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gdermody
In a breathtaking admission in today's NY Times Op-Ed, Eason Jordan, CNN's chief foreign desk news executive coordinator, admits 12 YEARS of silent complicity with the Iraqi regime, to protect some, and maintain their inside scoop track. Sounds like the Nuremburg "I did what I was told". Why was he not sitting supporting Colin Powell before the UN last month? This is an appalling revelation of inexcusable complicity, from a media that frowns on employees wearing USA flag lapel pins.

Here is the LINK.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/11/opinion/...&partner=GOOGLE

But just in case the usual NY Times habit of not letting the unwashed link drectly, here it is:

The News We Kept to Ourselves (NY Times Op-Ed 11 April) By EASON JORDAN

ATLANTA — Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep


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Reminder on discussion board etiquette: Please keep quotations brief. When quoting a lengthy article from an external source, quote only a brief passage, with a link to the original document. Similarly, when quoting an earlier post, delete all but the portion that's relevant to the point you're making. smile.gif Thanks - Outsports moderator

[ April 11, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: m1 ]
gdermody
Somehow this did not get posted or cycled correctly...
Anyway...

<snip>
.....
"I felt awful having these stories bottled up inside me. Now that Saddam Hussein's regime is gone, I suspect we will hear many, many more gut-wrenching tales from Iraqis about the decades of torment. At last, these stories can be told freely." CNN's Eason Jordan in today's NY Times Op-Ed.
Charlie in the Trees
CNN's even more insidious than all this.

I just saw a newsclip on my beloved FoxNews, of the Iraqi U.N. ambassador (Mohammed Al-Douri) checking out of his residence. Not only did the CNN reporter interrupt the Fox reporters' question in a way that sought to cut off the questioning, but as the Iraqi ambassador was leaving, he called out to the CNN reporter (among the various reporters) and said "thank you" and gave him a hug.

The diplomatic mouthpiece of Nazi regime, upon becoming unemployed, feels the need to thank and hug CNN? This is a pattern of which CNN should be ashamed. Don't know that I'd want to be known as the pet reporter of the New Hitler.
twin58
QUOTE
Charlie in the Trees:
The diplomatic mouthpiece of Nazi regime, upon becoming unemployed, feels the need to thank and hug CNN?  This is a pattern of which CNN should be ashamed.  Don't know that I'd want to be known as the pet reporter of the New Hitler.
Haaawwwnnnkkkkkkk!!! Godwin's Law invoked. Thread over.

http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/God...dwin_s_Law.html
PhillyFan
CNN's new motto....

We Report (what saddam tells us), you decide

So CNN knew of the horrible things the regime was doing... failed to report so they could keep getting stories and reports from Iraq. Is that really news or just passing on propaganda as fox news claimed to be doing, but never proved?

Dont you think this woulda been some handy info for the international community to get, but cnn kept it under their hat...
gdermody
I'd like to apply Godwin's Law(?) to the peaceniks here in San Francisco who insist on saying that Bush is worse than Hitler. However it would be counter productive to the causes.

They should remain as active and silly as they have been, not just for diversity of opinion, but for exposure. The secret of the rent-a-mob is out, and it is like the '80s with NOW's Molly Yard and Reagan: whenever she ranted on TV, there were supposedly more Reagan Democrat conversions.

Instead of complaining about them, I'd -encourage- them to get even more offensive. The weather today is cold an rainy, and will just help even more with fewer numbers to hide the diehards from the media. Even the granola Bay Area has its limits.
LACharlie2
The way he put it, CNN feared retaliation against their sources and [mainly] their employees - not about scoops. If they had gone for scoops, their people might be tortured or killed. You are twisting what he said.

I agree that sacrificing news to maintain their bureau is problematic, but CNN wasn't sucking up to Saddam. Their people were expelled from Baghdad before the war. They obviously were not in Saddam's pocket.

To attack CNN in a context where the other cable news outlets were cheerleading for the war and the Bush administration is ridiculous! Thank god for C-SPAN, the CBC, and the BBC!!

The yahoos who listen to Fox want to turn the Abrams tanks against anybody who objected to US pre-emptive interventionism!

