Is the rebuilding of Iraq going well or poorly? Do we have no plan, or even no clue? Is the post-war resistance reason to pull out?

Here's some historical perspective. WW2. And the "Werewolves," the Nazi-remnant guerilla campaign that lasted in post-war Germany until the 1947 ... two years after Hitler's death and Germany's surrender: \"The Werewolf Principle\" (click right here).

According to the article:
They even damaged arts and antiquities from the Berlin museum.

History just keeps repeating and repeating. The rebuilding of Germany (especially in the American, British and Vichy sectors) went pretty well. Just a little perspective next time some NPR/CNN type drops a Q-bomb (as in "quagmire") after experiencing a Vietnam flashback.

Of course, one could argue that the rebuilding of Germany hasn't gone all that well. After all, 60 years later, we still have troops stationed there. Damn you FDR. Damn you Harry Truman. You had no exit strategy!

Last point humorously taken. After all, the exit strategy was no exit strategy as long as the Soviet Union occupied the eastern part of the country. Then, the natural evolution of NATO made the German bases exceptionally valuable, and we are where we are today due to what grew out of WWII.

This exact topic was being discussed today on NPR. The guest expert was postulating that our problem is not that we do not know how to manage the rebuilding process. He stated very clearly that we know what needs to be done. He postulated that the problem is that it is much more difficult than anticipated and that we either need to commit fully to making it a reality, or find a different solution.

Not surprisingly, he advocated a much stronger internationally oriented effort. Take the pressure off the US forces which are losing combatants every day, and are suffering from exhaustion and low morale. (In most wars/occupations, there is always a plan to rotate troops so that your front line forces get a break.) He feels that bringing in international forces will help alleviate some of the animosity and pressure.

However, he stated that the administration really is not prepared to tell the American people that this is going to take 5-10 years and a whole pile of money when there are such concerns back home about the economy and other things. So, we end up in the middle which is the worst place to be.

Note to republicans:
Please keep telling yourselves that everything is going great in Iraq. People are ok with a body bag or 2 or 3 a day and spending a billion dollars a week. Yep, everything is hunky dory, spread the word.

Hey Razorback, while I may not agree with your political views, it must be hell living life in such a negative way. Every post of yours that I've read over the past few months has a strongly critical, if not hostile view of the President...but I've got news for you:

The election's over! Time to pick up the pieces and move on...maybe you and that voluptuous Molly Ivins could form a support group.

Note to Democrats: Please keep telling yourselves the world would be a better place right now if Saddam and his sons were still in power, that Bush is a war criminal and deserves impeachment, that taxes aren't high enough, that we need Canadian-style rationed health care, etc. Yep, spread the word. Bring 'em on.

I cant wait for this, i mean health care 7-11 style with all the "quality service" thrown in...

Need a new liver, well stand in line over there... we'll be with you in 10 months...

need a check up? ok we can fit you in..... come next year? does that work for you?

Oh, and here is your 40% tax to pay for it...

With love,

Hillary "it takes a village" (ghost written by PF)

Funny how easily the "negative" shoe fits on the feet of both sides of the aisle. Some of the content of the last two posts is almost comical in nature. Perhaps some people would benefit from actually learning something about other cultures and the way they choose to value their fellow humans. Instead of just spinning the world until it looks the way they want it to.

No, I'd rather just spin the world until it looks the way I want it to.

But hey, I've already learned something just now - that a side of an aisle can have feet! So if a side of an aisle breaks its foot in Canada, I wonder how long it would take to see a doctor about it or get it fixed.

To be serious, it's commonly known that the canadian health care system is failing. long lines ect ect...

but hey, everyone's got shitty health care, so everyone is equal! unlike that horrible america that has the best care in the world... but you'd never know it by listening to the socialist who are "stuck" here...life really must suck...

...for those who can afford it.

Horn, Canada is currently accepting applications for their country... health care will be welcomed for you there... too bad you wont be able to eat after you pay the tax man... it's not good to stand in a 3 hour line on an empty stomach...

Opie - I dont know about Mayberry but it in the rest of the country we're still free to be "strongly critical" of the president all we want. For the time being anyway. If you've been reading my posts for the last few months you might have figured out that I think Bush is dumber than homemade dirt hence the bashing, and Im sure it will continue.

P.S. I know Molly Ivans aint as purrty as Aunt Bea, but Molly's got alot more functioning brain cells than one Texan who cant eat a pretzel without getting a black eye.

Raze, is the homemade dirt smarter in Ark or Texas?

Regarding the topic, IMO one of the main issues is we assume that all nations aspire to the American model. I am not slamming said model, but pointing out that it requires a people who are of a certain mind set..or drive.
Regarding the entire Democrat vs Republican tension the is in every topic...
1) Sorry, I will not leave America just because I think some place has a better system.
2) I do have major issues with the direction the nation is heading, and would, and have spoken out if my concern is with either side. Clinton lied, I spoke out, IMO Bush lied too, It is my right to speak out about that too.

