Today,I went to a catered charity event at a major downtown hotel. The guests in the room above us were having a wedding. The group, I came to find out was Jewish.The women wore pretty dresses with flawless make-up. But the men all dressed alike in these cute black suits They wore black suits, with black brimmed hats and wore long beards.They looked butch and cute. I noticed that this style was worn by both the younger boys as well as the older men. I thought they looked distinguished. What is the tradition behind this? I am just curious, as I know very little about Jewish customs.

[ February 25, 2003, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: BostonSportz ]

BostonSportz, I am really surprised by your lack of exposure to Orthodox Jews, especially since you are so well travelled. I think your language of description borders on anti-Semitism. Since I see a lot of your posts on here today from last night, I'll chalk this up to maybe a drunken night of self talk with little editing. Better choice of words next time I hope.

Shore I never realized you were Jewish. I didn't mean to offend your religion. Shaloam.

Since I can see you're a late arrival by your Member #, I want to say welcome to the "Real World of Outsports" BostonSportz.

Ironically I've probably been to more Jewish weddings than Black ones, even though I'm black.

I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means, but I suspect that there is a lot of variety in Jewish wedding traditions. Orthodox, Conservative and Reform have different traditions and there are probably different variations within each.

I know there are variations in religous tradition within the black communities and assume that carries over into the wedding ceremonies.

Perhaps if you knew more about the tradition and nature of the specific group participating in the wedding you chanced upon, you might come to understand why they were dressed as they were.

Happy posting.

Sportinlife, that is interesting.

In the suburban area of Kansas City where I live, there are quite a lot of Orthodox Jewish people, which was quite a surprise to me when I moved here from Oklahoma.

BostonSportz, I think your choice of words in your first post were somewhat offensive, saying the men were ugly and looked like third world peasants. But shore, you must realize Boston was asking a simple, if naively-expressed question about why the men present themselves according to ancient biblical laws, while the women do not. I don't think he's really anti-semitic.

My understanding is that these men are trying to respect ancient biblical laws that forbid men from cutting their beards. Sometimes Orthodox Jews also grow long locks of hair on on the sides of their head, which is also forbidden from being cut. Most of the Orthodox Jews in this area seem to have a genetic disposition that prevents them from having enough whiskers to grow a good, full, groomable beard, so it turns out looking unruly and messy as you described. However, I don't think this makes the men look "ugly" at all. I think it looks cute on some of them. As for the black suits and wide-brimmed hats, perhaps someone else here can give some input, but I suspect it's more for reasons of tradition than religion.

Of course the ancient laws they are respecting are among the same laws that determine what foods are "kosher", and that give conditions for selling your daughters into slavery, and that say it is punishable by death for a man to touch a woman during her period.

[ February 18, 2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: maxallen ]

Maxallen is right. I am not anti-semetic.

Shore, I welcome you here at Outsports. My question was asked out of curiosity. I did not mean to offend. We have a diverse group here at Outsports of different religions and also atheists and agnostics as well. But we all have one common thread, we are gay men and share a love of sports. I welcome you hear at Outsports regardless of your religion. Please feel free to continue to post here with us here at Outsports. You are welcome here. And once again, welcome to Outsports. I think you will find our discussion board informative as well as entertaining.

I live near a part of Los Angeles (the Fairfax District) that is the historical Jewish area of Los Angeles. So, on Saturdays you'll see the Orthodox Jews walking around a lot. They'll be walking around (because I think either using transportation or electricity is forbidden on the Sabbath) in those black outfits, even when it's 110 degrees out. Yikes!!

I once asked a Jewish friend about the hats/black clothing and he said (remember, this is second-hand from someone who might have been misinformed) that it was because that the look described was of the wealthy merchant class in Poland and that's what was aspired to so the look was adopted. Again, proceed with caution in believing that!

[ February 18, 2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

As several people have said, you probably encountered Orthodox or even ultra-Orthodox Jews, but also probably a particular sect, like Satmar Hasidim. Joseph Lieberman, the Senator from Connecticut and a Democratic candidate for President in 2004, is an Orthodox Jew, but he doesn't dress follow this particular dress style. In fact, none of the Orthodox Jews in Congress, to give one example, are Hasidim. He does, however, observe the kashrut, I think the laws are called.

