japanese-American involvement in the military, yet the civilians, you know the old men, women and children, couldn't even be trusted to live outside of Arkansas.
[quote]Originally posted by thumper:
And if our government has to screw with our civil liberties again to win this war then do it.
We need to stop whinning and pointing fingers. We need to pull together and win this damn thing so our constitution will remain intact and this country will survive for another 200 plus years.
Wow, that's the most irrelevant, contradictory horse puckey around. First, I don't know what Thumper's ethnicity is, but based on his above comments, I'm almost certain he's saying "And if our government has to screw with THEIR civil liberties again to win this war then do it." Who needs to pull together? The people you want to put in camps? The people in jails around the country who haven't talked to their American Families since October? And what sort of constitution will we have once the Justice department has spat upon it (the more adventurous might replace the 'p' with an 'h')? Every time this country has suspended the Constitution in a time of crisis, it has been demonstrated that a) if didn't do anything to help the country through the crisis, and
the country would have survived anyway. This country has survived 200 years of preying upon its weakest and most vulnerable. We can probably survive another 200, but wouldn't it be nice if we actually formed a more perfect union?
[quote]Originally posted by Charlie in the Trees:
Now look at the Minneapolis memo. What was the basis for suspicion in Coleen Rowley's memo? Ethnic profiling! Too many Arab nationals on expired visas taking flight training! Special Agent Rowley was engaged in pure ethnic profiling.
While I recognize that the distinction is perhaps too fine for some of those opposed to truely wrong ethnic profiling, I think that a memo indicating that a group of foreign nationals were breaking a law merely by being here and were furthermore engaged in suspicious behaviour (more suspicious today than it was then) is not the same thing as stopping black men who are driving cars "more expensive than they should be."
Now look at the Minneapolis memo. What was the basis for suspicion in Coleen Rowley's memo? Ethnic profiling! Too many Arab nationals on expired visas taking flight training! Special Agent Rowley was engaged in pure ethnic profiling.
While I recognize that the distinction is perhaps too fine for some of those opposed to truely wrong ethnic profiling, I think that a memo indicating that a group of foreign nationals were breaking a law merely by being here and were furthermore engaged in suspicious behaviour (more suspicious today than it was then) is not the same thing as stopping black men who are driving cars "more expensive than they should be."
[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]
[quote]Originally posted by Charlie in the Trees:
Isn't that also the traditional liberal response
Here we go again. Blame the liberals. Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnn.
Isn't that also the traditional liberal response
Here we go again. Blame the liberals. Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnn.
Like I said, stop whinning. JC, you reply is so illogical I'm not even going to address it. With exception. I'm not a white supremist. So stop putting words in my mouth. This goes for you too JQueer.
I used the camps as an example of civil liberties being taken away at a time of war. And that such unthinkable actions occurred to help win the war. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to explain every single detail about the messages in my post. I'm not used to communicating on a third grade level. OK?
All this, 'Im almost certain he's saying.." and "this is spoken like a white guy who knows it would never happen to him..." Give me a break. I'll discuss my post with mature critisms and not with guys who aim personal attacks without contributing to the topic at hand.
BTW-As long as I'm in the mood. This political correctness stuff is just plain stupid. Either we all go by color (black, white, yellow, red, brown, green or orange) or we all go by nationality, (african-american, mexican-american, japanesse-american or euro-american....) Lets don't mix it up. It just pisses everyone off. Cause the next time someone calls me white, I'm going to suit their ass for not refering to me as Scottish-American. And if I'm going to have to refer to you as a (nationality)-american, then you better have been born there and then received your U.S. citizenship later. And when the NAACP changes their name to NAAAA, they have no grip about all this nationality business.
SEE? Going by color is much easier. Everyone equal. No fighting, No law suits.
Thanks alot, now I'm to pissed off to sleep.
I used the camps as an example of civil liberties being taken away at a time of war. And that such unthinkable actions occurred to help win the war. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to explain every single detail about the messages in my post. I'm not used to communicating on a third grade level. OK?