Sorry, I had one more point I wanted to ( try ) to make. Regarding the rebuilding of West Germany, Japan and South Korea. In my mind there is a difference in that we had a direct threat against us, so we went to war,won it and were wise enough to win the peace. the Korean conflict was a UN action.
I know some will say or think I miss Sadam, but I am not convinced that we had the moral right to go to war with Iraq. Yes it was horrible there and Sadam was a evil bastard. But so are many places of the world, and I am unwilling to have my nation shoulder the burden for the worlds ills.

P2, the point of the article is not to say the war was right/wrong.. the point is the country needs to be rebuilt.

agree/disagree with the war, rebuilding must happen... and it's being pointed out that it is merely a political game to say it should be done in a month... or without the cost of life ect..

PhillyFan,Sorry, I understand the point that was being made. I am sorry if my post was not clear on that. IMO the people over there may not be able to handel "A free Iraq". My fear is that they are un able to accept/build a free Iraq. Remamber Iraq was a country drawn up by England.
I would like to say that making it an international effort MIGHT ( I am not sure) make it easier for the people over there to accept/embrace change.
The other point I really want to make is I do not support the war as I do not think Iraq was a threat to us. I know we are the world leader, but we can not assume the role of righting every wrong. American blood is too important to me to spill at every sad area of the world.

Yes the UN is incharge of Afghanistan, look how good they have done there...

PhillyFan, I concur on your point. However we (the US) is not beating the drum at the UN about this failure...as I think we should. Also there is the question of oil, making Iraq more important to many nations.....

Can anyone tell me when the UN was ever successful at anything like this??????????? ever? except getting a bag of rice where it needs to go... what do they do well? except spend money of course.

Metonymy. "A figure of speech in which an idea is evoked or named by means of a term designating some associated notion." (American Heritage Dictionary, the one with the bad words.)

We covered this in the ninth grade.

[ July 28, 2003, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]

What have you done that was better?

I believe it is you folks who are wanting to do a big "we are family"... "free love" "world unity" UN mission to rebuild Iraq... I say we take care of it. Like we are doing now, and great strides are taking place...

However, in the view of we must be one world... you'd rather have a bunch of countries who are merely intrested in there "what am i getting out it" philosphy. IE Afgan. Where nothing is getting done and the people are just as miserable as before....

Phillyfan: you just might feel somewhat differently about the so-called health care system in the U.S., if like me, you had Medicare as your only health care provider. Believe me, just about everything and everyone else, is better off.

How long can we afford the weekly BILLION dollar price tag to re-build Iraq? Since we've saved the rest of the world from "the evil regime", shouldn't they pony up some thank$?

Well the UN has done some useful/ good things in the world. But they are more in the lines of aid than in the nation building mode. IMO a international effort could be out side of the UN, but would require non western nations to make it work.

Say what one will about the "Werwölfe," but here's some differences between Germany and Iraq:

1) Germany was a constitutional monarchy from 1867-1919, and a constitutional democracy from 1919-1933. Outside of the Nazi political, juridical and administrative systems, Germany still had a court system and some semblance of a parliament, as well as local civil and criminal courts which provided the Americans (and British and French, all of whom occupied Germany after the defeat) in the Western 2/3rds of the country with a tremendous base on which to build. Iraq's "democracy" was a total sham, and the country has not had anything approaching a constitutional system since the late 1950s, so there's a huge difference.

2) By 1941 Germany was the industrial powerhouse of Europe; despite the widespread destruction of the war and the razing of many of its major cities (Hamburg, Dresden, etc.), Germany's industrial infrastructure was not in total disarray, especially in the North Rhine-Westphalia area, which allowed its businesses, with American loans and lines of credit, to once again resume pre-eminence in Europe by the 1950s. A number of the major firms survived the war relatively unscathed (they had bankrolled the Nazis): Siemens, Krupp, Thyssen, Daimler, BMW, Hitler's own beloved "Peoples' Car" company Volkswagen, etc. This is a far cry from Iraq, where the one lone main industry was hijacked by the dictator, and is now being divvied up by the occupiers.

3) Outside of the upper echelon of Nazis, who were tried from 1945-46 at Nuremberg, many mid-level and lower level party NASDP members were swiftly rehabilitated and became leading figures in post-war Germany. This happened at all levels of government, including in the court system, at the municipal level, and in the universities. (It also happened in Austria, which led to the infamous Kurt Waldheim affair.) It appears that some of the American Iraq war planners foresaw something similar, but I think they realize that the best plan would be to clear out as many of the Baathists as possible, because even with Uday/Qusay gone and Saddam on the run, the ideology of the party could easily produce another dictatorial class, as well as a proto-Saddam.