I was against Saddam when he was our man in the Gulf in the 1980's. He was a Nazi-style thug then just as much as now, but he counted as an ok "authoritarian" when we were against more evil Red "totalitarians". Rumsfeld certainly cuddled up to him more in 1983-85 than CNN ever did.
Tim
Excellent point LAC. smile.gif Ok phillyfan,you want to decry the failure of CNN to tell the story of Saddams' atrocities to the rest of the world?And btw,the whole point of the article was that they were concerned with the safety of people connected with them,not that they were in some sort of ideological cooperation with Saddam.Don't you think if the motive was to garner ratings that spilling their guts (and sacrificing people they cared about in the process) would've been the way to go?? :confused: rolleyes.gif

Here's a question for you phillyfan-when did you decide that Saddam had to go?Do you think that after nearly 30 yrs in power,that the Baath party has all of a sudden changed it's policies and become oppressive? Have you been clamoring for Saddams' head ever since the Iran-Iraq war,when the world first gained knowledge of the atrocities he was capable of? Wearing the proverbial hole in your carpet from pacing in front of the tv,like someone alluded to in a previous post? rolleyes.gif

Probably not. biggrin.gif But hey,don't feel too bad-Saddam was a good guy then,because he was the enemy of our true ENEMY-Iran.You see,one mans' despot is another mans' valued ally.Sometimes I get so frustrated reading posts from you, because it's obvious you have no grasp of the complexity of the region and the forces that have helped to shape it.Did you read the Lind piece on the neo-cons,and their true agenda? Don't want to put words in your mouth,but I'm assuming,from your posts,that you would agree with what they believe. If so,I'd be very interested in hearing your rationale for supporting that position,because it strikes me as a very volatile and dangerous agenda.But please, something a little more substantive than "you lefties hate America" or "foxnews is #1 in the polls,so they must be right". :cool: biggrin.gif
gdermody
Charlie-
If we go back far enough, we can all takes sides and say we supported x over y:

The Ottoman Turks (& Germans) and the Hashemites (& British) in WWI? Remember Lawrence of Arabia?
The Israelis and Palestinians after WWII
The Iraqis and the Iranian Mullahs (Khomeni)?
The Afghani Taliban and the Russians 1980?
etc...

We have all re-evaluated out positions many times. Political situations are not static. Today's agrarian reformer is tomorrow's Stalin, and vice versa.

The point that there is some virtue in saying that you were against Saddam back in the '80s does not cut it. You have to dynamically evaluate the circumstances of the times. Saddam was THEN a better option than Khomeni, but he is certainly NOT the better option NOW.

I can appreciate the idealism of the left, but they have been wrong so many times.. Was Hitler a leftist because it was National Socialist Party? Was Mussolini a facist or a leftist, he started out as a socialist and evolved as he acquired power. The labels really mean nothing, but their actions do.

I believe Saddamn is currently in bed with Al Quaeda, you do not, history will tell (as well as a media that does not sell its soul to the devil for a story). I can understand Al Jazeera's behavior better than CNN's.
ung
as others have already said, this is not 12 years of "collaboration". This is not Vichy-2.

What Eason said was that there were tortures of CNN staff that was not reported by CNN. Why? because reporting would mean the sure death of not only the CNN employee in question. But also of their relatives and family.

Trying to keep innocents from being killed. is that such a bad thing?

and to those of you crying "CNN didn't report that Saddam was torturing people".
Come on! Let's keep it serious here. If Eason or Walton had gotten up and said, "Saddam is torturing people!" The reaction would have been "Tell me something I don't know already."

That was not news..... We all knew that. already

[ April 12, 2003, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: ung ]
LACharlie2
I'm just going back to the origins of the Baath Party in both Syria and Iraq - they have always been a fascist party, beginning with a pro-Nazi program - abetted by the Vichy regime which controlled Lebanon and Syria from 1940 onward. After the collapse of the Nazis, the Baathists admired Stalin, although they remained fascist corporatists as a party. They helped overthrow the Hashemite regime in 1958, then schemed against Qasim through the 60's, eventually supplanting him. Like the Nazis whom they patterned themselves on, the Baathists were a criminal clique, within which Saddam prospered and eventually dominated by his ruthlessness.

In any reasonable world order, such a thug should not be allowed to stay in power. The Cold War was not a reasonable world order - if you were the client of one or the other superpowers, it did not matter that you were a thug. Saddam worked the system so well, that he became a client of BOTH superpowers. Doug Marlette had a great cartoon of Reagan and Brezhnev dressed in raccoon coats sitting next to each other in a football stadium, both supporting Iraq.