All this, 'Im almost certain he's saying.." and "this is spoken like a white guy who knows it would never happen to him..." Give me a break. I'll discuss my post with mature critisms and not with guys who aim personal attacks without contributing to the topic at hand.
BTW-As long as I'm in the mood. This political correctness stuff is just plain stupid. Either we all go by color (black, white, yellow, red, brown, green or orange) or we all go by nationality, (african-american, mexican-american, japanesse-american or euro-american....) Lets don't mix it up. It just pisses everyone off. Cause the next time someone calls me white, I'm going to suit their ass for not refering to me as Scottish-American. And if I'm going to have to refer to you as a (nationality)-american, then you better have been born there and then received your U.S. citizenship later. And when the NAACP changes their name to NAAAA, they have no grip about all this nationality business.
SEE? Going by color is much easier. Everyone equal. No fighting, No law suits.
Thanks alot, now I'm to pissed off to sleep.
actually, jc's reply was quite logical and well constructed. there was one unfortunate leap of faith, but the rest of the post raised valid points that deserve valid responses.
did you ever notice how, when people realize they have no valid argument, they turn to indignation or obfuscation (e.g. taking a discussion about performance and resources and reframing it as liberal vs. conservative)
this is a good thread, raising many valid points that should be causing a bit more introspection than i fear it is. as someone pointed out, there is a latent us vs. them component to this argument. that is, it is okay to spy on THEM because they are so out of the mainstream as to be considered a threat. i find it heartening that many users of this board are able to consider themselves part of 'us'. i also find it frightenting that many of these same people don't realize that a good portion of the population, and definitely much of the current government consider users of this board to be 'them', worthy of covert attention.
the question of what you would do if the shoe were on the other foot, really isn't hypothetical anymore. the creator of the thread titled it correctly -- the fbi is free to spy on US all again.US
did you ever notice how, when people realize they have no valid argument, they turn to indignation or obfuscation (e.g. taking a discussion about performance and resources and reframing it as liberal vs. conservative)
this is a good thread, raising many valid points that should be causing a bit more introspection than i fear it is. as someone pointed out, there is a latent us vs. them component to this argument. that is, it is okay to spy on THEM because they are so out of the mainstream as to be considered a threat. i find it heartening that many users of this board are able to consider themselves part of 'us'. i also find it frightenting that many of these same people don't realize that a good portion of the population, and definitely much of the current government consider users of this board to be 'them', worthy of covert attention.
the question of what you would do if the shoe were on the other foot, really isn't hypothetical anymore. the creator of the thread titled it correctly -- the fbi is free to spy on US all again.US
Thumper, you defended the practice of imprisoning people solely for their ethnic origin. That's what the Japanese internment was--American citizens who were taken off into camps because they were descended from Japanese people. I don't care what country we're at war with--that's just wrong. If feeling that imprisoning people for who they are, rather than what they've done, is not something any civilized society should do makes me "political correct", so be it!
And if you don't want to be taken for a white supremacist, you might try avoiding racial slurs in your posts.
[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: JC ]
And if you don't want to be taken for a white supremacist, you might try avoiding racial slurs in your posts.
[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: JC ]
You want to go by color rather than nationality or ethnicity, Thumper? But you're the one who called our Yellow bretheren Japs.
You think assessing your stance as that of a member of the privileged class who does not understand the fears and hurts suffered by those abused by our society is, "personal attacks without contributing to the topic at hand?" Sorry, it's neither a personal attack nor off topic. Both JC and I were right as to your ethnicity without any clue but your words. If we'd guessed wrong, you would have an argument. Now you're merely fighting a rearguard battle to prove you're merely poorly informed and ill considered rather than a racist.
edited by jqueer who promises, one of these days, to learn to spell.