A suggestion would be to go online and read up on the Jewish faith as it's practiced in America. Many Jews belong to the Conservative or Reform traditions, and wear none of the ritual clothing and follow different, though related, rites, including marriage rites. Also, many Jews are completely secular, so a "Jewish" wedding would hardly be different from a wedding of any other group not following any faith.

I do think the initial question verged on being offensive, and the thread title is misleading and problematic. The "men" (there is no qualification in the thread title) are not "ugly." Perhaps you found their dress distasteful or discomfiting, but there are attractive ultra- Orthodox Jews. Just pay a visit to a predominantly Orthodox area like Crown Heights, Brooklyn, and you'll see what I mean. Perhaps "perceived unkempt" men is a more appropriate description.

And if we can't ask about sensitive topics in sincerity here, aren't we lacking something? :confused: wink

I was wanting to say something similar.

And sometimes the beards can actually ADD to the general appearance!

Hey Shore,
I just thought I would point something out to ya.

Do you realize that you you had the opportunity to educate someone about a religion you are a part of, but instead you simply threw out an accusation about discrimination? How about next time someone asks as a very upfront question about your religion you give then an ANSWER, and not just yell at them for being uniformed.

I shudder to think of your answers to an uninformed straight person asking about your lifestyle with respect to being gay.

Sorry to be harsh, but I'm tired of people screaming discrimination and not even trying to educate people.

At least there were a few other people on this board who were willing to educate the guy, and answer his questions.

My family tree includes numerous rabbis--some Orthodox, some Conservative--so here is some information in response to the questions this thread brings up:

The three broad branches of Judaism are Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform, but there are many, many, many sub-divisions within each of them. The people BostonSportz saw while attending a charity event were definitely Orthodox and were probably "Ultra-Orthodox" (sometimes called "haredi") who tend to isolate themselves from modern society. "Haredi" translates to "black hats" and is often used in a derogatory manner. They could also have been Hasidic Jews, one of the other devisions within the Orthodozx branch. Hasidism was founded in Poland during the 18th century and it focuses on sincere, joyful, passionate prayer, including single-sex, ecstatic dancing, singing,and storytelling to connect with God. Hasidism has splintered into numerous subsets over the years. One of the other large divisions in the Orthodox arena is "Mitnagdim" which translates to "opponents") who focus on a more pure, learned, erudite, critical approach to prayer and God. Are you bored beyond belief yet?

Why do they wear black??? Simply put: they're in mourning for the destruction of the Second Temple (more than 1900 years ago.) Additionally, the clothing--black hats, long coats, etc.--allow them to attach themselves to the old European traditions and form a community unto thmselves.

Why the beard and earlocks ( "peyos" ) That is from Leviticus, I think it's 19:27, that forbids the cutting of hair near the temples.

Bit of trivia: the names of the 5 books of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) are different in Hebrew and many Orthodox know the books as "Beresheet" (In the Beginning,) "Sh'mot" (Names,) "Vayikra" (And He Called,) "BaMidbar" (In the Wilderness,) and "D'varim" (Words.)

All those years in Hebrew school have paid off, after all.

~Adam

Wow, thanks for the bit of education Adam!

Going back to BostonSportz's originaly question, can you offer us any enlightenment as to why the men carry on the traditions of beards and black clothing, while the women (at that wedding) wore modern dresses and makeup? I've noticed the same thing around here; on Saturdays one can often see Orthodox Jewish men walking around in black, but if you see a family out together, only the males are dressed in such a manner, while the females are dressed - well, um - normally.

I think titling the thread "Jewish Weddings/Men are Ugly" is not the most polite way to say whatever one wants to say. It's like calling a whole class of people ugly--Catholics are ugly, Buddhists are ugly, Amish are ugly. Their style of dress may not be your cup of tea, but I don't think one should call them as a group "ugly."

So certainly I can understand someone raising the issue of anti-Semitism... I mean, if someone posted "Gay Weddings/Men are Ugly... why do gay men dress like clones in tight white t-shirts and earrings" I might suspect this person was homophobic.

Re-reading the post, I don't think BostonSportz meant to be offensive... but the subject title is jarring to say the least. Perhaps, "Unusual dress customs of Orthodox Jews" might be less offensive.