Iran-Contra was an attempt in the mid-80's by a competing Reaganite faction to get the US out of the pro-Saddam axis of evil - the idea being that an Iran of whatever distasteful ideological tinge was nonetheless a geopolitical anti-Soviet force. We supplied [or tried to] Iran with anti-tank weapons with which to destroy Saddam's tanks, and missiles to shoot down Saddam's strategic bombers. Iran had Saddam on the ropes, and he was frantically trying to punish Iran and force them to make peace - this was when he tried poison gas on Iranian troops and the Kurds.

The pro-Saddam faction won out in 1986 with the Iran-Contra fiasco, supplying Saddam with lots of support, including satellite intelligence reports on Iranian troop movements. Saddam then double-crossed his American friends with his seizure of Kuwait in 1990. [Read George Schultz on just how incredibly stupid BOTH factions were.]

One reason why we want to kill Saddam is that nobody wants him on trial in the Hague [or anywhere else] telling all about the American Connection with 50 years of Baathism. It is incredible that the zeal to get Saddam is strongest among those who were his most valuable allies in the US government. Wrapping all this in patriotic vehemence creates a gaudy hypocrisy which might well win the All-Time Best Sweepstakes in the truly amazing mad history of American politics. You can't make this stuff up!! lol!!
Charlie in the Trees
QUOTE
twin58:
 
QUOTE
LACharlie2:
One reason why we want to kill Saddam is that nobody wants him on trial in the Hague [or anywhere else] telling all about the American Connection with 50 years of Baathism.
My suspicion too. I wonder if he has cut a deal.
Maybe it's because Saddam Hussein had alien autopsy photos proving that extra-terrestrials were being housed at Area 51! Or Saddam had proof linking the C.I.A. and Richard Nixon to the Kennedy assassination!

Answer your pagers: planet earth is calling.
PhillyFan
QUOTE
Tim:
Excellent point LAC.   smile.gif   Ok phillyfan,you want to decry the failure of CNN to tell the story of Saddams' atrocities to the rest of the world?And btw,the whole point of the article was that they were concerned with the safety of people connected with them,not that they were in some sort of ideological cooperation with Saddam.Don't you think if the motive was to garner ratings that spilling their guts (and sacrificing people they cared about in the process) would've been the way to go??   :confused:      :rolleyes:  

  Here's a question for you phillyfan-when did you decide that Saddam had to go?Do you think that after nearly 30 yrs in power,that the Baath party has all of a sudden changed it's policies and become oppressive? Have you been clamoring for Saddams' head ever since the Iran-Iraq war,when the world first gained knowledge of the atrocities he was capable of? Wearing the proverbial hole in your carpet from pacing in front of the tv,like someone alluded to in a previous post?   rolleyes.gif  

   
I'll post more fox ratings next week for you if you wish...

It's very easy to go back and say "oh we supported him in 1980" and armchair qb isnt it? I'm sure you can say we shoulda done alot of things in differently in 1980. Fact is, you dont know how they were going to turn out back then, now do you? In fact, it was on what...23 years ago? I do the believe the post after yours answered your questions anyway.

Like it or not, CNN sat on a story... a big story of how their press was being held down and they were not able to fully report the truth. If they did they would be kicked out i'm sure. To me, that is the best way to run a news service. Report what you can at all cost just so you can have a reporter in Baghdad. My question is this now, how much of their reporting from there can you now trust? How much was real, how much was a 1/2 truth?
LACharlie2
I'd be careful before I went with what you perceive is the jingostic flow on Fox News. Remember that queers are child molesters and child molesters are terrorists [Ashcroft really said that! lol!]

History did not begin anew when Baghdad fell to American air and tank superiority - you dismiss history at your peril! The Rumsfeld who shook Saddam's hand in the mid-80's is the same guy today - maybe even more set in his ways. He was ready to dismiss Tony Blair - who needs the Brits? - we'll do it alone! Just because you CAN act unilaterally doesn't mean that you should.

A&E just ran a truncated Napoleon mini-series in which one episode was Napoleon's reaction to a failed assassination attempt. He sent French troops on a raid to kidanap one of the French royal heirs just across the German border, who was brought back and executed. It prompted a famous quote: "It was worse than a crime, it was a mistake!"

I spoke out at one of the first antiwar rallies in 1964 and used this quote. It was true then, and it is true now. There's nothing wrong with bold action, but shortsighted stupidity is something else. Cable war mania is like cheap beer - tomorrow you will regret it!
ung
NO Phillyfan,

CNN did not sit on a story. CNN protected innocent people from slaughter. And if you wanna talk about "sitting on a story" by news organizations, I can more than go tit for tat with you with examples of Roger Ailes and his Fox News sitting on stories concerning conservative organizations.
Cyd at Outsports
Objectivity in the press is a farce.