[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: jqueer ]
You think assessing your stance as that of a member of the privileged class who does not understand the fears and hurts suffered by those abused by our society is, "personal attacks without contributing to the topic at hand?" Sorry, it's neither a personal attack nor off topic. Both JC and I were right as to your ethnicity without any clue but your words. If we'd guessed wrong, you would have an argument. Now you're merely fighting a rearguard battle to prove you're merely poorly informed and ill considered rather than a racist.
edited by jqueer who promises, one of these days, to learn to spell.
[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: jqueer ]
[img]rolleyes.gif[/img]
[quote]Originally posted by thumper:
Like I said, stop whinning. JC, you reply is so illogical I'm not even going to address it. With exception. I'm not a white supremist. So stop putting words in my mouth. This goes for you too JQueer.
I used the camps as an example of civil liberties being taken away at a time of war. And that such unthinkable actions occurred to help win the war. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to explain every single detail about the messages in my post. I'm not used to communicating on a third grade level. OK?
All this, 'Im almost certain he's saying.." and "this is spoken like a white guy who knows it would never happen to him..." Give me a break. I'll discuss my post with mature critisms and not with guys who aim personal attacks without contributing to the topic at hand.
BTW-As long as I'm in the mood. This political correctness stuff is just plain stupid. Either we all go by color (black, white, yellow, red, brown, green or orange) or we all go by nationality, (african-american, mexican-american, japanesse-american or euro-american....) Lets don't mix it up. It just pisses everyone off. Cause the next time someone calls me white, I'm going to suit their ass for not refering to me as Scottish-American. And if I'm going to have to refer to you as a (nationality)-american, then you better have been born there and then received your U.S. citizenship later. And when the NAACP changes their name to NAAAA, they have no grip about all this nationality business.
SEE? Going by color is much easier. Everyone equal. No fighting, No law suits.
Thanks alot, now I'm to pissed off to sleep.
Maybe all that FBI wiretapping and snooping is getting to some of the folks here. A little taxonomy: AMERICAN indicates NATIONALITY. African-American, Xicano, Irish-American, Greek, etc. indicate ETHNICITY. Black, white, etc. indicate RACE. Skin color says little; many Latinos are brown or black, many are white, etc. (And as a recent report in the WASHINGTON POST noted, millions of Americans of all races have ancestral strains they are unaware of.) Also, please avoid racial and ethnic slurs. The correct name for people from Japan is JAPANESE. Using such slurs of any sort really demeans and poisons the discourse here.
There was considerable "whining" etc. among many Americans at all levels of the society concerning Roosevelt's security actions before and during World War II. He was attacked for his domestic and international aims, especially by isolationists and peace activists; in fact, before the war, especially from 1934-1938, many conservative politicians in the U.S., as well as politicos in the Democratic Party, were isolationist or pro-Germany (despite Hitler's takeover of the government in 1933 and his steadily increasing anti-Semitic and militaristic moves), especially since Germany represented a "bulwark" against Communism, to use Charles Lindbergh's phrase. FDR even signed the Neutrality Act in 1936, though he tried to get around it in 1938 after Hitler had annexed Austria and the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. So before you rewrite history, seriously check out one of the many studies on World War II.
With each new piece of information that comes out--it increasingly is clear that the FBI, CIA and INS really screwed up in the months leading up to September 11. As Americans it is our duty to demand that they do their jobs better and use the many billions we give them EACH year--far more than is spent on education, welfare, the arts, science research, etc.--to do their job! If you believe in the U.S. Constitution, you also will understand that grossly violating it is no way to protect it. The FBI and CIA have considerable latitude, and the most recent actions may lead to the kinds of abuses for which the FBI AND CIA have become notorious. As far as the CIA goes, I will be willing to cut them some slack when they find 1) Osama Bin Laden, and 2) Mullah Omar. There are only so many places these two creeps can be....
[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: fantomas ]
Like I said, stop whinning. JC, you reply is so illogical I'm not even going to address it. With exception. I'm not a white supremist. So stop putting words in my mouth. This goes for you too JQueer.