Hey MSUBobcat and BostonSportz, I'm not Jewish, not at all. but some of my best friends are. My offensive taken was for the lack of sensitvity on Boston's part, maybe a lack of exposure to other cultures on his part, or maybe just not being thoughtful. I do not feel a need to educate anyone about anything, nor do I feel I ever have to defend my point of view on this site, it's simply for posting and anything beyond that is, as the saying goes, gravy.

Not in the least!

from maxallen:

"why the men carry on the traditions of beard and black clothing while the women wore modern dresses

In part, tradition and tradition alone accounts for this. Also, by remaining in beards and severe, black clothing the men do not focus on personal vanity and, as such, have more time for learning, devotion to prayer, and the performance of the 613 commandments ( "mitzvot" )God issued in the Torah. (And you thought there were only 10 Commandments!!) These 613 are divided into 248 positives (thou shall) and 365 negatives (thou shall not.) As a side point: the 248 are said to correspond to the body organs and sinews while the 365 represent the days of the year. A whole bunch of them can no longer be performed (some include animal sacrifice at the Temple in Jerusalem, for example) and some are not to be performed by women--the positive ones are done by males only, the negatives )thou shall not...) are done by all. Why? Because women are so busy raising children, tending the home, and caring for the man she simply couldn't have the time to perform all those additional commandments. Basically, it's because women were seen (and, in some Orthodox coomunities, are still viewed) as second-class citizens, not worthy of the honor of dressing in black.

Aren't you just dieing to hear about the major divisions within the Conservative branch of Judaism? When I was in Hebrew school, we spent more than half-a-semester (four hours a day) on just identifying those divisions--talk about useless!!

~Adam

Jim Allen: the Fairfax area, huh? Kyle & I used to own a house on Hayworth just south of Beverly Blvd. right by Fairfax. The Saturday parade didn't faze me--I was one of them (though not in the severe black.) It was trhe daily early-morning march to synagogue for Shacharit (morning prayers) and Ma'ariv (evening prayers) at night that got to me, along with the conservatively-dressed children (long-sleeves, heavy shoes even in the dead of summer) while they did "normal" things like playing catch in the street.

~Adam

That would fit the pattern for most male-centered cultures. If the man's primary duty (job) is religious practice, then the woman is expected to stay home and raise kids.

Seems like the more different cultures are, the more same they are. Does that make sense? :confused:

I don't think I could handle learning the details of the Conservative diaspora but I'm curious about how the general divisions of Orthodox, Conservative and Reform came about.

In my genealogical study I've found that a branch of my family may go back to the 15th century in the British Isles. Could there have been Jews in that area then? Which sect would they have been?

I agree with this sentiment. Not jumping on MSUBobcat's wagon - just echoing what he's saying.

It will serve this community a GREAT deal if we can say something in the way of allowing our "friends" here into our worlds.

If you know me, you know I don't tolerate punishing, cruel, derogatory tactics. It's just not appreciated.

Howwever, what better way to "turn on the light" than to write to someone with the information that they OBVIOUSLY do not know?

That can't be any skin off of the back.

THE ONLY STUPID QUESTION IS THE ONE YOU DON'T ASK.

Hey, I've wanted to ask about (among other questions):

*Mormon mating practices (gay and straight). Mormon views on LGBTs in their community and treatment of them in churches;

*How to "work" a Muslim singles party in Bahrain if you don't speak any Tagalog wink ;

*How to tell Palestinians from Israelis;

*The general behavioral practices of Arab guys seeking to date men;

*How to make gay-related jokes among the Burmese;

*Why I have never seen African or Asian Indian men out in bars looking for dates and/or partners;

*The (meaningful) cultural differences to be considered when being razzed and otherwise asked out by an Australian guy online; and,

*The psychological impact of muscles and bodybuilding on people into circuit boys.

...and this is just the short list!

Let's all relax, really get to know one another, and be responsible when and if, in making an error of judgement, we offend. That what apologies are for.

Otherwise, we're just typing pleasantries and sports stats.

[ February 20, 2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

very well put. i agree wholeheartedly, and couldn't have said it any better.

in fact, i bet this entire thread would have died an unnoticed death long ago, had an apology been offered....

i'm glad someone called the tone of the thread title and initial post. ( i would have, but i've been away -- boston winter is getting tedious, and st. barth was calling.)

Bluebird, It looked like you summed it up, and then some. Shaloam.

MSUBobCat, thanks for watching my back and putting that other defensive queen in her place.

from sportinlife:

I'm curious about how the general divisions of Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform came about.