[ April 14, 2003, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Cyd at Outsports ]
danimal
QUOTE
LACharlie2:
One reason why we want to kill Saddam is that nobody wants him on trial in the Hague [or anywhere else] telling all about the American Connection with 50 years of Baathism.  
Of course we don't ... any more than we wanted Noriega to expose CIA complicity with the drug cartels. The only reason we held off invading as long as we did is that Saddam was such a useful whipping boy (well, that and it gave us time to build bases all over the region, most notably in Qatar).

This isn't mere hindsight. Saddam didn't change his stripes any more than Pinochet or Milosevic. He just outlived his usefulness, like Diem in Nam.

"Lesser of two evils" is one thing when you're talking about distasteful but mostly law-abiding presidential candidates in a democracy. It's another thing when you're talking about ruthless butchers accountable to no one but their benefactors ... and too often, that's been a case of your tax dollars at work. Bread and circuses! Hail Caesar!

[ April 14, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: danimal ]
Charlie in the Trees
QUOTE
ung:
NO Phillyfan,
CNN did not sit on a story. CNN protected innocent people from slaughter.
That's a very generous spin.
CNN issued deliberately misleading coverage from Baghdad. As a result of their misleading coverage, people died. For example, they did not report stories of the torture and murder of their own staff. Which led to ... more staff being tortured and murdered. But of course, that staff was Iraqi citizens, so I guess that didn't count as far as Eason Jordan was concerned. To CNN, Iraqi blood doesn't count.

Why broadcast from the capital of a dictator when all your doing is broadcasting the dysinformation pre-cleared by the dictator? What public good did that serve?
LACharlie2
In the interests of more info on Saddam and the CIA, here's some recent info/analysis by competent writers:

Two recent newspaper stories which confirm that the CIA aided in the rise to power by Saddam Hussein are: Roger Morris, "A Tyrant 40 Years in the Making," _New York Times_ (14 Mar. 2003)
A29 (op-ed); Richard Sale, "Saddam Key in Early CIA Plot," UPI release (20 Apr. 2003), available online at:
<http://www.upi.com/view/cfm?StoryID=20030410-070214-6557r>

From Sale's piece: "U.S. forces in Baghdad might now be searching high and low for Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S. intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials.

United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on the report.

While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi
Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim."

The Roger Morris op-ed piece can be found at:
http://www.dallaspeacecenter.org/40yrs.htm

CNN may have had personal info about torture and murder via their personnel, but the US government had a LOT more info on Saddam - do you think they should have made this public? Who should we hammer - the CIA or CNN?
Herr Tiggee
Cyd wrote, "Objectivity in the press is a farce."

Partly correct. Objectivity in the field exists, and is encouraged. Objectivity in the editor's office is a farce.

Many a great story has been lost by the people who make decisions on what airs/prints, and when/where it shows up. Those two components determine what and how the masses perceive the news.

The poor reporter never had a chance.
gdermody
LACharlie said:
"- do you think they should have made this public? Who should we hammer - the CIA or CNN?"

Is this not the crux of this debate, i.e.. "the blame-game"? We could spend the rest of our lives playing this intellectual tit-4-tat, and not convince anyone.

The real issue is "what do we do RIGHT NOW with the information available to accomplish the greater good for the greatest number", and that is where our individual values come into play. Some of us are more socialist (or libertarian, or religious, or autocratic, etc..) than others.

I could care less about partisan loyalty, and I do not believe in sitting on the side lines, protecting my tit-4-tat partisan score, waiting for the Monday AM QBs report. I believe there are such things as good risks, doing the right thing, and then accepting victory or defeat graciously... like a TRUE athlete, not a spectator.

Maybe we should keep a score card of all the good and bad political decisions since the Inquisition, assign the decisions to the left and right, and then use that data to proportionally allocate all future decisions.

It is one thing to use history as a reference, but another to play it like a partisan game. The stakes are far too high.

If this were 1938 Munich, we would literally be arguing the SAME points. The analogy is even more pointed given the lack of information at the time. And who turned out to be right? Did that person have better information? No. Was he extraordinarily smart? No. He took a risk and based his decisions upon his own values. Just compare the mindsets of Neville Chamberlain and Winston Churchill.