I do think it's important, though, to discuss not only the present problems in Iraq, but also the future. I believe that the USA, if the will is there, can transform Iraq, but we'll have to bargain with some serious issues: the majority of the Iraqis don't want us there; their concept of a democratic government might be Islamic and parliamentary; the problems of the destroyed infrastructure must be addressed immediately and resolved swiftly; and we have no allies with real manpower or resources yet, so we need to find some of those, especially Islamic countries, if we want to make this work out.

To get some of our former allies on board, especially the wealthiest ones (Germany, France, Netherlands, Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, and the Scandinavian countries), to assist not only in peacekeeping, but in underwriting the reconstruction of Iraq, WITH THE USA remaining in the lead, we may have to make nice and parade something through the UN.

[ July 28, 2003, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Bet you were a lot of fun in the ninth grade.

[ July 29, 2003, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: William1865 ]

Once again we see an example of a conservative embarrassing himself. They like to divert attention from the relevant point by launching an attack on some tangent of the language being used. In addition to teaching them something about history, politics, treating people with respect and dignity, now we have also been able to give them a grammar lesson. I think we are awfully helpful, overall.

I still think it was a clumsy, awkward thing to say that didn't make a whole lot of sense, and would have been edited out of any halfway decent press release, op-ed or anything else that actually mattered. But I'm not going to get into some egghead grammar debate over who has memorized what parts of the dictionary and can reel off obscure word usages at the drop of a hat. I love that in another thread conservatives are criticized for watching the news, but here we're jes plane dumm if we didn't spend our youth sitting at home on Friday nights beating off to ninth-grade grammar textbooks.

Moreover, I seriously, seriously doubt that when Chuck saw this thread he thought to himself, "Oh, my, this looks like an excellent time to use a metonymy!" I suspect he was trying to be funny and ended up writing a convoluted, unfunny sentence that gave sides of aisles feet, and was saved from complete and total idiocy by Twin's dictionary/grammar fetish.

So in the end it boils down to one thing: Lots of people on this board wish they were as witty as yours truly. Not gonna happen, as Tom DeLay might say, no matter how many dictionary entries you can find to justify your poorly constructed, unfunny observations.

[ July 29, 2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: William1865 ]

Whats a "dictiornary?"

It's the word "dictionary" with an extra "r" in it. Duh.

William, it is a shame that not everyone can live in the fabulous world you have created in your head. After all, when you are there, everyone knows your name and how fabulous you are.

Unfortunately, out here in the real world, your bitter, biting approach to dealing with people who view the world differently from you is tired and unattractive. Trust me, my command of vocabulary and language is not an accident, but a by-product of my extensive education and knowledge. And if you were any type of writer or authority on language use, you would recognize that good writing has nothing to do with press releases and op-ed pieces. That is called public relations, and requires a whole different set of verbal skills.

You really should try to appreciate the fact that attacking others just points out how ugly and unhappy your personality is, and does nothing to add credibility to your own wacky way of looking at the world. It continues to be a shame that someone who shows the potential to be a worthy debater just chooses to be such an ass.

By responding in this manner, you only prove your bitter jealousy. Move on, dude. Please.

Why are ya'all concerned with grammar and spelliing? Who sounds smarter in writing?

I mean, i dont check my spellin' nor do i check for grammar, but at the end of the day, everyone agrees... i'm always correct.

Getting back to the topic, the US has persuaded lots of countries to provide post-war trops for Iraq.

A new Polish sector is being set up in across south-central Iraq including Kerbala, Nassariya, Najaf and Kut including troops from Spain, Bulgaria, Hungary, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Fiji, Thailand, Slovakia, Philippines, Latvia, Mongolia and Ukraine as well as Poland itself. This new sector will be up and running by Sep 1.

The British command sector includes troops fom Portugal, Romania, Czech Rep, Italy, New Zealand, Norway, Denmark and Lithuania.

The American sector has only US troops though. I dont know why that is.

France, Germany, Russia have refused unless the whole occupation is taken out of American hands and put under some multilateral body, be it the UN or (to save American face) some specially set-up organisation. This is in line with their general irritation with American foreign policy and is not going to change.

All in all, the US has approached 70 countries and 22 have agreed to contribute. From the "hearts and minds" perspective, the great problem remains that no Muslim countries have been persuaded to take part.

It seems that every post that PhillyFan is involved with quickly degrades into one-liners and insults.

That's why he's so much fun to have around.

New Zealand opposed W.'s glorious little adventure from the beginning. Have they suddenly had a change of heart or a change of government?