I used the camps as an example of civil liberties being taken away at a time of war. And that such unthinkable actions occurred to help win the war. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to explain every single detail about the messages in my post. I'm not used to communicating on a third grade level. OK?
All this, 'Im almost certain he's saying.." and "this is spoken like a white guy who knows it would never happen to him..." Give me a break. I'll discuss my post with mature critisms and not with guys who aim personal attacks without contributing to the topic at hand.
BTW-As long as I'm in the mood. This political correctness stuff is just plain stupid. Either we all go by color (black, white, yellow, red, brown, green or orange) or we all go by nationality, (african-american, mexican-american, japanesse-american or euro-american....) Lets don't mix it up. It just pisses everyone off. Cause the next time someone calls me white, I'm going to suit their ass for not refering to me as Scottish-American. And if I'm going to have to refer to you as a (nationality)-american, then you better have been born there and then received your U.S. citizenship later. And when the NAACP changes their name to NAAAA, they have no grip about all this nationality business.
SEE? Going by color is much easier. Everyone equal. No fighting, No law suits.
Thanks alot, now I'm to pissed off to sleep.
Maybe all that FBI wiretapping and snooping is getting to some of the folks here. A little taxonomy: AMERICAN indicates NATIONALITY. African-American, Xicano, Irish-American, Greek, etc. indicate ETHNICITY. Black, white, etc. indicate RACE. Skin color says little; many Latinos are brown or black, many are white, etc. (And as a recent report in the WASHINGTON POST noted, millions of Americans of all races have ancestral strains they are unaware of.) Also, please avoid racial and ethnic slurs. The correct name for people from Japan is JAPANESE. Using such slurs of any sort really demeans and poisons the discourse here.
There was considerable "whining" etc. among many Americans at all levels of the society concerning Roosevelt's security actions before and during World War II. He was attacked for his domestic and international aims, especially by isolationists and peace activists; in fact, before the war, especially from 1934-1938, many conservative politicians in the U.S., as well as politicos in the Democratic Party, were isolationist or pro-Germany (despite Hitler's takeover of the government in 1933 and his steadily increasing anti-Semitic and militaristic moves), especially since Germany represented a "bulwark" against Communism, to use Charles Lindbergh's phrase. FDR even signed the Neutrality Act in 1936, though he tried to get around it in 1938 after Hitler had annexed Austria and the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. So before you rewrite history, seriously check out one of the many studies on World War II.
With each new piece of information that comes out--it increasingly is clear that the FBI, CIA and INS really screwed up in the months leading up to September 11. As Americans it is our duty to demand that they do their jobs better and use the many billions we give them EACH year--far more than is spent on education, welfare, the arts, science research, etc.--to do their job! If you believe in the U.S. Constitution, you also will understand that grossly violating it is no way to protect it. The FBI and CIA have considerable latitude, and the most recent actions may lead to the kinds of abuses for which the FBI AND CIA have become notorious. As far as the CIA goes, I will be willing to cut them some slack when they find 1) Osama Bin Laden, and 2) Mullah Omar. There are only so many places these two creeps can be....
[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: fantomas ]
[quote]Originally posted by Charlie in the Trees:
What was perceived to be the primary law enforcement problem in this country on September 10? Anyone?
If you remember, the primary law enforcement problem facing America on September 10 was: RACIAL AND ETHNIC PROFILING! Surely you remember. The Diallo case in New York. Black drivers in Christine Todd Whitman's New Jersey. It was in all the papers.
Now look at the Minneapolis memo. What was the basis for suspicion in Coleen Rowley's memo? Ethnic profiling! Too many Arab nationals on expired visas taking flight training! Special Agent Rowley was engaged in pure ethnic profiling.