But what I do not understand in this debate is the underlying 'anger' that fuels this mindless anti-Bush anti-Republican tirade that blinds us to discussing the Iraqi situation in an intellectual way. All we do is shout past each other, and if anything, it hardens our positions. My God, Bush's approval ratings of his job performance are over 70%. What is it that some of us are/are not seeing?

I think THAT discussion (values) would yield far more light than heat. History (not OutSports) is going to judge whether Bush was right or wrong.
LACharlie2
The moral dilemma for Eason Jordan was a tough one, and I hope I wouldn't get somebody killed or tortured because I could have a story. Saddam's bloody rule was no secret - there are 1000's of similar stories.

The moral dilemma in the CIA - at least for the case officer in the field - has often been what to tell your local allies when the US sells them out. In 1975, a case officer working with the Kurds in northern Iraq [who had just been betrayed to Saddam] was told in response by Henry Kissinger that he was involved in covert action, "not missionary work". There's not a tribe in the remotest Himalayas that hasn't been sold out by the US sometime in the last 50 years.

Our fingerprints were all over Saddam's regime. You have to have triumphal amnesia, all wrapped in an anesthetizing flag, to ignore the past, and its probable impact on the future. Pre-emptive unilateralism is not a smart way to be a hegemon [aka world cop], and it leads to a lot of horror along the way.

[ April 15, 2003, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: LACharlie2 ]
PhillyFan
How do you try to spin this into something from the 1950's?

If this was Fox news, you guys would be all over it.... CNN now has a credibility problem.. like it or not, agree or not.

The question still remains, if you are reporting the news, but cant report it because people will be hurt, why stay in that nation? why report 1/2 the story? If CNN was so concerned about the employees, they would have packed up and left, that would have protected all of them because they would no longer be there to put them in danger. CNN just wanted the pub of being there.. plain and simple.
danimal
QUOTE
Gene Dermody:
I could care less about partisan loyalty, and I do not believe in sitting on the side lines, protecting my tit-4-tat partisan score, waiting for the Monday AM QBs report.
Good, because I have no partisan loyalty. Both parties spew pious rhetoric while playing chess with the rest of the world.

As for "anger" fueling "mindless tirades" ... you've pretty much described talk radio and the screaming Sunday TV pundits.

My point is that sometimes "the enemy of my enemy" is ... still an enemy. And an a**hole. A pox on all their houses.
ung
Charlie in the trees wrote
QUOTE

CNN issued deliberately misleading coverage from Baghdad. As a result of their misleading coverage, people died. For example, they did not report stories of the torture and murder of their own staff. Which led to ... more staff being tortured and murdered.
Ok. just think about that logic for a second. You're actually saying that if CNN had reported these specific cases of Hussein totruring and murdering that that wouls actually STOP Hussein from killing further? Are you serious?

I was under the belief that we shared the belief that Hussein doesn't give a shit that people think he's a killer. After all we reported his killing his two sons-in-law. that didn't stop shit. He continued to kill. didn't he?

What in the hell makes you think that had CNN reported the death of CNN iraqi staffers that that would prevent further deaths? That is simply illogical.
PhillyFan
Why as a news organization would you stay in a country when all your people are being tortured?
LACharlie2
Here's an interesting piece from Le Figaro [a conservative French journal]:

Sorry for the long story as there is no url to the English version. The URL in the body of the story is a link to the French original.

===========================

The Hidden Underside Of The War In Iraq


By Georges Malbrunot, in Amman

Translated from Le Figaro (Paris), Apr. 15:

The disappearance of the Iraqi leaders, news that's covered up or truncated, doubts about the post-Saddam era -- this conflict is rich in enigmas

Le Figaro
April 15, 2003

http://irak.figaro.net/operations/20030415...15.FIG0778.html

Saddam's regime has fallen, but the four weeks of the war in Iraq have been marked by many areas of obscurity and "failures" hidden by American political and military officials who, from start to finish, have sought to control the flow of information. On the Iraqi side, the organized self-dissolution of power remains enigmatic.

The first discordant noise in the Anglo-American offensive: at the very beginning of the conflict, a British Tornado fighter jet was shot down by a
volley of Patriot missiles stationed in Kuwait. "The Americans have never identified who was operating the Patriot battery," points out a Western military expert in the Near East. And for good reason, according to a British military source in Kuwait -- the Patriot missile was mistakenly fired by a Kuwaiti soldier. The inquiry undertaken by American headquarters produced no result, so as not to embarrass the Kuwaiti authorities.