As for the rest of the countries listed . . . is this some kind of joke? Romania? Honduras? Fiji? Ukraine? This is kind of like Tony Soprano hiring street-people for his clean-up crew. At least Poland, the ever-loyal vassal, gets a cut of the loot.

Really, what do any of these countries have to contribute? I mean, the U.S.A. is having to foot the bill so that these eager-beavers can offer up their young soldiers as cannon-fodder. Anything, I suppose, to slap the "multilateral" label on it so as to deflect political pressure to turn the thing over to the U.N.

But that is another case where W.'s bluff has been called. If the goal of this was to end tyranny, prevent terrorism & promote democracy, this could all be accomplished by putting Iraq under a U.N. mandate. That would spare the cash-strapped U.S. government of much of the day-to-day responsibility of securing & administering the country, as well as provide much-needed credibility to any new government or constitutional convention that might emerge. It would also allow our sweltering, fatigued troops to come home, & probably other countries' soldiers would be less likely targets for ambush.

But . . . fat chance! No way are the Bushies going to give up their prize, or their real goals--control of world oil markets, plum contracts for administration cronies & strategic dominance of the Middle East. Moreover, one of the major reasons this war was undertaken was to assert American primacy over the U.N. in ordering international affairs, & to turn Iraq over to that body, with the implicit acceptance of its authority & legitimacy, would negate this entirely. Besides, free elections are certain to bring to power elements that the U.S. considers undesirable. So it appears likely that the U.S. will stay the present course indefinitely, even as its soldiers are being ambushed daily & the operation becomes a financial bottomless pit. Frankly, I think the administration believes the present cost & casualty rate to be acceptable.

Once again, WM1865 is the voice of reason... thanks WM... You should be the poster child for a true "American".

How did i get labeled as the one to bring a thread to a screeching hault?

This shows you how the conservative gets picked on way too much, cause we all know raze can do the same damage as me... and he often spell correctly.... thus making him better... as the grammar police would say...

Fun ... as in not take him seriously?

No, fun...as in enjoyable. (Ask Twin to provide a dictionary definition for you, he's good with that sort of thing.)

[ July 29, 2003, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: William1865 ]

Originally posted by PhillyFan:
Once again, WM1865 is the voice of reason... thanks WM... You should be the poster child for a true "American".


Wow William, first the poster child for Log Cabin and now for true "American!"

You're fan club of one really loves you!!

Have you guys swapped photos yet?

Sorry Raze, i didnt want to make you jealous...

Raze, you are, in the truest form, the finest Communist and Welfare Advocate i've ever had the misfortune of knowing, sorta.

I love you too PhillyFan.

I just figured it out: PhillyFan is a discussion board "troll"; you know, the type of person that will do or say anything to get a rise out of someone ... just as long as they talk to or about him.

If this was the Real World San Francisco, he'd be Puck.

Whatever it takes, PhillyFan, you go girl.

I think people who rant and rave on and on and on about people on welfare have some serious issues. Why? Well, Clinton and the Repubs enacted sweeping welfare reform a few years back, and the most a person can ever collect benefits now is for a total of 5 years in their entire life. This is supposed to stop the generational dependence that once existed and get people into job training and eventually jobs. Almost all of the states have reduced their welfare rolls by huge amounts since the effective date of the law. So why do people like PhillyFan kep bringing up welfare in their threads? It's gone, it's over, welfare as we know it has ceased to exist. Of course, the states are free to enact programs of their own, but PhillyFan lives in a state (Arizona) where there is no social safety net of any kind. And he's still complaining.

Well we are already imposing our brand of democracy on Iraq.
Saw a newsclip yesterday about a telecommunications company in Bahrain having setup a cellular network in the country using the middle eastern standard frequencies. They spent over $3 million of their own money and didnt ask for a dime yet. They were about to start handing out free cell phones to use on their network for police and other government people.
Well the US made them shut it off, citing that they did not have a permit to build it and that it interfered with the American cell phones using MCI. They would have to fill out an application. So the company asked for an application to do it properly and then were told applications werent being accepted just yet. This is after the US has already looked at 3 different bids from other countries.
So you see. Red taped capitalism is alive and well in Iraq already.

Previously at P&R:

http://66.241.240.127/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.c...t=000683#000012

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1007552,00.asp

The big holder of patents covering CDMA, Qualcomm, is located in - go ahead; guess - California, though not his district.

But then:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003May14.html

The BBC's article about the latest wrinkle:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3104285.stm

The GSM Association's website:

http://www.gsmworld.com/index.shtml

As always, follow the money.

[ July 29, 2003, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]

Or...PhillyFan has deeply held principles that put him at ideological odds with many on this board, and he has a dynamic, gregarious personality that allows him to express those views in an often unconventional, always witty manner. It's a distinct possibility.