And even after September 11, the so-called civil liberties watchdogs (I use the term loosely because the ACLU has gotten out of the civil liberties business and is now merely a left-wing advocacy group) talked about how we shouldn't single out Arab Nationals as suspects. The ACLU types, and that cruel farce known as Amnesty International, still oppose the post-9-11 detention of foreign nationals who (1) like the future terrorists cited in Minneapolis memo are here on expired visas and (2) are Arab nationals and (3) know known terrorists (guilt by association!) and (4) nothing else.
How many terrorist incidents have been thwarted by these post-9-11 detentions? Could be zero. Could be hundreds. This isn't "It's a Wonderful Life." We'll never be shown what might have been.
And what would've happened if the FBI had listened to special agent Rowley and detained the future terrorists for the crime of "flying while Arab"? Think John Ashcroft and Robert Mueller would have been thanked for saving thousands of lives and the New York skyline? More likely, the ACLU and Amnesty International still would be screaming about Ashcroft's gestapo tactics and, yes, racial profiling.
It's easy with 20/20 hindsight (more like 20/15 hindsight) that the FBI and the CIA (who are barred by law from operating within the U.S. borders) should've known. It's easier to scream that someone else should've known something, should've done something, than it is to figure our how to prevent such occurrences in the future. Personally, I think the failure was that law enforcement in general, and the FBI in particular, were unwilling to engage in ethnically profiling Arab nationals. I think it is a travesty and a disaster-in-waiting that airport security is not ethnically profiling Arab nationals (NOT Arab-Americans, but foreigners here on visa from the Islamic countries of North Africa and Western Asia.) But that's my opinion. I don't have all the information.
Investigate, sure, but don't use this as an excuse to beat the dead corpse of J. Edgar Hoover.
Come on, Charlie! I give you more credit than this! The main issues before September 11 were NOT racial profiling, which as several others have pointed out is quite different than suspicious behavior by foreign nationals who might possibly be terrorists.
First, the Amadou Diallo murder--and the Patrick Dorismond killing by NYC policemen--were far less of an issue in New York by late summer than the slipping popularity of Rudolph Giuliani and the potential collapse of Mark Green's campaign. Moreover, Christine Todd Whitman had long ago left her governorship in New Jersey, and Donald DiFrancesco was (badly) running the show. In the case of DiFrancesco, racial profiling was far less of an issue than the scandals surrounding his tenure as mayor of a New Jersey town.
The main issues in the late summer and early fall (especially in August) were the faltering economy and the Republicans push for more tax cuts; the shift in the Senate leadership to the Democrats; Bush's faith-based initiatives; the stem cell research flap; the worsening situation in the Middle East; and other domestic battles on such topics as the patients' bill of rights. Enron, of course, was just beyond the horizon.....
The White House basically ignored the findings of the 2001 Rudman-Hart commission on terrorism. Donald Rumsfeld was pushing for a streamlined military (and Clinton's military, so horribly derided, thus won the battles in Afghanistan), while Ashcroft did not include counterterrorism as part of the Justice Department budget. Bush, in fact, said little about terrorism during his campaign, far less than Gore, who had even chaired a terrorism panel and made recommendations (sadly not followed enough, because of industry objections) during the presidency of his boss, Bill Clinton.
To claim that the racial profiling discussion was the source of the FBI's and CIA's ineptness is really unbelievable! Really. The CIA did not track the two terrorists it knew to be entering, leaving and then returning to the U.S. because of...Amadou Diallo? Patrick Dorismond? The three Black men shot by state troopers in New Jersey?
No, they just weren't doing their jobs, even in light of WTC '93, the U.S. Cole, and the African Embassy bombings. They also failed earlier with Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski, who were not non-American Muslims, but who also wrought considerable carnage. I mean, WHERE is all the money going? WHO are they tracking and wiretapping? Ashcroft wanted to focus on medicinal marijuana users, ecological freedom fighters and anti-globalism activists....