On the first day of the war, the Iraqi army fired several missiles at the emirate of Kuwait. During the course of the very violent fighting in
Nasiriyah on March 23, about fifteen American soldiers fell into an Iraqi ambush. During the course of a spectacular commando mission by special forces into the city's hospital several days later, Jessica Lynch was saved, with
lots of publicity. "Headquarters didn't say, however, that seven bodies were found," says the expert. "Their faces had been savagely mutilated. Some of them had had their hands cut off. They were repatriated to the United States
in the greatest silence, without being successfully identified. The morale of the nation was not to be affected at a moment when the war was still far from being won." On Sunday, seven more of these soldiers, who were presumed to be prisoners, were found safe and sound north of Baghdad.

Several days before the Nasiriyah trap, there was a propaganda announcement that announced prematurely the surrender of the 8000 soldiers of the Iraqi 51st Division deployed in Basra, further to the south. This in fact really
took place as the American command had announced. "But instead of taking all the men prisoner, the Americans asked them to return to their barracks, because they thought that other divisions would probably follow them and
surrender," says this expert. "Informed of this by Ba'ath Party envoys, the Baghdad regime then threatened the families of the officers, who, under pressure, went back to fighting the Americans." The United States had underestimated the Iraqi regime's powers of coercion, but this setback was never mentioned.

The affair of the Syrian bus is another example of the American omerta [law of silence] concerning this war. On March 23, five Syrians were killed and ten others wounded in Rutba in a missile attack against their bus, which had left
Baghdad and was supposed to return to Damascus. The State Department presented its condolences and said the shooting was accidental. In reality,
the vehicle was coming from the Syrian capital and was heading for Baghdad. According to an American military source, "the attack was deliberate, and was due to information that had identified among the passengers some members of
the Lebanese Hezbollah who were coming to support Iraqi resistance."

Another mystery of this war: why, of all the diplomatic missions, did the looters target only the French Cultural Center in Baghdad (CCF) and the French ambassador's and the German ambassador's residences, which were certainly the
countries most hostile to this war? Several French diplomatic sources blame the inaction, even the encouragement, of American soldiers witnessing these misdeeds. With regard to the French Cultural Center, Kuwaitis were seen among
the vandals. The American army recruited about a hundred Kuwaiti officers for the war in Iraq and quite a few translators are from the neighboring emirate. Twelve years after the Iraqi pillaging of Kuwait City, the desire for vengeance no doubt remains strong. Three hundred meters away from the French Cultural Center, the office for French interests in Iraq was not, however, the target of vandals: the ocher brick building was discreetly but effectively protected.

The greatest enigma of this war will remain the disappearance of Saddam's faithful during the night of April 8-9. It seems that the regime preferred self-dissolution rather than a humiliating surrender. During the night
curfew, an order, confirmed by CIA intercepts, was given to cease fighting and disperse into the surroundings. It would appear that five thousand men simply vanished, according to an Iraqi businessman close to the regime. Who gave the
order? Saddam Hussein, if he was still alive. If not, the Ba'ath leadership.

On the preceding Monday, intense bombing had targeted a building in the fashionable al-Mansur district where Saddam and his two sons, Uday and Qusay, were thought to be. Since then, there is uncertainty about the fate of the three men. According to this businessman, who is contact with the security forces of the former regime, only Uday was killed in the strike. He was
hiding in a secret house that served as refuge for members of the clan.

Why was there such a surrender, which was far from the hell that the regime had promised American troops? The surprise visit to Moscow a few days before by Condoleezza Rice, George Bush's national security advisor, has inspired
many speculations. Did she perhaps go to Russia to obtain exile for Saddam in exchange for an end to hostilities, since the Russians still had communication channels with Saddam?

In February Yevgeny Primakov, former KGB leader and long a friend of Saddam, went to Baghdad to try to convince the Iraqi leader to give up power. The Turks and the Egyptians had already discreetly attempted the same thing. Later, during the Arab summit in Sharm el Sheikh, the United Arab Emirates broke a taboo. Sheikh Zayed publicly offered exile to Saddam to avoid a
bloodbath for his people. This leader was a longtime personal friend of Saddam's, whose courage and Bedouin pride he admired. In fact, it was Barzan, one of Saddam's half-brothers, who suggested this idea to Sheikh Zayed during a visit to Abu Dhabi. "I cannot do it myself, but if it comes from you, he might listen to you," Barzan explained to his host.