I'll try to be brief, as this subject has engendered lots of commentary and numerous lengthy volumes of (truly) dull scholarship. If you've ever had enough of life & want to die, these are the books that would do the trick.

The basic difference between the three divisions is that the Orthodox believe the Torah was (literally) given by God to Moses, verbatim, while Conservative & Reform Judaism think the Torah and Jewish Law (" halachah ") may be Divinely inspired but were interpreted by people over time. The term Orthodox really came into use during the 19th century, when the Reform and Conservative movements arose. Reform Judaism is the largest denomination in the US (it should be noted that, in Israel, it is called Progressive Judaism) and is based upon the idea that each person has the responsibility to educate themselves about their spiritual practice and not rely on external law. The Torah and Jewish Law are tools but the focus (broadly) is on the writings of the Prophets (interpretations of the Law rather than the Law itself.) The majority of Reform Jews do not adhere to the dietary laws and their religious services are extremely different from the Orthodox. The Conservative movement was a response to the growing Reform movement--Conservatives may not have agreed with all the traditional observance of the Orthodox but found the Reform movement too extreme. Broadly, Conservatives respect many of the traditional rules--the dietary laws, observing Shabbat, performing some (if not all) the daily prayers--but agree with the Reform idea that the Law has its basis in human history and that needs to be reconsidered in every generation. Of course, there is something of a sliding scale of "devoutness" in each of these divisions.

In the belief of full disclosure, I view myself as a Conservative Jew--I keep a Kosher house, attend synagogue on a regular basis, and observe the Sabbath (in my way.) To be precise, I belong to a Reconstructionist synagogue. Generally, we believe that God isn't a Being but is a natural, underlying moral force that creates order. We believe that each generation of Jews has the obligation to keep Judaism alive by "reconstructing' it by reinterpreting practices and words in order to find relavant meaning.

And, to think, I promised to be brief... wink

~Adam

I just want to know how you can keep kosher? This is a serious comment--I like my cheeseburgers way too much.

I found out a couple of years ago that my mother's side might be part Jewish and I was interested in learning more about the faith.

You and John Kerry! (and Lieberman thought he'd be the only jewish candidate...)

I too would have a real problem with a kosher diet -- no stuffed pork chops, cheeseburgers, sour cream and cheddar in my bowl of chili, oysters, lobsters, deviled ham ... hmmmmmm ...

Looks like they roughly parallel Catholic, protestant and progressive churches among christians. Most likely each evolved under the influence of developing scientific thought.

Believe it or not I haven't gotten enough yet. Do you know anything about Jewish history in Britain? That was what I am more interested in. If you know of references or where I could find them that would help.

BTW I use to occasionally seek out kosher food - not out of any religious motive but because it seemed generally healthier. I've returned to fairly indiscriminate omnivore behavior, but still try to stick to a healthy diet.

Bluebird, you never cease to mystify me. Why would you need Tagalog in Bahrain? Are you referring to the Filipino nurses who are over there? Because either English or Arabic would get you much further....

Also, I see you're in Detroit. If you were to hang out in New York City, you could actually find sub-Saharan (Black) African men, Arabs, and East Indians in bars and clubs. In fact, there one particular bar in Jersey City, which has large Black-Caribbean, Latino, and Asian populations, where East Indian and Pakistani men sometimes hang out. Just around the corner is a club where Black and Latino guys party, and some nights it's mostly Filipino.

BTW, I've been cruised here in Chicago several times by very good looking East Indian guys. There are lots of beautiful, very dark-skinned ones hanging around Evanston. The men in Chicago, I have to say, look good, but they're physically larger and heftier, I think, that men on the east coast.

And Wesley Clark too, it seems. Isn't Howard Dean's wife Jewish? And Hillary Clinton also claimed some Jewish ancestry, or was that just posturing?

My favorite potential Jewish first lady was the wild Kitty Dukakis. She was a piece of work, poor thing. I think Kerry should take up his ancestral paternal name, Kohn. John Forbes Kohn sounds utterly American!

Finally, Kerry's wife would be the first First Lady of Brazilian ancestry. I'm not sure what the exact lineage is there, but if she's like many Brazilians, she could even have some African and Native American ancestry, which would make her the first First Lady with (acknowledged?) African and Native American ancestry. Talk about a couple that would represent America!

from sportinlife:

....anything about Jewish history in Britain?