Moreover, don't forget that Bush had been courting Arab-Americans (though not Muslims in general) during his campaign, and he hoped to win Michigan on the strength of Arab-American and Arab voters there; his secretary of energy, former Republican Senator from Michigan Spencer Abraham, who became invisible from late September through early January, is an Arab-American.
Seriously--as I wrote to Thumper, our duty as citizens is to make sure that our intelligence agencies do their jobs. If the Department of State or the Department of the Interior, etc., screw up, people don't hesitate to scream murder. Joycelyn Elders was fired for discussing masturbation; George Tenet keeps his job despite a string of mishaps and failures. Are you confident that the FBI, CIA and INS are going to do what they need to do--and work IN CONCERT with other government agencies and the military--to protect us from the most recent horrific threat Al Qaeda has just made? I certainly hope they are.
What was perceived to be the primary law enforcement problem in this country on September 10? Anyone?
If you remember, the primary law enforcement problem facing America on September 10 was: RACIAL AND ETHNIC PROFILING! Surely you remember. The Diallo case in New York. Black drivers in Christine Todd Whitman's New Jersey. It was in all the papers.
Now look at the Minneapolis memo. What was the basis for suspicion in Coleen Rowley's memo? Ethnic profiling! Too many Arab nationals on expired visas taking flight training! Special Agent Rowley was engaged in pure ethnic profiling.
And even after September 11, the so-called civil liberties watchdogs (I use the term loosely because the ACLU has gotten out of the civil liberties business and is now merely a left-wing advocacy group) talked about how we shouldn't single out Arab Nationals as suspects. The ACLU types, and that cruel farce known as Amnesty International, still oppose the post-9-11 detention of foreign nationals who (1) like the future terrorists cited in Minneapolis memo are here on expired visas and (2) are Arab nationals and (3) know known terrorists (guilt by association!) and (4) nothing else.
How many terrorist incidents have been thwarted by these post-9-11 detentions? Could be zero. Could be hundreds. This isn't "It's a Wonderful Life." We'll never be shown what might have been.
And what would've happened if the FBI had listened to special agent Rowley and detained the future terrorists for the crime of "flying while Arab"? Think John Ashcroft and Robert Mueller would have been thanked for saving thousands of lives and the New York skyline? More likely, the ACLU and Amnesty International still would be screaming about Ashcroft's gestapo tactics and, yes, racial profiling.
It's easy with 20/20 hindsight (more like 20/15 hindsight) that the FBI and the CIA (who are barred by law from operating within the U.S. borders) should've known. It's easier to scream that someone else should've known something, should've done something, than it is to figure our how to prevent such occurrences in the future. Personally, I think the failure was that law enforcement in general, and the FBI in particular, were unwilling to engage in ethnically profiling Arab nationals. I think it is a travesty and a disaster-in-waiting that airport security is not ethnically profiling Arab nationals (NOT Arab-Americans, but foreigners here on visa from the Islamic countries of North Africa and Western Asia.) But that's my opinion. I don't have all the information.
Investigate, sure, but don't use this as an excuse to beat the dead corpse of J. Edgar Hoover.
Come on, Charlie! I give you more credit than this! The main issues before September 11 were NOT racial profiling, which as several others have pointed out is quite different than suspicious behavior by foreign nationals who might possibly be terrorists.
First, the Amadou Diallo murder--and the Patrick Dorismond killing by NYC policemen--were far less of an issue in New York by late summer than the slipping popularity of Rudolph Giuliani and the potential collapse of Mark Green's campaign. Moreover, Christine Todd Whitman had long ago left her governorship in New Jersey, and Donald DiFrancesco was (badly) running the show. In the case of DiFrancesco, racial profiling was far less of an issue than the scandals surrounding his tenure as mayor of a New Jersey town.
The main issues in the late summer and early fall (especially in August) were the faltering economy and the Republicans push for more tax cuts; the shift in the Senate leadership to the Democrats; Bush's faith-based initiatives; the stem cell research flap; the worsening situation in the Middle East; and other domestic battles on such topics as the patients' bill of rights. Enron, of course, was just beyond the horizon.....