Several days before the war, Saddam called a family council with his two sons, Uday and Qusay, his three half-brothers, Barzan, Watban, and Sabaoui, his personal secretary Abed Hmoud, and Ali Hassan al-Majid, his cousin. Saddam asked Barzan: is it true that you proposed the idea of my exile to avoid war to Sheikh Zayed? Yes, answered Barzan, in glacial silence. Suspecting his half-brother's loyalty, Saddam placed him under house arrest in Qas al-Fares, a palace near the airport. Two weeks later, when American troops took control of the airport before launching the offensive against Baghdad, Barzan fled in a car to Ramadi, sixty miles from the capital, where he owns a farm. It would
take the Americans a week to be informed about the new location of Saddam's half-brother. Barzan is said to have called members of his family who had remained in Europe. He was the object of intense bombing on the night of
April 10-11, and is believed to be dead.

As for Saddam and the fifty centurions who are being sought since that famous night when everything gave way, no one can say where they are. No doubt in the heart of Sunni country, where they may be able to rely on the complicity
of certain tribes. "If Saddam and his cronies do not reappear, alive or dead, within two months, it will be appropriate to consider the possibility of a secret deal with the United States," says one European diplomat.

--
Translated by Mark K. Jensen
Associate Professor of French
Chair, Department of Languages and Literatures
Pacific Lutheran University
Tacoma, WA 98447-0003
Webpage: http://www.plu.edu/~jensenmk/
E-mail: jensenmk@plu.edu
LACharlie2
btw Eason Jordan will be on C-SPAN's Washington Journal 4-16=03 7-10 AM, with repeats. You can even call in and ask questions!!
PhillyFan
What does that have to do with CNN?
ung
QUOTE
Why as a news organization would you stay in a country when all your people are being tortured?  
why not answer my question that saying CNN could have stopped further killing is totally illogical and nonsensical?

and why stay? why does any news organization or journalist go to dangerous assignments? cuz that's where the story is. Doesn't Fox do the same thing?
LACharlie2
The Figaro piece was contributed as a hard-to-get, interesting piece on contemporary historical context - to try to raise the level of these ideological slanging matches.

This morning's C-SPAN interview was quite good. I don't see [along with ung] smearing CNN for not being rah-rah enough. For more history, see William Shirer's Berlin Diary about what it was like being a US reporter in Berlin 1939-1941 [George Kennan was there as a diplomat, too]. Sure, the bad guys try to use you, and it is a constant fight to stay, to find out what is going on, and not to play their propaganda game. No regime is monolithic, and tapping into different groups and conduits can yield a lot of information. [The Berlin example had an incredible case - "Putzi" Hanfstangl, Hitler's foreign press liaison, was the "Information Minister" equivalent [but more likeable], who was told by the pilot of his private plane at a re-fueling stop that they were under orders from Goebbels to wing Putzi out of the plane - he then escaped, defected, and spent the war in DC as FDR's adviser on Hitler.]

You do what you have to do, until it's too much, then you leave.
PhillyFan
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ung:
 
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Why as a news organization would you stay in a country when all your people are being tortured?  
why not answer my question that saying CNN could have stopped further killing is totally illogical and nonsensical?

and why stay? why does any news organization or journalist go to dangerous assignments? cuz that's where the story is. Doesn't Fox do the same thing?
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110003336

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/o...416wed1-16.html

How can you now look back at ANY reporting CNN did in Iraq and say... that is what REALLY happened. Their visits to the hospital, the suffering children. The terrible sanctions on the country... ect ect ect..

There is mention of the 2 brother-in-laws who came back and were killed... CNN knew they were to be killed, did they warn them?

Would CNN not save the lives of the people who worked for them if they had pulled out? If they are gone, and the people no longer work for them... well how do u torture them?

Fact is, when CNN reports from ANY nation that has a dictator, can they be trusted to report the truth now? Or just some watered down version approved by the host nation?
pat125
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PhillyFan:


How can you now look back at ANY reporting CNN did in Iraq and say... that is what REALLY happened.  Their visits to the hospital, the suffering children.  The terrible sanctions on the country... ect ect ect..

You make a good point, Philly Fan. But more importantly, I also do not trust what the President and administration says either. For that reason, I still do not know if going to war with Iraq was the right thing, regardless who was President. Even if the Bush administration chose not to go to war, I wouldn't know if that was the best choice. So the press (ALL of them) and government both need to do a much better job in the credibility department.