Instead of my digging through some boxes in the garage, I'll ask a friend who teaches Jewish history who is coming to the house this weekend for some sources. He'll rattle them off far faster than I'd be able to find anything in those boxes.

For those who wonder how I can keep kosher (what with cheeseburgers, bacon, and the such in the world) the flip answer is "it's easy." It has been an integral part of who I am since I re-made a committment to keeping kosher and, as such, don't have to think about it. What's tricky is that my longtime partner, Kyle O'Toole, isn't Jewish and does not keep kosher, so our refrigerator has interesting compartments!

~Adam

1/Hey, that's a stellar compliment coming from someone as erudite as yourself! Thank you very, very much - the ability to mystify perpetually has GOT to be a good thing!

2/I didn't know about Filipino nurses, specifically - although I know that there is a large Filipino population there.

3/NEWSBREAK NEWSBREAK - just in: In the last 48 hours, I met a couple East Indian guys who were family. Oh, and BTW, all three of them were OUTTA THIS WORLD (Papadi chat, anyone eek! ? Darjeeling ?).


FYI: Former Secretary of State Albright was confirmed to have Jewish ancestry.


Chicago and Evanston: check.

Would you list some of the NY/NJ that come to mind?


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Edited to consolidate posts - Outsports moderator]

[ February 25, 2003, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: m1 ]

I grew up in such a Catholic area that I had no knowledge of Judaism before I went to college. There I had many a lesson on the subjects Adam has so eruditely (I hope that's a word) educated us on. I had a good friend in college who was Reform, and when she was challenged on that stance by a Conservative friend replied "I like bacon cheeseburgers too much to keep kosher." I also had another friend (Reform) who hated his step-mother (Conservative) so much for throwing out all his late mother's possessions that he used to purposely make bacon and ham sandwiches on her dishes (both sets) just to drive her crazy. He doesn't see his Dad and Stepmom much anymore.

On a more serious note, I worked with an Orthodox man at my last job - he single-handedly kept our computer system operational, even though it once meant a 7 mile walk home after sundown on a Friday night in winter. He gave us some good lessons on how to keep Kosher but still manage one's work schedule, and once I found out Foster's Lager was kosher, I realized it probably wasn't that bad. Because he could never participate in our company food-fests (e.g., birthday parties) we had a "I like Mark" day where we ordered in food from the only kosher Chinese restaurant in the DC area, and served it all on paper plates, using plastic utensils. It was a great way to show our appreciation, although I don't know how environmentally-friendly it was .

[ February 21, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: CPT_Doom ]

Now, THAT'S friendship!

As one who's spent more time than I care to think about trying to figure out what the hell you're trying to say (and we won't even go in to your thread titles), no, that is NOT a good thing. At all. Hint: If you're wondering why people don't understand you (see: the blacks in politics/reparations thread) and why some of your threads have died without a reply, please remember that we can't read your mind. Just because it's clear to YOU doesn't mean it's clear to US.

Sorry if that's harsh, but it was a topic of conversation at the Convention.

Adam, doesn't the mere fact that you and Kyle mix food in the fridge violate kosher laws?

On Sunday, when the Convention moved to WeHo Park, they were having Little League tryouts for Jewish boys. Once the jokes about how a Jewish Sports Hall of Fame would be able to fit in to a hallway closet etc. ended, it was fun to see the kids with temple curls and all hitting the heck out of the ball. Not a sight you see every day, that's for sure. Here's a website about Jews in sports.

I did a Google search on Jews in Britain and it's mostly citations about articles/books that people have written. I know that the one Premiership team, Tottenham Hotspur, are known as "the Jewish team". They are in a historically Jewish area of London and until recently, their owner was Jewish. There's been nasty incidents, sadly: Ian Walker doing the "Heil Hitler" salute at Spurs White Hart Lane ground was particularly bad.

Thanks Jim. And thank GOD I'm not the only one. I'm still trying to figure out why he would need to know how to pick up a Tagalog-speaking Filipino at a Muslim singles party in Bahrain. Bluebird tends to drop these odd little tidbits and often incorrect or contradictory statements with no further explanation, even when asked for an explanation in subsequent posts. Sorry, I know we're not supposed to bash individuals here, but me thinks Bluebird is one odd bird.