The White House basically ignored the findings of the 2001 Rudman-Hart commission on terrorism. Donald Rumsfeld was pushing for a streamlined military (and Clinton's military, so horribly derided, thus won the battles in Afghanistan), while Ashcroft did not include counterterrorism as part of the Justice Department budget. Bush, in fact, said little about terrorism during his campaign, far less than Gore, who had even chaired a terrorism panel and made recommendations (sadly not followed enough, because of industry objections) during the presidency of his boss, Bill Clinton.
To claim that the racial profiling discussion was the source of the FBI's and CIA's ineptness is really unbelievable! Really. The CIA did not track the two terrorists it knew to be entering, leaving and then returning to the U.S. because of...Amadou Diallo? Patrick Dorismond? The three Black men shot by state troopers in New Jersey?
No, they just weren't doing their jobs, even in light of WTC '93, the U.S. Cole, and the African Embassy bombings. They also failed earlier with Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski, who were not non-American Muslims, but who also wrought considerable carnage. I mean, WHERE is all the money going? WHO are they tracking and wiretapping? Ashcroft wanted to focus on medicinal marijuana users, ecological freedom fighters and anti-globalism activists....
Moreover, don't forget that Bush had been courting Arab-Americans (though not Muslims in general) during his campaign, and he hoped to win Michigan on the strength of Arab-American and Arab voters there; his secretary of energy, former Republican Senator from Michigan Spencer Abraham, who became invisible from late September through early January, is an Arab-American.
Seriously--as I wrote to Thumper, our duty as citizens is to make sure that our intelligence agencies do their jobs. If the Department of State or the Department of the Interior, etc., screw up, people don't hesitate to scream murder. Joycelyn Elders was fired for discussing masturbation; George Tenet keeps his job despite a string of mishaps and failures. Are you confident that the FBI, CIA and INS are going to do what they need to do--and work IN CONCERT with other government agencies and the military--to protect us from the most recent horrific threat Al Qaeda has just made? I certainly hope they are.
I too believe we need to find out what happened with all these agencies. But not now in the middle of the war. Correct the problem yes, but save the finger pointing until the war is over. We need to be fighting the terrorist, not each other. UNITED WE STAND
It's ironic, the same thing is happening in this thread. We're pointing fingers trying to prove who's right and who's wrong. Disregaurding the topic at hand. Oh my God, I used the word 'japs'. God forgive me. It was 2 in the morning and I didn't take the time to write out Japanese. So suddenly I'm a racist or a supremist or unamerican or whatever you all have decided. This is why I rarely respond to political threads. All this bickering, whinning and judgmental name calling. Just plain stupid. This goes for the way our government is acting now also. Stick to the topic of fighting terrorism. The only way to get to the bottom of this current scandel is to have everyone involved drop their pants and see who's right.
Personally, I've had enough of all this nonsense. I've wasted to much time here. I need to get to the cleaners before they close and pick up my white robe and hood with the new rainbow KKK emblem on the front.
[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: thumper ]
It's ironic, the same thing is happening in this thread. We're pointing fingers trying to prove who's right and who's wrong. Disregaurding the topic at hand. Oh my God, I used the word 'japs'. God forgive me. It was 2 in the morning and I didn't take the time to write out Japanese. So suddenly I'm a racist or a supremist or unamerican or whatever you all have decided. This is why I rarely respond to political threads. All this bickering, whinning and judgmental name calling. Just plain stupid. This goes for the way our government is acting now also. Stick to the topic of fighting terrorism. The only way to get to the bottom of this current scandel is to have everyone involved drop their pants and see who's right.
Personally, I've had enough of all this nonsense. I've wasted to much time here. I need to get to the cleaners before they close and pick up my white robe and hood with the new rainbow KKK emblem on the front.
[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: thumper ]
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.