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Good, because I have no partisan loyalty. Both parties spew pious rhetoric while playing chess with the rest of the world.
Danimal, I agree with both points. And why we continue to reelect the same clowns who do this is beyond me. :confused: :mad:

[ April 17, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: pat125 ]
ung
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There is mention of the 2 brother-in-laws who came back and were killed... CNN knew they were to be killed, did they warn them?

Would CNN not save the lives of the people who worked for them if they had pulled out? If they are gone, and the people no longer work for them... well how do u torture them?
Philly,

That is beyond ridiculous and fallacious. The 2 brothers-in-law were very well aware of the death threats made against them. It was widely publicized by everyone including CNN at the time. The dumb-asses decided to believe Hussein's lies instead when he lied to them and said he had rescinded the death order. They went back to Iraq and were promptly beheaded.

The threat against the other person, King Hussein of Jordan was in fact relayed to Jordan's Royal Palace. They dealt with it accordingly.

You have to understand that Uday Hussein (being the deranged lunatic that he is) in a single conversation would have said many many things. One never knows whether to think he's just rambling on or to take him seriously.


Your assertion of if CNN had pulled out, it would save their lives...... Ummmmmm... Have you been listening to what was said? Do you understand the words coming out of my mouth? wink

The people being threatened were IRAQI employees and THEIR IRAQI FAMILIES living IN IRAQ. Pulling out of the Baghdad bureau would have changed nothing. What? You think Saddam is gonna let entire families under gov't scrutiny to just pack up and leave? Come on! I know you're smarter than THAT!


so I ask my question (so far unanswered) one more time.(this is my 3rd time asking)

How could CNN, by reporting on the tortures have stopped Saddam from further tortures and deaths?

[ April 17, 2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: ung ]
PhillyFan
So if CNN pulled out and said... they are torturing our people we will not report here... instead of showing the pictures provided to them of the grieving kids in hospitals, due to UN sanctions...

By pulling out and reporting what actually was going on with their people and other people they would have given a perspective of what Sadaam was actually doing and giving facts to back it up. That would not have stopped him, but it would have given a proper perspective of what was going on. CNN is hiding behind the people who worked for them as an excuse not to report it.

I have another question. CNN was kicked out days before the war.... why did they wait till the war was almost over to do this? As the Iraqi army was holding up civilians to be killed and then blaming the US for killings .. CNN's perspective would have shed light into the situation to show that we were not the ones deliberately (sp) killing these people. Show the track record of how they treat people.. ect ect ect. Do any of you doubt that Iraq would place civilians in Govt building to have them killed to make the US look bad?

Honestly, if a story comes from CNN from Syria, Cuba or any other place with a dictatorship... will cnn be believed anymore...
ung
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By pulling out and reporting what actually was going on with their people and other people they would have given a perspective of what Sadaam was actually doing and giving facts to back it up
what are you saying? Everyone already knew (not just from CNN but every other news org) what was happening in Iraq under Saddam. Did anyone NOT know? Are you saying you didn't know?

What "perspective" would have been added by endangering employees' families lives? Would that make you think better of Hussein? Could your impression of him gotten any worse?

Anyway, to answer your other question...

Why did they wait until just before the bombing to kick out CNN?

Simple. Unlike FoxNews, CNN is not a regional news presence(USA market). It is one of the few western news channel available in the mid-east. (and arguably the most respected and recognized) CNN-International (CNN-I) is seen all over the world. (CNN-I is separate from the US-CNN)

As you saw by the desperate attempts of the iraqi info minister to "spin" the events, Baghdad wanted to present its best face forward, especially in the western media. To do that, CNN's presence in Iraq was needed. It didn't need to try so hard with the arab media as they were already pro-Iraq in their coverage.

When things kept getting worse and Baghdad realized they could not get CNN to report the way Saddam wanted them to, they were expelled.

Like it or not, Philly, CNN enjoys a reputation and prestige that FoxNews does not have. And if you don't believe what you see on CNN... well... it's probably the case that you would never have watched CNN anyway. Even before this scandal, you probably mistrusted CNN and believed only in what you saw on Fox. So.... trying to convert you to be a CNN viewer is not in the works as that would be futile.

Suffice it to say that there is comfort in the fact that the left criticizes CNN for being too conservative. and at the ame time the right criticizes CNN for being too liberal. That means CNN is doing its job.
PhillyFan
Well, you didnt answer my question. Why did CNN wait to report of the torture of their employees until the war was almost over... Why would CNN focus on showing civilians deaths without pointing out what ACTUALLY happened to their employees? Thats being objective?
ung
Philly,

your question was already answered in my very first post to this discussion.
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