Also northwest suburbs, especially Schaumburg (and there's only one gay bar in that part of the metro area, so it tends to draw everyone who isn't in the mood to travel to the city that night).

I've noticed two sort of parallel South Asian populations in the Chicago area: immigrants who work in industrial or service-sector jobs (including restaurants and, pardon the stereotype, convenience stores), and H-1B visa tech workers, especially engineers and programmers (who tend to concentrate near large tech employers ... and some of whom become more permanent residents). I once worked at a small company with large numbers from both categories, and the two didn't interact much ... but then, the other factory workers and the other "techies" didn't mix much with each other either. The lunchroom had a semi-permanent curry smell (which I didn't mind at all).

from Jim Allen:

Adam, doesn't the mere fact that you and Kyle mix food in the fridge violate Kosher laws.

Technically, yes. However (and there's always a however) the foods that are strictly non-kosher are in one area, the strictly kosher foods in another, and they are separated by "neutral" foods (produce, Mother's brand of margarine, jam.) And, we keep the fridge cleaner than just about any other people I know. Odd point: there are even some Orthodox Jews who won't buy milk unless it comes from "strictly kosher" cows--cows reared on farms owned and run by people who keep kosher. That is just one of the reasons I'm not Orthodox!

~Adam

[quote]Jim Allen:
[QUOTE]
I did a Google search on Jews in Britain and it's mostly citations about articles/books that people have written. I know that the one Premiership team, Tottenham Hotspur, are known as \"the Jewish team\". They are in a historically Jewish area of London and until recently, their owner was Jewish. There's been nasty incidents, sadly: Ian Walker doing the \"Heil Hitler\" salute at Spurs White Hart Lane ground was particularly bad. [/quote]Jews in Britain: a fascinating topic. Okay, I'm drawing on very old Jewish history studies here (cf. Abram Sachar's book on the history of the Jewish people, though it may be somewhat out of date nowadays), but I believe there were some Jews in Britain as far back as the Roman period, but most came during and after the Norman Invasion (1066). Edward I (or was it II?) expelled the Jews in 1290. Many went to the Low Countries, returned to France, or headed to the various German principalities. But someone with training in this area should definitely correct me if I've got things wrong.

Interestingly, one of Britain's greatest statesman was Jewish: Benjamin Disraeli, the reformist conservative politician, novelist and Prime Minister and later Lord Beaconsfield, who led the country intermittently from 1868 to about 1880 or so. The man wrote about 4-5 novels, I believe, while sitting in Parliament! The battles between Disraeli and William Gladstone of the Liberal Party were among my favorite bits in British history courses!

I also think British history can tell of many famous Jewish people, including economists David Ricardo and Karl Marx, the Beerbohm family, writers Siegfried Sassoon and Harold Pinter, author Leonard Woolf, composer Benjamin Frankel, and painter Lucian Freud.

Okay, time to go out at catch a movie!

*Was the conversation about MY threads, or about threads in general?

- - - - -

You are not being harsh, especially when you're stating what you feel is the truth in a way that is free of condescension.

- - - - -

Nevertheless, please keep in mind several truths:

*I am not you, and you are not me.

*There is NO WAY that we are going to think alike (We don't even eat the same food!).

*We all have come to this community for different reasons; and, most likely, with slightly different agendas.

*I, as a member of this community, am not concerned that EVERY MEMBER "understand" EVERY SINGLE THREAD I create. For the most part (enough to satisfy ME), my thoughts/threads are very much corroborated, enough for me to continue posting.

*If you have a question about something I write (because something in particular bothers you that much), then ask me what I meant. I'll respond, in most cases.

- - - - -

Nevertheless, it has not been communicated to me that what I do on this Board is unappreciated, hurtful, or otherwise demeaning.

So - a few things don't "fit" in your mind and/or you don't agree with me. Is that cause for alarm?

Hey, I post on racial issues. Don't you think I know that that's risky, somewhat dangerous, and cause for raised eyebrows?

I am not looking for total and complete agreement. In fact, the only thing I really care about is that my person doesn't get struck down for something I said, like I might in a heterosexual group.

- - - - -

As long as this "confusion" is a problem, I plan to be open to deal with it, as one (1) member who is speaking FOR MYSELF.

- Blue

[ February 22, 2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

Fantomas, thanks for the info re: Jews in Britain.

Bluebird, YOUR posts were a topic of convo at the Convention. It has nothing to with WHAT you are write but HOW you write it. You don't convey what you're trying to say very well sometimes. Just look at the Black politicians thread. A totally confusing thread title, a very poor choice of text from the article to highlight and what happens? People were confused about what you were trying to get across, you got a major fact wrong (the amount of $ to go for reps), you snapped at someone who misunderstood you and you had to explain at least twice what your point was. We can't see you, we don't know you and we can only go on what you write. It's YOUR job to make your point clearly, not for us to have to read something 3 times to get what you are going on about.

We return you to regularly scheduled topic.

[ February 22, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

regarding the fascination of jews who are orthodox, conservative and reconstructionist, I can completely relate. I have always admired the manner in which orthodox jews wear the clothes. i.e., even here in Arizona, we have a visible community of orthodox jews, and I am always amazed they wear their clothes during our summers. (125 degrees many days.) yet I have a question about a man I saw just yesterday:

this gentleman was bearded, had the earlocks, and wore a yarmuckle. I could tell he was wearing the traditional garment under his shirt, that has the long strings hanging off. (forgive me, I have forgotten the proper term for it.) however, he was wearing jeans and a more casual shirt. I would even venture to say he was wearing sneakers. how could this be? I understand there are as many variations as there are blades of grass, but this seemed very contradictory to me.

in addition, I have a comment/question: isn't it true that orthodox jewish women shave their heads? I remember learning about this many years ago, but I have since forgotten the details.

btw. all that I have read here in terms of education about the practices of jews has been nothing short of wonderful. I would love someday to enjoy a jewish wedding -- I have always wished I were jewish, which I realize now was part of a wanting to belong somewhere. thanks adam.

OKAY, second edit: regarding jews in britain -- there is a wonderful documentary that has been mentioned here on the boards somewhere called "into the arms of strangers" about the saving of thousands, if not millions of jewish children during ww2 having been sent to strangers in england to live with during the war. I don't recall specifically any facts about how many of those young children were with their adoptive parents after the war, yet I'm sure there were tragically too many.

[ February 22, 2003, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: smrobbins65 ]

Thansk for the recommendations. I will look for Abram Leon Sachar's The History of The Jews (1930) at the library.

I was able to find support for what you say about British Jewish history on The Virtual Jewish History Tour - England. Fascinating.

I knew that Jewish people have always been disliked as moneylenders but was not aware of how ingrained the connection has been.

Oddly both Christians and Muslims consider "usury" (the lending of money to be repaid with interest) as sinful, yet other ethnic groups as well as certain christian sects are well-known as entrepreneurs: the Indians in Uganda, the Chinese in southeast asia and the south seas, Quakers in the USA are just a few.

The practice seems most common in situations where a people need a trusted disinterested party to handle representative goods and services (i.e. money). Though I don't think that moneyhandling or lending is sinful, money usage often is, and noone can resist the corruption indefinitely IMO. It's management has to come under the same controls as anything else in society. I think our democacy too often abdicates its control to a nebulous "free market".

My personal interest in Jewish history is specific and genealogical. If you have any other good leads I would welcome them.

[ February 22, 2003, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

from smrobbins65:


I could tell he was wearing the traditional garment under his shirt that has the long strings hanging off...however he was wearing jeans and a more casual shirt. I would venture to say he was wearing sneakers. How can this be?

Where to begin, where to begin??? wink

The fringed shirt is based in Jewish Law--the Book of Numbers--states Jews must wear fringes ( tzitzit ) at a garment's corners to remember God & the Commandments. That's the basis of the prayer shawl ( tallis ) worn in synagogue and the small tallit (called tallit katan ) you saw is worn by most Orthodox men under their clothes. These days, most tuck the tzitzit into their pants; traditionally they are worn out.

Women shaving their heads: Following marriage, some Orthodox women (fewer and fewer as the years go by) do shave their heads in accordance with the Law (also in Numbers) that forbids a woman from leaving her hair uncovered in the presence of a man other than her husband. Her hair is such a great temptaion, no man who sees her could focus on the important things--prayer and study. (You know how men are.) She can, however, wear a traditional wig ( sheitel .) These days, many just wear scarves. My mother did shave her head and wore a wig. In '92 she was diagnosed with cancer and when her oncologist recommended chemotherapy--and told mom she would lose her hair--mom whipped off her wig and said "Like this??" Maybe you had to be there, but it cracked me up! Think of the chador worn by women in many Moslem nations or the burkha imposed by the Taliban or even the nun's habit. Covering a woman is a fairly common religious practice.

Sneakers on the Orthodox is a lot more common than you would imagine. In fact, during the High Holidays, leather shoes are forbidden because thhe were thought too comfortable during the days of yore (during the High Holidays, one should not be comfortable...and, back then, even the wealty would go to synagogue barefoot) and today, many Orthodox wear sneakers (without any leather adornments) to prayers. As for the rest of his attire (casual shirt, etc.) it is a sliding scale--though I would bet he was relatively young.

A point I find interesting has to do with the ceremonial headcover, the yarmulka or kippah . It is worn out of custom rather than Jewish Law. Nowhere is it written that the head must be covered. It probably derived from covering one's head in the presence of royalty--God is the King of Kings, the Always Present Holy One (his official title in the Talmud)--so Jews started wearing the headcover in His presence.

I think I covered everything you asked about.

~Adam

One small note: when my late grandfather was in his teen years, he and some other Black men were sometimes employed as shabbas goys, which I assume means that they would do physical things that some of the Orthodox Jews could not on the Sabbath. Is this still common?

[I always lose words when IE cycles to load the javascript!]

[ February 23, 2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

This gets more interesting every day.

Adam wrote:

LOL - if you're not careful you're going to perpetuate a myth about a \"jewish\" sense of humor, guess it's something all oppressed people need.

fantomas:

I've noticed our religiously conservative jewish neighbors order a LOT of bottled water (more than they could possibly drink). I've often wondered if that has to do with some religious restriction. I've also read that religious israeli's often have certain chores performed regularly by non-jewish arab-israelis during certain holy periods.

[ February 23, 2003, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

Sign me up! I've been looking for a Christian church that would entertain such a concept, but I guess it doesn't really work with the Trinity thing.

Adam, this stuff is fascinating, thanks for sharing your expertise with us. Actually, a couple of local Reform temples offer a six-hour "Taste of Judaism" led by a Rabbi, I'll definitely look into it. (And no, it's not a kosher buffet... )

[ February 25, 2003, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: m1 ]

Very interesting and educational thread here, despite getting sidetracked occasionally.

A Jewish friend (who is not particularly religious) often laments to me that most Jewish men nowadays are much more likely to marry non-Jewish women (she calls them 'shiksas'...not sure of spelling). She says the percentage is up around 85%, at least in Canada. I don't know where she got that figure, nor has she offered a satisfactory explanation as to why this is the case. Perhaps someone else can explain?

The same friend insists that being Jewish is a 'nationality' rather than a 'religion'. She was born in Russia, so to me that makes her nationality Russian, although she is now a Canadian citizen. Since Jews come from many different nations and speak different languages, I have trouble understanding how she can say they all share the same nationality. It could be that she just has a different interpretation of the word. But to me, this is analogous to saying that as a Christian, I have the same nationality as all other Christians.

BTW Adam, here's a couple of questions you can probably best answer. Is it true that many Reform rabbis will now perform and recognize same-sex marriages? Also, do the Conservative and Orthodox denominations have any 'official' stand on homosexuality?

Now that's an interesting notion. Perhaps a reference to the biblical Israel which would theoretically be a nation for Jews designated by God - not necessarily a religion or geographical region but a people or nationality.

Fantom - exactly what happened to Kitty D. anyway?-- she was kind of like Betty Ford (well, not only in the most obvious way ) - she basically told it like it is.

Kerry's wife was married to the late Sen John Heinz -- very class act. Geez, I vowed to stay away for this thread but you suckered me in with the Kitty D post.

Going on about?

Anyway, look: either you want to participate in the thread or you don't.

OK, that thread was not entirely logical, setting out A to B, B to C, and so forth. I didn't set out my connections out front, therefore I take responsibility for (possible) confusions.

And you're correct: we cannot see each other, we aren't able to know who (read: length of time as a member) is going to respond, etc., etc., etc.

That's the cost of doing business on a message board.

You're describing one (1) thread. I post a lot of threads, and can understand if a few things get lost in the translation.

I am certain that, for the most part, my posts are crystal clear, logical, and engaging.